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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers
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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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    Posted: 08-Jun-2015 at 22:54
Works fine for me.. but I will report your concern reference this anomaly...to the appropriate admin.
"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2015 at 22:58
Cheers, ta.
So CV, do the links I post - also work for you?
They dont for me, so its a tad frustrating..
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2015 at 23:42
 
 
Another male asiatic lion
 
In fact, the forest cover was so thick even in the 15th and 16th centuries A D. that
wild elephants buffaloes, lions and tigers were hunted in the upper Ganga plains
(Abul Fazal, Ain-I-Akbari, pp. 283-93).
 
Wow, so the asiatic lion was so far east of india, it inhabited both the gangis basin, and the northern gaingis plains, inbetween thos spots is probably where leofwins account of velar probably took place, would be interesting to know exactly which districts the lion was in, that we can narrow down the search in finding more conflicts between tigers.
 
Animals could be sign-ifiers of the forest landscape, with Sanskrit pharmacopeias placing the lion at the apex in the aranya or forest and man
 
Among wild animals, one of the most familiar to the poets of the Rigveda is the
lion (simha). They describe him as living ... The king of beasts has, however,
remained ... The tiger is not mentioned in the Rigveda at all, its natural home
being the swampy jungles of Bengal, though he is now found in all the jungly
parts of India.
 
The Indian lion is one of the rarest and most important of the animals of India, and yet it is one of the least known. ... middle of the last century a certain "sportsman" shot over 300 of them, fifty of which were in the neighbourhood of Delhi No fewer than eighty lions were killed within three years by another "sportsman"... Lacking the cunning of the tiger and its preference for thick habitat, the lion fell an easy victim to sportsmen, especially
 
 
So most likely with the lion killed off by the hunters in each century, the tiger slowly crept west slinking through the jungles almost un-noticed taking up the lands of the former.
 
It is observable from the experince of that country, that where there are lions a tiger is  scarcley ever seen; so that one has to suspect the former has the mastery. The tiger exceeds in bulk and appearnt strength the asiatic lion. It has not the same elastic gait and I should think there may be, a vivacity in the courage of the lion which might alone render the neighbourhood uncomfortable to the tiger, though he were essentially stronger. The natives evidently believe in the superiority of the lion; for in those parts where we have been sporting they have no name for the animal but bura sheer, the greater tiger
 
Sounds like hes saying even the smaller lions would beat a bigger tiger with more willingness to fight. How about this funny one:
 
The Field in 19th century gave the credit of elimination of the lion in India to the
tiger He mentioned that the tiger is physically superior to the lion and should be
regarded as the king of beasts. This only sounds hypothetical and imaginary as
in reality the tiger has nothing to do with the extinction of the lion. Mr. R.I. Pocock
And another one similar:
 
Thus the lion and the tiger entered India by different routes — the lion from the west, the tiger from the east; and since the tiger spread all over South India, which the lion failed to reach, it is probable that the tiger's invasion of the country preceded the lion's.  In that case the lion made its way into Northern India and multiplied exceedingly despite the tiger being already in occupation of the country. Moreover, the average, if not absolute, difference between the animals in habitat makes it unlikely that the tigers waged organized warfare against the lions, or that combats between individuals, in which the tigers were victorious, were sufficiently frequent to lessen appreciably the number of lions, may be dismissed as fanciful, because an encounter would just as likely end in mutual avoidance as in a fight, and in the event of a fight the lion's chance of success, would, so far as anything is •known to the contrary, be as good as the tiger's. Hence there does not appear to be an item of evidence that the tiger played even a subordinate part in the extermination of the lion in India.
 
 
This one is gona sting the tiger fans like pckts and peter, here is their idle for almost all the info they get on tigers...el Jim corbett:
 
 
and he says:
 
According to Jim Corbett, "the tiger is lentleman". an (Panthera Leo) ) lion is truly
the king of the beasts
 
Ouch, the most legendary authority of tigers, actually thinks the lion is the greater animal.
 
