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Topic ClosedLions vs. Tigers

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Poll Question: If lions and tigers were to have a deathmatch, who would win?
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Lions vs. Tigers
    Posted: 30-Apr-2014 at 15:23
Heres a more comprehensive list of Clyde beattys observations:

Clydes introduction about lions vs tigers:







Lions On average are bigger and heavier then tigers:



WILD ONES PREFFERED

(1 9 3 4)

Oddly enough, it develops that cats captured in real jungle are far more satisfactory for use in an animal act than cats which have been raised in captivity. "It's like this," Beatty explains. "You take a lion, say, that has been born in captivity. A lion cub is woolly and cute and attractive, and everybody likes to fondle it and pick it up and pet it. You can do that, you know, with a lion cub when it's little, if it was born in a cage. "W^ELL, what happens? The lion grows " up used to such"treatment. It gets petted and fondled right up to the time it's an adult. And because it does, it gets thoroughly used to human beings. It loses its fear of them. A lion raised that way has no more of that 'instinctive' fear of a man than a dog has. "By and fey you get a lion of that kind in the cage as part of your act. Now every cat has its off days, same as anybody else, when.it feels surly, or restless, or peevish. Suppose you've got a tame lion that feels that way--and they all do, now and then, because of the wild streak in them. You've got nothing to cow him with. He isn't afraid of you. He's used to human beings, and the mere fact that you're a man doesn't bother him. So, if he takes the notion to, hell go for you, and then you're in for plenty of trouble. "With a jungle cat, it's different.. No matter how long they're trained, they never quite get used to human beings. They never quite get rid of that inborn awe in the presence of human beings. Of course, they can lose it, temporarily, in a fight; if they get angry enough, or nervous enough, they can forget about it for the time being. But it's always there, in the bade of their minds, and when they try to start anything with you you can usually remind them of it. "That's why I prefer to use jungle cats. 1 couid raise tame ones easily enough. As a matter of fact., I haveraised some, and I've used one or two in my act. But the wild ones are a lot safer to handle." A SK Beatty which is the more dangerous animal to handle, the lion or the tiger, and he'll tell you it's pretty much a toss-up. "Lions will gang up on you," he says reflectively. "If you're in the cage with them and one of them comes for you, the others are pretty likely to join in on it. A lion won't sit on its pedestal and watch a fight. It has to get in it. "Tigers are just the opposite. If you have a fuss with a tiger, the other tigers in the cage are apt to stay on the sidelines and look on. They don't gang up. That part of it makes tigers simpler to handle. "On the other hand, lions are bluffers, and tigers aren't. A lion will try you out, to see how far he can go with you.. He'll start to make a rush for yon, for instance, to see How you'll take it. If you stand your ground and don't show, any fear, he'll probably figure that you aren't scared of him, and he'll back down, "But the tiger won't do that. He doesn't bluff. Either he goes for you or he doesn't. If he starts to. he goes through with it. The time to stop him is before he starts, "The tiger starts a fight faster than the lion. He rushes right in and gives everything he's got right away. But he hasn't got the lion's sticking powers. If things aren't going his way, after a minute or so, he's pretty likely to quit. "The Hon. on the other hand, can take it better. He doesn't start as fast as the figer does, but he lasts longer. He's a little like * bulldog he takes hold and doesn't let go
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LzphGQzrvZYJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/29808426/+site:newspapers.com+clyde+beatty+wild+jungles+prefers+captivity&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



http://www.google.com/search?q=+Guinness+Clyde+Raymond+Beatty+handled+more+than+40+%27cats%27+%28mixed+lions+and+tigers%29&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=4HhTUsrhKKjgiAKfqoHoAQ&sa=N


Clyde and lion quickly saves tiger from being killed:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/taming-jungle-kings-aka-clyde-beatty-tames-jungle/query/01445100

Detroit kills Empress, Alice and Sleika:





The fight started at the conclusion of the act, Just as I stepped out of the cage Most of the lions and tigers had returned to their own cages by the chute, 'For some time Detroit (the lion) had been casting a wicked eye in the general direction o£ Alice (the tiger) This time he was upon her before my assistants'or I were aware that he planned to attack. "They fought and clawed- one another for 20 minutes, and then as a last resort I went back into the cage to try and pry them apart." His efforts as well as the discharge of several rounds of blank cartridges failed to pry the jungle beasts apart. He continued: "They didn't pay any attention to me. Alice was on the defensive Detroit hit her with his paw and broke her back, and then permitted the attendants to put him back in his cage. Alice was Detroit's second victim in a week, the other having died after a similar fight in Muskegon

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fnDOcQx2fsMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/54682993/+alice+lion+fights+tiger+muskegon+site:newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


(1 9 3 5)
Seven 1 CLYDE BEATTY AND HIS ANIMALS HERE THURSDAY Clyde Beatty and his lions and tigers. Beatty Is the most talked of animal trainer In the world and presents with his own circus one of the greatest collections of wild beasts ever assembled. Few who see wild animals In cages realize the vast amount of , danger and expense neces- to get them there. The greatest danger lies In capturing the wild animals in their native country. With Cole Brothers-Clyde Beatty circus, which will give two performances in Emporia Thursday on the Katy grounds, there are several hundred wild animals, most of which were captured in the forests and jungles of their native country."There is no more ticklish or dangerous task than tracking lions in she vast Nubian deserts," said Beatty. "The scorching sun pours down with such force that few men can stcnd it. The effect on the eyes is blinding. There Is little or no shade. The wariest and most careful hunter may be tracking an animal and at tha same time be tracked by the animal he is seeking. which may spring on him at any moment. "For capturing full-grown lions, large traps of various forms are used. One trap Is square, one of the sides lifting upon a spring like the old-fashioned mouse trap. The trap Is baited with a piece of fresh meat and as soon as the lion has entered the trap the door shuts down and he Is a prisoner.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nEhgXMQrZFYJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/10233973/+site:newspapers.com+scientist+clyde+beatty+lion+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



Tigers are afraid of the lions, want no part of them:
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg


Clyde beattys performance:
http://fastimages.net/films/movie.jsp?id=3062


(1 9 3 7)
His harmless weapons are a kitchen chair, a whip and a revolver filled with blank cartridges. Clyde Beatty says he's tried working with tame animals born in captivity, and he prefers wild ones any time. Tame animals are just like spoiled children they've been pampered and petted until they refuse to do anything.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:iL6lPTe3WQMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/11877338/+site:newspapers.com+clyde+beatty+wild+ones+spolied&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


THREE ARE in position and suddenly Sultan and Brutus are at it. There is snarling and growling and Beatty moves fiercely about the floor and swears a blue streak to the cage handlers .to open the. chute door so he can get the tigers out.

~The Corpus Christi Caller-Times 13 January 1963 › Page 16
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:sawT67bUMzkJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/22419140/+lion+tiger+fight+brutus+++++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


When the smoke cleared one tiger was dead a second so badly wounded he died:

http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PT7&dq=lion+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GLCUUeCOCKi0iQLOqYGACw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ


(1 9 4 7)

Beatty, who became recognized as a wild animal trainer at the age of 16, prefers wild animals to those bred in captivity. Wild creatures have more fear of man, he explains, and therefore behave better than tame lions or tigers. , In the show now but not ready to go into the act' "are two new tigers and a leopard which arrived only recently from, 'the Far East. They will be on exhibit in the menagerie tent. Fed Horscmeat Thebig cats are fed horsemeat daily except Sundays

~Clippings on 22 October 1947 › Page 7

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:HvuTD3sdZwYJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/22273865/+site:newspapers.com+clyde+beatty+wild+jungles+prefers+captivity&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


A lion kills Puna:




Lions attack to protect the females:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:c85_VFhdD9gJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/3869055/+clyde+beatty+nero+fight+++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



Prince kills tigers Rosie, Theba, Slieka the 2nd and a lion:



http://books.google.com/books?id=OR8EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA37&dq=prince+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=S3DtUufQKMj6oAT1wIHABw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAg




Regarding the big cage movie, 3 fights took place, the first was sultan who killed Tommy, the second was Caesar who killed Bobby, and the third fight was what we see in the movie:



Thrilling story of fight to finish.


"We shot the scene without a single rehearsal", beatty said. As usual the director insisted on a rehearsal, but I convinced him the best opportunity for a realistic battle would be when the two animals first met. You simply can't rehearsal a scene like that. Hence the cameramen were ready and the fight was a real one, unfaked... And claw to claw, fang to fang battle between natrual enimies of the cat family proved conclusively that the fighting prowess of the lion is superior to that of the tiger according to beatty the tiger lost the battle after a terrific struggle. We used a untamed tiger for the battle scene because we figured a good fight was a likely to ensue, the trainer continued. That tiger never before been in a cage with a lion.

Nearly a score of movie stars watched the battle and the majority of them bet on the tiger. I had no idea which would win, but I figured sultan had an even chance, though lions are gang fighters and a tiger is supposed to be invinceable in a single-handed battle with almost any animal. My reasons for giving the lion an even chance was that I knew that when one takes a hold with his teeth it is in a vital spot, while a tiger sinks his teeth and hangs on whereever he grabs first. Thats exactly why tommy lost the fight. While the tiger is simply hanging on to a shoulder, the lion was manuvering into position to get his enemys throat, all the while using his blade-like claws to great advantage, from now on I'll bet on the lion.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/76673362


Caesar kills bobby:


Already Caesar's jaws had crunched Bobby's neck and when I got there Caesar was shaking Bobby's limp, bloody head and throat from side to side. He was dead.
http://www.google.com/search?q=clyde+beatty+bobby+throat+caesar+&tbm=bks&tbo=1

This is the third tiger we see in the movie the Big cage, confirmed as male tiger and is not Sultan or Caesar, both lions who had large belly manes, this lion has no belly mane an is smaller than the bengal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLpFrTto4jw


Basis his opinion upoun experince:




Clydes wife witnesses a lion killing a tiger: (Harriet Beatty also had a mixed animal act)


"One day I saw a lion kill a tiger in my husband's act, and I'll admit that for several days I hated to hear the overture for my act." L IONS and tigers are quite apt to stage a fight killing at any time”… He has lost 18 tigers and two lions in such battles.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wWrOvDHyKEwJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/19489238/+circus+lion+tiger+battle+++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1

To note, the lions killed were Bessie...who was killed by Sammy the lion, and Detroit the lion who also killed another lion in a free for all.


Lions have manes, while tigers have no such protection:



Memphis kills Sehka:

The perils of circus life proved too much today for Sehka, a three yearold Bengal tigress in Clyde Beatty’s act with Cole Brothers, She died of wounds suffered when she was attacked by Memphis, a lion in the act. during a performance Wednesday night.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:38YsTRHKFiYJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/60957313/+site:newspapers.com++clyde+beatty+memphis+kills+tigress&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Tigers are not calculated fighters:



Two lions kill tiger:


During their first performance this spring and during the act two lions attacked and killed a tiger Mr. Beatty stayed in the cage during the entire fight to keep the other animals from getting into it - - - Mr. Beatty says no matter how well you think you know a tiger or lion, you still cannot trust'them The quiet ones are often the most dangerous
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PSpPbnQ-pWoJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/37645569/+clyde+beatty++two+lions+kill+tiger++++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1





The lion is the aggressor:




Nero kills Pasha saving Beatty's life. (Clyde beatty and Nero)

http://www.google.com/search?q=Nero+the+lion+had+killed+the+feline+tiger+Pasha%2C+in+saving+Beatty%27s+life.&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&tbo=1&tbm=bks&ei=UVtgU4qcIsuHyATgs4GYAQ&sa=N


(1 9 5 4)

Much more important is a sixth sense-an instinct that tells you how far you can go with each cat each day." "There is no such thing as a 'tame' jungle animal," says Beatty. who has dozens of scars to prove his point. 'Once you back down and show a little fear you're licked and from then on your life isn't worth a plugged nickel." Beatty, incidentally, prefers to use only jungle-bred animals. He said: "Contrary to popular belief they are less dangerous than those born in captivity. Part of the job is to bluff the animal. It i hard to convince one raised in captivity that man is formidable. "Try to convince him and you have on your hands the equivalent of a sullen obstinate child whose parents have been to indulgent. "It's all in a lifetime,"
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:2_f-1-yC6XIJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/8810070/+site:newspapers.com+clyde+beatty+wild+jungles+prefers+captivity&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



Lion bites into tigers throat:
http://www.google.com/search?q=++site%3Anews.google.com%2Fnewspapers+lion+sprang+tiger+back+neck++The+tiger+was+just+going+its+wind-up+crouch+when+a+lion+sprang+from+his+pedestal%3B+&ie=ISO-8859-1&source=newspapers


Henry and Tarzan kills toona:
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


25 tigers were killed and not a single lion:
http://books.google.com/books?id=vNsDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA564&dq=since+I+first+began+mixing+the+two+species+popular+mechanics&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fOWeUPS_E8zSigKRu4CQAw&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA


Lion nearly kills bengal:


The lion usually has no fear of the tiger, while tigers usualy fear lions:



Caesar kills two more tigers at a performance and is taken out the act:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Twice+sprang+upon+tigers%2C+killing+each+one+almost+instantly+taken+out+of+the+act+&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Duke whips all of clydes tigers:



Louie is the noted trainer's friend because Louie' once saved Clyde's life. Afew years ago when Clyde was breaking in a new group of lions, and was hard at work on a barrel rolling lion, one of the tigers leaped from his high pedestal onto Beatty's back. The trainer was knocked across the arena, and, as he fell, the tiger shifted his attack, sinking his teeth into Beatty's arm. Then it was that Louie went into action.' He leaped from his pedestal onto the attacking beast.

