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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers
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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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TheAlaniDragonRising View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22-May-2015 at 05:59
This may not be lion v tiger, but it does have tigers in, and is a bit of fun.
What a handsome figure of a dragon. No wonder I fall madly in love with the Alani Dragon now, the avatar, it's a gorgeous dragon picture.
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Posts: 320 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2015 at 02:43
Some hapless/dumb-as tigers right there..
Compare the captive zoo lioness stalking/killing the bird intruding into her deal, also on youtube..
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Posts: 301 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2015 at 16:16
Hey J.A.W...
 
Seen some of your post on carnivora, quite funny people there think you are me...as usual if anyone completely demolishes them in an argument with via facts they would think anyone who agrees with me is me...lol
 
What was funny was, the bear accounts full throttle posted, as if they have never been posted before, it was on shaggy god proboards for how long already and was posted on carnivora and other sites countless of times, the thing that is more accute of the funniness, is they always have to conjoin the...Tiger...accounts...when mentioning beating lions, thats because their list of lions losing is so small they barely have any arguments, plus that they think they can say, if a  big cat via tiger who is supposedly bigger, stronger, faster and all around more superior, then the lion has little chance. lol Yeah right, according the records lions have nearly almost always won. And its also funny how full throttle calls every one who states the lion wins stupid, over an over, yet he just stated he has posted wayyyyyy more accounts of bears killing lions and tigers, then of big cats killing bears...lol That shows he cant even count making him the most stupidest. lol
 
Ohhh? Last time I checked there was nearly 50 accounts of pumas killing black and brown bears, he doesnt even have just 20 times bears have killed african lions, in fact my main point was on its substance, although not all has details, we can take it for what it gives, and almost all the accounts of bears either states, illustrates or suggest they were big male bears, via like the names...almost all male names = Monarch, Ramadan, Grumbler, Siskiyou, Bruno, Sampoo, Peary, articles that states He-bear, Big bear, giant bear, or the illustration like the two lionesses attacking a bear which looks 4x there size. How many illustrates or mentions a full maned lion? The article of the polar bear killing the lion even stated the lion Dallas was only born 2 years before coming there, hence...only a small cub. They dont have even half the amount of times pumas have killed bears than they do of the opposite.
 
As goes hunting feats that pretty much show the true capabilitys of these animals, I think two specific animals should be more further gatherd upon, the giant eland, and the giraffe...mainly for being taller and heavier than majority of things tigers and bears hunt, more specifically ones that are killed by lone male lions:
 
 
(some from asads recent ones)
 
The largest prey were constituted by adult male giraffe, weighing around 1200 kg, approximately 10 times the mass of the predator  Hayward & Kerley (2005) found that lion selected prey species preferentially within a mass range of 190–550 kg, but made no adjustment for the under-recording of smaller prey species. Over half of the giraffe and two-thirds of the buffalo killed by lion were adult animals in the Mala Mala Reserve adjoining Kruger (Radloff & du Toit 2004). A substantial fraction of the adult buffalo falling prey to lions are killed by male lions hunting independently of female prides (Funston et al. 1998, 2001; Radloff & du Toit 2004). In northern Botswana, lions hunting in groups of around 10 killed young elephants weighing up to 2500 kg in body mass, more than 10 times the mass of a male lion (Joubert 2006
 
In fact, while it used to be thought that giraffe-killing amongst lions was rare, it really seems not to be, nor do lions find it that difficult. Guggisberg (1975) reported at least ten giraffe kills that happened in Nairobi National Park between 1965 and early 1967, for example, and nine of the giraffes were adult
 
an more...
 
in two years lions have killed 93 giraffes, and all together 675 giraffes were killed by lions and 108 more a few years later:
 
two lions kill bull giraffe
 
Giraffes, even adult bulls, have been seen to be killed by two or more lions,
 
 
Hunting Large Prey Although solitary lions may on occasion successfully attack adult giraffe
 
Once, while on a real vacation in a game park in Rhodesia, they learned that a
lion had killed a giraffe nearby
 
A determined lion can kill a full-grown giraffe but it must take the risk of a fatal kick from the intended victim's large hoofs and strong legs. On one occasion, a lion killed a giraffe in typical fashion by leaping onto its back and biting into its neck. But when the giraffe collapsed the lion was crushed to death under its one-ton weight.
 
Lion kills bull giraffe:
 
Juvinile lion kills bull giraffe
 
We had just found the carcass of a big male giraffe, killed by a male lion, and
nearby we also found a dead dog. The dog, attracted by the smell of the giraffe
carcass, decided to have a meal. The lion came upon the dog, and after a short
chase ...
 
We found them feeding on an adult bull giraffe that they had killed the night
before
 
In one place, we came upon three crocodiles eating the remains of a baby
elephant speared by Samburu; elsewhere we found a large giraffe which had
been killed by a lion, lying on a slope at least twenty yards from the river.
Crocodiles had ...
 
Another young solitary male killed two adult bull giraffe also within a week's time
 
Marks of claws on the giraffe indicated that it had been killed by only one lion...We hastened to investigate and found the carcass of a tremendous old bull giraffe killed early the same morning by a lion. In fact the lion must have been hiding in the brush near by, because all the vultures were sitting in a dead tree near the ...
 
Posted Image
 
Posted Image
Shadow, has managed to bring down a huge Eland bull.

He has been on the kill for the last few days with hundreds of kilograms of meat at his paws. We estimate shadow to be around 220-230kg’s but that is tiny compared to the possible 700 – 800 Kg Eland bull in picture.

 
another one:
 
Despite a full belly this massive lion guards his eland kill against jackal scavengers near Tierkop waterhole on the lower dune road. Kgalagadi transfrontier park, South Africa,
 
Posted Image
 
and lions kill a 14 long crocodile:
 
  • books.google.com
    The horses were obviously the targets in this case and were ambushed by several lions, one springing at the hind ... A crocodile then came out of the water in order to appropriate the remains and was killed by the lions in defence of their
    kill.
    •  
    books.google.com
    "Then followed a very wonderful fight between the two beasts. Their tusks ... "While hunting on the banks of the Rufiji I put up a lion in some long rushes.... He had evidently jumped on the crocodile's back and had apparently torn out its throat.
     