This source says that lions and tigers were known to frequent the ame jungles and:
 
 
The Bengal lion has the mane magnificently developed, attains a very large stature, and displays equal courage with that of its African relative
 
 
 
and the dimensions of the skulls indicate that the Indian lion is of much the same size as the African animal, and the tiger.
 
 


Edited by Prime - 10-Jun-2015 at 05:06
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Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2015 at 23:49
Cool pic there P, that big Asiatic Leo sure strikes a confident pose..
Dosen't seem likely that he'd be too afeared of a pack of d'holes..

& he looks like he'd make a splendid contribution to the re-establishment of the wild Barbary lions in Morocco, too..
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 03:20
 
 
Thats what the mane is for, intimidation...if a tiger makes a rush in the first instances of getting close his neck width/head/shoulders is the first things being seen, and the tigers neck width is only about 2 feet across, with a height of only 2-3 feet standing, he will look only similar or slightly bigger than his opponent, not that intimidating (as they're running straight and not side ways only the head/neck width is being seen not how long they are), but when a male lion is running at something his mane is usually erect when they're close, when a foe sees a lion rushing in they see a neck/width of 2-4 feet across and standing 3-4 feet, so this blur of motion looks to being vastly larger than them, the circumference is nearly that of a rhinos neck, some lions manes are so large in circumference that it can be larger than a tiger entirely, if it was just one long strand across that would be one thing, but he has a massive amount of hair, so much it can be as equal to 3-4 tigers necks combined (probably more): 
 
Lion, tiger, liger
 
Not even that ligers neck is as filled in as the lions mane...circumference, that liger probably has 300 lbs on that lion, yet the lions neck-width/shoulder-area is twice as large. When the lion is running at something head on, the atackee only sees the front for the first instances, his lower half is twice as small, (but they dont know that)...they probably think a 2,000 lb animal is chargeing at them in the first instances. No one has ever made a comparison either of what animals neck is the same size of a large maned lions circumference, even Dr. Brady bar didnt know how to answer how big can a lions mane get, it has to do with:
 
- Width across length and verticle as well, (with the hairs stretched all the way out)
- Volume (of how puffy it is, some have thin some have thicker)
- Circumference entirely (the filling in a of a circles calculations)
 
Basically how big the circumference is, honestly, the circumference is bigger than even most bovines necks, so the lion can be somewhat compared to have a neck size (mane) of maybe a average sized hippos or rhinos...atleast the largest of maned lions, not your average ones. No other predator comes close, just in that specific part....maybe a 2,000 lb brown bear but thats about it, since polar bears necks are relatively skinny. Doesnt add in alot strength wise (but it does offers tons of defensive property), but at the same time it doesnt slow him up stamina wise, bears have added fat, alot of it, try wearing a extra 100 lb suit and fight someone in a duel, but then fight someone with a super big fur coat on, both will look to be big, but only one can move in and out alot faster and retain alot more energy.
 
 
As for the asiatic lion...I rather they just keep looking for barbary lions, according to the books out there, some state the true Barbary went out in the 15-16th century, even most supposed  lions like from morroco didnt test positive, most likely royalty would just import near by lions and claim those are barbarys...but they could have decendants, even one with a little barbary would be better than a leo persica.
 
If the mane theory of lions of barbary were truely distinctive than they shouldnt have a problem narrowing down the seacrh lions with large manes...that extends down to the belly:
 
Only 1/1,000 male lions have belly manes and are actually large, lions in south africa was said to have big manes too, so although it will be a task to seperate the geno between canidates, narrowing down the search is quite easy...if a scientist in the Dna field was to search now with the internet he can find canidates relatively fast, since just by typeing in....male lion roars at zoo, almost all the videos have the names of the zoo right on it before you click into it, so you probably can have 100's of canidates within a few hours of searching. Just would have to find the lions with the largest manes more specifically the ones that extend down to the belly. Just contact them, then ask for a blood sample, and fanito...they should have their answer if any do exist.
 
