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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers

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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
    Posted: 13-Jun-2015 at 19:22
Again, most sites are more focused on just showing photos of muscle built and weight figures, this will aid nothing to the debate...in terms of true comparisons catagories can be:
 
- Size comparison (should be common knowledge at this point, further evidence should be on video not 400 year old weight figures)
- Paw swipe comparison (feats of killing animals/opponents are better than pseudo-science calculations)
- Historical artifacts (since not all archaeologist finds/storys of history are just on text, egyptions have little to no text and all artifacts of pictographs/glyphs)
- Attributes Physically/mentally (should only be cited by Ph.d or hands on experince people not a book quoting another book)
- Historical accounts (all scenarios should be accounted for, even the ones that arnt fair to determine who'd likely out compete who in the wild)
- Experts opinions (should have a abstract or photo of them working/studying with both tigers/lions for credability)
 
 
Hence our opinions dont mean anything, it will be better to compile information of credible people and credible things more so fill up 100's of pages of things that wont probably be accepted in the means of science or common provable logic. The only discussion should be made is of discussing (if brought forth evidence) is credible or not or if you have different opinions about its substance...look at carnivora...it has literaly 4,000 posts, and yet in terms writting all those things down on a book it will only equal to, the tiger will win because hes bigger, faster, has bigger attributes of what we cherry picked, we have named less than 20 times tigers have killed lions, and less than 20 experts opinions...thats all it will be taken into account of a academic study and presentings the rest wont be wriiten down on as fact.....
 
That....wouldnt make even a one page book, not even a few paragraphs worth of combining all the sources of people they cited as credible. The one page of 7 or 8 on here would trump the entire lion vs tiger thread on carnivora...in terms cites, credability, quality and quanity...one page trumped 200+ this is the difference between substanance. We arnt here really to tell of there past history, there troubles, their trimphs in nature(although it would hlp us in terms leads of finding more conflicts), we are only here to discuss and share information on who would win in combat.
 
I havent been on team authority for a while, with only slightly more newer stuff added here, yet already we have exceeded more pages than whats on team authority, but with what? the added pages and over 30+ posts extra, nothing has been contributed. Again, if some here are just interested in posting a photo of... look at how big this tiger is compared to any lion...with pesudo-facts...than maybe you should stay on sites like wildfact, or carnivora...as it contributes nothing to the debate.
 
 
CONCENSES
 
If you cant find any historical artifacts grand enough to match the hundreds portraying lions winning, than buuu huu, maybe because tigers never won as much as you wanted them too, if you have proof that majority of the tigers are heavier, than post videos of them being weighed, other wise its just speculation upon cherry picking with most likely inaccurate weighing and measuring methods. If you have experts opinions and accounts, post the root sources or actual documents and in well correct order. Instead of reading hundreds of posts on youtube or other forums of complete dribble, how about reading up in credible places where answers are held. Atleast that way you can actually cite or link something of value.
 
 


Edited by Prime - 13-Jun-2015 at 19:46
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2015 at 19:36
That is largely true P,

The opinionated ( but self-convinced teen-minds & so, unable to be swayed by actual objective data) posters on Carnivora are an embarrassment to themselves, but are too deeply deluded to recognise it..

That cats have the capability to inflict severe, indeed fatal injuries
to their prey & rivals - is a fact..

& that lions & tigers are so close physiologically, that temperament,
spirit & learned skill also comes into the equation.

However, as you rightly summarize, the lion's physical adaptations (mane) & lifestyle manner - do certainly give it the edge in regular domination - over its tiger cousin - in real terms, as is clearly shown by examination of the historical record..

& ill-founded fan-boy notions, or votes - do not alter this fundamental truth..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2015 at 20:21
Yup, even Clyde beatty knew this, he even stated polls had almost completely favored the tiger, he also noted that entire books have been written about how tigers are unbeatable, were noted as invincible one on one, that when lions and tigers fought tigers always won, in his days only books was around and people like pro-f**king-joke samuel haughton was the only people publishing books about conflicts between the two in a scientific manner (or more now days known as pseudo science), his book along with many others is actually quoted on over 200... 18th-19th centurys books, about how he mentioned and high-lighted that tigers always won in the romans (pure mis-informing and bullshit), how tigers are vastly stronger than lions (lied that it took 9 men for a tiger and 5 for a lion, when it only took 4 men for that tiger), that lions are actually cowardly, are not noble and are more of a pest and humbug, that in every menagerie or fight incident that tigers always won from india to rome, to america (yet only cites martial and edmonds menagerie)...this guy is a f**king joke, he was one of the biggest bias chumps out there who based everything on lies and fallacys, which spawned hundreds of more books that were shown to thousands of people who now believed in that bullshit and spread that bullcrap.
 