~Santa Cruz Sentinel 19 May 1946 › Page 2
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gaxn2Ac3lBkJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/57082503/+Circus+enemies+lion+tiger+claw+site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1

The tiger dosen't have the knock out power to K’O a lion



Sultan whips all of his tigers:


Prince, the big circus lion who was admired by so many range people, Beatty was conducting a rehersal preparing for the opening show when Trudy, a new tiger, knocked him down, ripped open his side and bit his arm Prince, one of the 32 lions and tigers in the cage, hurled his bulk against the tiger, knocking the cat away from the trainer.

~Ironwood Daily Globe 2 May 1930 › Page 10
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KJwtw9ecxoIJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/54580964/+lion+trudi++clyde+beatty+tiger++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Regarding his lions, Clyde has worked with 1,000 lions and 1,000 tigers through out his 40 years, and named some of his lions and tigers the same name hence he had both a lion and tiger named Tommy, and both a lion and tiger named Henry which of course many others would eventually have the same name, as for the account he had a lion Named Caesar brother of 1 lion named Prince in the late 20's early 30's who killed Bobby, nearly killed the tiger Sudan and Chester, and in a performance killed two other tigers, he was taken out of the act, later in the late 30's through out the 40's he named another Caesar, 1 of 4 brothers Nero jr, Leo and Brutus who whiped Sammy the lion for killing the lioness Bessie, and this is the 3rd Caesar brother of 2, Caesar lll and Brutus the 2nd, who'm Caesar was known as a tiger killing lion:

Clyde Beatty, world's greatest wild animal trainer, seems to be having trouble with "Caesar," the tiger killing lion. Beatty is insistent but Caesar continues to refuse with lts magnificent display of dental equipment. The Beatty wild animal display is' one of the many thrillers to be seen with the Clyde Beatty Circus, coming to Lebanon on Tuesday

~Lebanon Daily News 12 March 1957 › Page 15

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RAZPeiPW5YAJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/5402584/+Clyde+Beatty,+world%27s+greatest+wild+animal+trainer,+seems+to+be+having+trouble+with+%22Caesar,%22+the+tiger+killing+lion.+Beatty+is+insistent+but+Caesar+continues+to+refuse+withlt.magnificent+display+of+dental+equipment.+The+Beatty+wild+animal+display+is%27one+of+the+many+thrillers+to+be+seen+with+the+Clyde+Beatty+Circus,+coming+to+Lebanon+on+Tuesday&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


The lion has a harder strike, and is mentally wired in battle:



Boss tweeds kills three tigers:


Boss Tweed," Clyde said, "was one of the greatest fighters I've ever seen, in addition to his noble looks. He did some of his cleverest fighting in the Rochester Massacre. That was this spring. When Iwo score of lions and tigers were in the arena for a dress rehearsal. One, on a high seat, reached down to take a cuff at the cat below. They frequently do that without much happening. But in this case the caton the- high scat fell off and landed on the one below. The one below, thinking he was attacked, started to fight. In a second it was a free-for-all. In such a fight the lions have two distinct advantages. Their first is their thick mane which prevents the tigers from getting to their throats. Their second is their clannish way of ganging up on a tiger. A tiger will justwatch another tiger being attacked. The lions join each other. An animal attendant excitedly raised a gate into the shoot so the beasts could return to their cages. Into the shoot ran three Bengal tigers with Boss Tweed in pursuit. "For twenty minutes they battled. Boss Tweed killed the three tigers, but himself was almost torn to ribbons. He recovered but somehow he never seemed to be the same. His spirit or his fighting nerve was gone. The other morning I opened his cage door and he was dead, for seven years I trained him, the longest of any of my cats. I was greatly attached to him.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ib03tzrotAAJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/195707/+Clyde+beatty+boss+tweed+killed+the+three+tigers&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1




“This is due not to any inability of the animals to acclimate themselves but the fact that in the fights which frequently occur between the lions and tigers the 'tigers are almost invariably'killed”
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tgAn4iti4eIJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/21429094/+clyde+beatty++lion+tiger++killed+++site:www.newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Beatty said the tiger that was killed was one of his veteran performers and had attacked him years ago, sendinging him to the hospital...She was the whole act, he said,"I loved cat I wouldn't have taken $10,000 for her" He explained the tiger was a roll over cat....He said he will watch the killer lion very closely from now on...the biggest expense I have is tigers killed by lions he said, They are natrual enimies...that makes the show better, He said lions have killed probably 50 tigers in the years he has been working with the big Jungle cats.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=heA-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=G00MAAAAIBAJ&pg=6300,3617947&dq=clyde+beatty+he+said+lions+had+killed+prob-ably+tigers+in+the+years+he+was&hl=en



These photos, scans and findings comes from Bold champ, Me/Prime, Dalen and the Circus blog along with other circus memoir sites, and various newspaper-archives. Again, these are purely for educational purposes only.

Edited by Prime - 21-May-2014 at 17:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-May-2014 at 10:24
          THE WORLDS STRONGEST STRIKING CARNIVORE





The Three Strongest Things In The Animal World

http://books.google/booksid=2eYpAQAAIAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&pg=PP1&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&q=&sig=ACfU3U0fbpxiqcU4Dv37z7v_KwZhPDW2ew

Let us fancy that we are looking at those terrible front paws with which it strikes the blow. The leg, or forearm, as it is called, measures 19 inches around, and is made up of the hardest of hard bone, with muscle and tendons as strong as the strongest wire. The foot measures 8 inches across. When this foot strikes an animal the lion shoots out its terrible claws, which are hidden, when it walks, inside the joints of the toes. These claws are like great hooks made of yellow horn. They tear the flesh off an animal as we would strip the peel from an orange.
The force with which these claws are driven in is almost more than we can
believe. We are told that the three strongest things in the animal world
are these: first, the blow from the tail of a whale, second, the kick of a giraffe, and third the blow from a lion's paw.
The forearm of the lion is worked by great muscles at the shoulder, and the blow which it makes is really like the blow from a steam hammer. No wonder that it can kill a man or a big animal with ease.

The lion and the tiger are the largest of the cat family. They are really great fierce cats. Your pet kitten is simply a young lion or tiger on a tiny scale. Notice the kitten's claws: they are made in the same way as the lion's. Notice how rough its tongue is upon your hand. The lion's tongue is like that, only much more rough. On it's tongue little hard points, like fragments of horn, stick up, so that with these the lion can tear pieces of meat from a bone just as if it were using a file. The Lion's Roar In The Forest And How He Gets His Supper Another thing in which the lion is like the cat is that it cannot run fast for a long distance. It can spring a long way, and it can bound along at a great rate for a short time; but, just as a dog can race a cat, so a deer can easily race a lion. So the lion has to be very cunning to catch swift animals for its supper. When the lion goes out to a pool to drink at night, he knows that other animals will be coming to the same spot. So he puts his great mouth to the ground and roars. There is no other sound in the animal world like the roar of a lion. It is so loud, so deep and so powerful, that it terrifies all the animals which hear it. It seems to send them wild with terror. The lion knows this, and he keeps on roaring. The result is that the animals which hear it forget everything in their terror; they rush madly to and fro, and one of them generally dashes straight into the mouth of the lion. That is one of his ways of catching a supper. There is another way.
Suppose that there are deer right out on the plain. It is of no use for the lion to go galloping out there, for

The lion Is the king of beasts, the lord of the forest. A blow from a lion's paw Is one of the strongest thlngs In the world, like a blow from a steam-hammer. http://books.google.com/books?id=2eYpAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA92&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Dil_U62jBcTdoAS9oYDgDg&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBQ


Straight up knock out power:




Lets see another reason why the lions strike is much stronger, superior, and more powerful a blow:

(Andrew. Jackson. Howe M.D.)


http://booksgle/booksid=LxugAAAAMAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&pg=PP1&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&q=&sig=ACfU3U3W4j8CJ925wK3gUfhVlVt5jLt4yA

The "king of beasts" does not possess so many fine points as his confrere, "the Royal Bengal tiger," yet he has the world-wide reputation of being at the head of the felines—a cowardly, treacherous class; and of personifying courage and magnanimity, qualities almost worshiped by mankind. The average tiger weighs a few pounds less than the lion, yet is more supple of limb and lithe of body. Its hide is golden, striped with black, and presents a handsome marking that begets a feeling of dread. That tail, never at rest, suggests snake-like coils. The tiger lurks in jungle and never gives its victims fair play. Having such a variagated and lustrous coat, it must keep out of sight if it would not scare away its prey.

The lion has a dull, tawny color, which prevents him from being discovered until its victims are within reach, hence he lies down in the open grazing grounds of the antilope, or by the paths that ruminants make in going to food and drink. The lion lies in wait by the side of a bank of yellow earth, or in brown weeds, that the color of its skin may correspond with the surroundings of its lurking place; and it bounds upon its victim with a terrific roar which paralyzes the timid creature about to be devoured.

A distinguishing feature of the lion is an accumulation of weight and strength in its anterior parts, although the lion's neck is covered with* thick mass of hair and mane, giving the beast a formidable appearance,there exists beneath this innocent hump a muscular development that surpasses the same parts in the tiger. The osseous and muscular structures of the lion's head are superior to those of the tiger; and the fore-legs and paws possess greater strength than the tiger's anterior extremities. The structures constituting the pelvic girdle of the tiger are perhaps larger and stronger than similar parts in the lion. In all other respects the average lion is more than a match for the average tiger.
http://books.google.com/books?id=LxugAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA252&dq=tiger+lion+biting+the+mane&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sxxfU-K_GoiZyASYg4LwBA&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBA


Okay, so lets see it in action:



Lions are exceeded in size among the cats only by tigers; they may weigh up to 6OO pounds and measure 10 feet, nose to tail tip. And, next to the kick of a kangaroo, the swipe of the lions paw is unquestionably the most powerful blow in the animal kingdom I have been with African tribes whose language contains no word for lion for fear that using it would call the lion's attention to themselves.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:glJnvqwDnKcJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/18552723/+the+swipe+of+the+lions+paw+is+unquestionably&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


But is it consistant? Sure looks like it:



(What about other animals way faster than than lions in speed, dexterity and agility?)

Black Panther Fights To Save Life 01 Mate; Killed By Lions Chicago -Ml- A gallant black panther, onging but still full of jungle courage, fought to tho death with five lions to save his mate at the Drookfield Zoo. Visitors watched in horror on Wednesday as Snowball, a 12-year old panther from Sumatra, sprang at five lions who had been let into his cage hy mistake. S n o w b a l l never had a chance. A single blow from a huge lion's paw broke his back and he was dead within moments.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:r_ZfaWq73XMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/37604258/+site:newspapers.com+blow+lions+paw&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Lions tourqe in movement seems to leave smashing hits:


(Records of the lions paw striking strength)

Death From Blow of Lion

St. James's Gazette. V Some men are naturally fitted to tackle a lion; others are doomed if chance brings about so undesirable a meeting. The unfortunate man whom lions have killed at Blackpool is of the latter category. It is by no means certain, however, that the three inmates of the den into which he so unwisely entered attacked him. There was a similar adventure at Astley's. A man entered the theatre in the early morning and foud to his horror that the four lions , there had broken from their cage. One gave him a blow with its paw, then took him in its mouth. . The blow from a lion's paw is said to be after the stroke of a whale's tail and the kick of a giraffe, the strongest thing in nature. So that the victim was dead when the keeper went to the rescue. Only one lion had concerned itself with the man, and. was now sitting" over him as a dog sits over a bone.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aoSyg3shvy4J:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/57473850/+site:newspapers.com+african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


(Straigh up knock out power)



The lion is so-such a large animal, the lamest specimens weighing' not more than 400 or 500 pounds. But in proportion to his size there is no other animal that approaches his muscular power. The blow of his paw is like tlie blow of steam hammer in a foundery. Here is a characteristic example of his strength. A trusty and experienced, Transval hunter of Laiargue's volunteers observed a lion on the bank of the Nile, he volunteered to attack it alone and was put shore, he was armed with a single-'imrnHed, rifle. He advanced unconcernedly toward the lion, which had been standing, but now immediately crouched. When within, a few yards of the lion the Xakroovl fired. With a loud roar the lion sprang ou the man. gave him a trifle blow on the shoulder, and fell down by the hunter, who over moved. Now, mark the force of the lion's paw. With a bullet through his heart, tbe lion had struck such a blow that the Takroovi's hand hung from his hip. It had actually been torn from the shoulder and carried all the flesh and muscles from the ribs and the side. The arm only hung by a shred to the hip bone' . - Sir Samuel says in conclusion about th lion: "I shall always admire the calm dignity of appearan've, the massive strength, the quiet determination of expression, and tlie noli me tangere decision of this noble animal
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VZaiRVMw86UJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/32460781/+site:newspapers.com+african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


