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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers

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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
    Posted: 05-Sep-2015 at 13:39
Originally posted by andre

Originally posted by Lion crest

Originally posted by Catlion

Yeah, and the most astonishing is that Prime's viewpoint on bear's fighting is plainly confirmed: "by frequent affectionate hugs...". So this is the usual way plantigrades fight and not by throwing strikes as defended by bear-fans since Lairwebb times.

It seems that, against a lion, bear is even more disappoting than tiger, although the bear will usually defeat the tiger.



I think its key too that they gave a long pause between the tiger and bear, the lion was able to catch its breath regain stamina to take on the bear.  Multiple accounts seem to show this, yeah bears hug as a fighting technique. I remember Beatty saying as well, that the bear drops its head to protect it, the lion moves it out of the way, but the tiger leaves its head open to being hit.




For those who haven't seen this either and had trouble believing it...here is the actual newspaper pic showing the lion did beat a 1000lb tiger.


(1949)

 Many people have had a hard time believing the lion had killed a 1000lb tiger, but here
is the undisputed proof on this account, with the actual newspaper pic.

e3b5b711551147ed8b0cdf4f3148430f_r.jpg?1

1000-Pound Circus Tiger Loses Fight With Lion NEW BEDFORD, Mass., June 2 (/F>—The lion is still king. When the Biller Brothers circus moved on to its next stop today it left behind the remains of a 1000- pound tiger. The tiger was killed last night in a savage battle with a lion.
I still mis the acounts that many lions,not mountain lions ,lost their live in battle with grizlys in mexico and california during 1900 -1920.and the acounts of famous russian hunters like astinov that brown bears scare of off tigers very often in some cases the tiger got slaugtered very easy .the acounts are there well known in europe, unknown in america perhaps .off course a big brown can kill any cat
 


Andre , I personally do not have a hard time believing the lion king had killed a 1000lb tiger . A remarkable find by you I must say. 
Your picture of the tiger however is white and blank and when I click on it there is no image. Also, would you be able to get a readable snap of that page you sent a link for? That article is hardly readable from the link you posted. I am not even able to make out just where that text for this lion - tiger encounter is.  

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2015 at 13:40
This forum is fascinating and thrilling . Turns out I am learning more about tigers and lions and their fights and respective  abilities. I have not found any facts about encounters between lions and bears. But obviously  from what I read above it is the lion who defeats the bear .  Any sources?

It  does appear as if this forum is determined on proving how a tiger is a weakling and that any outcomes of the tiger defeating a lion have been a fluke and exceptionable. Obviously Prime's posts are the most splendid,  comprehensive and insulting in showing this.

Not only has a Tiger defeated a Lion , but when the tiger has won it has been no exceptional or scanty result . And it has happened more than 'exceptional' or 'scanty.' 


1 . My other find ......A famous tiger called Gunga (or as he is referred to in other texts Junglar) , who according to historical records was owned by a King of someplace called Oude. This tiger apparently killed thirty lions , and another when he was moved to the zoological gardens in London.

Of course I would want to find out if this was fabricated . Because one single tiger defeating 31 lions defies  that 'established' figure of a lion as winning over a tiger 7 or 8 times out of 10 as SmartBrain put it . 
And after some investigating I have found an account of this tiger mentioned in a book by John Hampden Porter called Wild beasts ; a study of the characters and habits of the elephant , lion , leopard , panther , jaguar , tiger , puma , wolf and grizzly bear . 

Here is the page: 


Interestingly there is some clip of Gunga or Jungler, called Junglar, The Fighting Tiger of The Late King of Oude.'

I highlight 'fighting' in bold because it is believed lions are better fighters than tigers, and that tigers don't do as much fighting as lions to defend territory and fight off intruders/ other predators. Just because tigers are solitary animal does not make them poor fighters. 

The text speaks of Junglar's scars that he has got from many a hard-fought battles . Possibly with lions? The Wild beasts book does say that Junglar fought off 30 lions and another when he was moved.







If Prime's art of a lion winning a fight over a tiger is true then I am confident Gunga was no work of fantasy . 