Just like now, we have jackjacksonj aka pckts, who couldnt handle the truth...as hes out of this world f**king bias that he had to make his own site with over 500+ fakes and repeated things on it. Clyde beatty broke the tide, he shattered everything with...born of experince...he even almost once favored the tiger since all the pseudo books were just too one sided an after chapman the researcher told him that he thinks a tiger would win, even knowing lions could kill tigers in gang fights or female tigers who tried to kill him with nero, prince, louie and others saving his life and nearly or did kill the tigers, he gave in an held the opinion that a male tiger would win against a male lion in 1932...in 1933 when those 3 one on ones took place for the big cage, he was convinced that the lion is the superior...and it showed truthful year after year he kept losing tigers and hardly any lions, then boom bosstweeds came around and then he was dead convinced, he said a lion can whip a tiger every day and twice on sundays too. If that last acount I found in 1955 is not prince, than clyde beatty lost near 60 tigers killed by lions, and less than 4 of lions by tigers.
 
You cant have a verdict on something you dont know interms hard evidence, that would be illogical, as pckts and all the tiger lot chumps tryed to character assisnate Clyde beatty, as beatty was truthful to what he saw there and then, he often would be undecided in the beggining because hes not god, he doesnt know everything and he sometimes would see exceptional tigers hold their ground or do well...why would he have to be definitive or 100% correct right off the back? He, compared to his life experince was a rookie at that point in terms experince overall, they just wanted beatty to favor the tiger as a verdict, hence they had to photo shop documents and swap the words that he favored tigers in general an not lions, thats why on word press they stated clyde beatty is the ultimate source that proves the tiger is superior XD XD XD thats why they quote his tigers like chester or rajah yet they leave out the mountain of accounts where his lions beated up or killed his tigers...just straight up pathetic. These people like pckts wanna give or go straight to the verdict and say the tiger will win without having seen a single real fight in front of him in his entire desperate and pathetic life, he hasnt studied them in the wild, he hasnt seen them in zoos like hes been lieing about the trainers side with the tiger, he hasnt a f**king clue even of tigers personalitys and qualitys, he just hugs his imaginary song of eye of the tiger and thinks that song has anything to do with what real tigers do. And goes around and insults thousands of people of who'm any one disagrees that the tiger isnt some sort of diety or god or invincible in a fight.
 
If I'm wrong, than lets see someone prove it, if he isnt a liar, a peice of shit and a f**king wako with a 1,000 aliases, then why did he have to make up so many fake, photo shoped, twisted and bullshit lies? Because pckts...of all people, knows who is the true King of beast in combat...the mutha f**kin lion.


Edited by Prime - 14-Jun-2015 at 00:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2015 at 22:30


Jaw while both lions and tigers are similar and some specimenes will look that way. You have to actually see dozens of specimens to make an accurate determination of their differences in anatomy.  It is not just the mane, I have personally talked to an experienced trainer who works with both, and he told me, anatomy, character, personality, lions and tigers are completely different. The biggest difference Ive seen, is tigers are longer often, thicker forearms, but much slighter in the upper back and whole frame and hind legs. Lions are often condensed, thick necks and shoulders, stout bodies, much more muscular on the upper parts of their frames where the back muscles are. The hind legs of lions also often will be stronger and more muscular. The skulls are different too.

And Prime I agree, I wouldn't be trying to figure this out if I didn't think Beatty was telling the truth and there was a real answer. And its hard not to believe Beatty when guys like Bert Noyes, Peter Taylor, Bert Nelson, Terrell Jacobs,Dave Hoover, and Marco Peters back him up completely. And have a similar vast amount of experience. And all those guys were adimate that the lion was tougher, they didn't just lean that way.

And yeah, Beatty had the footage of Caesar fighting Bobby, he mentioned he privately showed it to friends sometimes, to show what a fighter the lion was. If only we could get that reel.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2015 at 22:51
Indeed Lc, there are differences, as there are between the tribes of sub-Saharan Africa, such as height of pygmy vs Masai - even where no Neanderthal genetic presence is to be found..

Liger & Tigon crossbreeds show how close these - recently evolved largest of the living cats - species really are.. notwithstanding social environments, learning & individual personality factors..

But many thousands of generations favouring a particular set of lion characteristics will tell, on an overall basis, this is a fact..

& these advantageous characteristics - which have been laid out here by those who know, give the lion the win, in battle.. most often, as we have seen..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jun-2015 at 23:29

What is more interesting is the asiatic lions accounts are popping in alot now, I'd like to see peter bring fourth all the data (specifically in accounts) that show tigers won more...the others are an inch of away of being false, made up fabrications, via the King of oude and the one in baroda aka vadodara...the king of oude is actually just nana sahib, (on record) he was sold to jamrach, (on record) that tiger killed one lion in london, (on record) that tiger did not kill 30 more in india, those who state it have no root source. And baroda is just as well ended where it started when it mentions the exact 3 days raj Rao attended it, we just have to ask a historian what Rao was doing on those specific days to exploit it, since 4 books stated he never attended any animal fights and completely disliked his predessors rituals and attended musicals. Which leaves us with what? The tiger that killed a lioness in calcutta...the one that the lioness was sleeping? Or kesri singh who staged fights (if you can call 2 smacks a fight) and 3 won due to submission, not death? There are hundreds of films of circus lions/tigers pawing each other, those are minor disputes, not fights...again... one...or two paw blows can hardly be considerd a fight. and let me guess the slew of people who said, that the asiatic lion prides were wiped out by lone super ninja tigers? XD XD XD