If they do, that would be one epic thing, if asiatic lions can make a comeback, than a breeding program than reintroduction program can help the mighty barbary.
 
And whats with peter and his clowns? What kinda crap is this scaling:
 
Is that why indian people like arjan, mitra, two others and some hunters as well, all explained the lion as the taller and even bulkier of the two? lol And always with the more inbreed small maned lions, the reason why asiatic lions have a pairing geno with the barbary, is because a healthy non-inbreed male lion has a mane that extends down to the belly, almost all zoo male lions of leo persica have large manes that extend down to the under-side... c'mooon, you wanna use inbreed asiatic lions (that wont have a strong figure or big mane) and not have the common decenacy to use all the populations of the bengal including the sundarbans? XD XD XD Buy'eeest! lol and whats with the stone aged weight and size figures? Dont we have video and email now? How hard is it to contact the wild life sanctuaries or zoos there and get everything on video...like this:
 
 
But, noooo, they have to use (most likely hand picked small records, while bigger ones are casted aside) 200-400 year old weight figures. XD XD XD And they want that kinda things published in the 20th century? XD Little kids with guts who wanna email the zoos and ask for similar video evidence of mandatory yearly weigh-ins can exploit and expose these self-proclaimed scientist. lol Funny how I see every number from length, chest girth, skull, height on their scaling all in favor of the tiger....WOW, the tiger is some kinda of super cat to excell in everything anatomy wise against the asiatic lion....no no no, we wont except the 280 kg lions confirmed or the 272 scientific excepted weights, we will only use the 240 one, even though its universally accepted as 250 kg on every main stream site, jesus, these wakos want every little inch to surpassing the lion. XD XD XD
 
Who is the only one on record winning a fight in the wild? The L-i-o-n. lol Not because of counting in every little inch of their bodys like there scaling of giving every number...imaginetively to the tiger, no the lion won beause his breed are fighters, not cowards. Thats why I back the lion even more now.


Edited by Prime - 09-Jun-2015 at 03:34
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Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 06:21
Another valuable post there P, thanks.. &  I do agree with your points therein..

I have always been an avid performing big cat circus fan, moreso than zoos & show parks..
..& the presence of lions, & their spirit, is indeed very prominent & proud, not surly like tigers..
They got me hooked then..

About the large mane visual effect..

I recall hearing as a kid, that large threatening animals, such as bears - could be intimidated by the sudden opening of an umbrella, but that this did not apply to male lions, who saw it as a challenge..

I did read that DNA genome analysis of the ~700 year old Barbary lion skulls from the 
Royal collection at the Tower of London , now held by the British Natural History Museum,
show that Barbary lions - are in fact - closely related to extant Asiatic Leos..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 13:59
Originally posted by Prime

And whats with peter and his clowns? What kinda crap is this scaling

Well, you could do a better one, Prime. I think it's a nice comparison between average males, although I'm a bit surprised about the shoulder height.
As for how asiatic lions look, I don't think that's much of a problem. Like you said, few males have the big bushy mane that zoo lions have, and in the wild the conditions are not perfect like in a closed environment.
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 14:27
And you are?
 
...I am not interested in weights all that much, I see there averages as what they are, not what I can cherry pick. I am not interested too much of their size as I was told through out all my life tigers are bigger, so its sort of intented in my mind, but now that I am finding out that is not the case overall its sort of discouraging...I dont wish to dig too much into the weights since I fear that lions would be the share holder of larger animals even when the biggest are compared like that video of concrete evidence showed. I'll just accept the basics (and 200-400 year old info is far from the basics), the weights of are no concern to me as they are microscopic.
 