2.  
Originally posted by SmartBrain

From what i read i understand that if are 10 fights between Lions and Tigers 7-8 are won by Lion .
A lot of normal people thinks that tiger is bigger than lion but this is not true if you will serach you will leran that lion aare at least as large as tigers or bigger .
Lion is king of beats and dererved that position .
I understand good or is sometinhg worng from that i say ?


SmartBrain what is true is that the bigger Siberian and Bengal tigers are bigger than the biggest lions. Not all lions are huger than tigers.  Lions are taller yes . The tigers that are smaller than lions are the Sumatran , Indo-Chinese and Malayan. So your statement is right and false.




Edited by Tigris - 05-Sep-2015 at 15:11
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2015 at 16:19
Tigris: '' Obviously Prime's posts are the most splendid, comprehensive and insulting in showing this.''

As per the Coc...if you have a problem with another member's post report it to the staff.

If you don't your merely supporting the potential for a flame war or censure yourself. Consider that as friendly advice. Iow. heed and believe.

This sub has had numerous warnings reference keeping the personalities out of it. If I have to give it one more...I wont even bother..It will simply go away.

Period.
CV
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Sep-2015 at 18:09
As has also been pointed out prevoiusly..

1, Lions & tigers are infact, remarkably similar morphology-wise.
2, Lions & tigers both show a large size variability which overlaps their specific differences..
3, Lions & tigers can be trained.. to do circus perfomances, or fight.. just like humans..

Obviously a trained & game athlete, whether feline, or human, is most likely to be successful
- esp' if matched against an opponent who has not had the benefit of such training..

The natural advantages of the lion, while evident - as noted - may well be trumped by specific
experience &/or training, if employed by such a capable tiger - which is essentially physically equal..

This is not like a housecat vs rat contest, the outcome of which is certain..
Be Modest In Thyself..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2015 at 13:56
Centrix Vigilis , I am not here to start any flame war . Not sure though what exactly you meant by the word censure because I am also entitled to my opinions on here  and I believe I have been amicable with both my fact presentation and selection of words. 

Anyhow, I read your warning and have taken your friendly advice. 






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2015 at 14:08
And as for Junglar the tiger , my rationale is that he wasn't pitted against unathletic, incapable or untrained lions .  I could also have speculated that these tigers (and tigresses) that lost to lions were unskilled in fighting and unathletic . But I ruled that out , with the exception being the victory ( or victories) of a male lion over a female tiger because that is not an equal duel. 

I may have misinterpreted this wrong but if the 'housecat versus rat' was a metaphor for Junglar the tiger versus 31 incapable to fight lions,  then it does not sound right as these lions would then be the rat and Junglar would be the housecat. Perhaps I may have deciphered it wrong. 









Edited by Tigris - 09-Sep-2015 at 19:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2015 at 15:14
Originally posted by Tigris

<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4;">Centrix Vigilis , I am not here to start any flame war . Not sure though what exactly you meant by the word censure because I am also entitled to my opinions on here  and I believe I have been amicable with both my fact presentation and selection of words. </span>
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18.6667px;">Anyhow, I read your warning and have taken your friendly advice. </span>
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18.6667px;"></span>
<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18.6667px;"></span>


You are 'entitled' to what the CoC allows you say in either opinion or declarative form to include facts.

As to amicability...in particular yours? that's subjective. I would ntl tend to agree with you to date. Keep that up the personalities out and you'll do fine.



Censure means... you don't obey those guidelines-rules in the Coc or advice from a staff member...your gone.

This is not a democracy.

It's that simple.

Carry on.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2015 at 16:17
That's fine CV and glad to know its not a democracy. As I said friendly advice has been taken. However I disagree that my amicability is subjective. 

Since you did say that if I have a problem with a member then to report it to staff . Well may I ask you are words like  'f**king stupid cowardly people' acceptable to you on here ? Perhaps you missed reading these words but I certainly hope they aren't allowed in the Coc. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Sep-2015 at 18:25
Originally posted by Tigris

That's fine CV and glad to know its not a democracy. As I said friendly advice has been taken. However I disagree that my amicability is subjective. 
Since you did say that if I have a problem with a member then to report it to staff . Well may I ask you are words like  'f**king stupid cowardly people' acceptable to you on here ? Perhaps you missed reading these words but I certainly hope they aren't allowed in the Coc. 