So just 4 fights, (3 non-deaths and 1 sleeping) WOW, thats convincing, guess thats why peter has to post entire pages of opinions and old records instead of just citing people of the combat-subject...because there hardly is anything of tigers winning in general...theres what of lions winning? Jamnagar (old but male), Argatala (female but she was the one who ambushed the lion), Nagpur (female vs female), Nadankanan (two on one, yet young vs adult), Surat (two equal sized and just pure f**king epic), Ganges-plains/river(another two similar sized and epic), bangalore (the tiger was bitten the worst in the throat), than you have people of indian blood...Kailash sankhala, Jam-sahib, Sanstri, Bhim singh, Shanka, dhotre ect...sounds like the asiatic lion has more info backing him in a fight than the mighty and un-beatable bengal.  
 
And we havnt even gotten started in asking any of indias experts, biologist, an historians and looked through their records.
 
hagenbecks place 1904:
 
 
joe benson acaris:
 
 
 
Gong back to comparing height and built (only when in the same shot) :
 
 
The hind limb proportions of both lion and tiger are similar, but the relatively shorter forelimbs of the tiger...Comparing limb bone lengths, it was found that the radius was significantly longer in the lion (about the same length
 
(asiatic lion)
The lion is higher at the shoulder but shorter in the body than the tiger
 
The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder height
 
His legs and claws resemble those of the lion, only the legs are much shorter in proportion to the size of the animal
 
the legs are rather shorter, ad the animal bends them more and has more of the snake like flexure of the spine when he walks
 
than even the lion himself ; it is much slenderer also in proportion to its size ; its legs shorter, and its neck and body longer.
 
His body is longer and more slender than that of the lion, and his legs shorter,
 
The second is the tiger, rather longer than the lion, but not so tall
 
The tiger stands lower on the limbs than the lion, and is thus proportionately longer in the body
 
Bigger is better A lion and tiger are almost equal in size.Tigers have longer
bodies than lions, but they are not as tall
 
but the lion stands higher at the shoulder than the tiger.
 
Aside from lions having relatively longer legs, it is virtually impossible to tell these two cats apart without their skins
 
Although the lion is not our number 1 big cat, it is the tallest
 
Lions are largest of the African big cat species. The lion is the tallest of the felines
 
The lion is part of the 4 big cats known as the genus Panthera, which includes ... It is the tallest of all known cats reaching a height of 5 feet 5 inches
 
Bengal tigers (panthera Tigris Tigris) are smaller than the Siberian tigers. A male
stands between 2 and 3 feet tall at the shoulder.
 
Andrew howe stating the lion under the mane has a huge hump of muscle at the shoulder that surpasses the tigers:
 
 
Even beatty stated this, and he worked with 2,000 lions and tigers, what scientist has ever worked with or dissected 2,000 lions and tigers? Lions dont just have longer limbs, they have bigger everything in the front, bigger and more roubust shoulders, bigger paws, bigger skulls and head, longer limbs,bigger and more impposing appearance from the mane, heavier arms both bone and muscle...people thinking the tigers front legs is bigger and more bulkier is again, due to the illusion he is shorter and already longer, which would make it appear thicker, while the lion has a mane, which would make the longer arms appear thinner.....hence lions strike much harder than tigers, when we compare who kills more animals both small, medium, large and massive, there is no illusion about that, now is there? Tigers have little to no feats to back up the, assumption, the claim, the missinformation that they have bigger front body parts. Hence most misinformed people who only compared photos of cherry picked ones where it shows a bulkier tiger, its never with a lion in the same shot, hence an illusion, when they are in the same shot, the tigers forearms looks either the same size or even smaller.
 
Weight wont play any part of tigers striking harder, a lion at 400 lbs would already strike twice as hard than a tiger at 800+ lbs.
 
The tigers lower limbs are measured against the lions at the wrist area: Lion looks thicker even though its longer:
 
Again here, the lionesses look to be just as thick as male tigers arms, obviously these are males, since tigresses are not nearly as tall as lionesses:
 
If something is both longer and thicker, than it must be more heavy.
 
what most likely what a asiatic lions mane would stack up against a tigers almost zero protection:
 
(a lion with a small mane, so short hes nearly bald)
 
yet you can see already how much more protection, how much more the lions appearance would be more intimidating. Even a maneless lion has a 50/50 shot aginst a tiger, a maned lion has all the advantage. In terms body size overall, tigers dont have that much of a size difference to brag about:
 
 
A lions mane is ridculously thick and long:
 
Thats the difference from the tigers shoulder and neck area:
 
The difference only walruses, smilodons and large foot long fangs could only able to get through, compared to the tigers neck area, where not only lion fangs have penatrated, but lionesses, tigresses, leopardesses and dogs.