    A bull eland is just as large as any bison and or guar, some records would suggest eland or more specific, the giant eland, can be as heavy as 2 tons:
     
    1 telegraphed that the creation of the commission was for tho purose LIVING AFRICAN. ELAND, weighing two tons
     
    Little is known of the giant elands absolute weight, a common eland already can easily rival your average bison and guar, the giant eland is in his own league of weight, if the asian elephant is smaller than the african one, I think the guar would be smaller than the giant eland:
     
    Posted Image
     
    Posted Image
     
    Both bison and guar topped in at around 3,300 lbs, the giant eland has about 700 lbs at maximum over them. And the intimidating statement by the bear fans such as warsaw and fullthrottle looking to post as they call gaint bears, is quite hilarious, they think if you post a pic of something which seems large, it would prove there point:
     
    Posted Image
     
    Awww, wheres the feet shot? How do we not know this bear is on a platform like all the other bears with photos of people in them? And thats not even the funniest part, you can hardly compare photos when they are not in the same shot of lion vs bear, but you can compare the person in them...this bears neck width is only the size of the mans shoulder to shoulder, so his neck is only around 2 feet in width...lol The lion in virtue of his mane has a larger front body (specifically maned area) than lower half:
     
    For lions the neck area is bigger than the stomach area:
     
    For bears the neck area and upper body is smaller than the stomach area and lower half (and this is pretty much a slim bear) :
     
     
    Again, small neck, fat body:
     
    Even for polar bears, small neck circumference, massive lower half via stomach and rump:
     
     
    With lions its the opposite, smaller lower half, double the size in the front, via chest, neck and shoulders:
     
     
    So when ever these bear fans post what they to be noted as massively large bears that just dwarf lions, be sure to point out the width of the neck and upper body circumference, because on average brown and polar bears neck width seem to only be 1 foot side to side and 2 an a half feet at maximum, for lions because they have manes, the average is 2 feet across and maximum of almost 4 feet side to side...basically double the size of the worlds largest bear in terms size (not mass), but size.
     
    Which its, in general bears are not the biggest, all three excells the other in size.
     
    - Tigers are the longest tip of the tail to tip of the nose
    - Polar bears the tallest from feet to head standing
    - Brown bears are the fattest
    - Lions the largest in the front via circumference of the mane
     
    All have strong points, tigers are built lithe (as stated in over 100 books) for movement and flexibility, brown bears are built roubust and fat for pinning things down (as over a 100 science sources state they are prone to obesity), and lions built compact and solid for head to head in how they're body is contoured too (as most M.D's, Biologist and trainers state).  A lion is a quadriped, and he fights like one, staying on all fours most of the time only to extend a paw blow or full on lunge, bears/tigers are qudripeds too, yet they take to a bi-pedal stance, denoting their full potential, I yet to see a tiger/bear do any massive damage blunt force wise with their paws while standing bi-pedal. It would be the same as saying a human can strike his hardest if he goes on a quadripedic stance and throw blows on all fours. 
     
     
    As for the seeing who is more superior in combat of bear vs lion, I think a big portion of its answer will come from more accounts of pumas killing  bears, theres already near 50 accounts of it happening, the thing is, these animals heavily coexist with each other, so there will be thousands to tens of thousands of conflicts with alot of death accounts too to find, so you just have to keep getting accounts of pumas killing bears, this shows multiple things, that size is a non-factor (since its not significant), and that both how useful the weapons are and what is the limit of their durability...some think the higher the mass/weight number equates into the higher the durability, they think bigger bears are immune at the throat because of there mass in other places of the body, I get it...hes bigger...alot bigger than pumas, but how does this obstruct the puma from getting at the throat? It doesnt.
     
     
    And hey Counter strike, I got your Pm...yeah no worrys about the wild account one, wasnt depedning on it, I'm sure theres still tons of other accounts in the wild, I will still keep that in as a noted source, but surely if you keep looking or atleast start to look, then you will find answers. Still would be cool to see leofwin back in the search espeacially adding to the newer Lion vs bear stuff. Thanks again jaws and counter strike.


    Edited by Prime - 06-Jun-2015 at 17:25
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2015 at 17:45

    Since the list of accounts of pumas killing bears is growing ridculously long, and dont want to repeat any, I'll try and do a head count of how much there is on record so far in order:

    (2014)
    Female panther kills female black bear
     
    (2010)
    The two animals spent some time licking their rounds, but at last the lion charged the bear again and this time with his claws he tore open he bear's back and his claws must have reached some deadly part, for presently the bear fell over dead and the lion went off to his old place and began to lick his wounds again.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=6BccAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA532&dq=%22fight+between%22+bear+dead&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7b_mVLLXIIPxoASBwILoDg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDhu
     
    (2005)
    Bear dies in fight with panther
     
    (1990)
    terror of all other creatures except, perhaps, the grizzly bear (and a few stories had panthers vanquishing even them).
     
    (1976)
    Thompson (1860) of Montpelier, Vermont provides a heavily dramatized
    account, of doubtful authenticity, of a cougar attacking a bear. Bailey (1936) was
    told by E. F. Averill that a small bear, immobilized by a trap, was killed, partially
    eaten,  and covered with leaves, presumably by a mountain lion.
     
    (1974)
    pumas are known to kill bears
     
    (1971)
    By whatever name it might be called, mountain lion, cougar, puma, this member of the cat family plays an ... The apotheosis of American carnivores, the cougar's strength and agility are legendary. ... of wild felids in the Western Hemisphere, he has proven more than the equal of even the grizzly bear in staged combat.
     
    (1969)
    Bear dies in fight with female puma:
     
    (1960)
    If such a thing ever did occur the result was doubtless due to the superior agility and general elusiveness of the great cat; for with a strength sufficient to permit it to strike a bull dead with one blow of its massive paw the grizzly must have lost in such a conflict merely
    because its movements were too ponderous. I am referring here, of course, to a
    grown grizzly,
     
    (1940)
    Once Mynheer Barhydt saw close by his clearing a fight between a
    bear and a panther which lasted more than an hour and ended only when both
    were dead
     
    (1930)
    Phillip R. Goodwins~Book of hunting records
     
    (1929)
    Ernest Thompson Seton (1929, 90-91) writes that G. W. Ferguson "recorded" a fight between a grizzly and a female cougar that was witnessed by two miners working a claim near Murry, Idaho. It was reported that a female cougar had a den and kittens in the vicinity, and when a grizzly, apparently unknowingly, approached the den, the mother cougar attacked the grizzly. During what the miners described as a fierce battle, the combatants fell off a mountain ledge and both where killed as a result of the fall. The miners claimed the cougar was still hanging on to the grizzly's cheek with her teeth; the bears back and throat were torn and lacerated and "his belly hide ripped into ribbons, mute evidence of the fact that all her paws with their 18 sharp claws had not been idle" (612).
    ~ Ernest Thompson Seton (1929, 90-91)
     
    (1927)
    Black bear dies in fight with puma (a good illustration of a puma an bear), his hide all over his body was shredded to ribbons:
     
    (1923)
    Man is told that pumas always killed bears, and gives his own eye witness account of a puma killing a bear 4x his own size.
     