A 100 pound difference for humans is alot since the average is 180, take away the 100 and that would be more than 50% body mass, A 100 pound difference to a 500 lb animal is nothing, it'll be only around 20%, I am not a avid supporter of weight classes even in human sports like ufc, the old ufc (less rules, no gloves, almost anything goes) people had guys dropping others 2-3 times their weight classes. If mass has to be similar, why not arm length (reach), tallness ect? Any ways, 20% is nothing, I dont live my life day to day afraid of some body who is only 20% heavier than me, I'd gladly take on a person whos a 100% heavier...again 20% is nothing. As the only time I have seen countless of forums and blogs up an running is when people point out siberian tigers were 850 lbers and lions can range as small as 350 lbs...in that case game on, I see that as a challange of finding accounts that show a smaller lion beating a larger tiger, an I did, according to the articles one lion in new bedford killed a billed, 1,000 lb tiger.
 
The asiatic lions of current in the wild are majority inbread, try and mate with your intermidiate family for the first several generations and see how fit and healthy your kids are...they'd suffer from tons of abnormalitys...even older records of the 17-18th century each district out of gujurat would suffer from having no great population to pass on the natural selection gene of the biggest and fittest, because they were constantly gunned down with no laws of conservation. It seems that even the average resident an native of india is oblivious of the lions history there, one of the newest books called excotic aliens of now what seems to be a high ranked historian of lions, stated at the end of his speech, he knew nothing of the lions range, troubles and how much they were sported, and was detested.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 14:50
I agree that it doesn't seem much the weight difference, but I try to keep in mind that in animals that are so similar in their anatomies, every advantage counts.
Before I forget, I'm in doubt about the problem with inbreeding. I'm aware that it's not healthy, no doubts about that, but I can't let go of something I read in the book of Dian Fossey "Gorillas in the mist".
In her time, there were only 280 mountain gorillas and, since the population was so small, many animals mated with their daughters or sisters(not with their mothers). That caused of course some anomalies and issues in the animals but, now 50-60 years later, there are nearly 800 gorillas and they are healthy like any other. 
So I wonder if maybe with lions could be the same, if only the greedy indian government would let the Gir lions spread to other parts of india..
I also have no interest in cherry picking, that's why I try to read all I can about the subject.
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 15:13
I am still confused in why they were taken off the critical endangerd list...with only less than 200 males, I would think thats pretty dam critical from there down fall of the past 16th-17th century which could have had as much as lions in each state of india of what there is now of gujurats present 523. No census was ever done back then so its not like they could deny any great number...the fact is alot of history books do state the presence of wild lions all across india, and we know that lions populate fast or hardly anything natural would be able to out contend the lion to extinction.
 
I too would like to see asiatic lions on more than just one placement of the map in india, but it took gujurat a 100 years to make this happen and no small task...its not that easy to give up lions to someone who has failed to procure their own, and gir has already given lions up, many times...and their lions were never watched and moniterd, they all died in mysterious ways, how hard is it to moniter an safe guard a 3 pairs of lions? The entire county should be on the watch hour to hour...thats the whole point of conservation, not take a bunch of lions from another district and say... run free, back into the arms of poachers, new man made obstacles of death traps ect.
 
Listening to this persons satement, lions can be found as far as Bhavnagar
 
 
I would suspect the lion is even further than that, thats not too bad in terms 5 years out of the gir forest, thats already pretty dam close to surat right across, and surat is where Herne peregrine and Robert barill documented a lion killing a tiger. And Mp is only a bunch of so many miles from surat.
 
No, gujurat should keep their lions for now until the adult males reach the 500 mark, gujurat is doing a good job, the epademic scare (although a good point) sounded more of a scare tactics to speed up the translocation process, now lions are roaming almost out of gujurat, a disease break out cant stream the whole range at once as most are too far spread out, by then the ever watch full eye of gujurats officals would pick something up. Mp tiger population has plumated, if they cant take care of their tigers, why should gujurat trust them with their lions aka the Pride of the state and the last of all entire wilds of india? It will take a little more time, either way, lions will eventually make their way back to Mahdya predesh just by the constant growth, they' eventually would walk into kuno by them selves with growing numbers lol.