Edited by Prime - 14-Jun-2015 at 04:58
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2015 at 14:54

Yeah its known that in endurance animals like dogs the lower radius is longer then the ulna.  This increases endurance in trotting and traveling. No doubt this is why the lion differs in this way then the tiger. Some of those pics you showed at Laceys show I think are female tigers, so to be fair we should show male tigers lower limbs next to the male lions. If you look at dogs legs or hyenas the radius is also very thin, again this increases endurance. A stalky shorter lower limb will decrease endurance I believe. Male lions not only fight, but they spend time chasing out invaders for miles long, and patrolling miles of territory, as well as competing against hyenas who have superior endurance.  The lion needs a design that will give it more stamina, an exhausted lion would be a dead lion quickly on the open plains. And from what Beatty said, the tiger tires far faster then the lion.  I believe some data does show lions with equal forearm girth vs tigers of the same weights.

Here is a decent forearm of a lion beating a tiger in Asia.



This pic pretty clearly shows the condensed thick dense design of the lion.  To see these cats in person gives a far better understanding though of seeing the pics.

image


A young lion not even full grown with little mane showing.


Edited by Lion crest - 14-Jun-2015 at 15:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2015 at 17:07
Zoo disaster in Tiblisi, Georgia on the news..

..with massive floods drowning animals in their cages & floating some out,
..including lions which swum out of their open topped enclosure..

Lets hope they can be rescued without being harmed..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2015 at 17:36
Please, edit out that post, this isnt the place for it, nor do I wish to hear of these type of tragedies.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2015 at 17:51
There is worse, if you google it..

Zoo in Ethiopia killing their rare Abyssinian lions due to low funding,
& yet with a mindless refusal to send them overseas alive - since they are a rare national treasure!

& in wealthy Denmark, the Copenhagen zoo is killing its lion cuubs due to space reasons, rather than sending them elsewhere too..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 02:22
Hey lion crest, check this out...a small fight from beattys wife, a lion named big jerry and a big tiger named frankie where harriet had to stop the lion when he attacked the tiger:
 
Sounds like the tiger got his life saved by big jerry.
 
As he states here, its the lions are the ones that start the fights:
 
(1985)
Our records show the presence of groups of tigers in an area and we have found
on one occasion a tigress eating a male tiger that she had killed to save her cubs
from being attacked. Some of Corbett's descriptions on how a tigress teaches 
 
 
Tigress defeats a ambushing male tiger in the wild:
 
 
Long before dusk the tiger appeared. It was a big animal, much bigger than the pugmarks near the " kill " indicated. I was about to take a shot when I discovered two small cubs running by its side. I gave up the idea of shooting and watched them. Surely these were uninvited guests who had found a sumptuous feast. They started helping themselves with great gusto. They were in the middle of the feast when they were suddenly interrupted by the angry growls of another tiger which rushed out from behind the bushes.
 
The tigress whipped round and faced the newcomer. For a brief minute they sized up each other with bared teeth and fearsome hisses. Then they rushed at each other, clashed and disengaged. Again they faced each other, their heads at  an angle, growling and hissing all the time, stepping aside, parrying, watching and making passes. And then, in a lightning motion, the tigress pounced and knocked down her adversary. I could not see clearly what happened next, as they were partly hidden by the carcass of the buffalo.  After a while the tigress stood up, and then I saw the vanquished one lying under her on its back, with its paws in the air. They remained in this position for more than a couple of minutes At the end of this brief encounter the tigress, with a final hiss, stepped aside, and the defeated adversary slunk away into the gathering shadows of the forest
 
 
an unusual instance of a fight between a tiger and tigress, which could have been territorial or in protection of cubs. He writes: The Cachari villagers living a mile east of Jhargaon jheel, which is between three and four miles south of Rowtabagan railway station in Darrang, Assam, reported a terrific noise of tigers fighting on the night of January 30-31 last On the morning of the 31st they went to see what had happened, and in heavy grass found a dead tiger lying on its back, severely mutilated. An amphitheatre of flattened grass, about fifteen feet across showed there had been a great struggle.
 
 
 


Edited by Prime - 15-Jun-2015 at 07:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 05:48
I think it might matter if there is a male-female disparity..

Big prime male lions routinely intimidate the boss matriarch hyena,
even though she & her clan can hassle multiple lionesses..

Yet even female lions have more lion bolshy attitude than most tigers..

Perhaps a matter of hormonal/pheromone marker recognition at play..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 10:01
Originally posted by Prime

Please, edit out that post, this isnt the place for it, nor do I wish to hear of these type of tragedies.


If not here, where? Prime, I understand that the subject is disturbing, however, it is reality.

Many Zoos are not run or funded like they are here in the US.


