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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers

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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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Housecarl
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
    Posted: 22-Jan-2015 at 19:43
For sure, at equal size the lion should be the heavier if its well built.  But, again, from what Ive seen and others, the lion is shorter in length, and this seems to be by design, like the hyena.  The hyena is the lions main competitor, and these animals living out in the open, have no cover to run too.  So this is why the rear quarters of the hyena are extremely short, their basically all front quarters and neck. This would cause them to be able to survive the attacks and fights against other lions.  Vice versa, the hyenas attack lions, often trying to bite them in the rear.  Lions attack other lions often trying to bite them in the rear quarters, as well as the front.  Again, it makes perfect sense, this is why, often, the lion's body is built with mostly a front quarter physique, neck and head; and shortened rear quarters.  A long bodied cat, out in the open in Africa would not adapt well.

This was a pretty stunning account posted by Cat don't know if you saw it, a tigress kills a huge powerful wild bengal, caught from the north, which would mean it was partly related to siberian tigers.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ST18940104.2.22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2015 at 22:33
I agree with the physiology, a longer animal has a harder time turning, it will be needed to exzert alot more energy to turn, if you use like a small 4 foot stick and wave it around like a bat, it glides through the air in all directions easily, but try and use a 10 foot pole like a bat, and it is much harder to control, harder to turn and sway side to side, this is why most natrualist thinks the rhino is more formidable than the elephant, because being much stockier and shorter he can as they say...turn on the dime.

I have posted that account of Princess the tigress killing the wild tiger several times, havent seen the video yet, cant watch vids as of right now, I'll catch it another time, no dought... but theres also a video I remember in a asian zoo of a tigress killing a male with a throat grab at like 5 feet away from the camera, there are alot of them that needs to be shown too. The tigers throat is the least protected out of lions, bears and tigers, the tigers fur around his throat is not even longer than your fingers, wild dogs have proved their elongated bodys and no protection around the neck and belly is the reason why they are killed by very small weight animals (or atleast not good at facing multiple foes in different directions) and his physiology is not suited for fighting like the compact lion is:
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/Bengal_tiger_vs_Wild_Dogs_about743.html


And the average bengals fur around his neck is around .5 to one inch long with siberians maybe 2-3 inches, again look at how big the body is, and how small the throat fur is:





Brown bears 3-5 inches tops



Lions 1-2 feet long (12-24 inches)



This is why in all shots with all large predators such as tigers/brown-white bears/lions, in the front...the lion will always look the biggest or atleast on par with 1 ton bears:



And this is how a 500 lb lion can look equally as large as a 1,500 lb bear, while a tiger at near same weight much smaller in height and size:


As most biologist states, the mane is designed to make him appear bigger than he really is without expensive weight to slow him down in movement or energy:





In many parts of that continent his dimensions considerably exceed those which have been mentioned as the average in the preceding part of this notice, the length being sometimes more than nine feet, and the height nearly five.

The mane of the lion is not confined to the upper part of the neck, but surrounds it on the sides, and even on the chest below. It is very closely set; and the hair of which it is composed is, in the largest specimens, more than two feet in length. This formidable clothing is with difficulty penetrated with any ordinary weapon. When the animal is prowling or using only his common powers of locomotion, in the use of which he is generally slow and majestic, this mane lies a considerable way over the back, hangs down over the shoulders, and thus protects the powerful muscles which put his destructive arms in motion from all changes in temperature, so that they are never stiffened by cold or relaxed by heat, even when he finds it necessary to prowl in the open deserts, either during the night or during the day.

There is a beautiful adaptation of nature in this particular part of the covering of the lion. On the African deserts, the heat, even far without the tropics, is excessive during the day; but during the night the cold is often much greater than would readily be supposed. During the night, those animals do not, and cannot run very far, because they are in so far benumbed with the cold, and that cold exhausts them on their inarch, as cold is observed to do with horses during a keen frost. The lion, however, protected he is by the mane, is subject to no such calamity. The muscles which he uses in his prowling march are strong, and they are so slowly used as not be in the least heated or fatigued, when those which ho has to use with greater effort while he springs, are secured by the thick covering of matted hair, which invests the neck, shoulders, and chest. The Hoie-s, in general, prowls less in the open desert thai the lion, and therefore the same kind of protection is not so necessary in her case.

Though the lion has probably more powerful muscles than any other of the mammalia, those muscles have not the same firm and rigid character as those of the eagle. The reason of this is, as it should seem, that their powerful action is much more momentary.

This figure is not in the attitude from which the tiger takes its spring, but in that of advancing in a low and crouching attitude in order to gain the distance at which he shall take it; and this is perhaps the best for displaying both the litheness and the symmetry of the animal. It will be seen in the figure, which is equally faithful and spirited, that the tiger is a much more symmetrical animal than the lion; that, though the fore paws are still stronger and more firm in their texture than the hind ones, yet, that the strength of the tiger is more uniformly distributed over the whole length of his body than that of the lion; and consequently, that he is much more an animal of chase.

The length of the tiger is rather more in proportion to the whole size of the animal than that of the lion, and the tail is also rather longer; the length of the body sometimes exceeds nine feet, and the tail is about five feet in length; the legs arc rather shorter, and the animal bends them more, and has more of the snake-like flexure of the spine when he walks. The head is less square than that of the lion, the features are not so grim and formidable to appearance; the cheeks appear much more rounded, which is in part owing to the thick fur with which thev are covered, and the absence of the eyebrows and the mane cause the animal to look less ferocious than the lion,...

The absence of the eyebrows and mane indicate a difference of habit in the animal, and this difference is farther pointed out by a difference in the structure and appearance of the eyes themselves. The shaggy mane of the lion defends him, as already observed, from the great changes of temperature to which the nature of his haunts exposes him; and as, during the dry season, even the bushes among which he resides afford him but little shade from the rays of the perpendicular sun, the projecting brow makes up the deficiency. The richer vegetation and more expanded foliage in the haunts of the tiger, render those protections unnecessary in his case; and thus, as nature is never redundant any more than she is defective, the tiger is not furnished with these.

https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA725&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&ei=uyG_VNWoAoO0oQSivYLQCQ&id=CLgTAAAAQAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


lions mane protects
https://books.google.com/books?id=IQ9ysBIFrnwC&pg=PA190&dq=%22zoo%22+lion+tiger+fight+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bB6_VKToCYi4oQS2uoKAAg&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ

https://books.google.com/books?id=JTPxAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ByC_VLHuKdivoQSSroDACA&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAg

https://books.google.com/books?id=tNgpJt8o1rgC&pg=PA18&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ByC_VLHuKdivoQSSroDACA&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBg

https://books.google.com/books?id=gIGVnQsouDEC&pg=PA13&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ByC_VLHuKdivoQSSroDACA&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBw

https://books.google.com/books?id=YuJeSc0nq9QC&pg=PA6&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ByC_VLHuKdivoQSSroDACA&ved=0CBYQ6AEwCA

https://books.google.com/books?id=qaoK0ykgmwQC&pg=PA10&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uyG_VNWoAoO0oQSivYLQCQ&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATgK

https://books.google.com/books?id=7upGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA15&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uyG_VNWoAoO0oQSivYLQCQ&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDgK

https://books.google.com/books?id=iNVvDQ9WjG0C&pg=PA6&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0Si_VOq5FoWzoQTWw4K4AQ&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzhk

https://books.google.com/books?id=xB6LBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA25&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=USq_VPyhI43soATyjYHgBg&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBThu

https://books.google.com/books?id=jC_E7382n98C&pg=PT8&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_iu_VN76L4rSoAS77ILoCw&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAziCAQ

https://books.google.com/books?id=DL2agcs4gsMC&pg=PA5&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XCy_VLbKKdHloAT654CgAQ&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDiMAQ


The thick mane around the lions head helps to protect its neck from the enemys paws while fighting for its territory.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ss7ybuC-A5IC&pg=PA5&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ASS_VOCyCY20oQT-r4GIBw&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjgU

It also serves to protect the head and neck when fighting
https://books.google.com/books?id=F23lAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA390&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ASS_VOCyCY20oQT-r4GIBw&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBTgU

It also protects the lion's neck from his enemy's teeth.
~Harriet E. Huntington Doubleday, Jan 1, 1981 - Science - 63 pages

His mane also protected his neck in fights, and fights were inevitable for Leo
~Jeannette Hanby Houghton Mifflin, 1982 - Nature - 221 pages

The mane acts like a thick, woolly scarf to protect his neck from the teeth or claws of unfriendly lions
~Jonathan Bocknek Raintree Steck-Vaughn, 2001 –

A mane makes them look bigger and scarier, and the extra fur protects their neck in a fight.
~James FieldParragon, Incorporated, Jun 1, 2003 - Animals - 256 pages

Curious lions will stick their tails straight up in the air when greeting each other. Male lions have a shaggy mane of dark hair that covers the neck. This mane makes lions appear larger and more threatening. It also protects the head and
neck ...
~Melissa S. Cole, Tom Leeson, Pat LeesonBlackbirch PressInc, Mar 1, 2002 –

A mane also helps protect a lion's throat from bites and
~Catherine NicholsScholastic Inc., 2004 - Juvenile Nonfiction - 59 pages

This mane gives the lion an impressive, even regal, appearance. It makes the male look even bigger than he is, and protects his neck during fights with other males.
~Jane Goodall, Leslie McGuire 1989 –

No doubt the mane has other functions too: it probably protects its owner's neck against claw wounds
~Brian C. R. Bertram Scribner, Jan 1, 1978 - Lion - 253 pages

The mane is a collar of long, thick hair that covers the lion's head, except for the face and neck, down to its shoulders and chest. The lion's mane makes the lion look even bigger and stronger than he is. It also protects him during fights
~George Shea, Anne Marshall Runyon Emc Pub, Sep 1, 1981 - - 40 pages

Physically, the lion has better forequarters and the great advantage of his mane because it protects the carotid artery
~William Ballantine (artist.) Rinehart, 1958 - Nature - 344 pages

he male has a beautiful mane that apparently protects the neck when lions fight one another.
~Marshall Cavendish Corporation Marshall Cavendish, 1993 - J
Probably the mane helps protect a lion's neck from injury when he fights.
~ William Darrach HalseyMacmillan Educational Corp., 1980 – Reference