    (1921)
    In a fight to the death, the mountain lion is more game than the black bear. He will fight to the last breath, when the black bear will quit and cover his head with his paws and bawl like a calf.
     
    (1920)
     
    She was ready for fight The panther came straight for the bear. She gave one leap and struck on the bear. There was a fierce struggle, with screaming and snarling, and In less than ten min utes the bear was tern to fragments. The panther walked Into the cave and came right out again and gave a scream that was bloodcurdling. Just then she saw the cubs. She gave a leap and brought one down and killed It, and went after the rest and killed them.
     
    (1919)
    Female panther kills she-bear
     
    (1917)
    bear dies in fight with female cougar
     
    (1915)
    Panthers were known to attack bears until they were torn and exhuasted further backing down:
     
    (1914)
    (1910)
    On approaching the stream the deadly conflict between the bear and panther was still raging, but right soon the bear gave a tad moan, which told...that the fight was over and the bear killed
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:I8suyd0GkVQJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/64476214/+site:newspapers.com+combat+between++bear+panther&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1
     
    (1909)
    Then a great panther, with every hair turned toward his head, rushed like fury ay us over me nage la pursuit. We didn't feel sorry that the bear ost his life,
     
    (1908)
    Puma kills bear:
     
    (1908)
    female cougar was more than a match for a grizzly bear in the jaw to jaw combat and the bear tired out an had to rest:
     
    (1907)
    The two animals spent some time licking their rounds, but at last the lion charged the bear igain and this time with his claws he tore open he bear's back and his claws must have reached iome deadly part, for presently the bear fell »er dead and the lion went off to his old place ind began to lick his wounds again.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=6BccAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA532&dq=%22fight+between%22+bear+dead&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7b_mVLLXIIPxoASBwILoDg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDhu
     
    (1906)
    In a fair fight A pair of mountain lions can kill a bear in fact have been known to do so when defending their young
     
    (1906)
    I saw the lion's back heave and straighten convulsively; the bear delivered a powerful blow, then broke away. He reared upright as the lion flew at his throat. I saw the bear's entrails fall out upon the ground, where they were literally torn away by his feet. Again the lion sought the safety of the shelf of rock, as the famous Bigfoot fell dead.
     
    (1902)
     
    (1902)
    Just as s ho gave her last kick and the panther rose In triumph, Saunders took a hand in the fight. and with two bullets killed the panther
     
    (1899)
    Bear dies in fight with puma
     
    (1898)
    The Indians say, that in a battle between the grizzly bear and the cougar the latter
    always proves the victor...highly probable when we consider the injury to be
    inflicted by the long keen claws of the beast, and its wonderful strength and agility
    https://books.google.com/books?id=YawXAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA15&dq=%22bear%22+%22agility%22+cougar&hl=en&sa=X&ei=24xuVZ7QIZbroATchYKYCA&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22bear%22%20%22agility%22%20cougar&f=false
     
    (1894)
    Bear dies in fight with puma:
    at the coward of the plains and crushed the life out of him. Then the bear staggered to the sheep shed and rolled over dead.
     
    (1892)
    The bear was now in extremities. There was but one remedy. So he wound himself up In a brown ball and dropped to the ground. fie struck with a sort of a smash, unbound himself, and started on a frantic lope" for safety. But with ftwo or three bounds the panther was low,h the. tree and near to him. She sprang upon the bear, burled her leeth in his throat and with her pow-'erful claws tore out his entrails
     
    (1891)
    The bear, a cinnamon, was a monster of his species. As near as they could estimate he would have weighed 1000 pounds. Each was a mass of cuts and wounds. The lion had one fore-leg crushed and mangled, as though from a bite, and the bear was cub from muzzle to tail .by the knife-like claws of his more active opponent.—" Buckskin," in the Ontario Observer,
    http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH18911121.2.66.24&cl=search&srpos=4&e=-------10--1----0lion+fights+bear+--&st=1
     
    (1890)
    The lion had buried its teeth in the bear's throat, and before he could move a paw in self-defeuso had torn him literally into shreds with its powerful, sharp claws. The whole thing had happened so quickly that I had scarce time to catch my breath when the fight was over, the bear dead,
     
    (1888)
    This lithe beast, weighing full- grown perhaps one hundred and fifty pounds, is the terror of the
    grizzly, for through sheer litheness and agility this great cat can vanquish this
    terrible bear. The indians say that they sometimes find a bear killed by a panther
     
    (1888)
    Panther...and credible authorities state that they are not louth to attack boldly even the dreaded grizzly bear, and often come off victorious.
    (1887)
    (1886)
    He once saw a fight between a black bear and a cougar and the latter killed his advesary in less than 20 minutes
     
    (1883)
    Livingston Stone (1883 : 1189) was told by the McCloud River Indians that the panther always killed the grizzly when the two fought. They said that the grizzly was afraid of the lion and that the latter would spring on the bear's shoulders and cut its throat. Stone saw places in the mountains where the ground had been torn up, evidence of a desperate conflict between a panther and a bear. Pumas have always been known to kill grizzly bears:
    https://books.google.com/books?id=m35NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1189&dq=mccloud+river+indians+panther+grizzly&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j4DpVKzMM4auogTmyYD4Dg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA
     
    (1882)
    Panther kills bear by jumping on back and ripping out his throat
     
    (1880)
    (1866)
    Puma kills black bear
     
    (1865)
    According to Frank Post of Big Sur, mountain lions sometimes were taken in the live traps built near Monterey to catch bears for the arena. Then a bear-and-lion fight would be aranged. Mr. Post saw such a contest at Castroville in 1865 when he was six years old, and remembered it vividly. The lion, which seemed to have no fear, leaped onto the bear's back and while clinging there and facing forward scratched the grizzly's eyes and nose with its claws. The bear repeatedly rolled over onto the ground to rid himself of his adversary; but as soon as the bear was upright, the cat would leap onto his back again. This agility finally decided the struggle in favor of the lion."
    https://books.google.com/books?id=TE83QfsayEoC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA45&focus=viewport&dq=san+bernardino+argus+grizzly+bear+panther&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html
     
    (1863)
    As they neared the spot, the victorious ainnita passed before them Into the jungle. On coming to the place of the deadly struggle they found dead and bleeding a large she bear, that would weigh probably 900 or 1000 pounds.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=f9DhAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA232&dq=%22fight+between%22+bear+dead&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KL7mVPqTN5HZoAS55IDADg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwADha
     