"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 17:12
There are also tons of books which try to discredit the lions Kingly status, and stating that the lions attributed titles, like noble, magnimious, brave, ect are all false, that the tiger is moregenuine than the lion...lets see more on that subject:
 
 
So in the wild, its a natural state to be protective and magnanimous...this means its embeded in their genes, most think its a fluke, yet we can see through out time, lions have been recorded saving things who are attacked by stronger foes:
 
(2003)
 
When a tiger actually attacked Baumann in the cage during a performance, a lion
attacked the tiger
 
(1991)
 
"Getting bit by a tiger is worse than getting shot or stabbed, because there's so much pressure or force behind it," recalls Clayton Rosaire, who was once bitten on the top of the head while trying to break up a tiger tussle. "It's like getting hit by a car with nails." Kay Rosaire still bears scars from a live performance in 1991, when a tiger grabbed and dragged her by the hip. She was saved when a lion intervened and swatted the tiger away.
http://www.ticketsarasota.com/plus/
 
(1953)
 
Lioness saves trainer from tiger:
 
(1946)
 
Clyde's favorite is Louie, whose specialty is long distance leaping. Louie is the noted trainer's friend because Louie' once saved Clyde's life. A few years ago when Clyde was breaking in a new group of lions, and was hard at work on a barrel rolling lion, one of the tigers leaped from his high pedestal onto Beatty's back. The trainer was knocked across the arena, and, as he fell, the tiger shifted his attack, sinking his teeth into Beatty's arm. Then it was that Louie went into action.' He leaped from his pedestal onto the attacking beast.
 
tiger attacks trainer, saved by lion:
 
(1931)
 
Nero the lion had killed the feline tiger Pasha, in saving Beatty's life
(1930)
Clyde beatty saved by lion:
 
Does it t-il?  A generous Lion sees bottom of his den, this unequal fight.  Aiguilloné'par his big courage, it thrusts himself iron retirement, it throws himself on the Tiger, & the is anxious the throat. ....  The vast Forest resounds to the far of its terrible rugisfemens.  At last, it strong conqueror of the fight; the swiming Tiger in his blood is spread on the arene.  The Lion tramples it to the feet The Traveler, fearing the couroux of the Hero, asks him life: then the majestic Lion of an air looks at it, & it returns satisfies in his den.
 
(1899)
 
Lion saves trainer from numerous leopards, bears tigers 
 
(1839)
 
At Birr, in Ireland, in 1839, when ' a keeper of wild beasts, being within the den, had fallen accidentally upon a tiger, who immediately caught the man by the thigh, in the presence of numerous spectators; but a lion, being in the same compartment, rose up, and seizing the tiger by the neck, compelled it to let go, and the man was saved.' Numerous anecdotes of a similar character are recorded both by ancient and modern writers.
 
(18th century)
 
made a spring at Sylvenus, and just when his gun missed fire and he thought it all up with him, the lion leaped in the air caught the tiger by the neck, and killed it. he said after that he never could be induced to take the life of a lion, the kindest and gentlest of wild beast
 
 
You still think that these artifacts are based on nothing? Or are they actual documentations emited back then of lions saving humans, with nobility, mangnaminity and courage in india, rome, britain, ect:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Via ~ Aesop, John gay, Unwari-suhali, Richard westall
 
Now to the peple who seen the lion who he really was:
 
The character which the early naturalists have ascribed to the lion and the tiger,
— the former being represented by them as a noble animal, capable of the most
generous conduct
, while the latter is described to be without one redeeming trait
 
His anger is noble ; his courage magnanimous ; his disposition gratesul: he despises contemptible enemies, and neglects their insults when he might punish them. ... The lion is not cruel, since he
never kills more than he consumes : When satiated, he is gentle ; while the tiger,
the wolf, the fox, and others kill without remorse.
 
 
Lets compare who has the true elements of bravery or cowardice:
 
 
 
 
 
others are silent—that voice which tells of the strength and courage of the strongest and most courageous animal on the face of the earth
 
It has been frequently asserted that the lion is not the magnanimous and
courageous animal
 
In other words the male lion protects the family group while the female lion
provides for it.
 
  • books.google.com
    Male lions protect their pride and their territory from other lions. Male lions leave their scent on trees and bushes to tell others to stay away. Their loud roars are also a message to other lions.
  • books.google.com
    ... are the only cats with a mane. A mane helps male lions look big and strong. A lion's mane is not fully grown until the lion is 5 years old. The mane becomes darker as the lion grows older. A pride has its own territory. Male lions protect the pride
  • books.google.com
    Male lions protect the pride's territory from predators — and from other lions. This male rubs a tree to leave his scent on 8 it. That warns other males who might fight .5 him — or kill his cubs. LIONESSES TAKE THEIR POSITIONS Lionesses ...

    also a message to other lions.
  •  
    Most observers agree that the tiger usually attacks from behind...Though ferocious, they are cowardly
     