The neck and throat are vulnerable and a full- bodied mane acts as protection against blows.
~New Scientist, Volume 150, Issues 2024-2030New Science Publications, 1996 - Science

The male lion has a heavier body, and his mane protects his head and neck during fights with other males.
~Sally Morgan Raintree Steck-Vaughn, Jan 1, 2003 - - 32 pages

The distinctive mane that adorns a male lion may signal his sex and adult status to females and males alike. It may also protect his head and neck during fierce combat with other males.
~ Great cats John Seidensticker, Susan Lumpkin Weldon Owen Pty, Limited, 2000 - Felidae - 240 pages

Mane attraction By the time a male lion is five years old, its mane is virtually fully grown. An impressive mane may help to attract the interest of females. lt also makes a lion look big and fierce, and protects its neck during fights.
~ Big cats J. Sheikh-Miller, S. Turnbull Edc Pub, Jan 1, 2003 –

The function of the mane is uncertain, but probably it is to protect the neck from injury while fighting.
~Chambers's Encyclopaedia, Volume 8 G. Newnes, 1959 - Encyclopedias and dictionaries

The mane seems to intimidate rivals, and possibly lionesses. It also protects the neck during fights.
~Kingdom of cats National Wildlife Federation National Wildlife Federation, 1987 - Pets - 204 pages

It also protects him during fights. The long, thick hair softens the blows
~World Book, 2000 - Encyclopedias and dictionaries - 538 pages

the Lion's mane protects his neck from danger when fighting.
~Animals of East AfricaClive A. SpinageCollins, 1962 - Zoology - 160 pages

The mane also protects the lion's neck from the bites of other male
lions and enemies.
~ Grrr!: a book about big cats Melvin Berger, Gilda Berger Scholastic, Inc., 2005 - Nature - 40 pages

A mane makes them look bigger and scarier, and the extra fur protects their neck in a fight
Wild cats and other dangerous predatorsClare Oliver, Ross WattonParragon, 2001 - Pets - 32 pages


the thick hairs of the mane protects the neck and throat from scratches and bites during fights with another male
https://books.google.com/books?id=S11g9BNo_tsC&pg=PA25&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9ie_VI7BKca4ogT44ICIBg&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBjhQ

Did you know? The larger skull and thick coarse-haired mane of a male lion protect it from blows to the head, both from struggling prey and rival males head clashing is part of male territorial behavior
https://books.google.com/books?id=qYTYWK16ur8C&pg=PA37&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0Si_VOq5FoWzoQTWw4K4AQ&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjhk

Men the mane helps protect the males neck during fighting. It also makes him look bigger
https://books.google.com/books?id=Iah2EECEwd8C&pg=PA22&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0Si_VOq5FoWzoQTWw4K4AQ&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDhk

Mane a bunch of long think hair that grows a lions neck and head. The mane helps protect the lions in fights
https://books.google.com/books?id=ril2a-ryAR4C&pg=PT23&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0Si_VOq5FoWzoQTWw4K4AQ&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBzhk

Adult male lions grow a thick mane of hair. The mane helps to
make a male look large and impressive when fighting other males. The mane also protects the lion's head and neck during fights.
https://books.google.com/books?id=F1bjXyYQRyEC&pg=PA10&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Piu_VMCQE9TtoASEo4LQBQ&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzh4

A mane protects a lion's head and neck during a fight
https://books.google.com/books?id=7vuWlLhC4BUC&pg=PA6&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uSy_VLaLHNLfoAS0y4HQBg&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBzigAQ

In the lion world, there is a huge benefit to being big and strong and having a thick, bushy mane, which protects the vulnerable neck.
https://books.google.com/books?id=5akDAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA92&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mi2_VPKTJoXcoATmkYHgAw&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBTi-AQ

The males are somewhat larger than females, and their abundant mane protects the neck, which is the usual point of attack
https://books.google.com/books?id=Ql4gBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA184&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8i2_VLmDLpX7oQS0p4KgBA&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBTjIAQ

Lions may not seem as though they need protection, but the shaggy mane covering the neck of the male may act as protection when they engage into the death fights over access to the females
https://books.google.com/books?id=d3TNBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA186&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=US6_VPPeIIquogTCw4KQAg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDjSAQ

The mane of the lion forms a good defense against the attack,; of rival lions
https://books.google.com/books?id=x2gmAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA269&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7y6_VK3HE9e6ogTP7oDoDQ&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjjmAQ

The male has a distinctive mane that apparently protects the neck
when lions fight one another
https://books.google.com/books?id=5YYqd4ROFfkC&pg=PA812&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bS-_VPOiEJLUoATZ84CADg&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATjwAQ

The bigger a lion is, the fewer other lions will try to steal his pride. Manes also protect a lion's neck. When lions fight other lions for control of a pride, theylike to bite each other on the neck. This is how lions usually kill their prey.
https://books.google.com/books?id=fXL3AAAAQBAJ&pg=PT21&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bS-_VPOiEJLUoATZ84CADg&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjjwAQ

The males, as is well known, occasionally engage in terrific battles, the old Lions being protected from the attack of the young ones by the huge tuft of hair.
https://books.google.com/books?id=VkkDAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA27&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RDC_VJHJM46yoQT71IGgDQ&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDj6AQ

Thus the splendid mane of the lion appears to be chiefly useful in partially
shielding his neck and shoulders from the teeth and
https://books.google.com/books?id=xvYaAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA840&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=gzW_VIjwNY7WoATu-4Bg&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBTjUAg

his thick mane in protecting his neck from the teeth of his rivals
https://books.google.com/books?id=LigOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA291&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kDa_VPvHOsnXoASWt4H4DQ&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDiaAw

The neck of the maie is protected by a thick mane,
https://books.google.com/books?id=0i0IAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kDa_VPvHOsnXoASWt4H4DQ&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBTiaAw

The other portions of his body may be wounded, but if the arterial system of the neck is thus protected,
https://books.google.com/books?id=9gkgAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA533&dq=%22mane%22+lion+protects+neck&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1je_VMiXF4W0ogT93ICwBg&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATi4Aw



There is no such abundantcy of published books in Ph.D biology, natrualist, animal keepers, and animal trainers of some with 40+ years on all three stating the tiger or bears neck fur is a good form of protection even a little, there is a large archive of photos with conlficts between tiger vs tiger or bear vs bear specifically showing puncture wounds to the neck area, there still in all of sciences running time not a single photo of a well maned lion with his neck ripped open by a similar carnivore.

The final verdict is, smaller animals have killed bigger bears via Pumas have killed grizzly bears, and sloth bears have killed polar bears:
http://teamauthority.myfastforum.org/African_Lion_vs_Grizzly_Bear_about729.html


and...


Leopards, and tigresses have killed male tigers:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35256


What was just learned?

- The mane keeps the striking muscles in prime condition never stiffening, never relaxed.
- The mane although a heat tensifier, acts as a shade from the sun as humans wear turbans in the desert.
- The mane provides great protection against bites, lacerations and lessens the force of blows.
- The mane intimidates other predators making them think he is bigger and more formidable.
- The mane keeps the lion warm through the coldest nights amplifying endurance in night battles.
- It is difficult to penatrate with any ordinary weapon.


There are no records, that I am aware of atleast, of a smaller predator like a leopard, jaguar, puma, or black, sun or sloth bear killing a african well maned male lion...specifically with a throat grab. You can re-read the very first source I highlighted, its quite interesting, as I can affirm alot of records of lions height to be pass 4 feet with even photos of the lions shoulder and head about 5 feet, those are the same heights of the average polar bear, tigers more on average are at 2 feet 11 inches as a species...the most interesting part is his statement of the lions muscles more so his striking shoulder muscles via upper front limb, as he states it is never stiffened by cold, and never relaxed by heat, I find that very interesting, as lions do transverse to top of mountains where it would get alot colder being higher off the ground, not to mention no matter where you are in the world at night it will get cold at times, this could explain even further how and why the lion hits with much harder force than bigger bears and some heavier tigers:

According: to naturalists, the blow of a lion's paw is the most powerful force; that any animal can deliver
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:UoHBiNdvZFoJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/49572190/+site:newspapers.com+fight++Lion+paw+blow+strongest&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


The mane to me makes the lion always ready for combat, after all he needs it more than bears and tigers, hyenas clashes are week to week, how often do bears run into wolves? Like season to season? Lions have also over 100 different species of prey that offer up immense struggle that can fatally wound, polar bears food can hardly fight back nor move faster than 10mph on land, and brown bears diet consist more of berrys, honey, plants and vegatation than meat. Tigers too also have only around 3 different cattle species, 3 deer species, a few boars and some other prey, you could combine all the sub-speces of tigers and all the species of bears prey and they still wont have even half as much diversity as the lions, what do bears/tigers hunt that is taller than a giraffe? As big and heavy as the max weights of hippo, as aggressive and coopertive as cape buffalo, as dangerous as a white rhino and black rhinos 3-4 feet long horn, and as large as a bull african elephant? Even the lions antelop can out weigh a american bison, or an indian guar, the lord derby antelope can weigh just the same on average, but records have Guar and Bison only at 3,300 lbs at max, Giant eland are up to two tons, and single lions have killed them even on video.

So far the lion has the evidence in feats, in biology books written abstract form, historical artifact form, photo form and video form. He has the best of both worlds, all the athletics of the Panthera genus via speed, agility, dexterity and flexability, and some of the bear genus attributes as well like strength, durability, endurance, power. And to top it off he has something both tigers and bears are completely without, a social group that enhances all his attributes like fighting/sparring experince more consistant and more frequent, a better way to pass on the fittest genes by feeding the wounded so they can recover from coalition wars and be stronger than ever with more knowledge and experince in combat, as in a social group they have no choice but to fight for food and rank, and their fights are week to week, some bears/tigers can go a whole year to some their whole lives without a single full on fight being solitary. Again, the lion might not be the perfect predator, he can barely swim and climb, is not good at stealth, and some other things, but theres abslolutely no questioning in what hes good at, and that is...Fighting, no other predator even comes close.