The cubs of the lion are pretty playful things. Their weight is very great in proportion to their size, and they are stronger than their appearance warrants, so that a playful pat of their paw is far from agreeable. Few people have any conception of the power of a lion's paw. The dissection of the muscles of the fore-arm of the lion gives some idea of the strength that once reposed in those knotty cords, but the force of the blow can only be judged from its effects. It is well known that a stroke from the paw of a lion will fracture a man's skull, or dash even a large beast to the ground; but its real strength is perhaps better exhibited when the animal does not wish to use violence, than when it is excited by rage or hunger. A full grown lioness is a large animal, and more than proportionately heavy; yet I once saw a lion, with the very slightest imaginable wave of his paw, dash his mate from the corner of the cage, where she was rearing against the bars, and send her sprawling on her back as if she had been a little lamb
http://books.google.com/books?id=RHIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA55&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SCx_U_GfFsTdoAS9oYDgDg&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDgU


(Actual occaison a lion breaks a zebras back)
http://books.google.com/books?id=GEYEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA46&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=py1_U4aRK47xoAT7jYKABA&ved=0CBYQ6AEwCDgo


A royal bengal tigress and a fully grown african lion fought to the death the other day in a small zoo at argatala bengal. The lion dodged the first attack, but soon leaped into close quarters and killed the tigress outright. The lion is protected by his mane-which grows longer in captivity he must use one forepaw to balance himself while the tiger can balance on his hindlegs using both paws as weapons. The lion normally weighs about a hundred pounds more than his rival, but the added pounds slow him up. The tigers speed also discounts the more powerful punch, in the lions shoulder muscles.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.google.com+lion+shoulder+tiger+powerful+&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&source=hp&gbv=1


Most powerful paw swipe in action:




(What makes the tiger not have a broken sometimes is because of there flexability and agility in movements, still the tiger feels the pain)




The most instructive piece of information I have been able to obtain concerning the power of the lion's paw to inflict a blow was furnished to me by Mr. Glazebrook.

Lions are sometimes shot at night by what may be called the boma method. It is carried out in the following manner :—A boma capable of containing three men, the hunter and two boys, is made of thorn trees. A donkey is hobbled close to the boma; the hobbling consists in binding the hind-legs together by means of a rope; the fore-legs are also tied together and the loose ends of rope are buried in a hole in the ground and made secure, so that the donkey cannot move and no rope is visible. A hole made in the thorn fence enables the hunter inside to command with his rifle the area occupied by the donkey. The men watch in turn ; if anything is heard it is communicated to the hunter by pinching his foot, snoring and whispering are inadmissible.
This manoeuvre is best carried out on a dark night. The lion and all marauding mammals hate the moon. The earth's satellite must upset the calculations of hungry carnivora; they have no nautical almanac to inform them of its rising and setting.
On this occasion the hunter, after peering through the hole in the boma for two hours, fell asleep: the gun-bearer awakened him by pinching his foot, and he became aware of something moving on the ground rapidly, and this movement was followed by a tremendous crash. He could dimly discern a huge form standing over another form lying on the ground. He fired his heavy rifle at the dark object: this was followed by a heavy fall. On peering through the hole he could make out the donkey standing up.

At dawn, the lion was lying close up to the wall of the boma, dead.
The bullet had entered its head. The donkey appeared to be uninjured, except for a few claw marks about its ears; it was released from its hobble. Later in the day the donkey did not appear to be well and was re-examined : the top of the animal's head appeared as if it consisted of skin only; no bone could be felt. The lion had smitten the head of the donkey so forcibly, and broken it in, that it appeared to be devoid of bone: later in the day the donkey was shot.
http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA208&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&id=zGpWAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


(Its evident why the lion was given a point for an extra striking power)


(Lions have been known to break the necks of much larger horses)

Yes, natives with four paws and black manes, who have eaten up one of our horses.”
The Colonel went on to say that the mountain was only to be approached bya spur on the south-west side. In the narrow defile leading to the spur a troop of lions had taken up their abode. 'These he had endeavoured to dislodge, but, insufficiently armed, he was compelled to beat a retreat, after losing one of his horses by a single blow of a lion’s paw.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Eb0wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA94&dq=african+lions+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uTJ_U-uxE8P9oAT_-4CIAQ&ved=0CAgQ6AEwATiCAQ


van amburgs lion tears tigers paw:
http://books.google.com/books?id=RHIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA55&dq=african+lions+paw+blow+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=7DZ_U7j9HoXpoASEz4HYBA&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjgK


The big lioness queenie, that has been ill for a week... was permitted to go into the runway for a little excersize yesterday afternoon the same time the bear was there...Bruno didn't like the intruder in his domain when queenie was passing, the bear struck her with his huge paw, she retreated and the bear followed her. She crouched in a corner, and he raised himself on his haunches to strike her again. The lioness circled to one side and dodged the blow. Then with bristling hair and tail stiff, she shot one of her great paws and caught bruno in the back of the ear felling him to the floor.

The force of the first blow from queenies paw really settled bruno, it was what a boxer would call a short-arm blow with alot of steam behind it...when the attendents came rushing in queenie sprang off and ran into her cage, where upon bruno had his head crushed and neck broken.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/doc/499651603.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Mar%2005,%201902&author=&pub=Boston%20Daily%20Globe&edition=&startpage=&desc=LIONESS%20KILLS%20A%20BEAR.


(Appearntly upon observation, the tiger misses too much and doesn’t have the knock out power the lion does)




Of course this is a hard task to Ko a full maned lion simply because the mane is a lot longer, denser and thicker than the bears short fur around the head and neck area, the superior lions mane which offers up more protection against the stunning blows, in this case no animal could go blow for blow with a battle maned lion:



CHAPTER VI. THE LION AND ITS VARIETIES.

Those who have only seen the King of Beasts immured in a cage, after years of harassing and emaciating captivity, and balf paralysed by confinement and want of exercise, can form no conception of his majestic appearance as he bounds along in his own native wilds conscious of his own strength and prowess. There he is indeed a monarch, for, dreaded by all, he has nothing to fear from any living creature, save when by chance some solitary hunter, aided by his death-dealing arms,  wages unequal war against him. I have lived in his domains for months and months together, and have encountered him at all times, and under all circumstances; and the more I have studied his character and his habits, when in a state of nature, the more am I convinced of his right to royal precedence amongst beasts.

His strength is unsurpassed by any animal in creation, not even excepting the tiger, for I have known him to break the spine of an ox with a single blow of his tremendous fore-paw; I have seen him stop a horse in its full career, and throw him back on his haunches; I have witnessed the skull of a living man crushed to pieces as if it were an egg-shell, by a lion already in its death-throes; and at night I have heard a marauder leap over the wall of a^cattle-kraal, seven feet high, taking with him a bullock, which he carried off as easily as a cat would do a mouse. Add to this terrible strength, the fearful gripe of his flesh-rending fangs; his peculiar faculty of being able to see in the dark; the noiselessness with which he is enabled to approach, and the distance from which he can spring upon his prey; and it must be confessed that in the darker hours of night a hunter, however experienced and well-armed he may be, stands but a poor chance against such a formidable antagonist.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ro0VAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA81&dq=king+of+beast+crushing+blow+forepaw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=g1uEU_n5GZLjoASP9YDQCg&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBg



There are only two species of bear in the Park, the black and the grizzly. Of these the black tear is the less timid. At least we never encountered a grizzly upon the road.—to our entire satisfaction,—while we saw many black beai-s. We did see | grizzlies, though, at the "Bear • Feeding Grounds" which are maintained near the big hotel and tourist camp near Old Faithful, and they are an impressive looking beast. While the black bear rarely attains a weight ofmore than 400 pounds, the grizzly when full grown generally weighs around 1.000 pounds. And his strength is in proportion to his size. A few years ago an Englishman who had hunted lions In Africa ventured, upon a visit here, to express the opinion that an African lion could whip a grizzly in fair fight. His' opinion was so warmly disputed by partisans of the grizzly that he determined to settle the matter. He brought a full grown lion to this Park and it was put into a cage'along with a grizzly. The lion at once sprang to the attack leaping upon the bear's' back and trying to dig in with claws and teeth. The grizzly sincerely shook him off. The lion again sprang and was again shaken off. A third time it was shaken off, but this time the lion, annoyed, gave it a swipe with one of its paws, and broke its back killing it with a single blow
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:jq9HzcFXElMJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/1489912/+The+Iola+Register+1933++lion+fights+grizzly&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


At (26 seconds) it shows the raw power of the lions brute strength is already dormant in a young age:
http://www.efootage.com/stock-footage/56979/Young_Lions_Rip_Apart_Dummy/



http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gn1DPbCup2YJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/26121397/+site:newspapers.com+lion+paw+just+a+friendly+tap&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


The London and Paris Observer: Or Chronicle of Literature, Science, and the Fine Arts, Volume 6

The king, of whom I have just narrated so many anecdotes, had a very large lion‘ presented to him by one of the Barbary powers. There were at this time several bears kept by the butchers about the shambles in Stockholm, and his majesty, being anxious to witness a rencontre between one of these animals and the lion, ordered them to be brought into contact with each other. lu the lion's den there were two apartments, into one of which the bear was introduced. On the lion, however, getting access to that animal, he found him posted in a corner; when, going up to him, he gave him a slight rap with his paw, as if to see of what materials his visiter was composed. The bear, not liking this kind of salutation, growled, and endeavoured to parry it. This made the lion angry: when, ‘ with one- fell swoop,‘ with -his paw, as the story goes, he laid the bear dead at his feet.
http://books.google.com/books?id=Io5NAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA195&dq=african+lions+paw+blow+bear&hl=en&sa=X&ei=6zR_U8D1HNDdoATcioFI&ved=0CAYQ6AEwADgU



So the lion has been shown striking dead with one blow of his paw, men, horses, zebras, donkeys, and grizzly bears, the lion has demoralized and shatterd tigers, which was perfected by 10.000 years of evolution of in-fighting with-in prides, perfected by a constant and frequent need for warfare amoungs rivals in the open where battle is enivitable, honed in by his genus and species of panthera leo, the most diverse inter-specific carnivore of the apex predators, withholding more land mass, which would mean they have thousands of years of practice coping and learning from every type of predator there is, dominating the fields with brute strength, sowly evolving into the perfrct fighting machine, ultimate warrior and undisputed in action, looks and honor. Sculpted with every fighting experince earth had to offer and making him reign as the truly earned title of King of the beast in numerous cultures:

(English)


(British)


(Greeco-roman)


(Mugal India)


I’ll take some of Clyde beattys life experinces above, and add to it his mentor, teacher and friends memoirs, who said one of the most truthful and honest things amongs opinions:



"Neither must he lose his footing. The biggest danger in the ring is when the trainer stumbles or falls through the impact of the heavy bodies. "A lioness is more easily managed than a lion, but she is swifter in attack and hence has to be watched more closely. Lion Can Lick Tiger. "A tiger is more easily excited than a lion. Is a lion superior to a tiger In a fight? By all means, in spite of the fact that seme tigers have killed some lions.But match a strong lion against an equally strong tiger and the lion will win. "Why," asked the visitor, "do you mix Hons, tigers, pumas and leopards in a group, when by so doing you add to the difficulty and danger of your task without, any corresponding ap-preciaton from the public?. You get Just as much applause and decrease your peril by more than 50 percent if you had, say ,20 lions or 20 tigers, or 20 of anything of one kind, in a cage:. wentin, snapped your whip, boxed and wrestled with them, and then got out." "Sure, we would cut our danger by something like 75 percent,, since the danger of a serious outbreak among Hons alone, or pumas alone, is comparatively slight. We invite trouble every time we introduce a new animal to a group.". Doesn't Want to Eluff. . "Then why do vou do It?" asked Russell Gore of the Detroit News "Why don't you have, let us say. 20 lions together, go in and make a nig, snappy show with the whip and chair and pistol, and let lt go at that?" Peter Taylor's
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MtHCzwoV-GoJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/59995883/+site:newspapers.com+menagerie+tiger+terrific+fought+lion&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1

Emperor, the Most Unruly Of All Lions. With the possible exception of Denver and Baltimore, two bad lions which I mentioned in a previous story, I believe the most unruly lion I ever attempted to train was a line specimen of forest-bred South African beast named Emperor. Who derived his name through his ability to rule, by brute strength, all animals with which he came in contact I had engaged in several battles with Emperor...
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:guAr6Gj8oq8J:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/55289173/+site:newspapers.com+pete+taylor+lion+tiger+fought&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1

King of the Beast Indeed:


Of course this is why the lion has evolved a mane, to protect him against his own death blow:


Both in the neck region and the belly as well:


Not even a polar bear and or kodiak bears hide is that thick as the lions mane.




That'll do for now.