    (1861)
    He missed his object, but suddenly gathering his energies, he made a   _California_Magazine_1000831108/251
     
    (1857)
    We could see them struggling in the depths of the pool; bubbles of air rose to the surface, and the water became dark with gore. It may have been five minutes or more before they floated up dead, and their bodies rolled slowly down the stream. (Anon., 1857 : 823., California Grizzly)
     
    (1845)
    panther mangles a full grown bear to death:
     
    (1844)
    The bear released his hold and both animals sank to the ground in the agony of death. Bruin died first but his enemy lived but a minute or two after. They had fought to a finish and ceased to be in each other’s way. Both animals were of medium size and in good condition. I went home for assistance and we skinned the panther and took the bear home and used the meat. Since that time," remarked Mr. Baughman, "I have witnessed many hard fights between animals but the encounter between the bear and panther was the fiercest and most bloody I ever witnessed between domestic or wild animals."
    http://thelibrary.org/lochist/turnbo/V15/ST444.html
     
    (1839)
    Panther slaughters a bear:
     
    (1836)
    I saw a huge panther crouched down at the side of a dead bear which lay at the foot of a post oak tree that stood at the side of the pathway. The panther was guarding the bear. The two savage animals had met here and engaged in a terrific fight and the bear was killed. The scene of the encounter was in a small prairie bottom with a few scattering trees and nearly ¡ of a mile above the mouth of the hollow.
     
    (1836)
    Bear dies fighting panther
     
    (1800s)
    Another instance of deadly confrontation between a cougar and black bear took place some time prior to 1800 near Schuylerville, now Saratoga, New York. An early settler, Mynheer Barhydt, had just built a cabin within Bear Swamp and witnessed the battle. Barhydt indicated that the bear had discovered the cougar's den and, in the absence of the mother cougar, killed the cougar's young. Soon thereafter, the cougar arrived and attacked the bear, reportedly with an awesome display of fury. The cougar eventually implanted her claws so deply in adversary's body that the bear could not throw her off. In the struggle, which Barhydt claimed lasted more than an hour, the two animals rolled over each other into a ravine, and when all became still Barhydt looked down, over the edge, and saw both animals were dead. (Stone 1975, 137-39, and Bradley 1940, 116).
     
     
     
    Seems to be missing a few others, but it looks like super close to 50 accounts of pumas defeating and killing bears...I bet you can assist in getting more accounts as well. Do they honestly think it will end there? I think theres hundreds of times pumas have killed bears, if others aid the search and add in thre finds the list can keep growing. The more the list grows, the lesser the chances I see the bear against a prime african lion, after all george keller documented one of the very few times african lions and pumas fought, and unlike the bear who usualy fails in combat, the lion with one blow decapitated kellers puma. Any ways, feel free to copy this small list an paste it onto carnivora, as I know the bear fans will only flip there lids on any word thats related to anecdote, hear say and throw there fits. This all happened in the wild, so there captivity rants are now refuted. And thats just by pumas, not including other predators such as wolverines, hunting an fighting dogs and wolves who have killed giant sized bears in the wild.


    Edited by Prime - 05-Jun-2015 at 21:39
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2015 at 22:50
    More excellent material posted there, thanks Prime.

    The bear-raddled types over at Carnivora really hate me quoting your well researched posts..
    ..their lack of scientific objectivity, & infantile, emotive response to being proven wrong is hilarious.

    They lose it when I challenge them to post a picture of a shaved bear - next to a lion..
    & when I taunt them with the fact of bears being dirt-grubbing, dumpster-diving garbage guts..

    Taipan the Cougar fan - would have to love your fine literature review too..

    Cheers, man..
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jun-2015 at 23:59
    Yup, its the weaponry of these animals that seems to be the difference in why big cats as small as pumas can chop up a bear like a butcher, heres one on what a tiger did to a black bear:
     
    It also states the lion is the monarch of strength. A tiger would be a power house foe if he didnt adapt this fearful bi-pedal stance, in which is why both tigers/bears are somewhat vulnerable, they stand bi-pedal because they are afraid of another smaller version getting at their throats, but in consequnce, standing on their hind legs it actually exposes the throat even more. the fur protection of bears are basically none-existant, atleast towards the sharp claws to lions, tigers ect.
     
    As for the black bear that slashed open a lions shoulder in 1956 in florida, why arnt they in a hurry to find its credentials? castro stated a tiger made short work of a lion, yet when further looked into it, and found its originals it was not only a female lion, but she was asleep, I yet to see any lions in that same era, of that same circus, of that same animals, with any large sized mane on their lions:
     
    A maneless lion, is no more durable than a leopard is, a big maned lion is almost unbeatable towards its protected parts. They are quick to the draw to mention these things but no effort to find its substance? Like the california storys, I am pretty sure it was blown onto different proportions other than having to put the lion down, via the bear didnt, he just wounded the lion in a non-lethal place...an injured shoulder can be healed, a throat ripped out is dire within hours to minutes to seconds. I bet with further searching, that black bear account will be no different than prince or sultan the lion, who both killed small young bears, the lion was probably young an maneless.
     


    Edited by Prime - 03-Jun-2015 at 00:55
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2015 at 02:25
    Indeed, Prime, you are quite correct..& you can add all the fanciful assumptions Carnivore bear-boys make about "durability"..

    & if you post up a video of a lioness surviving having her head bitten
    by a hippo, with its tusk going through her throat.. it is ignored..

    The fact that blunt dirt scraping claws incapable of active multi-angle grasping & not sheathed/sharp/hooked - for cutting cannot compete as killing/butchery usage with the felid equipment - is likewise studiously ignored.

    I even asked for physiological evidence that fat reserves intended
    for cold weather metabolic/wintering over purposes gave any athletic
    advantage for fighting/subduing prey.. this too was brushed aside..

    Questions as to biting effectiveness via jaw strength & dentition form
    specialisation advantages for body/bone penetration by true carnivores
    again, ignored..

    & eye/cerebral capability too, from size/view range acuity, to effective speed in locus of reaction computation - even to cellular photon reaction time & neuronal complexity in operational function interface..
    - in other words strike speed/accuracy coordination - is also a notable felid advantage over bears.. & again - duly ignored..