Edited by Prime - 23-Jan-2015 at 03:06
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Housecarl
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2015 at 16:14


To be fair, it is important to note that the tiger can turn faster then the lion on its hind legs.  You can see that in clips when Beatty has the tigers spin around repeatedly.  The tigers rear quarters and rear spines are longer then the lion, its front quarters lighter and thinner, so the even weight distribution, coupled with lighter forequarters and muscular lower limbs causes the tiger to move faster in whole body movements and turning.  But, this is what people miss, the lions shorter rear quarters leave less of the rear to bite hold off. Its easier to bite an animal with a longer body, its harder to bite say a pitbull or bulldog with the shortened condensed bodies designed specifically for fighting. At the same time, the lion is faster in biting with its jaws, and can strike as fast if it wants too.

From what Ive seen, out of several dozen lions and tigers, more tigers then lions, the tiger is just longer in body, longer in rear quarters, and much thinner in the body and more narrow then the lion. The heights seem to vary, I will say this, Ive even seen mixed siberian male tigers that were short in height, a good many tigers over all are not that tall.  At the same time, there are several specimens that are extremely long, narrow, and at the same time very tall, reaching heights higher then some of the lions. The heights seem to vary.

That is an amazing list compilation of the lion's mane protection.  Really interesting how the mane helps to keep the muscles warm in the cold and shielding them from the sun, making them ready and loose for fighting no matter what time of day or weather.

 


Edited by Lion crest - 23-Jan-2015 at 16:42
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Consul
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2015 at 18:16
Hey L.C...


You're talking about beattys tiger soudan video, a trick and a fight is two different things, in athletics of flexability I'm sure the tiger takes it, but in fight mode the tiger mentally draws all his attention to one thing, this also isnt good when wild dogs attack him, he can turn fast on certain things but he will have to constantly turn back and forth, watch the video of the wild dogs attacking the lone hyena on youtube, do you see how many times he has to turn? And for what, hes not doing any damage on each turn and is extremely exhausted, just like the tiger as he wont be striking, he will be grabbing and grasping, this is what I ment. The tiger will have the most hardest time grabbing one since the others will be dog-piling him, the lion is different he strikes, so to where the turns are compared, the lion will be better because damage is done each time while turining side to side, he is better at this because he fights multiple lions at once majority of the time. Bears can turn on there hind legs better, and yet it does little to wolves who still bring him back down when attacking from the back or sides.


I just was looking at the info on the last page from asia, and was like whoa, thats some pretty dam good info lol and its only basics, I think we have the green light to go and contact everland Korea to get a hold of Jeong sangjo and the rest at this point using a translator a little later. I remember all the post on yuku from aka 1,000 alias KayoP about final 16, Hobi, and all that B.S, there was like a hundred threads he made about tigers own everland 250kg + tigers and 800 lb tigers too, that tigers have killed countless of lions there, the female lions prefer the tigers and a whole bunch of other funny stuff lol, as for 5 of the interviews I have seen on everland none mention lions killed, none mention tigers dominated, no mentions of tigons, just the opposite, Jeong sangjo stated the average bengal/siberian tiger there is 180 kg, the biggest he himself mentions was Sipyukgang the siberian at 230 kg, lions average 210 kg there and stated Hong-man the lion is the biggest cat everland ever had...laters we should contact them and ask them (for educational purposes) to name all the lions and tigers there with via photos and videos that matches, and ask them if any of them were killed, I think if we show them a small portion of several other circus stuff like beattys that have had accidents where lions have killed tigers they will be more open and know it is common for accidents in zoos where the lock is broken or the door gets accidently opened resulting in fatal fights, that way they dont have to worry about consealing anything.

That way it can be conclusive, we can have straight facts from the owners and keepers there, no second guessing needed, no fake storys, no photo shoped anything like pckts polluted the web with, just straight up answers, Jeong sangjo has been there for 25+ years, thats pretty long, not as long as Beattys 40 years, but no dought he can share some different perspectives since his is a little different, beattys was one offs, alot of them, but one offs in the sense they were usually confined...everland has a wild-like atmesfere, they can do things according to their own will on there own time, since they can form coalitions or communitys, I no dought know more tigers would have been killed, some videos on korean sites even showed night tours where the lions/tigers roam and roars can be heard, not always but sometimes I guess, this is very bad for tigers, the night is the lions element, they are most active in the night and the keepers will have a much harder time breaking up fights in almost pitch darkness, as it only takes a few moments and lions can gang up on a tiger and kill him easily, there is a scene one of the big male lions is injured in a fight with another lion, a tiger then takes advantage of him being wounded, then a lioness comes to the males aid and grabs the tiger by the tail, (much like the Tai zong incident and artifact of the jade lion dragging the tiger) the lioness drags the tiger by the tail for like 6 feet, then the male chases the tiger off...pretty dominant scene, but anyways...there are most likely hundreds of fights thats not on the videos, and we probably can get alot more if we ask them politely and tell them its for educational purposes, atleast the info on hand can teach zoos, circuses and reserves one thing...to reinforce there cages/doors locking system, it seems the most common accident is when the locks give way an get in each others cages and fight, if they double up or triple on the locks, it can save alot of conflicts.


Again, the info on asia is quite cool, we have alot on india so far we've got, incidents in the wild where the lion won, Velar near the gangis river, another one next to a creek reported by the Ballou, one in Surat near the Tapti tiver, and bolds one which I dont know of the root source, but we also have pit fights one near india/burma, one of the himalayins, one near/in the gir forest, one mentioned by Kailash. In indias captivity, we got one incident where two lionesses killed a tigress at Bhbanewar via Nadankanan park, one lion killed a tiger in argatala, another lion killed a tiger in Jamnagar and jam shib seen 4 lions defeat 4 tigers somewhere in Kutch/rajkot. Plus theres the statements of 2 historical people, of Santri the pardipattu, mayahabatrata, the mountain slopes and Hari shankas mentioning of alot of back the lion in a fight like sahnkala with also Dhotre added in. Again, when the lion was killed off by the hunting/war alot of the lions history had gone missing from the people, but with the lion coming back to his former locations alot of light will be shed on lions/tigers co-existments/ So atleast we could contact a few indian-people like Shanka and share what we know to aid them/us in re-collecting some of the history...but it ends with a good note over all, tiger numbers census just got back this year, and it has risen by 30%...lions census are gona be done this year too, and I'm pretty sure there numbers went up as well, hopeing to see them pass the 500 mark. Alot of news coverage can be shared world wide on them now, better protecting them from poachers, the hunting throphy days for india are gone. India is doing a very good job, the main thing the lions and tigers need now is more awareness for the people and more TV-like shows so they can be known better, the more eyes on them like TV shows are actually good, because that way the conservationlist can keep them away from idiot poachers and other conflicts.


Animals conflicts are quite nothing when fatal fights happen, they can rebound from that 1 or two even tens, excessive hunting like the idiot hunter who shot 300 lions by himself is what severly damaged the lion and tiger population. It will be a rough climb for these big cats, but with all the people being able to help and work together with via internet news, I think they both can make a huge comeback...Go tigers and lions!

As much as it would be cool to see them clash again in the wild, or see for another zoo incident where the locks unhinge and death is reported to see who won, honestly we dont need them or should be seeked of further future casualtys, there are records of this that already happened, hundreds, to thousands, we just have to look for its historical data, yes in the wild too it has happened alot, people need to quit the protending of trying to play expert, typing in lion vs tiger into google is not research, typeing in tiger kills lion is not gona give you historical accounts, typing experts will only get you to phoneys with bias statistics not facts, if anyone wants to find genuine answers, the people with experince handling and observing both is where the most credible info is gona come from. The info is held with historians, conservationlist, biologist, alot with circus-groups or trainers, zoos, and other means of bringing them together, anything of present or future is quite cruel, but we cant change things that happened in the past, but we can learn from it, its like people who watch CSI cop detective shows, people like watching them doesnt mean those people like going out and kiling people, the same with this subject I dont need to see another staged event of today, but its history is very interesting and the topic its self is one of the hardest questions to answer...as its still has gone un-answered to today, atleast a well put together and educated one on the matter...but again, I think with more info we could give a well educated answer it in our time, atleast the info so far is moving in one direction. lol

Edited by Prime - 23-Jan-2015 at 18:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2015 at 23:54


Yeah, that is interesting about the weights in Everland, I didn't know the keepers also said that the siberian tigers were lighter then the lions too.  Do you have the quotes on that?  I know I read somewhere that one of the keepers thought the siberians were the strongest then the lions, then bengals after.  But to see the actual weight averages, this says a lot for the lion to see they actually come out being the heavier cat in captivity.  I have seen some very long tall siberians bengal tigers, at the same time Ive seen full grown siberians that were not that big, and still as thin as bengals, just with thicker fur, less stripes. Great info on that. It would be good to know more from these keepers. Over all from the Everland video footage shown, its a sure thing, the tigers were not the superior cat in a fight there, and as well many clips confirm Beatty's words mentioned so many years earlier, you can't fake that.


Edited by Lion crest - 03-Feb-2015 at 00:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2015 at 22:30
Originally posted by Lion crest

Yeah, that is interesting about the weights in Everland, I didn't know the keepers also said that the siberian tigers were lighter then the lions too.  Do you have the quotes on that?  I know I read somewhere that one of the keepers thought the siberians were the strongest then the lions, then bengals after.  But to see the actual weight averages, this says a lot for the lion to see they actually come out being the heavier cat in captivity.  I have seen some very long tall siberians bengal tigers, at the same time Ive seen full grown siberians that were not that big, and still as thin as bengals, just with thicker fur, less stripes. Great info on that. It would be good to know more from these keepers. Over all from the Everland video footage shown, its a sure thing, the tigers were not the superior cat in a fight there, and as well many clips confirm Beatty's words mentioned so many years earlier, you can't fake that.



It should be on the second page of the link I showed you on wcr of the power-struggle on everland, he states the weights of sipyukgang under the photo of him and techno. Hong-man should be on page 1 or 3 being mentioned to be the biggest of everland. But again, the weights so far are insignificant...the tiger would have to be twice the size the lion is compared to how much the tiger is lacking in the fighting experince/knowledge department, tiger fans dont even have 50 fights recorded of tigers fighting a even matched fight of male tiger vs male tiger in the wild yet, not much to go on if they wanna say the tiger is a seasoned fighter. If the lion is in his prime of life and went through his usual intiation rank tribulation of fighting several of his brothers and pride mates, for the food, rank, helping defend the injured and wounded, he is already well ahead as a fighter in terms expertise before he even gets to fight rivals, lions fight week to week, tigers year to year as adults.