     
    The masks were given on the assumption that, as the tiger normally attacks from behind,
     
    We were the less apprehensive of any personal danger, knowing that the tiger is
    a very cowardly animal, and seldom makes an open attack
     
    If he becomes restless, as he is apt to do when not gorged with food, a shout is
    generally sufficient to prevent his breaking cover ; for, with all his ferocity, the tiger
    is a cowardly animal,
     
     
    The natives say that the tiger almost always attacks from behind,
     
     
    No one will trail a wounded tiger, for unlike other animals, it usually allows the
    trailing party to pass, then attacks from behind,
     
     
    It seems the tiger is a sneaky beast who waits until its victim turns his back and
    then attacks from behind
     
     
    The tiger, incapable of tolerating a stare, always attacks from behind
     
    This is the only 'defense' they have against the ferocious Bengal tiger, which, it is
    said, only attacks from behind
     
     
    The tiger, who is really a cowardly animal, retreats before the
    noise
     
    They are loners. In fact, after mating, a male tiger will abandon its mate and actually kill its male offspring later on if encountered in its territory


    Edited by Prime - 15-Jun-2015 at 22:24
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 20:08

    Yeah Jaw that is sad, they had to shoot a rare white lion at the zoo from the flood.  I actually just saw a rare white Timbavati white lion that is 3 years old now, its growing to be one of the biggest lions Ive seen in captivity so far, it seems to have a longer design, huge head wide and long, huge paws.


    Prime, amazing account there on Harriet Beatty.  Note, how she beat Jerry the lion off of Frankie, then she continued to beat Jerry into submission. No talk of touching Frankie, so in other words, she saved the tiger Frankie from Jerry.  So who's life was more in danger, you don't beat off the cat that is loosing.  Its obvious, and this is clear proof another tiger was saved here. Great find.







    Originally posted by J.A.W.

    Zoo disaster in Tiblisi, Georgia on the news..

    ..with massive floods drowning animals in their cages & floating some out,
    ..including lions which swum out of their open topped enclosure..

    Lets hope they can be rescued without being harmed..
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2015 at 23:13
    "They had to"..

    Yeah, so they say, but it would not surprise me if some corrupt
    bastards had already taken orders for the body parts - to be sold on for spurious Chinese 'medicine' (lion parts being freely substituted - as such - for tigers these days)..

    & the stupid thing is, this has happened before, the zoo is located on the riverbank, & will of course - flood - when the river rises..

    Why no emergency plan in place? 1/2 arses..
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 04:57
    Originally posted by red clay

    Originally posted by Prime

    Please, edit out that post, this isnt the place for it, nor do I wish to hear of these type of tragedies.


    If not here, where? Prime, I understand that the subject is disturbing, however, it is reality.

    Many Zoos are not run or funded like they are here in the US.
     
    Not in here atleast, there are several other animal threads like the one centrix made about animals in captivity, it will fit better in that catagorie...of course its saddening, I already mentioned alot of zoos have had this problem...there should be a back up...but with the web, atleast people are becoming aware of it, then some good people can start helping, its about awareness. Alot of conservations are steping up and lending a hand to where before there would be no help...africa has the largest amount of meat-produce of ungulates via migrations by the millions. More systems could be made to salvage any animals that are killed by fighting, even herbivores kill each other, more responce teams should be there to donate the remains of the loser to poor zoos, lions just need food and water and a little cleaning after, not millions of dollars, lions feed themselves and clean themselves in the wild for free.
     
    Bottom line is, the media is on it, and it needs the right type of conservationlist there, you dont want these over zealous animal rights guys there, they do far more harm then good, especially the ones who think they can just return to the wild by walking them out the zoo, getting zoos shut down kills almost all the captive animals who are dependent to man...I'm sure some people will go to their aid with better connections of conservationlist people seeing these type of news.
     
    More reintroduction to the wild programs should be made for lions that grow large litters over time (as that would help aid the population overall), as a captive lion hunting and killing a wild animal is free, paying for butcherd ones is expensive...alot of people dont donate jack, the hunter who shot the rhino payed up like 350,000 thousand bucks, what wild life conservationlist, or average person has donated even a few bucks? The real answer is probably none. That one guy donated more than hundreds of millions of complainers who just talk hot air... a single dollar from just a 100 million people could empower enough funds to completely fund the projects to save these animals...(people just need to start helping) yes it seems wrong, but killing one for that amount legally, beats behind the back and smuggling hundreds of dead rhinos who end up getting killed illegally, for only a few thousand bucks for the chinese...you have two choices, either go help them with your time or money, or have the goverment bomb the shit out of the chinese of the areas they find the rhino horns are being smuggled to along with any poachers.
     
    As for the lions, they just have to stop killing them, and start helping them by setting in more awareness. Iam not a tree hugger, but I am against killing for sport.. if something can benifit the animals, like that rhino guy did... (since back in the days a hunter could kill a 100 rhinos and not pay any type of compensation, due to no laws, now there are better laws)...kind of facking too late, but people are pitching in, again, if it can benifit the animals than it should be considerd, moniterd and reported world wide.
     