Edited by Prime - 28-May-2014 at 15:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2014 at 13:20
I think that lion will always kill one or even two tigers at once.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2014 at 04:12
Originally posted by Cat

I think that lion will always kill one or even two tigers at once.


I agree, I its cemented already, with acounts from:

-Bosstweeds
-Dutch
-Emperor
-Duke
-Sultan
-Caesar
-Veronas lion
-Mr Maas lion
-Cooks lion


All showed they can take on multiple apex predators like tigers/leopards and defeat/kill them single handedly, I dont think it just stops there, it could be more common than most people think. Already those are the best feats, such as lions killing 1,000 lb tigers, 3 tigers at once, defeating numerous tigers at once, breaking grizzly bears and tigers backs with shere strength, topped in with a much more durable anatomy. Tiger fans say the lions mane has been debunked, yet I still await to see just 10 occaisons where a lion with a mane like this:





Its not so much that the tiger is a poor fighter, its more of means that he doesnt have a protecting factor, yet he exposes his neck more than any other carnivore, he stands straight up (In a vertical stance) which exploits his throat:




Or rolls over on his back as Bert nelson states numerous times, in order to allow all four limbs to be used:




The tigers extremely fast swiping combos, have no use other than superficial wounds, they never are intended to knock out, break bones and or kill like the lions much stronger more accurate blows. They will only temporarily keep an attacker away, the accounts of tigers against tigers, leopards and bears are already in there own domain forthtelling:



Today we found T-36 with a broken neck and severly brusied body.
www.saveourtigers.com/pdf/tiger_article_Telegraph159.pdf


Tiger found dead in R’bhore forest area
A tiger was found dead in the Ranthambore National Park on Sunday. The forest guards found the carcass of a big cat while a routine patrolling in the Goth Bihari area. Officials suspect the animal could have been killed in a territorial fight, however, till late, the sex of the dead feline could not be established. After the body was found around 8 am, the department officials rushed to the spot under Khandar Forest range. Upon reaching the spot, the officials found a partly eaten carcass of the tiger. The officials suspect the tiger could have been killed in a territorial fight with another tiger. “There are canine marks on tiger’s neck.Also there were pug marks of another tiger in the vicinity suggesting a territorial fight,” said Sawai Madhopur collector Giriraj Singh Kushwaha.
http://dnasyndication.com/showarticlerss.aspx?nid=rAg7332WGv5Y7voUddBod5W0kF6BjmFvQTVr2bQ4Z3Y=


carcass of a male tiger, suspected to have been killed by another feline in a territorial clash, has been found in a forest area of Uttar Pradesh's Pilibhit district, an official said Friday.

The carcass with multiple injuries on the neck was found late Thursday evening from the Mala range of Pilibhit forest reserve.

"Prima-facie it appears that the tiger, aged around three years, died in a territorial clash with another tiger," Divisional Forest Officer V.K. Singh told reporters in Pilibhit
http://news.webindia123.com/news/articles/India/20101112/1628868.html


"Badly mutilated carcass suggested that the tiger died some time back, at least 24 hours ago, and the reason for the death could not be ascertained as maggots had eaten up its major body-parts, said district forest officer Y K Sahu. Also the animal's sex couldn't be known in the absence of the rear portion of the body.

The death could be the result of a fight with some other big cat as certain canine marks were found on the neck resulting in penetrating wounds, said Dr Rajiv Garg who performed the post mortem
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/tiger-carcass-ranthambhore-national-park-authorities-mismanagement/1/239319.html


MYSORE: A male tiger, aged about six years, was found killed in a territorial fight, near Gadde Haadi of Nagarahole National Park in the district on Sunday.
The incident came to light when the forest personnel were on patrol on Saturday at 4 pm. According to them, the age of the deceased tiger is about six years. One eye of the deceased tiger had come out, supposedly due to the strong attack on its face by the other tiger.
Marks of deep paws and claws were found on the neck of the deceased tiger.
Since the nails and pelt were not removed from the carcass, it could be assumed that the tiger was killed in the territorial fight, not in any other fashion, said a Forest official.
Meanwhile, Principle Chief Conservator of Forest B K Singh (Wild Life), Project Tiger Director B J Hosamath, DCF Vijay Ranjan Singh, ACF Belliappa and others were visited the spot on Sunday.
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/tiger-killed-in-fight/253413-60.html


Two tigresses, including an eight-year-old, died in Madhya Pradesh in separate incidents, officials said.
In the first incident, the carcass of an eight-year-old tigress, 'Kankati', was found on Wednesday in the overflowing Charanganga canal in Tala range of Bandhavgarh Tiger Reserve in Umaria district, said CH Murlikrishnan, director of the tiger reserve.
The carnivore was suspected to have been killed in a territorial fight with tigers as deep injury marks were found on its neck and back, he said.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/madhyapradesh/two-tigresses-die-in-madhya-pradesh-s-wildlife-reserves/article1-1249259.aspx


(Tigress kills much bigger male tiger)

They stood up and tore and clawed, the tiger appearing much bigger than the tigress. Now he had her by the shoulder, now he was fastened on to his throat, but they did not seem to held- In another instant the tiger had the tigress on ber back, and his head appeared burled In her body.She was clawing him fearfully down the flanks with both bind legs, while she truck and tore at hi shoulders and sides with her fore one. , A moment they remained like this. Then they broke away and flew at each other again. The tigress appeared to me much the more active of the two. s she was evidently the stronger. She bit and tore again and again, charging the tiger with all the fury of madness every time they seemed for an instant to be relieved from each other' clutches. I could plainly see that the fight was a la mort, and the tigress too much for her older and less active mate. Again they separated, and then, with a charge which see me 4 to me to carry all the wfld deviltry of which her frantically savage nature was capable, ber jaw wide open and grinning, the angles of her mouth drawn back, the, tigress hurled herself upon her companion, and. seizing him by the throat, left him dead, stretched upon the crimson sand. The tigress knew he was dead. She evidently knew, too, that she would soon be dead herself, for. she was mauled beyond recognition. . As she sat there unsteadily upon tier haunches, rooted
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7zCQRbFCVQQJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/33384513/+site:newspapers.com+two+tigers+fought+dead+throat&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


The tigers faster speeds in agility and dexterity, larger canines, superior bite and supposed 2 paw method dident help the tiger hear:



http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/imageserver/imageserver.pl?oid=NZH19091204.2.84.27&area=4&width=422&color=32&ext=gif&key=
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZH19091204.2.84.27


The tigers larger size in height, length, weight, superior strength, muscle mass, bigger biceps, densar bones didn't help him here:



Scene at Wallace's Winter Quarters Outrivals Description Menagerie is In an Uproar. Special to News - Democrat Peru, Ind., Feb. 6. A battle to the death, amid the roaring of lions, tigers, jaguars, hyenas and bears, occurred in the rehearing area at one Hagenbeck - Wallace circus winter quarters a few days ago. The combatants were a big Bengal tiger and a young leopard, and the latter still lives, having clawed out the vitals of the larger beast. The conflict lasted fully thirty minutes and was witnessed by thirty men, all of whom were powerless to separate the combatants. The big tiger was the one seen In Hagenbeck's show at the St. Louis exposition and had always been hard to control. The tiger was valued at $1,000. Yesterday, for the first time this winter, the trainer, Philip Casting, attempted a rehearsal. All the animals used In the big act were brought into the arena and all seemed as tame as pets except the tiger. Immediately on reaching the arena the big brute became vicious and attempted to strike the trainer, who forced the animal Into a corner. Casting then went ahead with the rehearsal. As soon as his back was turned the tiger struck the leopard, which sat on a box near by. The smaller animals struck back and then the battle began. Twice the leopard fastened Its teeth In the tiger's neck and was thrown off. Anticipating a fierce struggle, Casting hurried the other animals out of the arena and then gave his attention to the fighting beasts. The tiger sprang at him and he was forced to quit the arena in order to escape with his life. The leopard tried to get away but was not quick enough. The tiger tossed the leopard In the air a couple of times and beat the smaller animal with Its large paws overthe head almost to Insensibility but finally the, smaller animal got its second wind and fought both ferociousness that was remarkable. While being held down the leopard clawed the tiger's breast until there were great wide gashes in the big ani mal, which soon began to weaken. Continuing its clawing, the leopard, finished its enemy by tearing out the tiger's vital organs. Then the leopard, torn and bleeding, fell exhausted beside the dead body of its adversary. The trainer and other attaches of the circus say the growls and howls and howls of the other animals during the battle were terrific and the excitement was intense.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tZ-IUGahK1cJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/39485439/+wallace+leopard+tiger+death+fight+site:newspapers.com&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


But quick as the Bengal tiger had been, the panther was quicker. All thought of Jealousy vanished at Eight of the attack on his mistress. Before the tiger coulduse tooth or claw the lithe, strong-limbed panther had launched himself right at the tiger's throat. Over and over on the floor of the cage the two great cats rolled. Ordinarily the panther ?would have been no match for the far larger tiger. But the panther had caught his grip first, settling his sharp, deep-biting teeth in the tiger's throat. This prevented the tiger's using his teeth effectually. But his claws, especially those on his strong hind legs, could be used. Again and again he struck out with them, ripping through the panther's skin like a soft glove. But he could not shake the deadly grip Chita had on his throat. Although he might be torn to pieces by the great claws. Chita meant to hold on until he felt his teeth meet in his opponent's windpipe. And through all the terrible struggle. Diogenes, the Numldlan lion, sat on his pedestal, lazy, goodnatured, only calmly Interested in the life and death fight of his fierce fellow pupils. "When the circus men separated the two big cats the Bengal tiger was dead, and the black panther, torn In twenty pieces, was dying. Carmen was unhurt, except for a few slight bruises caused by her fall on the floor of the cage.

~The San Francisco Call 3 July 1904 › Page 12
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:QACJxgKTyucJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/46552793/+site:newspapers.com+lion+bengal+tiger+enclosure+fought&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


(Herman Boger of Hagenbeck had a leopard named Puss, who was attacked by a massive male bengal tiger, in return the leopard ripped out his throat)

As I increased my group by bringing in new animals, of course, there were troubles. The creatures would fight, at times, and I had to make peace with the whip and the pistol. I have never used any red hot irons and don't approve of them. Sometimes a beast was killed. One of my very best performers is a leopard that has killed a cheetah, two boarhounds, a tiger and a polar bear,
http://books.google.com/books?id=-i4PAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA2554&dq=for+I+have+seen+a+small+leopard+kill+a+large+tiger,+a+lion+kill+a+polar+bear.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DiqRU67xMI74oASHnoLgCQ&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA


So all the facts that tigers are suppose to be the superior because of those still dont add up against the lions more fighting experince, harder striker, can kill the tiger in more ways via crush the tigers skull (Velar) Dessembowl (King Edward vs Dan) use his unity (Frankfurt zoo) killing by an overwhelming of wounds (Leo vs Vikram) break the tigers back with pure strength and blunt force (Detroit vs Alice) and finally the easeist way, ripping out the tigers throat, which the tiger practically gives up by his verticle stance and his back-fighting tactics.

I think its also a bad Idea that they relocate some of the lions to MP:


They should think of the welfare of some of there tigers that migrate there:



The tigers would without a dought be killed off, they should atleast make boundires and fence them off like J.V did in londolozi. The records still stands, no well maned lion has ever been killed, by any animal.


More info will be brought in later. Hope that helps for now, laters.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2014 at 04:18
I guess the editing doesnt work again...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2014 at 17:43
PRIME you are the best! Thanks to you for all your posts. The all tiger fans in yuku are liars.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2014 at 21:09
Originally posted by LionKing

PRIME you are the best! Thanks to you for all your posts. The all tiger fans in yuku are liars.


Yuku started off okay, but Jackjacksonj ruined it for all the tiger/lion fans there, he hounds the carnivora forum now as Nothing00, Noronu, Tiger, Renekton and tons of other aliases, I'm guessing because no one there likes him, so he has mental break downs and needs alternative names to take the heat off him lol. Peter was okay, Apollyon, Prathap ect were all okay. P tigris and retard Kingoffrauds who had a thousand aliases are beyound liars, but thats there problem, they can't hide the truth. Were you one of the nutruel members there? Dont forget, I only am interested in the historical artifacts, accounts and expert opinions, the historic locations and such come from jeninfordragon, the beatty scans, some weights and biologist/ecologist comes from Boldchamp, Lioness08 did alot of anatomy discovering, Leofwin and schama helped alot with the videos thats on youtube, and its science, so did Battle cat, who was known as Dalen/starfox on yuku who now has some good leads with experts Bale and more on Bert nelson.