The lion has already been tested by defeating much larger bears who out weigh any tiger:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35295


So the strength/power argument is quite nullified. Tigers do not have a good record against bears in a fair scenario with no escape, I found out Clyde beatty had not just 2 but several tigers killed by bears, his bear Bill killed a tigress, and doris killed two a male and female, another article has beatty stateing himself... his best tiger... was killed by another brown bear instantly, the big bear just truned grabed him and broke his neck in seconds, roman proske lost two tigers too. But again, size and weight isnt that much of a leverage when its not by much, 50-70% heavier than the lion still wont mean much if they dont have a effective way of killing him. Any tiger above 500 lbs is already well above its average, anything bigger than 600 lbs is abnormal, anything bigger than 700 lbs is obese. What can a tiger or lion do at 800+ lbs? Their performance would stretch the limits of their physiology, mentioning Jaipur...Jaipur, Jaipur the 1,000 lb tiger over and over again isnt going to prove the tiger will win, if it did these people would dominate the boxing and UFC fighting ring:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_heaviest_people


Does that prove humans can kill a tiger on average more than vice versa because they can get heavier more often? No. Both lions and tigers can reach those weights in captivity. Even if you were to go against all science, and turn a bias closed eye view to 7 of the tiger sub-species who can be as small as a leopard at 160 lbs...not factor them in, then only count bengal and siberians, you still would be able to find more lions heavier than more tigers in the wild because there are more lions in general. Bears with double to even triple the weight of lions couldnt up hold the larger size equals larger strength comparison when lions/bears fought in captivity...they lost. At the end of the day, these scamatics, pesudo charts, empty science theorys, graphs that show numbers and diagrams out of thin air is useless, the only things that will solidify a winner is the death accounts, historical significance via artifacts for consistancy, their hunting/fighting power-struggle and strength feats, how they stack up overall in durability, and learning from people who have observed them fight is where the answers will come from.


The durability factor of the lions throat and (for lions who have manes on their under side) belly, along with it protecting his chest, sides and back of his head and shoulders is still the lions best assisment to his overall fighting capabilitys and attributes. Tigers neck/throats/chest/stomach have been breached by fangs/claws of bears, leopards, lions and wild dogs, even tusk from boars, and horns from cattle, bulls and guar have penatrated/disemboweled and ripped the throats/stomachs of tigers, no animal has ripped out a lions neck in a fair fight with actual photo evidence, as it takes huge amounts of blunt force and an extreme amount of punishment to kill a lion upon anything out of the carnivorian-mammal world, something the tiger cant dish out, and something bears dont have enough time to proceed in applying their method/skill against a heavily maned lion.


Seeveral news articles covered the occaison the leopard killed the tiger, even through the tiger already had a grip on the leopards throat:

There was a fight to the death between a big Bengal tiger and a leopard In the arena of the winter quarters of the Wallace shows In which the leopard was the victor.. - , The tiger got the leopard down and was tugging at his throat, when the apparently, exhausted animal turned upon his back, and, with hind feet, began clawing" at : the tiger's breast. With every stroke the blood flowed In . streams. In a few moments, the claws of the leopard had reached the vitals. of the tiger, and these were torn out. The tiger fell over on his side, dead.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:FbJDaC0YF5kJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/57518604/+site:newspapers.com+dies+in+fight+leopard+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1

Leopards can reach 200 lbs, and a 200 lb man already can do many things in terms strength feats, a predator such as a leopard at that weight and claws working effectively could no dought tear huge amount of chunks from a tiger, the same way they do on humans, afterall, the tigers fur is very short, bengals fur are no thicker then the average thickness of a mans clothing:

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/pb-120108-leopard-cannon.photoblog900.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/07/article-2083518-0F5DB3C500000578-405_634x339.jpg


This is why these animals should be given their distance and own area, both usually avoid each other and a tiger attacking a leopard in the wild runs a risk of being killed if its a large enough male. Tigers dont have the durability to handle animals who have similar weapons as himself:

http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbook_text/Past_Days_in_India_1000903381/193


African lion killed a large bull In Sonora The lion was ton foxy and scientific for the bull. He threw his antagonist several times by grasping his throat and horns. Finally he grasped the bull by the nose and throat and smothered him to death

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anewspapers.com+African+Lion+Kills+Bull+In+SonoraThe+&hl=en&gbv=1&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&ei=FdzFVPqSDsvroASC3oK4Ag&sa=N


How many fights have tigers won in a caged in scenario against bulls? last time I checked its like a 99% chance the tiger loses against a prime bull. I dont favor any carnivore against a fighting bull, but the lion cretainly does better on some occaisons then most tigers and bears, so like leopards and tigers do their best to avoid each other, a tiger would have a handfull of problems when comeing across a lion who inverse the lion wont avoid the tiger, he would go straight at him as his job is to protect the cubs and the females. On google books, there is a account of 20th century accidents in zoos where a gorilla was killed by a lion by a simple clawing, its interesting since the two times the gorilla met with a tiger, the gorilla chased the tiger around the arena...forgot to get the link.

I didnt see this part, but it states the bear died from a blow from Queenie not the bite:

Queenie sprang from the bleeding bear and ran into her cage. The door of the cage was promptly closed upon her. and attention was given to the bear, but he was found to be dead, that he had died instantly from the blow. Frank C. Bostock, "the animal king," will present the carcass of the bear to Harvard.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:y3K8Lnlw4uUJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/68951769/+site:newspapers.com++lion++dead+bear+bostock&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


So possibly 4 times a lion has killed a bear specifically with a blow from the paw, with the male lion accounts, the brown bears death came swift with just one blow.


- Tigers method of killing more so throat grab with bite
- Jaguars method of killing more so skull crush with bite
- Pumas method of killing more so disembowel with all fours
- Brown bears method of killing more so bear hug with arms
- Lions method of killing more so head hunter with paw strikes





Edited by Prime - 05-Feb-2015 at 22:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Feb-2015 at 16:33

Yeah its pretty amazing these accounts about the leopards.  I think important to note too, the tiger does not have the lions neck and head mobility, not even close, even Beatty stated the tiger leaves his head open much more.  So it would make sense, against any opponent, large or small, the tigers neck and head is more vulnerable then an adult male lion.  Because not only does the tiger not have the added mane protection, he does not posses the lion's head and neck mobility, the tigers heads are stiff in battle, as well the lion shifts better in battle too.  On top of that, the lion bites far faster and more skillfully like a dog. Those rapid multiple succession bites will protect the lion from the opponent getting to close, the continually shifting and shaking of the head and neck, will keep the opponent from being able to land a clear bite, and of course then factor in the thick mane making it all the more difficult. I think that is what happened in the Boss Tweed fight, the chute was only several feet wide, most of the fighting was inclose probably with the jaws and head. 


Edited by Lion crest - 08-Feb-2015 at 16:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2015 at 17:38
Yeah, atleast now we know that size is not important as long as the smaller doesnt play the strongers game, again, every animal on earth even a bull elephant can die with a dime sized whole in their trachea...bears are no exception, can a bear beat a leopard/puma in a strength test via moving rocks, no dought, an arm wrestling match? No dought, a pulling contest, no dought...anything to do with physical strength the bear should take it, but one hold on the trachea and all that strength counts for nothing, so:

- Skill can make a puma reach the throat first
- Speed can make the puma reach the neck first
- Agility can make the puma reach the trachea first
- Dexterity can make the puma reach the windpipe first


How and why would the puma care for the bears bigger size and heavier built? Bear fanatics are just as bad as tiger fanatics, they have to twist things and lie all the time:
http://grizzly.yuku.com/reply/767/Grizzly-vs-Lion-

Probably jealous because the lion in healdry dwarfs all animals combined even out of their country. lol I've read up on the parnell and ramadan fight in over 25 books, they all quote word for word the bear killed the lion like a cat would a rat, not only are their dates way after the incident, but they are on books, books can be written by anyone and not have to go through the trials of being credible, reliable or even any alibied aliases, there are some books titled fiction with some info being true, and there are some books titled non-fiction, with complete false, lies and fake info...quanity doesnt equate into truth, there are over 30 news articles that covered it each with its own discription of the story, thats not out of the norm, judges for boxing fights all score the fights differently, people wanted the bear to win hence some state the bear small as 700 pounds, others who talked to Boone stated weights of 1,750 lbs...even more funny that link had stated the original article is in california and still there...ha hah a ha, like that means anything, the fight (unlike the phoney books) happened in mexico not california, so the orginal should be in lerado not san fran...XD XD XD Bottom line is, Parnell killed his brother lion, 2 keepers, a goat, a steer, a heifer, 2 bears, stalemated the last, killed 3 bulls and died from the last...Ramadan lost the second bout with parnell as Boone threw meat specifically at Ramadan, Parnell twice went up to the bear and stole his food, aquiting from the beggining...maybe because he was scared of another beat down, kinda like the bear and lion video, the bear trys to take the lions food and fails, the lion calls him out by intiating roars for a challange, and the bear stays on the opposite side, that wasnt even a big lion with a full mane, and yet the bear was slapped silly.