     


    Edited by Prime - 16-Jun-2015 at 07:47
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2015 at 16:02
    Heres one with beatty, you can see just how massive the upper body of the maned area compared to beattys neck, no tiger even comes close in those specific areas:
     
    There seems to be another film of a fight between a leopard and tiger:
     
    So thats two unseen ones.
     
    Rivalry between males is intense, and battles to take over a pride are frequently fought to the death, for which reason two or more males often form a coalition.
     
    However, tigers rarely fight. The tigers greet one another with special sounds that
    they make by vigorously inhaling air through the nose and mouth.
     
    Salmon (1932) described such an occurrence — the first recorded from Uganda — at Butiaba, where in August 1931 a lion, having killed a large crocodile measuring 11 feet, 7 inches...Pitman (1942) also reports that one afternoon visitors to the Murchison Falls saw a lion stalk and kill a crocodile on the opposite bank : the creature was so hungry that it continued to feed even when the launch crossed the river to afford a...According to Thomas & Scott (1949) lions have been known to kill and devour crocodiles on the Lake Albert flats....Stevenson-Hamilton (1954) heard one reliable instance of a crocodile being killed by lions in such an encounter...also states that crocodile killing by lions has been recorded as quite a normal occurrence on the western shore of Lake...
     
    Crocodiles often walk off with a buck that a lion is busy eating, though there is
    one case on record where a family of lions managed to kill a crocodile
     
    There are several instances of lions' killing adult crocodiles; one took place on an
    African game reserve in full view of a launch loaded with sightseers. In another, a
    crocodile attempted to steal a lion's kill and was itself slain by the big cats
      
    In 1977 in northern Kenya, Smithsonian paleobiologist Kay Behrensmeyer witnessed a lion with a
    newly killed crocodile seven feet long
     
    One night two lions prowling about our camp surprised a large croc about eleven
    feet long asleep on the shore. After a considerable struggle they killed and ate it
     
    While hunting on the banks of the Rufiji I put up a lion in some long rushes. I found that he had just killed a crocodile about ten feet long. He had evidently jumped on the crocodile's back and had apparently torn out its throat. The lion had started to feed on the firm flesh under the tail. The natives said that they had often known lions to kill crocodiles, but the lion would never eat the body but only the tail.
     
    I almost walked into two lions next to a carcass of a large crocodile that they had killed the previous night
     
    "There are documented cases of large crocodiles being killed by lions"
     
     
    Found it...and...Ho ho Hooly shit:
     
    George keller:
    Lesson of the Lion Tamers
    A large male lion named Regal had a dominating presence in the center ring, but that did not stop a puma in the same act from showing his resentment. At the end of every performance, as the big cats returned to their cages, the puma passed Regal’s pedestal and reached up, quickly clipping Regal on the leg. This continued for many weeks. As the lion tamer described: "I knew that real trouble was building, but I couldn’t think of any way to stop it. The animals are trained to leave the arena in a certain order; I couldn’t send Regal out first and so get him out of the puma’s way. I was afraid to interfere directly between the two animals; if I should chase Regal down from his seat, there almost certainly would have been a fight."Ultimately, "Regal decided to end the annoyance." "This time, when I cued the puma to go back to his cage, Regal was ready. Just as the puma was passing but before he had time to reach up and clip the lion, Regal leaned down and swung with such a haymaker as I have never

    (continued) The Top of the Food Chain F 67

    Before seen. He caught the puma on the side of the neck, striking with such force that he severed the head from the body as cleanly as though it had been cut off by a headsman’s ax. The puma’s body fell limp at the foot of Regal’s pedestal, and the head flew across the arena, struck the bars on the far side and rebounded, to drop on the ground like a spent ball… "Regal was still on his seat. I cued him to go to his cage, and he got down, stepped across the blood that was flowing from the puma’s body, and returned to his cage. His attitude was that of one who has performed a necessary, though perhaps unpleasant duty. He had removed an annoyance, and there was nomore to be said on the subject. When he returned to the arena for the next performance,he never even glanced at the place where the puma had been."

     
     
    Thats some crazy fackin strength....As for the accounts of no deaths, whats so far is...
     
    - Trainer Beatty: Sultan whips 6+ tigers, Duke whips 6 + tigers, Leo whips rajah, Prince whips trudy, Louie whips tiger
    - Trainer Ron: Notch an brother lions beat up tiger named Thai
    - Trainer Nelson: Lion named Jar head whip stigers, Seen many fights and the tigers lost.
    - Trainer Falkendorf: End of round 1 Prince whips mogul, round 2 Prince whips mogul again.
    - Trainer Bale: Tonto whips tiger
    - Trainer Leonida: Sultana whips 5 tigers at once
    - Trainer Terrell: Dutch whips tigers, Sheba whips two bengals, and other fights for film lions always won
    - Trainer Pete: Lion named emperor whips tigers
    - Circus: 3 seperate circuses lionesses whip bengal tigers
    - Animal keeper Blackburne: Lion whips tiger smashing him down 5 times
    - Animal keeper Jeong sangjo: Lion idenity whips tigers, lion Hong man whips tigers, lion Thinder bolt whips tigers, lion Venus whips tigers.