Beatty still stands above all the experts, scientist, trainers...what ever, his back ground is legendary, no single expert of even the 20th century has as much as credability as he does, off the top of my head, Beatty has witnessed more fights than any one, like:

-Boss tweeds kill 3 tigers at once
-Prince killed 3 tigers Slieka the 2nd, Rosie and sheba
-Detroit kill 3 tigers Alice, sleika and Empress
-Caesar kill 3 tigers Bobby and two other at a performance
-Nairobi vs Brutus
-Rouge vs 3 lions
-Chester vs numerous lions
-Rex vs a lion
-Puna being killed by a lion
-Princess being injured by a lion
-Duke and his mate killing two tigers
-Sammy killing a lioness
-His bouncing lioness killed by 3 tigers
-Soudan vs Prince and his brother
-Henry and tarzan killing Toona
-Sammy vs 4 lions
-Nellie vs Samson
-Sultan killing Tommy
-Gengis vs Rajah
-Lil vs Bill
-Doris vs Prince
-Brutus vs Buddy
-Caesar the 4th vs Brutus the 5th
-Prince vs Trudi
-Louie vs 2 tigers
-Nero killing trudi
-Memphis killing sehka
-Maam vs another tigress
-Nero vs Sultan
-Duke whipping numerous tigers at once
-Sultan the first whipping numerous tigers at once


I mean who has seen that much fights? Thats only about 1/10th the amount of info we have on him, Beatty gave his consistant opinion that the lion takes it at a 9/10, he has 3 books, and 2 magazines, has hundreds of photos of him working upto 43 tigers/lions simultaneously as the word record holder in guiness books, has about 8 lion/tiger films that show quarrels and fights, has worked with more than a few sub-species, stated he lost about 50 tigers killed by lions, so far only his bouncie lioness was accounted killed by a tiger, no males, he also saved most of his tigers by whips, poles, ammonia, and water hoses, if not...he would have lost a lot more tigers, at the moment it seems no single expert can hold a candle to him. More info on him will come, thats for sure.


Heres an extension of the strength/method of lions/tigers paw blows:


THE KING OF BEASTS.

THE Lion has been always regarded as the King of Beasts. But few can withstand him at any time, and in the darkness of the night, when he loves to prowl abroad, his powerful voice alone, resounding over the plain, or awakening the echoes of the forest, sends the whole animal kingdom fleeing before him in terror When he is engaged in feasting on the body of some creature that has been killed by a blow of his massive paw, none will dare to intrude upon his majesty, but all wait patiently until he has satisfied his appetite, and then humbly content themselves with what he may leave uneaten. It is thus he rules over the various quadrupeds that dwell in the same districts with himself, meeting with but few that do not acknowledge his authority.

His lacerated hide, gashed in many places, bore evidence of the dreadful power of the claws of the ferocious beasts that had assailed him, and nothing less than his own prodigious strength could have possibly enabled him to survive such an encounter. The same observer states that he once saw a Lion attack a Buffalo bull with a more successful result, so far as the King of Beasts was concerned. The Lion sprang upon the bull from behind, and, getting upon his back, with one blow of his paw dealt upon the neck brought the animal to the ground, where he was soon dispatched.
http://books.google.com/books?id=2-FEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA98&dq=blow+paw+king+of+beast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=U_3FU-OBG8njoATkooGwAg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA


He will pursue his prey, however, with skill, and exhibit great powers of endurance; and will prowl about in a very stealthy manner in search of unwary animals. The L. frequently fells its prey by a blow from the paw, and springs upon the flank or shoulders in another mode of attack—the tiger appearing to prefer the neck of its prey.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qkCwPOyRWTgC&pg=PA111&dq=mane++blow+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qwXGU_T8BNHroASSz4KIAw&ved=0CBYQ6AEwCDgy


The lion also kills his game mostly by a stroke of his paw, and his teeth come into play afterwards, so that in this respect the hunting and warlike proceedings of the lion
http://books.google.com/books?id=nldOAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA720&dq=tiger+lion+paw+blow+superior&hl=en&sa=X&ei=TxDHU97qM4n9oASAioLYAg&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAjg8


Here is " a wrinkle" about the tiger's method of killing his prey

The popular notion was, and probably still is, that the tiger springs upon its victim from a distance, and either kills the animal by one blow of its paw, or tears the throat with its teeth and sucks the blood. All this is certainly incorrect,
http://books.google.com/books?id=WsOgAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PR11&dq=mane++blow+paw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mwbGU-CyN4PuoASqkYLwAg&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAzg8


The strength of the lion is very great, a single stroke of his paw being sufficient to destroy most animals; and the bone of his fore-leg is remarkably fitted to sustain the great muscular strain so powerful an exertion occasions. Its texture is so compact that it will strike fire with steel.When enraged, the cry of the lion is louder and more appalling than his roar; and when he summons all his strength, nothing can be more terrible. His stature is not overgrown, nor his shape clumsy. He is compact, well proportioned, and sizable—a perfect model of strength, joined with agility." It is sufficient only to see him, in order to be assured of his superiority.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9qQaAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA69&dq=lions+forepaw+strength+strong+bones&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KK3FU9ryDYTtigKC-4CADA&ved=0CBgQ6AEwCTg8



The habits of the lion are interesting. They associate in couples, display great attachment for each other, and with the greatest care rear and protect their young. The male lion, in defense of his family, will, with the coolest indifference, face a thousand men. The magnanimity of his disposition is proverbial, and no anecdotes are better authenticated than those of his sparing his human foes at the very moment of victory. It is quite common in Southern Africa to meet with natives who have been wounded by lions, and who have escaped death solely by the mercy of the beast. A boer, in attempting to mount his horse, was thrown to the ground by a lion. The animal merely stood over him, lashed his tail, and growled at the man’s friends, who were at a safe distance, and then slowly and dignificdly commenced a retreat.

The strength of the lion is almost fabulous: he has been known to leap a wide ditch with perfect ease while holding a full-grown heifer between his teeth, and there is nothing living that can receive with impunity a blow of one of his paws. He instantly tears down the buffalo and giraffe, and will make equal battle with the rhinoceros and elephant. In fact, so tremendous, and so compact, is the dread machinery with which nature has provided him, that he overcomes almost every beast of the forest, however superior in Weight or stature.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0K86AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA744&dq=lion+rhino+paw+blow&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XJfFU_GGKMGhogTVkIDYDA&ved=0CBYQ6AEwCDge



The animals of that country are very curious. The lion is frequently seen here; his shin-bones, it is said, after they are dried, are as hard and solid as a flint, and are used in the same manner to strike fire with. When he falls upon a man or beast, he first knocks them down with his paw and deprives his prey of all sensation, before ever he touches it with his teeth, roaring most terribly at the time he gives the mortal blow.
http://books.google.com/books?id=nUQLAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA3-PA106&dq=lion+rhino+paw+blow+knocked+down&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3ZXFU678AYvaoATJl4GwBA&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBA

In an attack, the lion tries to knock its victim to the ground with a stroke of its paw — as all trainers and guides well know. It does not use its mouth to kill the victim once the latter is on the ground, but rather depends on a blow with its shoulder A lion will do battle with another animal, such as a rhinoceros or another lion, only if there is no way in which to avoid such an encounter
http://www.google.com/search?q=%2C+the+lion+tries+to+knock+its+victim+to+the+ground+with+a+stroke+of+its+paw+%97++A+lion+will+do+battle+with+another+animal%2C+such+as+a+rhinoceros+or+another+lion%2C+only+if+there+is+no+way+in+which+to+avoid+such+an+encounter&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=QZTFU6zNFMX3oATks4HoCg&sa=N


Some Lions have learned their technique so well that they can dislocate the neck of a victim with one blow of the paw and wait for it to fall.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Some+Lions+have+learned+their+technique+so+well+that+they+can+dislocate+the+neck+of+a+victim+with+one+blow+of+the+paw+and+wait+for+it+to+fall.&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=eTrEU8PKGovioASkgIHgCQ&sa=N


The enormous forearm of the tiger has often attracted attention. We have seen a cat pat a dead mouse, or the face of a dog which was teazing her, and it is easy to understand what a tremendous blow a tiger could give in the same nanner; but I believe it to be a mistake to suppose that he strikes down his prey with his paw. He strikes in self-defence and when fighting, tat not when seizing his victim.
http://books.google.com/books?id=TnQHAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA345&dq=tiger+does+not+possess+strength+paw+strikes+seized&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZnrDU5acBNbhoASezYDICg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA



A Rehash of all the animals the lion has broken the backs of:


(Tigers)




(Zebras)

Klein witnessed a kill in which a single blow from the powerful right paw of a lion broke the neck of a zebra and it dropped instantly
[ur]http://www.google.com/search?q=Klein+witnessed+a+kill+in+which+n+single+blow+from+the+powerful+right+paw+of+a+lion+broke+the+neck+of+a+zebra+and+it+dropped+instantly&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=iUbEU-TrI9PeoAStwYDoAw&sa=N[/url]


(Lions)

Lion Breaks Back Of His Partner . ROME, May 12 A jealous circus lion

broke his rival's back with one swipe of his paw during a performance yesterday. Several hundred persons, including many children were witnesses to the killing.

The lions, Tarzan and Tobruk, had been performing separately in the Togni Circus since they fought last week over a lioness called Zara Tobruk got the worst of the fight. Yesterday, as Tarzan was forming, Tobruk managed to sneak into the cage. They snarled a few comments at each other and then tobruk struck tarzan down.

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.google.com++Lion+Breaks+Back+Of+His+Partner+.+ROME%2C+May+12+Ml%97+A+jealous+circus+lion+broke+his+rival%27s+back+with+one+swipe+of+his+paw+during+a+performance+yesterday.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=pw


(Hyenas)


One of the hyenas, engrossed in the feast and slower to retreat than his fellows, was killed by a single blow from a lion's paw
http://www.google.com/search?q=One+of+the+hyenas%2C+engrossed+in+the+feast+and+slower+to+retreat+than+his+fellows%2C+was+killed+by+a+single+blow+from+a+lion%27s+paw+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=U0HEU7_mJ4K6oQSd74LYBw&sa=N


Lions have been known to kill medium sized animals (200-800lbs) via bullocks, oxen and horses quite commonly of animals mostly with the use of his paws, two records of large brown bears as well, much larger animals he wrestles them towards the throat grab, the tiger is never seen using his paws for devastating blows, they are back-fighters and bipedal fighters (two positions no power can be accumilated or exzerted), as stated numerous times by Bert nelson, these two methods of attack exposes his throat way too much. And the ones Counter-strike added in by Nelson and Bale:






Sorry I dont have too much time to share with convo's, just stopped in because of the heavy rain here, but when I come back, I should have a much larger data base, Counter strike has been emailing alot of experts and such of sanctuarys, if you'd like to pitch in, you could consult him about a good direction, we only have some info of each expert and account, later I'll try and get more of its bio. Thanks for the post, see you laters.

Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 14-Aug-2014 at 07:17
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Aug-2014 at 01:30
I wait for your new posts Prime.Thumbs Up
I'm just an observer in the forums to find about the truth between these powerful animals and to know who is the most powerful among them.

Im turkish and we have a saying in turkish "even if a lion is wounded, he is still a lion"..something like that so I do not know how to do that properly translated.

Go on with your posts.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Aug-2014 at 21:11
Originally posted by LionKing

I wait for your new posts Prime.Thumbs Up <span id="result_" ="" lang="en"><span ="hps">I</span><span ="">'m just an</span> <span ="hps">observer</span> <span ="hps">in</span> <span ="hps">the</span> <span ="hps">forums</span> <span ="hps">to find about the</span> <span ="hps">truth</span> <span ="hps">between these</span> <span ="hps">powerful</span> <span ="hps">animals</span> <span ="hps">and</span> <span ="hps">to know</span> <span ="hps">who is the</span> <span ="hps">most powerful</span> <span ="hps">among them</span></span>.Im turkish and we have a saying in turkish "<span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps">even if</span> <span ="hps">a</span> <span ="hps">lion</span> <span ="hps">is</span> <span ="hps">wounded</span><span ="">, he</span> <span ="hps">is</span> <span ="hps">still</span> <span ="hps">a</span> <span ="hps">lion</span></span>"..<span id="result_" ="" lang="en"><span ="hps">something like that</span> <span ="hps">so</span> <span ="hps">I</span> <span ="hps">do not know</span> <span ="hps">how to do that</span> <span ="hps">properly</span> <span ="hps">translated.</span></span><span id="result_" ="short_text" lang="en"><span ="hps">Go on</span> <span ="hps">with your</span> <span ="hps">posts.</span></span>



Thanks bro, I'm trying to find out the truth as well. ^_^ Heres some interesting thinsg and extensions of the last post.