Edited by Prime - 10-Jun-2015 at 05:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 15:31
Yes, that is a good point.
Let's hope the lions can recover in the wild, not only in Asia, but also in Africa where there are less every year.
It would be a shame on us humans to lose such iconic animal in the wild.
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 15:39
With the way things are going with gujurat, I'm pretty sure they are. Tiger fans are stupid to be wishful of tigers being able to contend with lions, survive with and co-exist to an extant...probably...but contend, most likely tigers will be on the front news killed by lions every year they branch more into their former lands. I just dont see the myth that tigers wiped out tens of thousands of lions plausible, logical or even coherent, a kid with 6th grade mathematics would know that 12 > 1
 
As that source stated about the gangis plains and gangis basin, it stated the lions would rule the plains, and the tigers would inhabit the outskirts of the dense woodlands. Which shows they preffer theor own type of area but still be so close would eventually lead to conflicts.
 
Even as late as the loth and 17th centuries A.D. lions, tigers and elephants were
hunted in the Ganga-Yamuna doab (Abdul Fazal : 320).
 
The ganges-yamuna:
 
In 1832 one was killed at Baroda, while further north it was comparatively
common round Ahmedabad in 1836. ... Lt. Dodd mentions that Burns about 1830
wrote that lions as well as tigers, bears and wolves were found north of Bhooj, but
that none except the last named were now found, though a ... the Deputy
Commissioner, saw and killed no less than eight lions at Patulghar, 70 miles
north-west of Goona while in 1864 Mr. Arratoon of the police
 
They described the tigers, lions, and wild elephants in the thick jungles on the
banks of the Ganges. They said that "in the Ganges Valley, the people are
numerous and happy." Harsha was so kind a king, the scholars reported, that he
did not 
 
Historical writings indicate that wild elephants, buffaloes, bison, rhinoceroses,
lions, and tigers were hunted in the Ganga- Yamuna region in the 16th and 17th
centuries
 
 
Lions in the distant pass took ovet the ganges plains, as one of the oldest artifacts was a golden goblet with a lion on it, and a professor there states the older writings were more so of lions and not tigers:
 
twenty five years back, lion, occured in many parts of the country, like
Rajasthan, Uttar Pradesh, Gujrat, Maharashtra etc. Then it disappeared, quickly
and not gradually. The causes of the disappearance of the lion from these places,
could be man made...
 
 
This is an outdated graph and doesnt show nearly half the old ranges of the lion in india, but still it should have been likely they would be many in quanity of each area:
 
(from the old wikipedia)
 
 
As I said, gujurat had given lions before:
 
I would assume gujurat would like a better answer than mysteriously dissapeared, at that time it must have been huge to lose 11 lions in one crack, hence I see no reason why they should give up any more after the several failed attempts other districts requested lions. They are not sincere, they just know that lions have boosted the economie of tourist into gujurat, hence no big steps are made, and it seems they just wanna rush the process without even providing the basics.
 
Again, as this lady stated, they take great pride in the asiatic lions existance:
 
They are sincere about conserving the lion, unlike others who could have done it in any time-line dating back to the 15th century an before...alot most likely was due to the british war, almost every white or indian person was armed with guns and gunned down anything that moved in the forest and jungles, but still...those days are over and so is the hunting days of the great papei who mah pah, killed 300 so I wanna kill twice as much bullshit...there is no left to kill, true cowards...but the movement now is foward, and I think lions and tigers are gona be making a big comeback.


Edited by Prime - 10-Jun-2015 at 16:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 16:08
I don't think that either. In fact, that is the exact reason why lions are social cats.
To control the optimal territory and prey in it, you need numbers. That is why lionesses form prides and why male lions form coalitions. A lone lion does not have a chance against organized enemies.
Something similar could be said about a tiger. No matter how big, he wouldn't have a chance against a coalition of male lions.
Edit: Nice map, very interesting info.


Edited by Majingilane - 09-Jun-2015 at 16:09
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 16:56
Yup, no matter how big the animal, something that has numbers will dominate the long run:
 
 
Even 1 on 1 size doesnt garentee anything if the size isnt significant:
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 18:40
Yes. 
However, I'm sure that does not apply to a male lion and whatever number of hyenas or wild dogs. 
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Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 18:55
Correct, the bolshy confidence of a prime male lion will not
allow it to kow-tow to such lesser beasts..