And wow, so he titles all his threads...Reign of the grizzly...yet only scavanages less than 10 accounts of bears killing lions? None of them specifically state it was a adult male lion, atleast the lion-killing-bear accounts the articles gives a male name, like President, Peary ect...it also names the sub-species, like North american via Kodiak, polar bear, siberian, european brown bear, and russian...aka kamchatka. lol less than 10... some reign, theres more accounts of pumas killing 1,000 pound bears than there is of bears killing african lions, its usually the lionesses that lose, maybe because they lack a mane. He mentions courtney cooper...lol it doesnt even say the lion was killed. Heres what it says:

when lions fought with grizzly bears as a gambling attraction in San Francisco Bay, when grifters and mobsters and short- changers followed a sinuous trail along every circus lot, and pitched battles often occurred, with consequent injury
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22when+lions+fought+with+grizzly+bears+as+a+gambling%22&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


A bear was billed killing a tiger there not a lion years before, the only san fran one, was the parnell fight, which of course is twisted because california already had the bear as their symbol via bias and cant handle the truth, parnell killed a big bear monarch there, but it was because he slipped i his cage, the ramadan fight was probably because boone wanted revenge from Parnell killing Monarch and siskyou making boone lose sveral thousand dollars. Speaking of courtney cooper, funny he mentions him yet doesnt mention the account cooper stated a escaped liger from a circus at the winter quarters had a fight with a full grown wild grizzly bear and later a puma:

https://books.google.com/books?id=VHs4AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA30&dq=circus+lion+tiger+hybrid+bear&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IqzjVKOzIZO4ogTtpYKoDA&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBA

Ha ha ha, looks like the only time a tiger has killed a full grown brown bear is when he had a little lion in him...lol its a long story and a couple of pages mentions the bear trys to bear hug the liger...but...the liger out powers and phyically rips open with pure strength the hold of the bear and finishes him off. So much for the reign of bears, ousted by...the son of lion. lol

Heres another one where a puma killed a 800 lb she bear:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jHNmZIaY9o8J:http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=DAC18630819.2.9+%22a+fight+between+african+lion+and+a+bear%22+site%3Aedu&hl=en&ct=clnk


He even thinks bears can almost always win against fighting bulls XD XD XD XD XD Ive seen almost a hundred well documented times a bull has beatin a bear to a pulp, over powerd, stomped, gored and splatterd a bears head like a water melon. Its obvious hilarious, look at their main sight, its called shaggy...god...proboards, lol they think brown bears are gods. Ri--ght...gods that are killed by 150 lb pumas and leopards. The reason why there isnt much of anything killing a well maned lion is because he out of any land carnivorian on the planet to have ever existed, has the largest and best protecting factor that protects the trachea, a dense accumilation of hair that can be longer than 2 feet. The trachea is the most vulnerable place on the entire body which these animals can reach with their natrual weapons. As the very first source of the mane list stated, no ordinary weapon can penatrate it. Maybe a black rhinos horn or bull elephants tusk can because of being so long, but those arnt that ordinary or common. Claws and fangs accounts almost for nothing at the trachea and other protected parts of the mane, even fighting bulls horns had difficulty penatrating it, also like you said, the lion has better head movements, which he learned because of his diverse amount of prey-conflicts and social in-fighting.


Some info of india:



Then there’s one more enemy that he faced. And this one is perhaps the worst enemy of all: the lion. I don’t know if you realize just how powerful and mighty a beast a lion actually is. Did you know, for instance, that a lion with one slap of his paw can crush the human skull? He is enormously powerful. Have you ever wondered what would happen if a lion and a tiger were to get into a fight. I am sure that you, like Judy and I were probably discussing this at dinner last evening. [laughter] Seriously, have you ever wondered what would happen if a lion and a tiger actually got in a fight? Which would win? Well, this happened once in India and it was actually caught on film. In India there was a fight between a lion and a tiger that occurred down in a pit. These two mighty creatures circled each other and lashed out at each other, and spit, and snarled, and leapt lightly as only catscan do. They grappled and rolled and roared and bit each other. And finally in a split second the tiger dropped motionlessly to the ground. Far too quick for the eye to see, but just at the right moment, this lion, delivered a well-timed blow to the side of the tigers head, and crushed his skull. The lion is a mighty beast.
http://www.google.com/search?ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&source=hp&q=like+Judy+and+I+were+probably+discussing+this+at+dinner+last+evening.+%5Blaughter%5D+Seriously%2C+have+you+ever+wondered+what+would+happen+if+a+lion+and+a+tiger+actually+got+in+a+fight%3F&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1

Could be the gir forest or the burma or himalayin one, or another of india.


lol at the bear fans contradicting what skill comes from, you need to be consistent and frequently practiced at something in order to develope any skill at all, they say bears have more fighting skill...from what? They say lions sleep all day, thats only because nothing can disturb a lions presence, tigers cant sleep all day because anything from wild dogs and up can oust him from his territory, same with bears and wolves, and lol brown bears sleep a 100 to a 1,000 times more than lions, hybernation takes up 5+ months of sleep, thats 5 months without any fighting skill per adult year, imagine if all the heavy weight boxers took off 5 months of training each year before their fights? You think they'd be as game and conditioned? lol Lions fight week to week, no other 200+ lb apex predator even fights year to year as an individual...why? Because he is an individual via solitary. Bears are the least practiced killers of tigers and lions, lions are the top, hence another understanding of his title King, type in Ungualtes of africa in google images, you will see a poster with over a 100 different type of sub-specifc animals the lion hunts, and thats only about half the amount there really is in africa...theres only about 10 or so ungulates brown bears hunt, and only 2 or 3 are formidable...bears dont face any formidable as frequent as lions do, combine ungulates of tigers and bears and you still wont get even half the lion hunts. The lion is the most gamed hunter, skilled hunter, frequent hunter, diversed hunter there is, and unlike bears who use forest to cut trap animals or tigers dense jungles where the tiger can ambush, the lion has to chase down in open grounds and face them head on in confrontations, this adds on stamina, evasive-manuvering, parryiing-agility, and a higher understanding of combat. Check this out, three lions go to town and nearly rip a bear to peices, later dieing of his injuries:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=THA18900212.2.20


Let the butt hurt bear fans commence, but thats 3 lions, thats not fair...so what, if bears co-existed with lions that is exactly what they would be going up against week to week or atleast month to month in the wild, bears wouldnt even manage against spotted hyenas who run in clans as big as 40+. Bi-pedal tigers and bears techniques are the least of the lions worrys as the peary and roosevelt fight stated, the lion doesnt even care for that tactics, what would then the bear do standing? He cant catch the lion in that position, and lions learn quick, he will catch the bear before he is fully erect, where the lions most powerful blow comes from, the inbetween the 45 and 90 degree strike...thats where the most hardest hits will be promoted from a foward lunging motion amplifying the strength of his blows, like the video I showed of the bear and two wolves, the bear couldnt even do heavy damage, even any damage at all from his strikes, hes not a striker, hes a pusher, theres no predator on earth able to strike as hard as the lion in terms comparing feats 4 big bears fell dead from a blow from the lion, so did other lions, tigers, leopards, elands, giraffes, oxen ect...if size was everything, why did Bob sap lose more than he won...majority of them were smaller than him 2 times fold, who pushes harder a sumo man or a boxer? A sumo, who punches harder a sumo or a boxer like tyson? Tyson, tyson has droped over 30+ people with knock out punches, how many people have sumo men knocked out cold? None. Again its about playing each others game, nothing trumps the throat grab, and the lion is the most practiced with it, with actual feats to show for and the diveristy that dwarfs any apex's competition, not only that, that very pinnacle of the most effective, easist and fastest method of killing their advesarys can hardly ever be used on him.

There are videos of bears killing other bears with throat grabs, and photos of tigers killing tigers with throat grabs after fair fights, there is no photo evidence of anything killing a well maned lion with a throat grab that specifically showed the after math with via a throat ripped open:



Still waiting for just 10 accounts of any animal using that method on a well maned lion with credentials and evidence, theres some 100+ of lions ripping out bears and tigers throats...even leopards did it to bengals and polar bears. The only reason why there are any accounts of lions in general losing to bears and tigers, is because lionesses do not have manes:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SC8siFa6KcQ/maxresdefault.jpg


Thats all they have, lionesses being killed by throat grabs, not males with large manes in fair fights.

Lion>>>>>Puma>>>>>Brown Bear

Lion >>>>Leopard>>>>>Polar Bear

Via facts upon accounts, not fake and made up statistics like strength, size and endurance when it is hardly ever accounted for in the fight. If the trachea and being disembowled was out of the equation I'd give it to the bears, but since they arnt getting to the faster felidaes throat first excluding tigers who just waste their times trying to play the bears game, then I give it to the speed blitzers of the pantheras, even more so to probably is the most experinced, diverse battle equiped and skilled fighter there is, the african lion.

If you speak to leofwin and bold them again, you should ask if they can also search for bear/lion conflicts too, since Leofwin always finds some pretty awesome articles, as I am interested if there are accounts of a male lion taking on multiple bears at once and winning, its possible, if boss tweeds can kill 3 tigers at once, and 4 lions can kill 3 polar bears at once, and like sir thomas stated a lion killed a tiger, bear and cow at once at vienna, I think a lion can pull it off, no predator can take on multiple male lions and win, but lions can take on a diversity of other predators at once and win, and if lions can drop brown bears with a blow from their effective stance, I dont see why a lion cant win against two brown bears or two polar bears if he kills one fast early on with a blow to the head or bite to the trachea and then fights an battles the second with endurance reserved two grizzlys is still killable. Its a stretch, but with whats on record so far, I think its possible.


Edited by Prime - 17-Feb-2015 at 23:32
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2015 at 21:43
Here is the fight between a grizzli and a tiger:

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk1OTk3MTY0.html?from=y1.2-1-176.4.11-1.1-1-2-10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2015 at 21:57
Hey catlion...


Looks like the japanese site, seen some cool stuff there thats not on youtube a few times. This site is a bit older, you have to put the url signs manually for the link to go through. I just stopped in because I updated the lion vs bear info:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35295


Was quite amazed that dogs, wolves, mules, horses, leopards, pumas, cattle, buffalo, bison, bulls, moose, lions and even donkeys have killed brown bears and polar bears. Its quite comedical since all the bear fans always speak so highly or should I say B.S overexaggerating the capabilitys and durability of grizzly-like bears. lol I back the lion even more so now against bears, heck if a donkey or mule can cave in a brown bears face, a lion who is known having the hardest striking force of the carnivorians surely can too, atleast if he is able to land a good straight on blow. That update is still only like a few times searched on, I'm sure further searches will show countless of other times all those animals have killed giant bears.


Hopefully you and Counter strike can pile in other stuff too on these three threads, gona have to head out again, catch you laters.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2015 at 08:43
Yeah, Prime, bears, especially grizzlies, have been overrated in animal vs animal fórums. Probably, the expert in Maxine Annabell's site Lairwebb contributed to spread the misconception that grizzlies are unbeatable.

What seems weird is that such an expert ascertained everything from the very beginning, concerning lion vs tiger, but failed completely concerning the bear and grizzly issue related to the Californians' account.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2015 at 12:41
I agree...ascertained everything from the beggining seems to be a dead give away of not knowing anything at all about these animals, I dont know any one who can even be called an expert specifically on a african lion vs grizzly bear subject, closes't that comes to mind would be Clyde beatty, Roman proske, Louis roth, Alfred court and Pete taylor who started off with an all animal acts, including bears and lions, and they mention little of it specifically in a match up...to me an expert has to have worked both simultaneously, and of course seen fights to death accounts more than a few times.