Bigcat82 aka Renekton, as we all know made jackjacksonj, tigervslionblog, angel fire and self edited the smithsonian magazine:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/tiger-vs-lionwho-would-win-83275452/


With same old shalaunts, same info he has on all his sites, well I found another quota from Blackburne, and with further reading, I didn't take notcie what zoo he was from, I just saw national park and didn't read fully, no wonder counter strike was telling me a little while ago that Black burne was one of the most important quotas, why? Because he was the head keepr of...Drum roll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itAOGRiYRLI



The Smithsonian:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Zoological_Park_(United_States)


(William H. Blackburne)


http://siarchives.si.edu/collections/siris_sic_6414




Mr blackburne is firm his his belief that the lion is the true King of beasts and can whip anything that walks Ing contrasts but none more amazing than the golf yawning between the majesty luiU ferocious than is ihe one that lies quietly in a tiger, but it was ali part of the days To this generation the name of Jumbo has become something Icgcn- dery Much of Blackburnc's time a.i t trainer of wild animals has been de- voted to the he Hvers, he likes the lion "Lions are more easily trained and straightforward than he asserts "A lion Is either i good or bad.
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anewspaperarchive.com+Mr.+Blackburne+Is+firm+In+his+belief+that+the+lion+is+the+true+%22King+of+Beasts%22+and+san&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&source=hp&gbv=1


(Photo of blackburne)
http://books.google.com/books?id=FBwfHkf6OM8C&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=William+H.+Blackburne+circus&source=bl&ots=5X8Xrl2Mti&sig=pt2p23X3ibXQkDwOlA9j5jevtrM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QuGfUr6tG8TaoATxsIGwDA&ved=0CBkQ6AEwBg


BlackBurne says:

“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.” The lion. In my opinion, can whip anything that walks. "Moukeys are the smartest of all animala; pouch animals are stupidest I taught a kangaroo the use of .boxing gloves, but I never could break him of trying to kick me In the stomach er neck with his hind foot. Monkeys of the pouch variety ire Just aa active and mlschlev-Icus. however, as are the other members of theirtribe. ' Tha Monkey That Showed Off

~ The Cincinnati Enquirer from Cincinnati, Ohio · Page 551915
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PIko7ozjTMAJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/34255053/+site:newspapers.com++was+renewed,+the+lion+knocking+the+tiger+down+five+times&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


Consider bigcat82 aka the guy with a 1,000 aliases exposed, again. Its stated by him that its popular belief that in asia, all the historic records says the tiger is the usual winner, I yet to see anything that supports this claim, all the artifacts from china and japan says other wise:





ARTIFACTS








The question was raised several pages back, why do some artifacts portray the lion larger than the tiger, It is quite clear by Biologist and Ecologist that lions are the bigger animal on average, well known Tiger Expert Mel & Fiona Sunquist says Andrew Kitchner stated lions are bigger than tigers:


SIZE COMPARIOSON


(Biologist)




http://www.nms.ac.uk/about-us/collections-departments/natural-sciences/vertebrate-biology/


(Hunter)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspar_Whitney

There is also much exaggeration concerning size and weight. A tiger that measures ten feet from the tip of its nose to the end of its tail is a big one, and above the average, which is about nine and a half feet. Of course there are exceptions, as in all animal kind, but the majority of eleven and twelve foot tiger stories are fiction. I was unable during six months' hunting to find definite account of one even eleven feet in length. I did hear of several ranging from ten feet to ten feet six inches, and one of ten feet eight inches. So also with the weight, which is commonly written down at from 4oo to 5oo pounds, whereas the average will run from 3oo to 375 pounds, the latter being a good one and the former figure more near the average.
http://books.google.com/books?dq=the+tiger+does+not+crushing+blow+paw&jtp=63&id=VCAuAAAAYAAJ&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html_text


Tiger enthusiest always dis-claims any comparison where the lion seems larger, they will deny and say the tiger is a female, a sumatran, a malnorished tiger and or not fully grown, according to John smith and Arjan singh, the asiatic lion (smallest wild leo subs-pecies) is taller at the shoulder than the bengal tiger (largest wild tigris sub-species), the lion also has a mane that makes him appear much larger than he really is. A 500 lb lion will still be larger in size compared to a 800 lb tiger, although similar they're physiologys are constructed differently, the tiger longer and the lion taller, the lion is even taller than the saber tooth cat who can reach a upper limit of 1,200 lbs:



The lion not only is taller at the shoulder, his mane makes him appear much larger than he already is, thats why in almost every photo evidence the lion will always be the bigger of the two in size:

(Examples)













There are very few cases that the lion has lost to the tiger, majority of them were females, as recently covered Alipore zoo, the lioness was sleeping John vartys lioness Savannah was sedated by a tranq gun, this lioness Sultana too had elements of losing unfairly:

Leonida a tiger that attacked the trainer, this weekend the Fame young tiger that killed old lioness Friday. Roger took lion." advantage of the confusion and attacked Sultana while she was off guard. Before Casartelli could intervene the tiger had ripped open the lioness' throat and stomach.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nrwgguhvQMUJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/23565951/+site:newspapers.com++tiger+ripped+open+stomach&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


There arnt any cases of a tiger winning a fairly fought fight, as they are not fighters, the three lionesses attacked by male tigers extends the notion they prefer to ambush than fight a fair fight.


FIGHTING METHODS


As just shown, the tiger goes for the throat with his jaws and disembowels with his hind legs, this is the prefered tactics the tiger uses while Bi-pedal, or rolling on his back, hunters such as Samuel W. Baker and Sanderson both state the tiger grips and grapples his fore-paw clouting poseses no great strength, its confirmed in accounts that detail this:


The tigers locked up, to rapidly slash away face, throats an hind-legs to disembowl
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NEM18851106.2.21


Going back to Bert nelson, this tactics doesnt work on specific lions:


The speaker said that the lion is truly the king of beasts. While tigers and lions do not fight in their native jungles because one inhabits Africa and the other India, "even an old and feeble lion will lick any tiger ever born." He said the tiger is a "back fighter." It rolls over on its back, tries to plant ts fangs in its enemy's throat while disembowelling it with its hind legs. The mane of a lion, which surrounds its neck and extends down its belly, protects the lion from such attacks, he explained.

~The Kokomo Tribune 26 December 1934 › Page 2
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:fz9l1-R65QgJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/41789275/+.+The+mane+of+a+lion,+which+surrounds+its+neck+and+extends+down+its+belly,+protects+the+lion+from+such+attacks,+he+explained.+The+Kokomo+Tribune+26+December+1934+%E2%80%BA+Page+2&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


More specifically belly maned lions, Charles jamrachs appearntly lacked one, as Charles darwin stated his head mane protected him against the tigers assult, that tactics the tiger relys on would fail against these type of lions:




Most argue the lions mane is just hair and dispute its protecting factor entirely even with the lack of evidence (no large maned lion has ever been recorded killed by a tiger with a throat grab), the lions mane is already cemented in numerous fights where it is mentioned and even seen, via (Big cage fight, Gir fight, Bobby vs Caesar fight, Dan vs King Edward ect) which is tangible proof. No one is claiming the lions mane is bullet proof, but there is more science to his mane that people overlook, one of them being Tensile strength:

Regular rope, is basically small strands of string that intwine and is brade'd to increase its Tensile/Durability and overall density to withstand pressure/friction, this makes it dense to where a small skinny rope can hold a ship in place that weighs over one hundred thousand tons:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rope

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_tensile_strength

Hair is made out of protein. Proteins, by and large, are great at tension and awful at compression. For tensile strength, yes, hair is stronger than steel.
http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=1693


Some lions have hair that intwines making it denser, you need to have relatively long hair for that to happen, grizzly bears, siberian tigers ect don't have the length of hair to have it intwine like the lions mane, the lion has the longest hair amoungs carnivorans softening blows and protecting against superfical bites and lacerations. A tiny amount of fury flesh an meat has incredibly low durability and a easy tensile (rips/tears easily) breaking/ripping points, string/hair has super-strength, it can be easily tested.


1.) Gather a 3 pound of meat, and 3 pounds of bunched up hair, and gather a rubber noodle that resembles the veins an arteries and place one tube under each.

2.) With a large heavy and sharp butcher knife chop into the meat, than chop into the hair to sever the tube.


The knife will go right through the meat like butter and sever the tube as well in one or two chops, you wont be able to get through the 3 pounds of hair in even a several chops, you can whale as much times as you like in chopping motions, the tube/noodle/ that resembles the vien/artery will be uncut, ergo the mane is highly durable, while the tiger without this anatomy is highly vulnerable.

(Lions mane)



Well maned lions are never killed by throat grabs or lacerations the same with bely maned lions via diswmeboweling. Its usually by powerful blows to the head or spine, the tiger doesn't have this type of paw strength as showed above the lion hits much harder of the two and is known in most science books to posses the most powerful striking force amoungs carnivorians, the only other way to kill a mane'd lion is by overwhelming him completely, and that usually takes a 2, 3, 4+ scenario to do:




The Pride life of the lion makes him more mentally wired as a fighter, its evident in 9/10 times as Beatty stated and still lingers in existing zoologist such as Dave salmoni, the lion is the aggressor, and the tiger will try and avoid him unless he has to fight, this could trigger a prey based instinct, with the tiger always fleaing, the lion in some cases will fully persue and kill him before the tiger even knows he was playing with death, its evident in majority of the accounts and see-able in movies like Roar, that the tiger fleas more often:
https://www.google.com/search?q=roar+the+movie+youtube+&hl=en&gbv=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw&btnG=Search

There multiple scenes in that movie where the lion yet again is the aggressor and the tiger is the one who fleas, some have made the insinuations that they were small, female sumatrans, well, one thing is for sure, It states Tippi hedren had siberian tigers in the movie:




Its much harder to kill a lion than a tiger, all the accounts shows the tiger died relatively fast, (alidale zoo only took 90 seconds for felis tigris to be killed) by disemboweling or throat grabs, lions can take huge amounts of punishments before they go down, disembowling and throat grabbing a belly maned male lion is next to impossible to do when hes raining knock out bombs your way, the tiger as legendendary animal trainers Beatty and Nelson said, the tiger just can't go the distance, its not so much the lions greater stamina, its his greater durability he gets from his mane and gameness (Physicological toughness) he gains from frequent fights of in-fighting with his brothers, fathers, uncles, sons and grandpas, that the tiger is completely without this extracurricular experince, even if the lion is more tired, his gameness won't allow him to quit, the tiger can a-quit even if hes not tired and just not satisfied with how the fight is going (lions can risk being nursed back to health via prides, injurys will spell starvation for a tiger,). Other than that, a attacking tiger will aquit as soon as he relaizes he cannot kill the lion as quickly as he usually dispatches his un-protected neck/belly foes:


Martin Johnson and Pete taylors incident:

This tunnel was some three feet have set the lions going. The tigers naturally jumped in. I heard tho howl as I was approaching the stage with my friend, the polar bear. As we got nearer a lion and a tiger, started fighting and tearing each other in a life-and-death struggle, backed up upon us. "The bear reared, but was almost as wide as the passageway, and so did not have room to do more than to strike out savagely with his forepaws. The contestants were so interested in each other that they paid little attention to him, aside from keeping out of reach. . "Then the tiger saw he was getting the worst of It and, to escape the lion, he leaped over the bear.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xF39vCuhj8IJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/59861093/+site:newspapers.com+bear+fought+to+death+kodiak+tiger&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



I hope this helps you out a bit. Laters




Edited by TheAlaniDragonRising - 14-Aug-2014 at 07:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2014 at 00:32
Dam, I forgot this site even if you press preview it just sends it in, alot of mistakes an some links didnt go through, and still can't edit...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2014 at 06:04
Then send your complaints here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=3

While your long time interest, in this venue, is commendable; you continue to use a restricted color-red-in your posts. This is well known and identified in the CoC.

Cease and desist immediately or I will recommend to the administrator you should be suspended.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Aug-2014 at 15:11
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Then send your complaints here: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=3

While your long time interest, in this venue, is commendable; you continue to use a restricted color-red-in your posts. This is well known and identified in the CoC.

Cease and desist immediately or I will recommend to the administrator you should be suspended.

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I already notified redclay before you even posted to remove it so I could make corrections, I've also showed this thread to Red clay several times, he never mentioned anything about the red color and this isnt the first time the edit button doesnt work Clay said it even happens to him seomtimes. Don't see why it would matter....suspended for what? If you wanna ban'd me then ban me, I dont see a single shred of evidence you have other than being a bias mod.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2014 at 04:23
Heres an extension of there size and the tigers/lions vulnerability/durability:


HEIGHT OF SHOULDERS AND HEAD



the lion is 4 feet tall maybe taller at the shoulder
http://books.google.com/books?id=5pbQiXfa530C&pg=PA153&dq=the+lion+stands+tallest+shoulder&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ynjyU57LGo66oQS08IDgAw&ved=0CBAQ6AEwBQ

Lions stand about 4 feet
www.worldanimalfoundation.net/f/Lion.pdf

lions stand about 4 feet tall
http://globalsojourns.com/imagedump/Web_Articles/Articles_All_Africa/African_Lion.pdf

Tigers range from 2.5 –3.5 feet tall
www.rollinghillswildlife.com/animals/t/tiger/tiger_general.pdf

Siberians stand 3 and a half feet tall at the shoulder
~Species Fact Sheets.pdf - OETManhattan

Bengals stand 3.5 feet at the shoulder:
~ The Endangered Mammals of Tibet

(The primary killing method for tigers is a bite to the un-protected throat)



EXPERTS OPINIONS

(Zoologist: Professor Eric Kessler)



"Just about all of the leading zoologists today, seem to agree that the Tom lion will win out in a fight with a Tiger but the lion definitely does not have a harder life in all areas.