& while it is certainly true that all big cats with hard-striking
sharp-clawed limbs are capable of inflicting severe injuries on each
other, it is even worse for other animals who are lesser armed,
& esp' those which are significantly smaller - such as dogs..

It is doubtful that either tigers or bears could establish themselves
in the African plains habitat dominated by lions, given their essentially non-social life-style, even if they were exchanged with
lions & did not have to cope with them, they would still find the
hyena packs problematic, whereas leopards skilfully use trees to
evade being overwhelmed by numbers.. tigers likely could not do so as well..
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Posts: 32 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 19:04
The whole issue about the tiger being heavier then the lion is a misconception if your thinking its an advantage. What many people don't understand, is why is the tiger sometimes heavier then the lion?  The reason is many species of lions are shorter in length, sometimes quite a bit shorter then the tigers. Many tigers can grow to be exceptionally long...but over all, the tiger is thinner and more narrow in the body then the lion on average.  The added weight a tiger can have is in length, sometimes height, and food intake, being a solitary cat.

The lion is generally stronger and thicker where it matters most in a fight.  And that is in the front quarters. Beneath the lions mane, it has greater muscular mass that surpasses the tiger...these areas consist of the trapezius muscles, shoulders, chest, neck, and back muscles the lattisimus dorsi muscles. The areas around the shoulders and between them, the whole top part of the frame of the lion is at times quite a bit more muscular then the tiger.  A tiger that is the same age, same height and length as a lion, will generally actually weigh less, not more. In the wild the lions weights are all over the place, as their life is much more sporadic and unpredictable then the solitary tiger.  Male lions only spend 3 to 4 years as pride males, the rest is spent outside the pride, fighting to get back in or hunting with other nomads. During these times, male lions are stressed, fighting frequently bumping into other stray males, so they don't get the proper nutrition, which hence is going reap a lesser weight as a species vs the tiger.
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It does, but it is not common. These animals dont just meet up like some pre-arranged show down, they evolved specifically against each other, unless that specific hyena clad had never in their lives seen a lion, they would apt to attack a lone male, but these are neighbors they would fully understand when one is either just shy away from the pride and take a small advantage, or one has been ousted from a pride and take full advantage. But I'm sure they know the risk against reward system too, drop a male tiger and female pair of the biggest you can in africas most dense hyena population, I bet he wont make the month, as they wont show nearly as much intent to defend themselves like lions, and apt to run, which would trigger the hyenas to attacking.
 
Vartys tigers are on private land and fenced off, hence lions nor hyenas can get in, and salmoni had the backing of an entire crew to aid the tigers...size has little to do with a hyena attacking, no predator averages as big as a lone bull buffalo, yet hyenas run them down regardless...if they can corner off one and have the numbers and balls, they will kill any lone predator...they dont usually on lions because they are aware of the pride living situation. Lions are vastly more aggressive, becuse they need to be against hyenas.
 
If you are looking for who would win against african lions against siberians, your best bet would be circus archives, newspaper archives and zoo/menagerie accidents, as they hold hundreds more accounts than some pit fights 2,000 years ago of romans or english... if you're looking for concrete evidence, your best bet would be to study the asiatic lions history, eventually you will run into more conflicts with leo persica and the bengal, who once heavily co-existed. As of right now atleast 4 accounts possibly 5 exist of fights in the wild....Gangis river, Bangalore, Bold champs other account, Surat and maybe that story that was recently found about the old hunters statement...in indias captivity too lions have killed tigers in Jamangar zoo, Nadankanan, a few others and some ones of some 17th century about how lions killed tigers in mountain slopes with some stuff on video of indias pit fights, some even unseen but all have the asiatic lion as winning with trailing experts like jamsahib and kailash all who confirm an add to even the asiatic lion is superior in combat to the bengal. Its not so much of a mismatch as most tiger fans would want you to believe, the statistics is basically useless, it doesnt have to be repeated that the tiger is microscopically bigger over and over and over, thats not gona prove anything, finding records is alot more constructive then constantly repeating the same thing millions of others have been doing for the past few centurys about weights, length, skulls and all that crap...we already know the size margins of these animals, I dont need to hear it again for the ongoing discussions, I would rather see newer info of different fights recorded than even more weights, when these tiger fans find a 2,000 lb tiger, than I'll be intrested in talking size...
 