    Edited by Prime - 17-Jun-2015 at 20:13
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2015 at 19:20
    It is just too one-sided. The fight is not even fair. And still there are so many people looking to the other side and maintaining neverending discussions about the muscle definition of tigers and lions in ad hoc pics showing individual animals, the weight records of some hunters' ilusionary stories, and more and more again.
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    Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2015 at 20:01

    At first...yes, size should be mentioned, a few photos with both combatants in the same shot from different locations, and maybe lesser of some wild individuals just for muscle definition of prime individuals. Then the records of mass, height, length ect, we already know that from cited experts...on average lions are the bigger animal, (as a species), tiger fans not being able to handle this, so we have to hand select only the biggest sub-species, and than since tigers are still not larger via siberians have no wild info of the past 20 years breaching 260 kg and bengals having to factor in the sundarban ones makes them even smaller than siberians as a whole, so we have to cherry pick only a select reigon of bengals, which ultimatly is still on a stalemate terms of the largest lion reigons...so, basically alot of cherry picking must be done just to break off even and start the debate, now the size recap...lions and tigers average as the norm for a prime specimen as 400-500 lbs with tigers longer and lions taller, anything else is exceptional...for captive weights, both can reach 500-1,000 lbs but still is on the terms of man made design...hence nothing more can really be said on size.

    The answers will come from the actual fights.
     
    Asiatic lion
     
    A common belief in India, even amongst some Indian forest servicemen, is that the tiger came into conflict with the lion and was finally defeated by it and exterminated. Nothing could be further from the truth. Of the two, the lion is the older resident of India, and has a preference for a habitat which consists of open grassland and scrub or dry deciduous forest, whereas the habitat of the tiger varies from dry or moist deciduous forest with tall grass to wet tropical evergreen forest; the animal is also found in temperate montane forests of colder regions. The tiger readily takes to water, but not the lion. The tiger never existed in the Gir Forest There is no doubt that the lion came into clash with man and his livestock wherever he was found. Man has done his utmost to destroy the lion. However this attitude is now happily disappearing and giving way to a genuine concern for the preservation.
     
    Again, not every one thinks the tiger came into india first...both probably came in at the same time, from different directions, there is more idlelizing the lion in india in almost every thing, from artifacts, to mythology, war, spirtualilty, relations ect...lions are actually alot more tolerant of humans than any other big cat, the breeding station in gujurat is actually from a zoo, not wild...hence more zoos in india should be setting up breeding stations if they wanted to lead lions back into their wilderness. Look at the safaris in africa...some times wild lions, can be crowded with people around them:
     
    In terms of the asiatic lion, the lions being reintroduced back to the wild of like madhya pradesh and other places, shouldnt the lions be heavily watched from tourist and wildlife people alike? I would think more tourist and conservationlist around the asiatic lions would offer up alot more security then just letting them run free and not monitering them. Dont see why 10+ of the other states arnt already doing this, the lion dosent have to be supplied with endless land to start off with, they should atleast be confined to a certain amount for better monitering and getting use too hunting on their own. Why do they need the lions from gujarat, they should do that with their own zoo bred lions. They just need to be moniterd.
     
     
    Lion and tigers in the back ground on the same level'd platform, and the lion looks about a foot taller at the head:
    Arlette Gruss / Les Fauves | by max_martin
     
     
    Lions maned area, three times as large as tigers neck area:
    2006 24 december Kerstcircus Ahoy Rotterdam 083 | by mafo
     
    With thicker and longer front limbs and a bigger neck area
    2006 24 december Kerstcircus Ahoy Rotterdam 099 | by mafo
     
    Again, looking at the lions neck, this same guy couldnt even wrap both his arms around the lions neck:
     
    The african lions mane is so long and thick, I dont see any tiger or bear getting passed it easily, the tigers neck is only slightly larger than a humans:
    Circus Tiger Love | by MichelleAngelique
     
    I'd like to see just one tiger with a neck width the size of a fully maned male lion. Feel free to even use obese 900+ pounders, I still bet no one can.
     
     In the head/shoulder/neck area the tiger is just dwarfed:
     Bow before me | by theoneandonlynadine
     
     
     
    DSC_1191.jpg | by alex.sherwin
     
    The tigers seem shorter at the head, even with the fourth on struggling to raise the head higher, the lion is still taller
    DSC_1127.jpg | by alex.sherwin
     
     
     
    Lion big neck, tiger skinny neck
     
    State Fair | by aamanda_88
     
     


    Edited by Prime - 18-Jun-2015 at 05:36
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