Lairwebb although to have done extensive research was still only in its beggining stage of gathering data, with newspaper archives and book archives growing now, its alot easier to look for past conflicts, which is to me a 100 times more credible than going around in circles trying to find the biggest, baddest fattest animal you can find, measuring bones, muscles, and some un-confirmed hear say feats is just a waste of time, you can speculate that for a thousand years and still not have a factual answer (much like how there still isnt a decisive answer today), the accounts are the only true implication of what would really go down. The further info gathered would have showed lairwebb the truth, as its frontal value of course would make the bear seem superior, but analyzing and disecting the merits of each attribute and account fully and in a wider perspective will show the whole story.

What will be the exuse of bear fanatics now? They always say the captive bears lost because of being...well...captive and not wild, so? Wild ones are now being shwon to have lost to pumas more than anything. Theres pretty much what most would claim pettiful animals like goats and donkeys killing massive grizzlys in the wild, yet no match ups are ever mentioned of them with bears, I dont think the bear has even half or even a quarter of durability the bear fanatics say he has, for one thing theres hundreds to thousands of photos of people skinning bears (not needing katana swords to do it) and with just a few inches worth long pocket knives:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&source=hp&gbv=1&q=skinning+a+bear

Comparing a big cat to a bear in terms sharpness of claws, is like comparing a cutting knife to a butter knife:
http://www.bgoodeknives.com/cutlery/par_spred.jpg

Could you skin an animal with a butter knife? Probably not. This is the sole reason why big cats claws are retractable, it keeps it razor sharp, the claws dont have to be 1 foot long in order to disembowel a bear, a needle is way smaller than claws, and yet it would go through almost anything alot easier than something bigger like a grizzlys claws. Not saying the bears claws are useless, but its not more effective just because its longer, these animals dont stab each other, they just slash, a tiny razor blade can do just as much damage as a sword if it is both measured by slashing propertys...not stabbing propertys. I dont think any predator alive has as much striking strength as the lion, even animals that would out weigh him 3x's over wont strike harder, a hippo can be 10 x as heavy as a lion, yet by their physiology they dont strike harder, and there isnt any video or atleast photo evidence of bears having striking with formidable force even in their repatwa of fighting tactics. How and why would brown bears need that tactics?


1.) There isnt a vast amount of ungulates or a ton of diverse prey to practice and form/sculpt that striking method on, theres only less then 20 or so different species of prey for the bear.

2.) His physiology, how he is built with more weight in the lower half than front wouldnt promote a devastating blow.

3.) His primary tactics is to grab not strike, as shown in 99.9% of all videos when bigger bears fight each other or hunt.


People like mike tyson are better boxers than people a century before because they have better training methods that amplifys there skill, like punching bags, speed bags, free weights, jumping rope ect, the same way lions practice more striking on 100's of different sizes and shapes of animals...more diveristy equals more skill involved. Look how little the bigger brown bear has to practice on at base:
http://www.oopsydaisy.com/store/media/catalog/product/cache/3/small_image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/a/n/animals-of-north-america_nb7225_1.jpg

The lion has over a 100 to practice on. Again, larger diveristy equals more skill involved. Anyone would be a better fighter if they had a sparring partner (pride or coalition like fighting), lift weights (hunt larger formidable animals that offer struggle), used boxing gyms accsesories like punching bags ect (fights week to week with heavy competitors like hyena), compared to someone who hardly ever trains and takes off like 5 months of sleep per year, who instead of hunting every week for conditioning eats grass and berries, and only fights like once a year or once a season for territory or mating, thats like comparing a seasoned heavy weight champ, vs your average obese person...skill trumps size every time. The lion is a mixed martial artist champ, the brown bear just your average run-around sumo wrestler/food junkie.


Again, size records, comparing muscle, bones and all that carnivora forum crap is a waste of time, if you had 1,000 individual record papers of weights statistics or 1,000 individual record papers of accounts where one has killed the other...which one would be a more defining way of telling who would win? Most likely the one where it showed A killing B, not B out weighing A. lol

Edited by Prime - 20-Feb-2015 at 13:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2015 at 21:10
Yeah, Carnivora fórum same as Yuku fórum are dominated by hyperfanatical tigerfans and bearfans who almost hate the male lion and have no interest in finding the truth (since they already know that lion is the final winner by a significan margin) and simulate to be convinced that weight and fat is everything. For them, the objective is spreading lies to twist facts and conceal that the male tiger is a total disaster as a fighter, especially the biggests subespecies.

But sooner or later truth is emerging. Your info adds a lot in favor of the male lion, first, against the rest, and of the leopards and cougars against tigers. In fact, the male Amur tiger followed by the male Bental tiger are final losers against tigresses, leopards and courgars (whatever gendre) and even bears.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2015 at 22:32
lol

Its starting to look that way, but I wouldnt count the tiger out just yet. If the tiger does defeat the lion 1 on 1 in a fair fight then so be it, but I yet to see any site that actually compares the essentials and then compare who has more. This is still in its beggining stage, atleast now we know what to look for, in terms what would make the argument concrete. But thats for laters when the rest of us can go to a formal site an all the old gang can pitch in on one site...I just pitched in things here and there. But anyways...found some interesting stuff just now:


Another tigress aka the superior of the species gender, killed by a lion:



A LION KILLS A TIGER. "The lion trainer forgot to lock the door in the partition between the lions and a female tiger that we had fast bought, after his rehearshal at JUayenna, O., and the tigress pushed open and walked into the lion's den. A terrible fight followed, in which one of the lions disemboweled and fatally Injured her; in a-fair fight she could have whipped him, for the tiger Is a more courageous animal.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:lW01sIsNwFMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/29013057/+site:newspapers.com++++%22lion+kills%22+bear&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Uhm? I dont think courageous would be a good term for a tiger, if he knew anything about their physicological history...just sounds like another up-tight reporter who is use to hearing tigers are the largest so he assumed the tiger should have won, it was the tigress that envaded the lions den, not the other way around. But the tiger, even the siberian is not durable at the trachea by the simple fact fangs are longer than their fur, not to mention a young lion in a fair fight cannot kill a well maned one, but it does not mean anything towards tigers because male or female they both lack a mane:


2 year old tigress kills 6 year old tigress:

PITTSBURGH (AP) — A 6-year- old Siberian tiger died following a fight with another tiger that is four years younger, according to a Pittsburgh Zoo official
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:0Pc-de06O5QJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/14679130/+site:newspapers.com+%22tiger+dies+in+fight%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


This pretty much shatters the world of bear fanatics claiming the bear is more durable than the male lion:

Dog kills big bear:

A small "bulldog owned by 'William Bennett rushed at them and caught one of the "bears by the leg. A fierce battle ensued and the dog got a fatal grip on the throat of the bear. No one dared go to the rescue of poor bruin. The showmen, even with their poles, were unable to shake the dog's grip, and the bear was dead; within thirty minutes.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:i4jfADFbrPYJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/76834232/+site:newspapers.com++++%22dog+kills%22+bear&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


People still dont understand how and why the lion has hundreds to possibly thousands of books written on him saying the mane offers protection, the mane protects the trachea, the most vulnerables't part on any living mammals body...the bears fur isnt half the length, or 1/3rd the length or even 1/4th the length and density of the lions mane specifically around the trachea...hence the lion is more durable than the bear. It does not matter how strong or big an animal is, a hole the size of a dime or even a little slit on the trachea itself is gona kill the animal. And it doesnt take 10 million pounds of pressure to obstruct the wind pipe, less than a 200 psi is needed. As we now are seeing tons of accounts of horses, mules and donkeys killing bears, as I just added about 10 more on the lion vs bear thread. So I dont know what durability bear fanatics are talking about. Its already been shown a african lion has the same density of bone/skull as a kodiak bear...so if a bear cannot crush another bears skull with his paws, he can hardly do it to the lion.


Like this account showed, bigger bears like browns and polars dont even strike out like the smaller bears do, they grab and bear-hug and plus their throats are vulnerable:

This again, in bear fighting, though a favorite grip, is not for killing by tearing or biting, but for the purpose of overcoming by sheer physical weight or strength… Homaday in his book on "The Minds and Manners of Wild Animals." The fight occurred in the famous New York zoo, but the book is well known in London. In this fight, as described by Dr. Homaday who was an eyewitness, one polar bear, from the start, concentrated in trying to sever the jugular vein of the other by savage attacks on the throat and eventually succeeded In killing It by this method.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XbiSaHJlEqEJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/39650292/+site:newspapers.com+%22two+bears%22+fight+to+death&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


That would back fire insanely on a bear who trys to hug a lion, he would find himself searching and seraching for the throat getting only mouth fulls of hair, by then the lion would return fire and bite down on the bears throat instead since hes right there and is better at it, slightly stronger jaws, bigger canines and his muzzle is nearly twice the size of any bears, which is probably why he bites harder and more effectively. Who has the most durability at the throat? Not the bear, but the african lion...this is a huge if not massive advantage from the start to the finish, the bear can only kill the lion if the lion is fully exhausted or in other words near the end of his prowess, but the lion can not only kill the bear by going the full mile in a long all out brawl, but he can also kill the bear or tiger in the first instances if he chooses to bite the throat who both bear/tiger has un-protected, or lands one of his signature death blows with his paws.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2015 at 13:31
Totally, Prime.

Probably, Everland contains a lot of information that would help a lot to eliminate old myths about lions and tigers. The fact is that we were used to find from time to time some clips in Youtube revealing what happens there. However, since 2011 or 2012 no new videos have been released in the Internet coming from Everland.

Of course, to explore the opinions from the handlers of the park would be no doubt quite interesting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2015 at 16:04
Everland is a done deal, we have Jeong sangjos statement, the only reason is because of the yuku guys who twisted the content and put...tiger defeats lion...on all the videos titles and even edited out things, when none showed a lion being defeated. But no dought we can later ask them some questions extending the probability hundreds of other times lions have pulverised tigers there and even if some were killed...since lions rolled in mini prides and coalitions there, so no dought 1 or 2 tigers were killed per year. They did mention some where about selling big cat meat from animals that died in fighting, so we could ask specifically which ones died and maybe a story that goes along with it. Again thats for laters.