Most people just assume that the slightly larger tiger, complete with mean looking stripes, would win a fight with the lion but during the intense conservation research into bigcats (from about 1980) some major changes to this idea were made. Lions are very clever fighters. The entire assault is planned out. The key is limiting energy and allowing for it. Elements of trickery and sudden turns of savagery are all Lion tom attributes. Recent surveys suggest that lions give away much less weight and strength than was previously supposed, indeed it is unlikely that they do give anything away. If you study all the journal, without prejudice, you will find that the lion behaviour is far more involved with fighting.*

All zoologists, serious in bigcat zoology, understand what a terrible fighter the lion tom is. Most of the big game experts involved in conservation on the plains of Africa have had some tiger experience at one time or another and would never back against a good sized Tom lion. Some zoologists involved strictly with tigers have a surprising lack of knowledge regarding lion’s behavior. The best qualified, are Zoologists which are involved in all carnivorous mammals.

Tigers do fight but nowhere near as much as a pride holding pairing.They do not plan out an assault like a nomadic tom lion. They do not reside in pairs so that they cannot hone their skills during competition for in pride mating. They do not have a mane which is often used as a buffer in battle. If we ignore these options, we ignore zoology.

We can theory all night by using the foundation of passionate zoologists but at the end of it all, the lion tom still has that Physical hair around his head and neck. They will employ a mane to buffer down an onslaught. These onslaughts will last about 2 minutes before exhaustion is encountered. The critical area is energy retention. The cat is set up to high speed predate and rest. The weapons are in place to fight but the fitness isn’t, at least not for any length.

the male lion has evolved to specialize in fighting ability, the social life has allowed for this specialization. Tigers simply couldn't afford to be so perfectly suited for fighting because other demands called for certain traits which were naturally at odds with fighting prowess.
With females providing food for him the male lion's adapting for hunting and survival was allowed to relax in favor of adaptations specifically suited for his role in the social group. Which happens to basically be fighting at its essence? This isn't to say on any given day a tiger won't kill a lion in a scuffle. But the male of the lion species is the superior fighter over the male of the tiger species by definition.

Denying this is ignoring the amazing planet we live on and how it operates."
http://www.bluevalleyk12.org/education/staff/staff.php?sectionid=1376

Take a look at the tiger diagram, the tiger has about 1-3 inches of muscle there in his front end neck before the trachea via windpipe is severed:



(Examples of Durability vs Vulnerability)





The circumfrence of the tigers neck is nearly the same of that of the man, the lions neck circumfrence including the mane is double that of the man.


(Three times the tiger couldn't bypass the mane)



THE TIGERS VULNERABILITY


There was a full moon on the night of 10 November 1981 when a tigress and two cubs appear to have been walking down the Lahpur vallet nearly 20 kilometres from Jogi Mahal. She must have spotted an adult male tiger walking the opposite direction. Indications existed of the cubs scampering away. The tigress seemed to have conintued towards the tiger then risen and gone to sit in the sandy part of a nearby stream bed. Obviously at this moment the tgiress was doing her best to be affectionate with the male and bid him a rapid farewell before any interaction was possible between him and the cubs. But it did not work. The cubs seem to have attempted scampering back to their mother, probably finding the insecurity of separation to much to take. At this moment there must have been havoc, and some incredible vocalization was even heard in a guard post some 2 kilometres away. It appears that the male moved in a flash towards the cubs, and the mother was forced to take quick action. With a leap and a bound she attacked the male from the rear, clawing his right foreleg before sinking her canines in and killing him.


(Prince is killed by Princess)

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ST18940104.2.22




Chennai Vadalur: A four-year-old white tiger died of head injuries when an attempt by the zoo authorities here to get him to mate with a tigress
http://archives.deccanchronicle.com/130823/news-current-affairs/article/mate-kills-male-white-tiger-zoo


(Tiger has his throat ripped out)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=CHP18890528.2.39


(It seems the male can only beat the female when the tigress is unaware or taken by surprise)

Female Tiger Killed by Its Companion at zoo A five-year female Bengal tiger was mauled to death by a male tiger when romping in Shenzhen Safari Park Saturday. According to the introduction of the witness, when romping in the enclosure, one tiger suddenly bit another younger tiger on its neck until it was motionless. Although the feeders came and drove away the tigers through firecrackers, it was too late to save the female tiger. The incident occurred at around four o’clock in the afternoon and lasted for about 10 minutes.


In January 1997, a 6-year-old female white tiger, Nirvana, was choked and killed by her mate Baroda (who had been born at The Mirage in 1993)
http://messybeast.com/genetics/tigers-white2.htm">http://bigcatrescue.org/female-tiger-killed-by-its-companion-at-zoo/[/ur]


In January 1997, a 6-year-old female white tiger, Nirvana, was choked and killed by her mate Baroda (who had been born at The Mirage in 1993)
http://messybeast.com/genetics/tigers-white2.htm



THE DEVIL TIGER 1934



In the brawl between a tiger and a leopard, the latter seems to be outclassed because it is considerably smaller than the striped cat. When it comes to a heated argument between a lion and a tiger the former gets all the applause, and according to the voice of a referee from the screen it subdues the tiger.
http://www.nytimes.com/movie/review?res=9901EFDE1F3DE23ABC4153DFB466838F629EDE


(Lioness looks to be biting the tigers skull = Center of Page)
[ur]http://fultonhistory.com/Newspaper4/Amsterdam%20NY%20Daily%20Democrat%20and%20Recorder/Amsterdam%20NY%20Daily%20Democrat%20and%20Recorder%201934%20Mar-Jun%20Grayscale/Amsterdam%20NY%20Daily%20Democrat%20and%20Recorder%201934%20Mar-Jun%20Grayscale%20-%201052.pdf[/url]

This looks like the devil tiger 1934 movie photo on a french science book:
http://www.journaux-collection.com/fiche.php?id=221269

(Jam sahebs full testimonial of seeing 4 lions fight 4 tigers)
www.zoosprint.org/ZooPrintMagazine/2007/July/3-8.pdf


The tigers throat is highly vulnerable to throat grabs, even the weaker gender the females are capable of killing the male tiger, who was suppose to be all the superior in strength, size, testosterone ect. This is due to the fact that the tiger exposes and exploits his own vulnerability more than any cat, hes the only to fight both on:


PRIMARY: BI-PEDAL/PRO-LONG STANDING ON HIND LEGS

(Which exposes his throat to both Clawing lacerations and Biting wounds)






SECONDARY: BACK FIGHTING AND ROLLING OVER


(Which allows his opponent to get into a dominant position to mount)





The stress test of mating shows who is the superior animal, the male tiger is usually killed by one tigress, lions mate and quarrels with 6-12 different females in mating season. The tiger faces only 1 rival at a time for territory, lions must face multiple coalitions of males, and or large groups of male/female prides at a time. The tiger fights only for 2 themes of his life...Mating and Territory, the lion goes through that but in far greater quanitys, the lion also has another element besides to rule and conquer for land and mating...he fights to protect, the tiger doesnt have this concept, he doesnt provide any shelter and protection for his cubs, mates, siblings and elders, not just against other lions, but the male lion puts himself in harms way to protect his pride against all threats, against clans of hyenas, wild dogs, buffalo, crocs and any animal you can name, if the male lion is present and a threat is upon his cubs, he will fight to the death, this is why the lion out of all the pantheras was the only one gifted by nature a protective mane, because of his magnanimity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnanimity

The lions magnimious ways goes beyound protecting his cubs, females and pride, he protects things that can't at times protect them selves from un-fair harm, wheather other animals, or even humans, the lion has been documented saving humans more than any wild beast.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2014 at 20:17
great stuff prime Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2014 at 17:29
Originally posted by LionKing

great stuff prime Thumbs Up



Hey L.K, the guys from yuku, jackjacksonj, tigervslion blog ect dont have anything that supports the tiger would win or even pull off a 50/50, they have to lie, and conseal the truth on majority of there accounts, heres a small list of the things that were faked and twisted:

On wiki it states in 1909 a male tiger kille a male lion, in the actual article no lion being killed is mentioned:




The lion couldn't do anything because there was a chain on the tigers thorat protecting him, similar concept:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CU3G6CbnZEsC&pg=PT59&dq=dogs+fight+tiger+throat&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fuQAVOjkBNGRyATO3oDIAg&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA


The Baroda account is non-existant in indian culture, it was from a fictional author who wrote similar abstracts:

(read two pages/its a dream:Fiction)
http://books.google.com/books?id=A_VMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&dq=terrific+fight+between+gorilla+and+lion&source=bl&ots=F8jW3-6zhU&sig=IwbNZ72EE3zgx5mu4tG3CW8_jSY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1Q0AVIO3MIeAiwLsrYDoDQ&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBQ

It was from a author from once a week of Bradbury and evans, who he wrote the fictional book called The gay science:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneas_Sweetland_Dallas

There are no writings in india of that gaekwar of 1899 having staged a fight:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baroda_State



This is what national geographic said prior its wiki quote:



The folk of the sawdust ring and the menagerie vote for the tiger rather than the majestic lion as king of beasts—at least so far as strength is concerned. If the lion has any claim to royal lineage, he probably is king of boasts. While no coward once engaged in mortal combat, particularly in the protection of his young, Leo finds the odds against him when he gets into an an argument with a tiger Occasionally, however, the tiger allows his claws to become tangled in the lion's huge mane and loses the battle.


Misinformation:


Its more detailed and true account:

TIGER KILLS LION IN FIGHT. Huerta Meets Death in Unequal Combat in Bronx Zoo. From the New York Herald. Huerta, a 2-year-old Nubian lion, was kiled yesterday In a terrific battle with Rajah, a big Bengal tiger, In Bronx Park Zoo. Keepers and attendants made fruitless attempts to stop the bloody duel. 'It was an unequal combat, Rajah being; nearly twice tha size of his opponent, but Huerta fought gamely until ·finally cornered and killed by the snap of Rajah's Jaws across the back of his neck. In some unexplained manner the door between the cages of the two denizens of the Jungle became unbarred during ths night, and Huerta got Into Rajah's cage 'about 7 o'clock this morning and immediately the battle began. Huerta had the better of the fight during the first few minutes. He seemed as anxious for the fray as the big tiger, and was poised for a leap at Rajah's throat when the tiger got the death grip. With the body of the lion lying Inert on the floor, Rajah sniffed at it a few times to satisfy himself that he had completed his work, and then backed into a corner, where he began administering to his own wounds. He had not come out of the fight unscathed. One ear was chewed off, his neck and back had been lacerated, and he may lose an eye.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:IbOiIJ1xT9IJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/31575718/+site:newspapers.com+huerta+lion+tiger+rajah+2+year+old&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1


The size difference betweena 2 year old lion and an adult:



More Missinforming:


Leonida a tiger that attacked the trainer, this weekend the Fame young tiger that killed old lioness Friday. Roger took lion." advantage of the confusion and attacked Sultana while she was off guard. Before Casartelli could intervene the tiger had ripped open the lioness' throat and stomach.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:nrwgguhvQMUJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/23565951/+site:newspapers.com++tiger+ripped+open+stomach&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



It states here in the middle of the page, Fiction:
http://books.google.com/books?id=QasaAwAAQBAJ&dq=count+belisarius+of+the+arabs&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html&source=gbs_navlinks_s



Heres him lying the tiger was a female:
http://animalsversesanimals.yuku.com/topic/4014

The lions name was jackie:


The tigers name was satan (Male balls)


They belonged to melvin Koontz:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:j7znt1f2D9gJ:http://filesofjerryblake.com/2013/11/18/jungle-jim/+the+lost+jungle+lion+vs+tiger+jackie&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivnsstrip=1



Sidney Castro misinforming people:



What really happned at calcutta:

(Alipore zoo in calcutta)


A full-grown lioness was lately con-signed by the Sultan ot Zanzibar as a present to Lord Lansdowne, and was safely conveyed to the Zoological Gardens, Calcutta. During a conversation the keepers had an argument as to the fighting abilities ot tigers and lions. The tiger's keeper jumped on to the lioness's cage and lifted up her door, when the tiger leaped on the top of the sleeping lioness, caught her by the throat, and held on for a few minutes, when she died without; a struggle.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=HBH18891122.2.20.1




Tragically, the lioness Savannah, as she was recovering from the drug, was attacked by the male tiger Seatao.

http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters41.htm


Him faking a account:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ERNZLal0ro

And heres the real source that said they were mating and produced one of the rare hybrid offsprings:

http://cryptozoologie.xf.cz/4_selmy/leopon.htm


Faking another one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eqWZJtdhCc

Heres the real deals:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthpicturegalleries/5060701/Animal-pictures-of-the-week-27-March-2009.html?image=3

A vet checks the eye of an African lion undergoing eye surgery at a zoo in Ningbo, Zhejiang province, China...under anaesthesia undergoing an eye surgery operation is held by workers at a zoo in Ningbo, Zhejiang province March 23, 2009. The 10-year-old African lion's eye was scratched during a fight with other lions at the zoo, resulting in serious granulomatosis and damage to its eyesight, Xinhua News Agency reported."
http://mliberalguy.blogspot.com/2009/03/african-lion.html



(Jim Tullys circus parade)



It says right there in blue, Fiction:
http://books.google.com/books/about/Circus_Parade.html?id=Iht5PwAACAAJ



Lying that it was a female sumatran:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evFSNv4tmWI

There were three tigers used (all male bengals), the first two were killed:


(Caesar killed Bobby)
http://www.google.com/search?q=clyde+beatty+bobby+throat+caesar+&tbm=bks&tbo=1

(Sultan killed Tommy)

Thrilling story of fight to finish.