    Laughably amateurish really..
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2015 at 03:02

    Yeah, I know...they even hold themselves higher than experts, they use mis information and even lies, they have posted the same 4 pics and only 3 or so accounts of bears decapitating, slashing, lacerating abilitys...I've asked them countless of times where is the source that shows the bear with a big chunk missing from what they said the claws did by another bear hundreds of times, (since that bear is the same bear that fell off the water fall), I would assume the jagged rocks on the bottom did it, as none of them showed exactly where in the video the bear slashed the other brown bear and did the damage himself. Even after questioning it, they then post it again anyways with no proof and say look at what the bears claws did...theres no sense, they arnt there to prove anything, they just wanna hear them selves talk like they have Ph.ds on studying bears, when in reality they havent seen a bear just once in there entire lives.

    Lets see a counter to what some real experts have to say about the diamond cutting sharpness of the bears claws they boust out to have: (how the bears claws are known as blunted)
     
     
     
     
    books.google.com
    Cla iws Black Bear on-retractable claws, fixed in an outstretched position, are a bear's more specialized tools used for ... of other bears; fore- claws four to five inches long; hindclaws shorter and more curved than foreclaws; claws more blunt
     ...
     
    books.google.com
    claws. American black bear Color black, grayish brown • short and round • Thick at base • Tapered to sharp point ... 4 to 5 inches long • Color dark, almost black • Claws more blunt than those of other bears • Longer and narrower than those
     
    books.google.com
    Such marking works not only as a visual signpost that other bears can readily see but also as a olfactory marker since the bear leaves behind a generous helping Bear claws are blunt and two- to three-tenths of an inch wide near their tips.
     
    books.google.com
    Brown bears are massively built and heavy bodied animals. They have a ... claws 217 Brown bear claws are longer and straighter than those of American black bears.221 The claws are blunt, while those of a black bear are sharp. Adults have
     ...
     
    books.google.com
    Black bears have sharp, curved claws, one and a half inches in length, while the more blunt grizzly bear claws, long and straight, are roughly the length of a human finger. Black bears are Roman-nosed. Grizzlies have a concave face and
    a ...
     
    books.google.com
    Robert Whitehead, James G. Teason - ‎1966 - Snippet view
    The bear's claws are fixed; that is, they cannot be pulled back into a sheath as can those of a cat. Because the claws are long, blunt, and non-retractable, and because the animals have great weight, it is difficult for most full-grown bears ...
     
    books.google.com
    They have stout limbs and heavy, blunt, nonretractable claws, and they are plantigrade. Reflecting their omnivorous ... Most of the evolutionary history of bears took place in the Old World, starting in the Miocene. The genus Ursus dates from
     
    books.google.com
    ‎1968 - Snippet view
    The older and larger bears have the longest front claws, and some of these may be twice as long as the claws of yearling cubs. ... Some grizzlies have very long claws that are strongly curved; others have claws that are rather short and blunt.
     
    books.google.com
    Natural history - ‎1840 - Read
    The Bears usher in the section, and may be considered as forming the connecting link between this family and those of the herbivorous mammalia; their claws are strong, blunt, and well adapted for climbing or digging, but not for lacerating
     
    books.google.com
    William Ashworth - ‎1992 - Snippet view
    THE KINDS OF BEARS 5 5 the Arctic tundra. As bears go, it is medium-size, ranging from 200 to 800 pounds or so in weight, with most individuals weighing between... bear claws are short and blunt, and are almost always dark-colored, ...
     
    books.google.com
    Its claws are short, much curved, very stocky at the base, and taper rapidly to a sharp point. ... digging implements than the long, slightly curved, blunt claws of the grizzly; but they are perfectly adapted to the uses to which their owner puts
    them. ...
     
     
    The lions claws are retracted for a reason, to keep it sharp when it is needed to lacerate. But he doesnt even need it in that fight, if both lion and bear are declawed, the lion would still beat the bear to death with his paws, with blunt force, sadly for the bear his wrestling skills would do little for him other then get him self punched and swatted to death from a fighter who doesnt like to waste his time in the clinche or embrace. Who'd win? A guy with a long butter knife or a guy with a small sharp pointed shank.
     
    African lions fighting bears would seem to be more difficult to find documented, because they can only meet up accidentally in zoos, menageries, circuses and some dumb pit fights, but I think with leofwins help we can get more lion v bear accounts...the puma ones are easy, since they co-exist. As for this bear-fan rant of weight trumps everything...I think too that there can be an abundant amount of records showing lions killing giraffes and elands, even alone...(which is a feat that can hardly be surpassed by tigers/bears in terms size of their prey) Lions aka predators that kill giraffe of 16+ feet tall and eland who that animal can get up to 2 tons = 4,000 lbs...or...bears, who are occasionally killed by 100-200 lb range pumas....this bear size who is nearly half as tall as a giraffe and half the weight of an eland makes the size difference between lion and bears or as they say massively, big and huge bears who dwarf lions (only in size near the rump and stomach rant,) sounds a bit weak to me.
     
    Shortly after the second night's vigil a leopard was found dead in the neighbourhood. It had apparently fought with a lion and its back had been broken by a blow from the lion's paw.
     
    the other one
     
     
    This would suggest that tigers are afraid of lions and sometimes lions have conquered tigers in the wild of india (but not always):
     
    I think thats a fair assesment, since how can the lion finish the tiger always, the tiger would run away more times to survive.


    Edited by Prime - 03-Jun-2015 at 19:58
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2015 at 23:56
    More great stuff there, thanks Prime..

    & over at Carnvora, I suddenly find myself effectively blocked from posting..
    Apparently pointing out the stupidities there - on another forum (here) - is an offence!

    Interestingly tiger-fan Indian writers are now claiming that the lions of the Gir forest
    were never natural to India/Asia but were specifically imported only a few hundred years
    - as a private sporting game resource on behest of/by the local Poohbahs!

    This, in spite of recent  DNA genome analysis showing that the Barbary lions kept
    by English Kings at the Tower  of London some ~700 years ago are in fact closely
    related to the Asiatic lions, & also quite distinct from sub-Saharan lions..

    Since ancient writings & graphic art-work representations of North African Middle Eastern/Asiatic
     lions are far from uncommon, it seems the Indian tiger-boosters,
    - even supposed 'scientific' writers - are being fairly shameless..

    At least it should stand the Morocco Conservancy in good stead as a resource for their project
    to re-introduce Barbary lions to the wild there..