And check this out, it was further confirmed that the two lions that died under dick clemens was young and maneless, with also some stateing that clemens tryed to protect the tigers (proving the tigers werent in on the fight, and this one further shows the tigers remained high on perches away frm the fighting lions:
 
Funny how the tiger fans used that account with the other non-discriptive news articles, and tryed to act as if the tigers fought 10 lions and killed 2...lol yeah right as if thats possible.
 
heres another newsstation that covered the lioness and tiger fight:
 
 
Hunter on both:
 
 
Sidensticker and the lot of all biologist stated that tigers have shorter limbs, how can something with shoter limbs be taller, that makes zero sense.
 
Aside from lions having relatively longer legs, it is virtually impossible to tell these two cats apart without their skins
 
that is in spite of the lion's natural advantages of a mane to protect its neck and the possession of somewhat longer legs
 
The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder height.
 
The tiger stands lower on the limbs than the lion, and is thus proportionately longer in the body
 
Tigers stand three feet or less at the shoulder very seldom taller.
  
LION The lion has been given the title 'King of the Jungle' for a reason. It is the tallest of all felines and has muscular legs, iron clamp jaw
 
The African lion is a massive, tawny colored predator of the cat family. On average, the lion is the tallest of the big cats
 
 
The tiger is in the 2-4 feet range, while the lion in the 3-5 feet range.
 
 
Well, here you have the lion and tiger side by side ; each a splendid brute in his own line : the lion perhaps the more powerful,


Edited by Prime - 10-Jun-2015 at 03:09
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Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2015 at 19:36
Size variability in big cats is such that there is no realistic
difference between lions & tigers overall,worth getting excited about( mane excepted).

Prime is correct to refer to the vast experience of the circus beastmasters who daily bet their lives on accurately knowing the ways of
these cats..

One example Prime cited was of the C19th German woman who made her living by touring South America with her troupe of bull-fighting lions..

( Posted in this thread on 14th May.. "This lion killed 6 bulls...")

She did not use tigers for this role.. why was that?

Was it because the lion had a better reputation,& crowd draw attraction - as 'King of the Beasts' - or was it because they were more reliable, trainable performers, & better fighters, thus were more likely to 'bring home the beef' for their owner/operator/partner?

Perhaps both..


Edited by J.A.W. - 09-Jun-2015 at 19:55
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jun-2015 at 07:12
A recap, on what I learned of asiatic lions (only in india):
 
RECORDED FIGHTS
 
Captivity:
 
- Jamnagar zoo: Lion named leo kills tiger named vikram.
- Nadankanan zoo: Two young lionesses kills white tigress kurtika
- Argatala zoo: Tigress ambushes lion and lion kills tigress.
- Jam sahib of nawanagar: Witnesses 4 fights all which the lion won
 
(Pit fights or match ups)
 
- Kailash sankhala: Backs the lion in virtue of his mane, and states a lion killed a tiger in pit fight
- Gir forest video: 3 lions vs 3 tigers all which the lion won.
- Video in burma: The lions wins in a fight with a tiger by crushing his skull (as stated on article)
- India speaks: Unknown details and unseen yet
- Damoo dhotre: Backs the lion over the tiger in virture of his mane and endless courage
- Video in bhutan: Lion defeats tiger (as stated on article)
- Animal planet: Dave salmoni, samantha stephens, Scott woodward and Frank mendel, all agreed the asiatic lion would beat the bengal
- Singh hari shanka: mentions four people in favor of the asiatic lion over the bengal and co-agrees
- Bhim singh: calls the lion the true king of beast and the tiger cowardly
- Several naturalist and biologist state lions would have the advantage of back up from the pride
 