Ref. 1. it remains subjective as it remains reviewable by staff. as to it's and your conduct-participation-value as a member period. This is non arguable.

Ref. 2. The above quote. Find it and report it's location and author by pm'..as per the Coc. Do not report it in the open forum. If you had read and agreed to the Coc..as evidenced by your current acceptance and active membership...you already know this.

This also is non arguable.




This thread is closed. Pending review. The owner-administrator Red Clay reserves the right to reopen it if he chooses.

Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 07-Sep-2015 at 22:26
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

S. T. Friedman


Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2015 at 07:25
Lets everyone settle down. CV is just trying to keep things casual.

Thread is unlocked, but we will be watching it.
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2015 at 07:47
Carnivora forum is the best example of a democratic regime.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2015 at 15:59
Is Carnivora the best example of a democracy because it is biased towards the tiger?
Well I do not participate in the beliefs and notions of people from the Democratic Regime of Carnivora.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Sep-2015 at 17:41
No, the problem is not to be biased but to ban someone forever like me for just posting something on the lines defended in this forum.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 18:31
It is a curious circumstance that the 'personality' attributes accorded by human observers of the big cats
( in the wild, & in circus perfomances) viz, Lions being upfront, forthright bolshy/pushy & Tigers being
'sneaky & treacherous' reflects their natural living circumstances.

Yet this seems to be strangely mirrored by the emotive advocacy put up by partisan fans of these beasts
as shown in this thread, & similar threads on other sites..

The resort to unscientific denigration which then degenerates into personality conflict/abuse/bannings
is perhaps a subject for another thread, or a psychology/sociology thesis.. &  its too funny, really.. IMO..


Be Modest In Thyself..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 20:57
Originally posted by J.A.W.

It is a curious circumstance that the 'personality' attributes accorded by human observers of the big cats
( in the wild, & in circus perfomances) viz, Lions being upfront, forthright bolshy/pushy & Tigers being
'sneaky & treacherous' reflects their natural living circumstances.

Yet this seems to be strangely mirrored by the emotive advocacy put up by partisan fans of these beasts
as shown in this thread, & similar threads on other sites..

The resort to unscientific denigration which then degenerates into personality conflict/abuse/bannings
is perhaps a subject for another thread, or a psychology/sociology thesis.. &  its too funny, really.. IMO..



This group of partisan fans includes you also J.A.W. , and funnily enough you are also a subject for a psychology or sociology thesis . You obviously have been enjoying the abuse and trolling Prime has been doing on other forums . He was recently blocked on Wikipedia AND numerous other sites.  




Edited by Kratos - 15-Oct-2015 at 21:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 21:09
The 5 animal styles of Kung Fu start with the style of the 'sneaky and treacherous'  Tiger , and involves direct attacks with brute force . I note nothing that says this style of martial art is carried out sneakily.

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/daily/traditional-martial-arts-training/kung-fu/the-5-kung-fu-animal-styles-of-the-chinese-martial-arts/

Kung Fu Animal Style #1: Tiger

Popularity: high (for tiger), rare (for black tiger)
Shaolin saying: “Tiger strengthens the bones.”
Characteristics: strength, agility; considered one of the two most powerful animals in Chinese astrology
Strategy: tends to charge the opponent and attack directly with brute force, uses circular arm movements to overwhelm the enemy, relies on the arms but occasionally uses low kicks
Targets: any part of the body, especially those that react to tearing techniques
Physical requirements: relaxed muscles, speed, solid build, ability to adopt a strong stance and quickly change to another stance
Training: push-ups, sit-ups, calisthenics, sparring, chi-development exercises
Trademark: tiger claw, an open-hand grabbing and striking weapon formed by spreading the thumb and fingers, then bending them slightly
In legend: “It offers the power to shake the earth and to be the authoritative king of its lair,” kung fu master Rob Moses says.