    Edited by J.A.W. - 04-Jun-2015 at 00:02
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2015 at 03:07
    Yeah, on searching for some of the data we have now on lions/tigers of india, I came across alot of beyound stupid remarks of what some people of india theorize of asiatic lions being non-native or not as old as tigers, some go to further extants to mock his presence in the past, these are actually the same writers who state a single tiger can slay a city of lions, quite moronic as if a single tiger could take on just two lions an win, let alone a pride of 20+... like some super ninja... They are two sided, some back the lion others tigers. To me the people of india seem to have been too peiceful,  like the buddist, this gave way letting british huntsmen have there way with their wildlife an led to a massive out break of killing lions. Alot are throwing a fit for having gujurat trying to bring back lions as the national animal, who according to many like kailash and mitra, lions were already rulers there for the past 2,000 years, I've also seen tons on google books showing what they highlighted of jewelry, coins, statues, reliefs, artifacts and more of lions with manes in india spanning in every century towards BC times. When tiger supporters refute it, they always try to make a statement of how powerful the tiger is over the lion, so obviously it has nothing to do with facts and just how much they are bias for there own crap.
     
    To say tigers drove the lion out is just retarded, all that is on record for all to see shows the lion would smash the average tiger, its being debated back an forth in india, but the ulterior motives is deeper than whats on the surface, most are saying the lion being back on the national animal status would damper the tigers conservation efforts...???...which animal is more dire right this moment specifically in india? The asiatic lion...not the tiger, who has some 2,000 just in india, theres only 500 asiatic lions, yet most are cubs, theres less than 200 males in all of indias wild, c'mon give me a break, if the hunters a hundred years ago was allowed to go back to hunting asiatic lions they'd be gone in a week, since one hunter alone killed 300 adult lions. Its not all british, most of india is to blame too, since if gujarat could bring them back from 20 to 500 just by themselves, than each district and or state could have done it.
     
    According to there historical distribution, over 15 states had them, on basic thats 500 per state, 500 x 15 is easily 7,500 extra lions that should be around, I dont wanna hear this crap they couldnt survive....other than man, what the hell can kill off a pride of lions? Nothing. They cant even be supressed as much in india like africa, since all india has is wild dogs and no spotted hyenas who would wreck the tiger population 10/10...since majority of the time leopards and cheetahs survive by either running or jumping in trees, india has just small solitary striped hyenas. In every conservationlist book noted, they state lions roamed all the way to uttar pradesh an towards bengal, and the main reason for disappearing is because of over hunting:
     
    Hunters could dispatch 30+ lions in one hunt at a time (due to the fact they are always together)  compared to 1 or paired tigers at a time. Lions should by simple logic also populate the fastest out of big cats as well, (if they arnt killed by humans or natural disasters) lions have the most fastest growing system of all big cats, a male tiger would mate a single tigress and have 3 at a time per season, a male lion would have acsess to the pride and can have cubs with each of the 12 lionesses, thats 12 x 3 = 36 cubs per mating season, 36 x 5 years of ruling, each male lion would then have a 150 cubs born per life time, (and thats a average sized pride not a super pride of 30+), one lion named Leo in captivity with dr bruce had 50 cubs with only...one female... in a short while before passing on:
     
    Lions can grow in quanity so fast in some zoos they have to put down majority of the ones they cant find homes for since they cant feed them hundreds of tons of meat a year. So theres no logical reason other than man over hunting them, a natural disaster, or a loss of all food resources should the lion not be plentiful, he can survive in the desert something hardly any tiger, bear leopard or jaguar can do, where theres almost zero food around, and india has lots of cattle and wild-live stock, do to the fact a big portion of india is vegetarian due to religous and spiritual stuff, plus india doesnt have two of the main herbivore-lion-killers, the black death aka cape buffalo, and hippos who would destroy a bear who comes for one of there salmon water searching ventures of or just the tigers love for swimming an alternative to beating the heat, pretty much why lions steer clear of the water, lions go up against the toughest eco-system challanges of any predator and yet they still thrive.
     
    In those type of scenarios of dire numbers of only 200 males, conflicts shouldnt even be allowed to happen, they should be trasnlocated far away from rival male lions, mainly because they will kill all the cubs and juvis in that area. These people who say a tiger is credited to driving the lion out have no more say, these people in jeolousy probably killed there share of lions in spite, but now the lions arnt being watched by only gujarat, with the internet news the lion is being watched by the whole world, so no more B.S stated or propagandist can be inflicted on lions in spite of their bias of tigers...are these people serious about lone tigers holding there own with lions? Look whats happening in this era:
     
    Do they think the tiger fairs well against that type of combativeness coming back his way? Once the lion starts making grounds in other places out of gujarat by natural or translocations...and monitered, it will show just how well they are at surviving against non-man-made threats. I think gujarat has the right to keep there lions, they earned there keep without the help of the thousands of tiger conservationlist campaigning for promotion of awareness or other states...if they dont want to wait for the gujarats consent of gaining more numbers first, then they should try salmonis approuch an slowly teach captive zoo lions to venture/hunt for them selves little by little until they catch on (while monitering them) like salmoni did with the two tigers in africa. Any ways, barbary lions probably dont exist any more, some might look like them, but until we get some dna samples, espeacially to have been noted to have dominated the roman arenas, barbary lions must have had a huge impact on the europeans to have every major flag, symbol, totem and healdric sign of that continent with the lion on it, which would explain why the british wanted to make a name for themselves by killing the King of beast in india nearly wiping them out, to gain this roman-ized feeling of superiorty. But as for the barbary, who knows how big and grand he was, these big maned captive lions could be only a fraction compared to how powerful the Barbary was. One did afterall kill a brown bear with one blow...lol


    Edited by Prime - 04-Jun-2015 at 03:45
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jun-2015 at 03:58
    For sure, the respect & fear humankind have had for lions.. with 'Lion hearted' as a tribute.
    ..while until recently regarding the stealthy solitary cats as 'sneaky & treacherous'..

    In the C19th, with the advent of quick-firing weapons, 'Great White Hunters' ran amok..
    ..wantonly mass killing for 'sport', & what better prize than a mighty 'King of Beasts'..

    You are right - just as in prehistoric days, wherever real lions strode, bears cowered away from them..

    Bears could not compete in Africa against pride lions, (or groups of hyenas)
    & even in sparse North Africa, Atlas brown bears were dominated by Barbary lions..

    Indeed, until humankind developed weaponry which matched lions, such as long shanked sharp axes,
     & spears , plus ropes for snares, ligatures & nets, they lived in fear of such cats,( esp' lions in prides)
    - as non-human primates (& bears/canids) - still do to this day.

    Clearly, as you correctly indicated Prime, unless tigers also formed prides, they would be driven from any areas the lions wished to dispute with them for, just as with bears & other lesser predator competition.