I noticed you're on carnivora too, if you'd like...on this thread:

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9344906/1/

You can post this link:

http://allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35295

I'd like to see the reactions and excuses the bear fans come up with, its still just a fast put together but atleast whats on that one page basically has more than all 30+ pages of them going back and forth with like...no, bigger, stronger win...lol wow thats really scientific and convincing.

You can also post the leopard vs tiger thread too:

http://allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=35256


Pretty sure tiger fans will make up some ubseen bull crap, since the thread leads to the other forum which shows like 50 sources that state wild dogs usually chase, tree, harrass and even kill tigers like nothing. lol Theres probably more accounts of wild dogs killing tigers than there is of hyenas killing lions, even though hyenas roll in bigger packs and are in general twice to even 4 x bigger than the wild dogs. The tiger wouldnt last in the open grounds against pack animals, never mind hyena, it would only take 5 or so to shred any sized tiger to peices.


The lion is vastly superior in durability, espeacially the ones with manes on there underside which protects them from being disembowled, bears, tigers and belly maneless lions have all been disemboweled before, but never heard of a underside maned lion being disemboweled, this is doubly so with boars, theres like 20 accounts each for tigers and bears being disembowled by boars, which proves their vulnerability, they can die instantly that way when the stomach/intistines falls out, the heart and stuff falls downard too, killing the animal.

Lions like these would be hard pressed to dissembowel:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cache4.asset-cache.net/gc/10012847-side-view-of-a-male-african-lion-on-rock-gettyimages.jpg%3Fv%3D1%26c%3DIWSAsset%26k%3D2%26d%3DTfZjJ2IskAKYN9%252BZCuyfuRVMs0cn8jXb%252FeeaHDyZfR8EpZKVVJFXI530Xb%252Fzo%252B00&imgrefurl=http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/photo/side-view-of-a-male-african-lion-on-rock-high-res-stock-photography/10012847&usg=__PkWev-nRdl-5jvsNl6RYC-hq1Cs=&h=338&w=507&hl=en&start=17&zoom=1&tbnid=2UX_NR9qRgB-GM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=131&ei=GuzoVO_6FdPioATx64KYDw&sa=X&ved=0CD0QrQMwEA

http://ak.scr.imgfarm.com/anim/md/CB051566.jpg


Only one or two accounts exist so far of lions being disembowled, and most likely they had no belly mane, there are tons of bears/tigers who were disemboweled by african lions, pumas, boars, leopards and other animals...so again the mane is a big advantage in a fight, both at the under side and the trachea. Again the lion is more diverse in hunting, this is why there are records of killing bears/tigers in more diverse ways then vice versa, like:

- Blows to the head: (bears, leopards, elands, giraffes, oxen)
- Disemboweling: (King edward vs dan)
- Skull crush with bite: (Velar via ganges river)
- Trachea bite: (Tons from clyde beatty an more)
- Unity overwhelming: (tons of zoos and menageries)
- Blows to the back: (brown bears, siberian tigers, other lions)


No bear/tiger has killed well maned lions at all, other than the fictional and novel book/article. The only way I see a bear/tiger killing a well maned lion is ...by overwhelming him through out the entire fight, which tigers can hardly go more than 1 or 2 rounds, and probably only the larger bears of 1,000 lbs and up could crush the lion, but thats quite hard since the lion is very active in the fight and has all the panthera attributes of speed, agility, dexterity, flexibility and manuverability. Again, its not like bears are super durable to blunt force either...el burro aka donkeys has smashed in grizzly bears faces, broken his jaw, ribs, back and caved in his skull more than several times. And I'm pretty sure if leofwin lends a hand he can give us atleast 10 more accounts of lions killing bears, as he has different resources than me. But no dought theres more accounts, I highly dought thats all there is in all of history. lol I'm pretty sure we'll find more.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2015 at 04:55
Again, the 2 biggest things the lion has going for him in combat is his Defence (Mane that extends to the underside) and Offence (differently/superior styled striking method)...no apex predator has as much written highlighting those two things about them with actual proof of videos and photos to back it up, as lions are different from all other cats:

- They have manes which no other big cat has.
- They roar all through the day and night, which no other big cat does.
- They have sociotys of past 20 members in their groups, which no other big cat has.
- They are the tallest even taller than other cats like saber tooth, and other extinct cats who were heavier.
- And uses his paws more than any other big cat specifically for striking stunning, bone breaking and killing blows.

Lions strength in striking is usually always mentioned with him:


Tigers greediness and savagery is always the highlight of him:



No apex predator has the amount of practice on a vast diversity of prey as the lion does:


Power paws…A blow from the paws stuns the prey:
https://books.google.com/books?id=hTdSQXn4-dkC&pg=PA22&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SozpVM3SOsiDoQTF3ILIDw&ved=0CBQQ6AEwBw

A male lions shoulders and front legs are so strong that it can cripple animals such as antelopes and hyenas with a single blow
https://books.google.com/books?id=HX4RejsIGEYC&pg=PA9&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SozpVM3SOsiDoQTF3ILIDw&ved=0CBgQ6AEwCQ

Immediate deatii follows a blow from its tremendous paw, and the prey is then dragged off to be devoured at leisure
https://books.google.com/books?id=xQ0bAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA713&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=G43pVLOKJ8rroATg4oDgDg&ved=0CBYQ6AEwCDgK

In fact, it is the lioness that normally has to do all the difficult job of stalking and making a kill, and it is then that the lion, and usually a grumpy old lion, steps in and ... Dickins easily killed a sturdy hyena with a single blow of his great front paw.
~I Walk with Lions: The Story of Africa's Great Animal Preserves, The Royal National Parks of Kenya, as Told by Their First Director Mervyn Cowie
Macmillan, 1963 - Zoology - 245 pages

It kills man and comparatively small animals, such as deer and antelopes, with a blow of its terrible paw,
~ The Naturalist's Note Book: A Monthly Record of Anecdotes Reeves and Turner, 1868 - Natural hist

The other lions follow, and the nearest brings the antelope down with a spring and a blow of its forepaw.
~ antelope Rennie Montague Bere Arco Pub. Co., 1970 - Nature - 96 pages

The lion's method of killing its prey is as follows : Small animals are knocked over with a quick blow of the paw,
~J. L. Cloudsley-ThompsonG.T. Foulis, 1967 - Animals - 204 pages

he came up to the zebra, he made a sudden spring and with his right paw struck the animal a terrific blow on the neck.
~ Carl Ethan Akeley, Mary L. Jobe Akeley, Mary Lenore Jobe Akeley Dodd, Mead & Company, 1932 - Animal behavior - 260 pages

blow from his terrible paw cun knock over the largest animals, and crush any of the smaller — a dog or an antelope
~ 'New and old', ed. by C. Gutch

antelope, for example, is either killed instantly by a sharp blow from the lion's powerful paw, or pulled down and
~ Wild Life Illustrated: A Comprehensive Survey of the Animal Life of the WorldE. G. BoulangerOdhams Press, 1950 - Animal behavior - 512 pages

blood, as the bite is not necessary to kill, the blow from the mighty paws having already destroyed all power of resistance.
~The Book of Popular Science, Volume 2Grolier Society, 1957 - Natural history - 4294 pages

That blow from the lion's paw may break the leg. If not it numbs it so badly the beast cannot use it
~Nada: the Southern Rhodesia Native Affairs Department Annual, Issue 29 Southern Rhodesia. Dept. of Native Affairs

an attempt to snatch a leg bone. The lion's paw, driven by coiling masses of muscle, caught him a blow that hurled his body twenty feet
~ The way of the lion Alden Gifford Stevens Frederick A. Stokes Company, 1939 - Animals - 144 pages

for, by a single blow, the lion can rip up the side of a horse or a buffalo.
https://books.google.com/books?id=E0sDAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA114&dq=%22blow%22+lions+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-ZjpVKyZAoWyogTD_oBY&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjjgAw

A single blow with a lion's paw or an elephant's trunk will put an end to his existence.
https://books.google.com/books?id=dmtEAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA115&dq=%22blow%22+lions+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PZjpVPz6LMvmoATntIDYDg&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATjCAw

him, but he was quite dead ; the blow with the lion's paw bad fractured his skull.
https://books.google.com/books?id=uq4UAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA521&dq=%22blow%22+lions+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=MpXpVNvXG8_coATT1ILwDg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzjKAg

The strength of a full-grown Lion in his prime is prodigious; he can fell an ox with a blow of his paw,
https://books.google.com/books?id=LfomAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1249&dq=%22blow%22+lions+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=M5bpVLG5EZLaoATr6YDwDg&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATjyAg

a single blow of his powerful paw brought the antelope on its haunches, another struck almost at the same stretched its body lifeless on the plain
https://books.google.com/books?id=Xl8EAAAAQAAJ&pg=RA1-PA114&focus=viewport&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html

Not only has the lion advantage of great courage—at least, except when comingin contact with those he feels to be his masters—and of great swiftness, but his strength is prodigious. He will fell an ox or an antelope with a single blow of his paw,
https://books.google.com/books?pg=PA210&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&ei=UZDpVMyaGsbeoASV3oHQDg&id=aOlDAQAAMAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text

or I have known him to break the spine of an ox with a single blow of his
tremendous fore-paw;
https://books.google.com/books?id=jx1fAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA452&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UZDpVMyaGsbeoASV3oHQDg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDhk

One enormous bound enables the lion to spring on its back, and one blow with his paw breaks its spine.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3ENJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA181&dq=%22blow%22+lion+antelope+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UZDpVMyaGsbeoASV3oHQDg&ved=0CBgQ6AEwCThk


I would say the animal that keeps the lions paw the most game, strong, conditioned, battle ready and effective would be antelopes...there are about a 100 different type of sub-specifics of antelope...when I thought of antelope I thought of tiny impala, and gazelles, but theres actually hundreds of them, majority just as big and even heavier than the lion him self, with larger ones like kudu, sables, elands and others who can reach over a ton like the lord derby giant antelope. While the tiger has only around 20 ungulates, and kodiak bears less than that, they dont have any thing to practice paw smashing as a tactics, so they wont be as practiced as the lion. Again, tiger and bear fanatics are trying to say things that is basically non-existant in the practiced world of these anaimals, its not to say they cant throw devastating blows, its they arnt as practiced at it, a human who hasnt fought a day in his life can still throw a wild punch, but compare that punch to a practiced pro boxer or ufc fighter with like a hundred wins under their belts, and the difference on average is hilariously one sided. lol Tigers and bears resemble the average human, probably going through their lives with a handfull of fights no more than 10, lions have fighting and striking down their opponents as part of their occupation, lions resembling a professional fighter like Rocky marciano and Mike tyson, both reknowned specifially for exclusive knock out punches, not once, or twice in their lives, but 30+ each.