There is no primary animal martial art based on the bolshy/pushy lion.   I believe there is a secondary martial art that derives from the lion . The main one is after the tiger. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 21:18
You calling the tiger sneaky and treacherous is your moniker for the tiger  J.A.W. 

The arm and occasional leg strikes in Tiger Kung Fu style are done in a way that reflects on how the tiger strikes in actuality and in its natural living habitat.




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2015 at 21:20
Enuff is enuff. Over and over I have stated keep personalities out of this subject. Keep others and what they have or have not done, on other venues, out of this subject matter.

This thread was and is long overdo for an enema. Which is to say closure. And that's what it is...CLOSED.

Both of you need to go elsewhere if this back and forth sniping over Lions and Tigers remains your primary focus.

Otherwise, as I value you both AND BELIEVE YOU HAVE MUCH TO OFFER...find another thread and contribute there as much if not more than you have here.

End of story.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2015 at 08:06
After a request from Prime, this thread is open again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2015 at 15:48
Thanks Red clay...

Like I was saying, this thread shouldnt be closed just because of a A repeative spammer/hacker and multi/account person/pckts doesnt want the truth to grow...as its just his plot to sabotage the thread to either hack it to shut it down, or if that fails, play the good-poster bad poster in order to get the thread shut down by switching his motives in making out the good guys to be the bad...or atleast the nutruel ones. 

He doesn't have a single caring bone in his body for any type of conservation for either animal, as shown on his mike rodriguez account, he wishes death upoun lions unanimously, this tactics of switching the question upon me an or others is just a games tactics...like saying how many have I worked with, how many I saved, and donated to conservation...its simple, I dont/didnt...I dont pretend I do, I am against it, but that doesnt mean I have to jump in front of every hunters way to make a point...again the difference is, pretending, much like he has every fake and phoney lie, how he...adores lions, how he was born a leo, how he thinks they should be saved, all things comdedical as if the thousands of things he has written ill'y on the web will just vanish.

Take his last and pretty much only source that has a effect on the tigers behalf, aka King of oudes fighting tiger, that same tiger jungla/gunga is the same tiger that killed the lion in london, aka the same lion tiger conflict charles darwin cited, and the same tiger owned by charles jamrach who he bought from the King of oude, as stated here:

Charles Jamrach moved to London and took over that branch of the business after his father's death in circa 1840

 A fine, full-grown Bengal tiger was deposited, in his rough wooden cage, on this very spot at the gates, having just been delivered from a ship in the docks. The lair at the back was being prepared for his reception, when, the attention of Mr. Jamrach and his merry men being otherwise engaged, Tigris regalis set his hindquarters against the back of his temporary receptacle, and, using all his strength, managed to burst out the boards12. Then he quietly trotted out, and down the main street. The sudden appearance of a full- sized tiger at midday on the pavement of Ratcliff-
 
There are many things bought at the sale of the effects of the late king of Oude, an enthusiastic old gentleman whose allowance from the British Government was a lac of rupees a month, and who managed to spend it all, and more than all, on curiosities and works of art, so that his funeral was followed by a sale on behalf of his creditors11

The initial fight happened in 1850s, pckts source is written about half a century later via:

C. Scribner's sons, 1894By John Hampden Porter


In the same time frame 1850's memoir ~ Actually acquainted with the animals of the king of oude:

Sorry but the story from the officials, people who met the King (said the king only had 2 or 3 lions/as asiatic lions were still rare at the time) the years line up perfectly with what charles darwins study of that fight, a following paper of two, stated the lion was old past his prime and toothless, while the other say the tiger was 1 years old (a 1 year old tiger killing 30+ lions is hilarious), others state full grown, no articles of the time attribute to tigers fighting lions, just of decades later from the single incident was repeated by two sources that the tiger killed 31 lions (un-supported by any original source of its time) and killed 1 more while being transferred (supported by charles jamrachs incident who jamrach nick named the tiger Nana-sahib the tiger who killed a jaguar, lion and almost the small boy.) Over time these storys change and are manipulated to a point it evolves into something else entirely, much like the lion vs bear fight parnell vs ramadan, no original articles at the time it happened stated the bear killed the lion, only decades and centurys later every article and book cited how the grizzly killed the lion like a cat would a rat, (even though all the originals state the lion stalemated the bear) the same with jungla and 31 lions, the tiger was credited by the King and people who actually saw that specific tiger to be a well known buffalo fighter (hence the title fighting tiger) //  and tiger killer, (again people who actually saw the tiger) not people decades later writing un-supported statements, who never was there, never saw the fights, and have no alibies to against the mountain of evidence that mention the specifics.

Anyways, I have little to no time for the subject, just noticed that the thread was locked and in case anyone wanted to grow the subject, people can still have a chance to contribute, again...this is a VS match up thread, not a conservation thread, hence take those else where, this is also a hypothetical and historical thread, not a betting match set up for the future...hence any degree of substance is useful historically to try and answer the question no matter how un-pleasent, the documents happened already, its in the past, its done already, nothing else is getting hurt re-reading them, in any case knowing more of the past can better help the future, which is conservation 101. Anyways again, sorry I wont be of much help just yet, still pretty busy...but read through the latest post starfox aka lioncrest posted on his site of the chronological order accounts, and about peter them...doesnt bother me, again the pages of shady opinions peter and his groupies write of anti-lion support will still never be published of anywalks of science literature and be passed on universally, but...if we gather enough information on the subject (which we are almost there) we can combine all of it into a nice little book which would probably turn out to be the worlds greatest answer toward the mediocre or just low leveld compilement of any source has provided so far. As for peter and pckts, on a historical term, what do they have that matches just this:




download




If we take out the text (which can be re-edited, re-done, and manipulated in this era) and, (which is what mainly 90% of all science via archaeologist and other scientist have done on the past during or before litature) what?...History, do the anti-lion and pro-tiger community such as wildfact and yuku or youtube lot, have to compare to just that small contribution? Little to almost nothing...and thats just a simple put together, theres still like 50 I forgot to put in it as some are missing, a better one will have the years in chronological order, the makers name and also the location, since its not all one culture, its actually over 30 cultures who have produced these artifacts from the 6th century to the 20th, in almost every century there is one portraying a lion defeating a tiger...that catagorie is true history, and when it comes down to the truth and comparisons of defaulting lies/truth and manipulation, theres absolutely nothing anyone can do to erase the truth from history. Science does not take sides, maybe human emotion does, but science is, what it is.

As for lion crest, you shouldnt slow down the accounts/experts, you should do all of them, not just male vs male, and not just death accounts, along with the experts, sorry wont go back to yuku it would blemish my honor of have been banned from there...but if you make a forum else where besides there, I could maybe lend a hand in transferring what we have here to there in a more categorized and more neatly manner, that way its direct and straight to the point instead of people having to read through pages of info of our own opinions and get straight to the data/info. Again, not much help just yet, but a while back I did contact some indian authoritys on asiatic lions (since the surat and ganges river account is just to awesome to not pass on) to such as Mahesh Rangarajan, who he appreciated and who he then contacted Mr. Divyabhanu Sinh Chavda, who contacted me and was quite mind blown in the content, as he stated he has been in search of those specifics for several decades and never found any encounters of both in the wild (atleast a fight to the death wise)...and it turns out, Mr chavda, is one of the worlds...worlds leading authorities on asiatic lions:


Of course, I too was still in awe of the accounts of the asiatic lion vs the bengal in surat (probably because I am the one who re-discovered it lol) but shared the other accounts mainly of the asiatic lion fights with bengals in captivity with him. I think probably that will open up windows to having those scientist further look into the archives of india and find lion/tiger historical encounters even more, I am quite sure there must be hundreds more, to even thousands...our findings can help pave the way in places to look. But anyways, hope this helps, and hope to see some newer info down the line.

Good luck everybody, and keep up the good fight. 


Edited by Prime - 17-Dec-2015 at 19:38
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