    Edited by J.A.W. - 04-Jun-2015 at 04:01
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 00:21

    Yeah I added in a couple more accounts of lions killing giraffes and crocs above, and put in several other accounts of pumas killing bears too. Thats quite amazing that lone lions can kill bull giraffes, a animal that can be at times 20 feet tall and 4,000 lbs or so...

    https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19581119&id=dwIqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iCYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4491,5356028&hl=en

     
    What do bears kill that stacks up to the height and weight of that? Nothing. Hence the weight advantage of bears plays little to no role, espeacially this intimadating things bear fans seem to wave around alot, like a 10 foot tall bear is more intimidating than a 20 foot tall giraffe double the bears weight on average and at max.
     
    That book by Anne Innis Dagg, had around almost 1,000 giraffes documented killed by lions by different biologist, and stated that lions dont really target any age group, weak, sick, old, young or prime, its about as good as a random encounter as it gets, if a lion is hungry and sees a giraffe, it doesnt matter from small/female or bull, they will attack it...jesus christ, almost a 1,000? Wtf did bears ever been documented killing via monitered an accounted for? Probably a thousand berries, 1,000 clams, and a 1,000 fish, lol How does that transmute into predatorial capabilitys? Bears aint anything compared to lions in terms hunters/fighters, not even tigers have anything on what lions do rutinely to giraffes, tigers main prey is 50-100 kg, this excuse of tigers are hard to track and moniter is as poor as it gets, they've been around for milliniums, an yet no verifications if they rutinely take things even half the sizes of giraffes? The little records there are of tigers and bison have the bison nearly every single time kill a tiger in a fair grounds, even two tigers at once.
     
    C'mon peters site wildfact is filled with almost a 100 pages on a single tiger like B2, wagdoh, and what ever, yet where is there feats of killing guars, rhinos and elephants? They dont exist, and most either are rare or the accounts are transformed from something its not, the same way all depictions of saber tooth cats attacking mamoths who are stuck in tar pits, thats probably the same things tigers are doing to small rhinos, with small weapons via short blunted horns, who are just embersed in some type of traped and hindered scenario. Pit a tiger, two tigers, or even 10 against a bull white or black rhino who has a 2-3 foot long sharp horn and the tiger would lose 11/10 times lol.
     
    Or how about this one:
     
    and non-catering camps and road grading in the Luangwa riverine area. None
    of the wildlife populations suffered any harm as a result of the flooding. The
    Biologist reported a case of lion having killed a young elephant of indeterminate
    age.
     
    I noticed there was no...S... on that lion, as in one lion took down a juvi elephant, not bad eh.
     


    Edited by Prime - 06-Jun-2015 at 05:59
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 06:20
    Thanks again for your fine links Prime, much appreciated..
    But actually, to be fair, Prime - there are some remarkable tiger predation clips on youtube..

    In one, a tiger attacks a large bull gaur & controls it by the snout - to smother point..
    & another an even more bold tiger attacks a grouping of water buffalo..
    .. rapidly striking one animal down, KO-wise & then contending with the other angry bovine beasts..

    Much as its tawny brethern do for a living elsewhwere ( but naturally, not perceived as so 'remarkable')..

    There are some shots of tiger nuclear family groups on the prowl, & of mother & nearly mature cubs,
    predating on/taking & consuming  a bear, cooperatively too.

    Given that lions & tigers are so similar under the skin, it seems reasonable to assume that
    the predatory characteristics would be fairly interchangable, but as it stands, the lion does
    hold the trump card with its bold temerity & confidence in its powers against other animals,
    - as well as its adaptations (mane) & habitual like of fighting, even for its own sake..
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 08:18
    Two videos? One of a juvi guar with the tiger nearly as big, and the other with the tiger chased off? When theres a hand full of biologist that add up to nearly a thousand guar like lions have giraffes, then it will be remarkable, other than that, I find a leopard diving into a herd of wildebeeste and killing two simultaneously more remarkable. And bears? Nothing a 100-200 lb puma couldnt handle. lol In that case of interchangeable, we are talking about the same animal with two different professions/personas, since two humans of any color, race and ethnicity is almost imposible to differ between bones if you had ten of each nationality all jumbled in the same place, but if one is a spartan elite, and the other...a potter. Than that changes everything. lol
     
     
    But we'll see, an accumilation of more info will be forth telling.  
     
     
    Contrary to report, lion will attack adult hippo, and will attack them regularly and
    successfully. I could understand how a super-pride might form in hippo country,
    for to deal with prey so powerful with minimum risk to the predator a pride 
     
    By virtue of their size hippo have very few natural enemies and mature animals
    can only be preyed upon by lion.
     
    No animal other than a lion tackles a fully-grown hippo — not even
    crocodile, which live in the water with it
     
    Everyone was eager to go out at night after supper to watch the lion in the
    process of a kill. We followed, slowly, in a jeep with our lights out, a lion who
    almost killed a hippo.
     
    Animals the size of adult hippos, rhinos and elephants are simply too big and powerful for any carnivore except lions
    Following up the tracks, they found a hippo killed by a lion
    about a mile north of the rice field


    Edited by Prime - 06-Jun-2015 at 15:33
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 16:26
    Yeah Prime, I think that the number of tigers that specialise in
    large prey types is few compared to lions.. but no doubt that tiger
    returned to his water buffalo kill, once its buddies had moved off..

    The boldness of lions shown in their willingness to risk it all
    - sometimes for reasons - that may seem to us..
    ..simply bloody minded & bolshy.. or perhaps - lion hearted..

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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 17:14

    Lion hearted indeed...I suggest you go back above an read the lions killing the giraffe accounts, one young male lion killed 2 bull giraffes in a weeks time. Risk it all? I would think so, the lion has an added element no other large predator has, his cubs...in the back of his mind he is not only trying to survive for himself, but he needs to provide all the nesicitys to his pride, or soon to be pride. This adds more gameness all around.

    The number of tigers that specialize in large prey? How much are those? 500+ already wouldnt be able to do it being only as small as a leopard via sundarband, the rest are sumatrans, indochinese, javan ect, and they dont hunt large prey, thats another 500 or so, and the siberians, do they hunt large 1,000 kg animals? No, so then so that leaves only around a 1,000 or so tigers that could...not are...be hunting large prey, compared to its species over all I'd say 500 kg animals taken are what would be called rare...even if you isolate only the biggest population, I still yet to see any evidence they kill the bulls in prime of life of buffalo, guar ect...if you compare that to the average male lion, the tiger has little to show for, almost all male lions bring down big animals atleast once in there lives. Even out of  2,000 tigers, tigers would be lucky to bring down a 500 kg animal, there main food source is chital, sambar and blue bull. Not all that remarkable.