For a tiger to win, he would have to rely more on luck than anything, and for a bear to win, he has to be near a ton and get the jump on a lion first, in a fair fight average or at max weights, I favor the more skillful mixed/diverse fighter, not just the one who out weighs/sizes his opponent...


Sammy scaff taller and physically bigger than tyson:



Just like how a bear or tiger standing on their hind legs would be taller than a lion, and out weighing him, with being bigger in size...yet this is what happen to scaff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP0oAbiIeMs


Just like what happened to the hundred something accounts and times a lion fought a bigger tiger and bear...dropped like a sack of patatoes...dont forget leopards who killed bengal tigers, and as I added about 5 more accounts of pumas killing bears onto the lion vs bear thread with these too thats gona be added in:

two pumas beat up bear and take his kill:
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84026853/1886-01-27/ed-1/seq-2.pdf.

Artifact of a puma biting a bears neck:
https://books.google.com/books?id=TSnn1u6qmekC&pg=PA38&dq=%22struggle+between+a+grizzly%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fXzpVIvrNsbeoASV3oHQDg&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ

Pumas have always been known to kill grizzly bears:
https://books.google.com/books?id=m35NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1189&dq=mccloud+river+indians+panther+grizzly&hl=en&sa=X&ei=j4DpVKzMM4auogTmyYD4Dg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA

Pumas kill bears:
https://books.google.com/books?id=TE83QfsayEoC&pg=PA46&lpg=PA45&focus=viewport&dq=san+bernardino+argus+grizzly+bear+panther&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


lol Catch you laters.
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Knight
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2015 at 15:27
Prime, I cannot post anything in Carnivora since they banned me due to the first and single post I made. Now I can only visit the webb but not post. These guys are too fanatical to accept any opinion different to their almost religious devotion for the tiger.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2015 at 16:04
lol No worrys...

They can stay in their little world of bear owns elephants and tigers can slew a armys of lions. The desperation of blocking things in favor of lions and banning people who present valid arguments only provokes and feeds the engine of truth into cranking out even more factual content. They'll just keep making more aliases, faking things and erasing things against their agenda, which basically admits defeat or atleast is trying to hide something they dont people to know...look at wiki, pckts had to make another alias and erase all the things supporting the lion, and use his same old info hes been using for going on 10 years now, what the F is wrong with these retards? XD XD XD Nothing new since that long? lol Let them have it, once we all unite, leofwin, bold, lioness, Counter-strike, and the rest on a formal forum, all of us can pitch in even more all at once...this would no dought speed up the process instead of here and there post, we can all useour own resources and add in tons of more accounts, opinions from experts and artifacts.

Its not even childish, its just pathetic...anyways, heres some cool stuff I just found a minute or two ago:


A tiger or possibly several tigers might have been killed by leopards:



A panther suddenly made a pass at a tiger and in a few seconds the cage was filled with snarling, whirling beasts with the professor in the middle of a ton of animated fury, clawing and howling around him. When it was over and the fur had settled five animals were dead and the dancing cougar maimed for life. Only one, a lion, was unhurt, he having sat out the affair on a high perch. Doctors took 60 stitches in Keller’s skin to close cuts and gashes.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QwnUo9eDlXIJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/53363422/+site:newspapers.com++%22Lion+named%22+tiger+dead&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


I'll try and see if I can find the exact photo of that exact incident, to see how many different cats were there, one or more deaths could have been leopards killing tigers, because the only one un-hurt was the lion, who probably was like, go at em leopards... you got this, I know you can kill a tiger, so I'll just chill. lol


Some mix ins of Beatty, top heavy, tigers throat vulnerability:

" Nine times out of ten a lion will lick a tiger," he says. "A tiger will fight with all four feet and with his teeth, while a lion generally uses only his two fore- paws and teeth-but a lion can take it better than a tiger. One glance at the two will show you bow much heavier he is around the neck and shoulders, although the lion s total weight Is not much greater on the average.

"The tiger Is quicker and attacks with fury at first, soon weakens and gets more and more on the defensive. The lion remains more aggressive. He keeps trying for the tigers throat until he gets it, while the tiger Is apt to hold desperately to one of the lion s legs, which does him relatively little harm.

"The lion fights more like a dog, while the tiger fights in the sly manner of a cat. Lions will gang up together and help each other in a fight, but tigers never do. I know these things

With three broken ribs, Beatty is attended after being mauled in Indiana by Samson, one of his lions. because I've had plenty of such fights happen in my cage, and often one of the cats is dead

before we can stop it. Since 1927, w h e n I started putting lions and tigers in the cage to- gether, I have had twenty-five tigers killed by lions a n d no lions killed by tigers."
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kNWvn1ZRFZcJ:http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1938/05/15/page/101/article/master-of-man-eaters/index.html+site:archives.chicagotribune.com+%22fight+between%22+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Every thing beatty is saying can still be seen today, as he mentions the lion with one look, can be seen in the front as in his shoulders and neck area, topped in with his height to be the taller and larger in muscle formation than the tiger:


And they are on all equaled ground, lions are just vastly superior in the front, where all the striking power must be generated from.


Lion kills tiger instantly, the mane is hard to bypass, bear kills tiger, ram/goat kills tiger:

The most of these animals are the lion and tiger which can lick the other?

This is a question widely argued between those who hack the lion for king of beasts and those who hold that the tiger is really his superior. But, fortunately for our prog- , there is plentiful material on the point. There is even a of the earth (near Jaipur in northwestern India) * both lions and tigers are. running around in the same jungle at the same time, the lions having been imported from Africa many years ago and set loose there by a who was tired of only tigers. The lions. incidentally, are holding their own in ; particular

for settling once and for all the old lion-tiger feud is Clyde Beatty's big cage, which daily is filled with lions and tigers by the dozen. This suc- cessful lion and tiger trainer was visited by the writer recently at his winter quarters In Rochester, nd., and ,poke in no uncertain terms as to the lion s superiority.

"Nine times out of ten a lion will lick atiger," he said. "A tiger will fight with all four feet and with his teeth, while a lion generally uses only his two forepaws and teeth. But a lion Is tougher than a tiger. he can take it better. See that big lion in that cage over there? See how much heavier lie is than a tiger, especially around the neck and shoulders? Ills mane protects him, too. And the lion is a more aggressive fighter than the tiger. he keeps attacking, keeps trying for the tigers throat until he gets It. The tiger generally grabs hold where he can-maybe on the lion s shoulder or a paw-and won t let go. That way the tiger doesn't hurt the lion vitally unless he hap- pens to be lucky enough to get a throat hold In the beginning-but a flon s throat Isn't so easy to reach."

Do you ever have fights between several lions and several tigers at the same time?"

"Rarely," replied Beatty. "But when such a free-for-all does start the lions generally get the best of it. You see, lions will gang up' whereas tigers won t."

"Have you put on many fights between one lion and one tiger?"

"Only once or twice intentionally. It's too expensive buying new animals. But I've had plenty of such fights happen accidentally, and often one of the cats is dead before we can stop It. Since 1927, when I started putting lions and tigers in the cage together, I have had twenty-five tigers killed by lions and no lions killed by tigers."

My personal opinion is that if a wild tiger and lion were put together the tiger might be somewhat the quicker of the two and perhaps a bit more ferocious, even though the male lion is usually heavier than the male tiger.

Beginning of an actual battle between a tiger and a lion of a circus. Two minutes after the photograph was taken the tiger was dead.

Beatty once had a Russian bear which killed a tiger- by jumping down upon him from behind. The light was hardly fair, though, for the tiger was not only taken unawares but was not very well anyway.

Beatty does not believe, however, that a bear Is a real match for a lion.

Buck, speaking on the subject, says:

" The bears are very powerful, the big bears of the north country, but they are not as fast as members of the cat family, an(l I doubt if even the biggest bear would be able to get the better of a good big lion, tiger, or leopard il the prime of life."


But on one occasion a lighting ram was pit- ted against a tiger. The ram was determined to get that tiger, and attacked with such savagery lsat "a well placed blow in the ribs caused the downfall of tile giant cat."
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ynWXoVoyzjYJ:http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1937/04/11/page/105/article/whos-the-king-of-beasts+site:archives.chicagotribune.com+%22fight+between%22+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


I guess we can add that into the repatwa of lions killing tigers under beatty in terms accounting each one, since i never heard him saying a lion killed a tiger right after when a photo was taken. He also says in different words how the lions mane isnt easy to by-pass, while the lion being more offensive and tiger defensive is the reason why he wont stop until he gets the tigers throat...thats important to know because a more gamed animal no matter how off the size is, still has alot more chances of killing his advesary.


Another of beattys lion whips tiger:

Among these big cats, all of which he trained, is a lion named "Negro," which nearly put a period Beatty's career when it attacked him at Peru, Ind, last year. This same lion was credited with saving his life a year earlier in Detroit when it jumped on a tiger that already had downed the trainer
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:En2AQJ6SlH4J:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/23746685/+site:newspapers.com++%22Lion+named%22+tiger+dead&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


I say whip, because its not like a lion can just ask politely for the tiger to get off, no dought the lion named Negro, gave the tiger a beat down...I wonder if thats the lion that counter strike once found.

For bears, they are usually killed by blunt force (horses) or their trachea is shown to being highly vulnerable:

Horses are known to circle around an kick a bear to death
https://books.google.com/books?id=SXU4AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA198&dq=Horse+%22kick%22+bear&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NbLpVP3HE8isogT7_4LwDw&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw

The throat is vulnerable
http://www.old-print.com/mas_assets/full/N7331933247.jpg





Edited by Prime - 22-Feb-2015 at 18:23
Be honset to thy self!
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Knight
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2015 at 02:38
I agree. Lions are the M. Tyson-like ones among all carnivora, including Kodiaks, Amurs, Nepals, etc.
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