(Wild)
 
- Surat: Herne peregrine and robert barill: Witness a lion kill a tiger in a long fight by over powering and disembloweling, in virtue of his endurance
- Gangis river: Landshut newspaper: Witnesses a lion kill tiger after a long fight by crushing his skull
- Bangalore: The sun & Ballou: Tiger bitten badly twice in the neck and the lion lifts tiger off the ground and slams him, the fight ends in seperation both wounded and pars ways
- A Traveler meeting a old hunter: Tells him of a lion who saved him from a tiger and the lion killed the tiger
- Bold champs unknown source: Shows a lion with a death grip on a tiger and the natives stated the tiger was squeeling, before both is shot dead
- Historian sanstri: Mentions lions killing tigers in mounatain slopes of the parripatu
 
 
FORMER RANGES & HISTORIC HEALDRY
 
- Gujurat
- Bombay
- Madhya pradesh
- Rajahsthan
- Andrah pradesh
- Ganges yamuna
- Ganges basin
- Ganges plains
- Other districts:
 
Surat, goona, rewa, palamau, delhi, agra, allabahad almost all of west, north, south and east
 
(Known as the king of beast or held higher)
 
- Sanskrit
- Mahabarata
- Ashoka
- Bengali
- Pali
- Rigveda
- Bihar
- Mitra mentions almost all of indias historic records out strips the tigers presence
- The entire country of india for 2,000 years, had the lion as the national animal before the tiger
- 6 artifacts of a lion defeating a tiger
 
PHYISICAL COMPARISON & QUALITYS
 
(Physically)
 
- The asiatic lion is taller at the shoulder and has a bigger skull
- Averagely the lion as a sub-species is heavier than majority of the bengal/sundarban tigers
- The tiger is longer and better at yanking down things and utilizing his hind legs
- The tiger has bigger fangs
- The lion is stronger at striking and biting and has a protecting factor via mane the tiger is without
 
(Physicologically)
 
- The lion is more aggresive while the tiger passive
- The lion is more bold while the tiger is cowardly
- The tiger is more cunning, while the lion is more magnimious
- Fights to only to mate or defend himself vs lions protects their cubs, females and prides
- Roams freely alone and attacks younger weaker males vs lions buddie up 2 or 3 male coalitions and conquer territory
 
 
Not to shabby, especially for an animal the entire web like forums, blogs and newer made talk that the bengal would win 10/10 to the supposed inferior or just patheticnss of the asiatic lion lol yeah right, more like one on one its a close 7/10 win for the asiatic lion...dont need to be higher or the tiger fans will cry about 857 lb tigers, but it doesnt need to be lower since on record the only one winning in the wild is...the lion, and for the record, I seen that 857 lb tigers photo shot wth the hunter...to be honest it looked more like a 8 foot tiger that was only in the 500 lb range. lol
 
And biologist schaller commented on that tiger as well, saying food adjustment (you know, because thats what they always did for the lion these days) was that a tiger eats 20% of his weight (and since the tiger just ate a buffalo all by him self stated in the hunters remarks), brings 20% knocking the tiger back down to 700 lbs (relatively the same weight of the african lions big records)... Atleast jahangirs lion was stated to be properly measured using scientific measurements and was nearly 700 lbs but both asiatic lions and all bengals come no where close to that on average, both are fine and normal around 400 lb range...but regardless all those are ridculously outdated, since theres video now, if they wanna complain about weight, then lets see some modern weights of big tigers via video recorded. Oh and the 7/10 is only for 1 on 1, as a natural setting, no man interveening, the lion would win 9.9/10 since he has his pride backing him up, no dought once lions start roaming more out of gujurat, we will see who truly is, was and alway has been...the King of the jungle. lol
 


Edited by Prime - 10-Jun-2015 at 07:52
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