     
    This whole bit that tigers are more active comes from a misinterptation of why he does so, he is more active because of wild dogs constantly chase them around and even kill them, so he cannot afford to be dominant in one area like the lion has the leisure to. As a lion can sleep out in the open and no other predator alone or in groups would risk attacking him, due to pride living, the tiger being alone is at risk from pratically everything else, from packs of wild dogs, snakes, bears, leopards ect.
     
    I for one now, am impressed of how often a single lion can frequently kill a bull giraffe...transmuting that into fighting skill, I would say that benifactors his physicological and physical state, something that kills another animal 5 x his height and weight rutinely is no dought a power house, do grizzly bears do this? No, they dont even hunt for atleast 6 months within a year an are only hibernating, that would show another reason why the bear is built with a fatter/larger lower half, and the lion built with a more muscular/larger frontal half...for frontal combat.


    Edited by Prime - 06-Jun-2015 at 17:19
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 17:41
    I do wonder how much credence can be put into those stories
    of tigers being preyed upon by dhole dogs.. that's certainly something
    I've never seen footage of..

    It seems unlikely that there would be any profit in it for the dogs..
    ..are they really that suicidal? Doubt it..

    & certainly, in Africa, the wild dogs fear lions.. who are invariably
    aggressive towards them - on sight..

    The life of the male lion, on being ejected from the pride on reaching maturity - & keeping himself fed ( or in a coalition with other bachelors) until he can usurp control of a pride himself, is often
    over-looked, & the skills he learns - are used as pride boss..

    There is a graphic video of a a pair of male lions coordinating
    an attack on a buffalo cow with her newborn calf..

    The notable attempt at a crippling spinal bite on the broad back of
    a buffalo, facilitated by the extensible hooked claws with grasping
    hold via powerfully mobile forelimbs would certainly shock a bear similarly attacked, as it does hyenas..

    Edited by J.A.W. - 06-Jun-2015 at 17:48
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 18:06
    Nothing to benifit? Survival of there clan is all the reason why its needed. When its just one opponent, the wild dogs can be just as lethal:
     
    Why didnt the hyena just over power the wild dog and use his vastly superior bite on it? Because animals feel pain too, they fear things in greater quanitys, they have doughts and weaknesses too.
     
    By the fact its repeated over on a hundred sources in each decade for 2 centurys worth with different sitings, that wild dogs kill tigers by hunters, natives and even scientist...than I have no reason to dought it. This is the added benifit of the pride, so that other animals must think twice or three times over before planning an attack, other animals arnt stupid, I would think they recongnize the destress calls, unification calls and war calls of lions to call there comrades for help, that alone would deter their cause to gang up on a lion/s...tigers are without this element as well, so a lone tiger is easy picking if they feel confident or is needed to hold there stance for protecting there own.
     
     
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    Posts: 320     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2015 at 22:36
    Well, Prime, I doubt that any African dog would be game to go nose-to-nose with a big cat which will quickly strike him senseless with a heavy sharp-clawed blow from either front paw..
    ..something a hyena cannot do..

    As for the seemingly apocryphal stories of dholes attacking/killing prime tigers,
    they all present as to be hearsay-type anecdotes of perhaps dubious validity,
    relating as they do such unlikely & macabre events such the tiger being torn to pieces - after destroying maybe a dozen dogs.. all oddly like a 'Chinese whisper' rather than an eye-witness account by a reliable
    informant, with actual evidence to verify it..

    In statistical terms alone, such a dhole pack could only afford to do that against 2, maybe 3 tigers, before ceasing to exist.. by attrition alone.. since surely, for every dog killed, there would be several markedly injured, too..

    & in Africa, a prime male lion appears to regularly cope with/intimidate virtually any number
    of far more dangerous hyenas, let alone dogs, so why would a prime tiger not
    cope with dogs too?



    Edited by J.A.W. - 06-Jun-2015 at 22:39
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    Posts: 301     		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2015 at 00:31
     
     
    You might be missing the concept of wild dogs vs tigers, it isnt a lets go make a name for our selves and see if we can bully, intimidate, drive off and kill a tiger as if they were spawned for that very purpose....no, wild dogs have been here just as long as any other living thing in there reigon and have only one job at task, to survive, they are capable of offensively and defensively holding there own with tigers with superior numbers, just as ants can take out insects hundreds to thousands times there size, its not a competition of who can kill who, but who can survive utilizing every aspect, attribute and statsitics they were allowed to have.
     
    Lions.......Have a social system no other living cat has...yes, no? In this social system they communicate, dont they roar, moan and call out every other hour to hour and day to day? Other animals hear this, if another human is fighting, I can tell, if another human is calling for help, screaming help help help, I can tell the difference, if another human is singing and whislting down the road zippy-de-do-daa, I can tell that difference too, we dont have to have advance and complex discussions about math, science, astrology, techology, gizmos, gadgets, tools and all that to recongnize simple things as distress calls, well animals....might not have all thet super interlect, but I would assume they can under stand distress calls of their own kind and some other kind as well. Lions.....have a socioty, they are like humans, they have this complexity and have similar attributes to waging war, governing each other, helping each other and fighting each other in a human like scenario. Smaller animals recongnize this and are just as weary of lions in this war mode, distress mode and unification mode to where if they dont have some type of similar cohesive challange to it, other than defending them selves, haveing a free meal or taking advantage of a immobile dying individual, than they wont bother.
     
     
    Tigers......dont....have...this. The end. ^_^
     
    Hence, other animals do not recongnize threats of other tigers aiding that one, tigers have no back up, no distress calls, no roars of cliaming land, no roars of wageing war, no calling for help or unification...so they're advesarys have no reason to further fear or respect them. You do know that respect goes both ways right? You have to give respect to get it, comparing what animal tiger/lion who kills other animals for lust, for no reason at all, for being known as cunning, ferocious, blood thirsty ect that no other animal will in term give that one respect, hence tigers kill more animals for no reason at all, they kill for fun...lions on the other hand has been noted by over literally a thousand books (which I came across in books of what is on hand so far and can confirm) to being MAGNIMIOUS, noble, kind, gental, forgiving and more which idlelizes Kingly qualitys, I dont keep calling the lion king just because I like lions, I call them King because alot of things he has are double'ly so of his persona and attitude similar to actual meaning and embodyment of a noble  and good king, unlike tiger fans who just want to call the tiger king because hes so-called bigger and wants him to win for some kaka-mimi childish reasons.
     
    As for your intial question, I think you already knew this, but what you want is just the accounts of first hand sources to prove the abstracts right as grand as video, thats all it really is, is people just wanna see the truth and nothing but it. Other wise we will be looking at a wall of text, and a infinite amount of opinions.


    Edited by Prime - 07-Jun-2015 at 00:32
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