"We shot the scene without a single rehearsal", beatty said. As usual the director insisted on a rehearsal, but I convinced him the best opportunity for a realistic battle would be when the two animals first met. You simply can't rehearsal a scene like that. Hence the cameramen were ready and the fight was a real one, unfaked... And claw to claw, fang to fang battle between natrual enimies of the cat family proved conclusively that the fighting prowess of the lion is superior to that of the tiger according to beatty the tiger lost the battle after a terrific struggle]We used a untamed tiger for the battle scene because we figured a good fight was a likely to ensue, the trainer continued. That tiger never before been in a cage with a lion.

Nearly a score of movie stars watched the battle and the majority of them bet on the tiger. I had no idea which would win, but I figured sultan had an even chance, though lions are gang fighters and a tiger is supposed to be invinceable in a single-handed battle with almost any animal. My reasons for giving the lion an even chance was that I knew that when one takes a hold with his teeth it is in a vital spot, while a tiger sinks his teeth and hangs on whereever he grabs first. Thats exactly why tommy lost the fight. While the tiger is simply hanging on to a shoulder, the lion was manuvering into position to get his enemys throat, all the while using his blade-like claws to great advantage, from now on I'll bet on the lion.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/76673362

(3rd lion smaller than male bengal)




Samuel haughton and Frayer lying on multiple things:



First lie, it only took 4 men, not 9:

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ME18970211.2.34

Second lie, martial never said the tiger always won, he mentions only one account:

(Marcus Valerius Martialis)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial

Translated by Anon…
OV THl PimiJO 8H0W8. 18
The rare-seen glory of th' Hyrcanian land,
A tiger, wont to lick his master's hand,
In pieces tore a lion in his rage,
A thing not known before in any age.
He durst not this attempt in forests high:
Beasts among men learn greater cruelty
http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost01/Martialis/mar_spec.html

In no where in his text did martial state the tiger always won, he only mentions a single occaison, and historians taled it as a staged and rigged event.



All of these lies, misinforming, twisting of the truth, deceptive accounts, cherry picking, being subjective and bias comes from one person, the maker of jackjacksonj, he has over 200 aliases, 10 websites, and posted on over a 100 forums, youtube accounts and wiki like sites, erasing everything in favor of the lion...when me and counter strike were on yuku, they'd erase anything that exposed there lies, they also erased countlesss of others posting data that supported the lion like some kind of skin head nazi cult burning books, showed evidence that as erased. These arnt even all the accounts he faked, he uses an account he made up of a single tiger that killed 60 lions, and even a misinformed one about a tiger killing 31 lions for the King of oude, who only had 2 lions in his collection, there are hundreds more he has photoshoped, why? I have no f**king clue.


It goes to show, if he really thought the tiger was the superior animal, why would he go to such such dire and extreme lengths to make up lies and bullshit? And to even lie on people who actually favor the lion, he did it to Clyde beatty, Bert nelson, Damoo dhotre, Kailash sahnkala, Terrell jacobs, Charley baumnum, Pat anthony and more...hes labeld everysingle tiger fighting a lion a sumatran female like the Big cage (Clyde beatty) movie, the Jungle jim (Melvin koontz) movie, the King of the Jungle movie (Mabel stark), all the tigers in the Gir forest fight, Roar the movie, Everlands episodes, and more... for all the 100's of people hes insulted and character assainated, he makes fun of people who recently died of cancer, post pictures of sick and starving lions and laughs at them, says countless of times he hates the lion, talks about how he loves tiger penis...I mean who the f**k says shit like that? This guy oughta get his teeth kicked the f**k in.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2014 at 18:14
Yes Prime!
This guy is so pathetic.. He knows that the lion ist the better fighter, but he wants to represent the tiger as the tougher fighter because its his favourit cat.

Btw. its amazing that the 2 year old lion does a very well fight against an adult bengal tiger.
There you can see what an adult lion can do with a tiger.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2014 at 21:59

We know that George Conklin favors the lion in a fight as he mentioned his own eye witness account, also interesting that he had 40 years of experience at this time and was superintendent of the Barnum and Baily menagerie.  I'll have to get a clearer pic of this paper. So Conklin superintendent of Barnum, Peter Taylor was chief trainer of the American Circus corporation, Bert Noyes was head keeper of all animals of the Hagen Beck Wallace circus, William H. Blackburn was first head keeper of the National zoological park, and specialized in handling the big cats for 12 years at Barnum and Baily.  You can't get higher credentials then these guys.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10349897_1472362756351363_5880490197752222196_n.jpg?oh=655643b37895653112dcfd8806ce3759&oe=546A785C&__gda__=1415645964_e77f2b58a87e840f8c15a5acb10ef3dc






Also interesting, Dave Hoover actually says he prefers tigers in this newspaper article, in other words, he likes them better to work with, but says lions are tougher, you can't get any less bias then that.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10659406_1472362679684704_3262803332120115904_n.jpg?oh=986606483e7787d468d169c40d5dc52b&oe=547B44F6&__gda__=1415537359_3a4aee2a21c7f875035a7e6e96665e80




https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1896989_1472362699684702_3425703769043637129_n.jpg?oh=9a56a18cc8729a546d45d3f6210e65b0&oe=5467705C&__gda__=1415369088_a644bf8198a7f50805ddf0950bc942fb

Most circus acts only use one safe well mannered male lion as the show piece and surround it with female lioness's and tigress's and a few male tigers.


Hoover does the opposite, he has only 1 female and the rest males, and equal amount of both lions and tigers.  So these are male tigers that Hoover is witnessing the lions beating in fights.


https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10622721_1472363023018003_7340084632153968181_n.jpg?oh=61c8ad56662111a0ecfeb4e15acbbaa7&oe=546D75FA




You have to mix the cats to see them fight, and there are almost no mix cat lion tiger trainers that back the tiger in a fight with the lion.  And even the all tiger trainers that back the tiger admit they like the tigers better.

The one mix cat trainer that backs the tiger in a fight, again just like Maybe Starks, Gunther Williams, Baumann, Anthony, says he likes the tiger better then the lion.  He actually in some sense  compares lions to slums, and tigers to aristocrats in his comments, and then admits, a lot of trainers will tell you different, in other words, hes bias.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10645237_1472362673018038_935656823617115334_n.jpg?oh=70a1fe1a8198c930f0fdd81453706b1f&oe=547113EE&__gda__=1417624662_800af453e3cd93ad387b1ab53c9be555


Edited by Lion crest - 03-Sep-2014 at 22:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Sep-2014 at 23:36
Originally posted by Lion crest


We know that George Conklin favors the lion in a fight as he mentioned his own eye witness account, also interesting that he had 40 years of experience at this time and was superintendent of the Barnum and Baily menagerie.  I'll have to get a clearer pic of this paper. So Conklin superintendent of Barnum, Peter Taylor was chief trainer of the American Circus corporation, Bert Noyes was head keeper of all animals of the Hagen Beck Wallace circus, William H. Blackburn was first head keeper of the National zoological park, and specialized in handling the big cats for 12 years at Barnum and Baily.  You can't get higher credentials then these guys.




https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10349897_1472362756351363_5880490197752222196_n.jpg?oh=655643b37895653112dcfd8806ce3759&oe=546A785C&__gda__=1415645964_e77f2b58a87e840f8c15a5acb10ef3dc

Also interesting, Dave Hoover actually says he prefers tigers in this newspaper article, in other words, he likes them better to work with, but says lions are tougher, you can't get any less bias then that.


[ur]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10659406_1472362679684704_3262803332120115904_n.jpg?oh=986606483e7787d468d169c40d5dc52b&oe=547B44F6&__gda__=1415537359_3a4aee2a21c7f875035a7e6e96665e80[/url]



https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1896989_1472362699684702_3425703769043637129_n.jpg?oh=9a56a18cc8729a546d45d3f6210e65b0&oe=5467705C&__gda__=1415369088_a644bf8198a7f50805ddf0950bc942fb


Most circus acts only use one safe well mannered male lion as the show piece and surround it with female lioness's and tigress's and a few male tigers. Hoover does the opposite, he has only 1 female and the rest males, and equal amount of both lions and tigers.  So these are male tigers that Hoover is witnessing the lions beating in fights.


https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10622721_1472363023018003_7340084632153968181_n.jpg?oh=61c8ad56662111a0ecfeb4e15acbbaa7&oe=546D75FA

You have to mix the cats to see them fight, and there are almost no mix cat lion tiger trainers that back the tiger in a fight with the lion.  And even the all tiger trainers that back the tiger admit they like the tigers better. The one mix cat trainer that backs the tiger in a fight, again just like Maybe Starks, Gunther Williams, Baumann, Anthony, says he likes the tiger better then the lion.  He actually in some sense  compares lions to slums, and tigers to aristocrats in his comments, and then admits, a lot of trainers will tell you different, in other words, hes bias.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10645237_1472362673018038_935656823617115334_n.jpg?oh=70a1fe1a8198c930f0fdd81453706b1f&oe=547113EE&__gda__=1417624662_800af453e3cd93ad387b1ab53c9be555



I see you made it back in C.S, awesome finds on Hoover, whats the last Pat anthony? For this forum the formating is a bit older, so when you post links you have to manually type in at the beggining of the link and at the end, for it to go through, and it must be touching the first and last letters. Same with images, the beggining .


But Yeah, its obvious why the people like mabel make poor sources, they dont mix the acts so they know little of their conflicts inter-specific wise, they also admit to their own biasness:




So, its to his statement, not directly to beatty. Hence she did set up a fight, as it states in the article "Miss stark declared at the Paramount studios, where she is assisting in scenes for King of the jungle".


So she got her wish, since she waged that bet they set up a fight with her lions and tigers in King of the Jungle, it was all on her now, it was an indirect statement, not a direct one, she knew beatty, she could have gone straight up to his face and tell him, Harriet beatty probably would have slapped her in the face in how cruel that sounded, beatty never wished death upon his animals nor harm:

(Clyde beattys words)







He only explained what he goes through, not what he had never seen before. lol Harreit beatty mixed more lions and tigers than mable did, mabel only held acts with them seperate. If beatty did watch that fight later when it came out on block buster, I'm pretty sure he was laughing his ass off, as it didnt show anything in how big of a talk mabel was whining about, there is no inclination that Beatty even heard about that offer nor would it make sense to take it up, beattys tigers were up to 10,000 bucks, mabel didnt even buy any of her own tigers that shows how much she cared less for their welfare as she doesnt take care of them, they were gifts from louis roth, the same guy who said he seen a leopard kill a large tiger. Mabel, you owe some one a 1,000 bucks.

(tiger afraid of lion, only ambushes when not looking)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K25O5K5kKY

(tiger is afraid of lion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QNywR1OFSQ

(Lion accepts tigers challenge)

The tiger is a coward. He never attacks from the front
http://books.google.com/books?id=pIysL_AsCM0C&pg=PA58&dq=the+tiger+is+a+coward++never+attacks+front&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kAD8U6LFH5S2ogSG1YDwCA&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz5MzubPFYE[/url

The tiger is a coward. He never attacks from the front
http://books.google.com/books?id=pIysL_AsCM0C&pg=PA58&dq=the+tiger+is+a+coward++never+attacks+front&hl=en&sa=X&ei=kAD8U6LFH5S2ogSG1YDwCA&ved=0CAYQ6AEwAA



My companions and myself walked with this intrepid little Hindoo to the lair of the sleeping foe. We were the less apprehensive of any personal danger, knowing that the tiger is a very cowardly animal, and seldom makes an open attack; and further, that it always prefers attacking a native to a European.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ULUUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA345&dq=the+tiger+is+a+coward++attacks+back&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8QD8U52nGMi4ogTH8oH4AQ&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAw


the tiger, indeed, is a coward, and fights only perfidiously, or through necessity.
http://books.google.com/books?id=kWIgAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1279&dq=buffalo+and+tiger+fight&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yv37U_rTDcO6ogSdgoKABw&ved=0CA4Q6AEwBDgK


For many years Clyde Beatty had been the most famous animal trainer in the United States Mister Beatty was an American circus performer known for his fighting act." In this act he controlled forty lions and tigers. Mister Beatty also performed with dangerous mixes of tigers, lions, leopards, pumas, hyenas and bears....

Mister Gebel-Williams had high praise for Clyde Beatty's bravery and skill. But Mister Gebel-Williams made his own animals perform by being friendly to them. He said he wanted to work with happy animals. He did not believe in making them fear him.

Training by Gunther Gebel-Williams began and ended with kindness. He never had an animal operated on to make it safer for him. All his big cats kept their hard, sharp claws on their feet. He spoke to animals in the same soft voice each time he worked with them. When they performed well he gave them special foods. When they failed too bey he expressed mild displeasure. He never used chairs or whips or guns.
http://www.chinavoa.com/show-377-103511-1.html


Yes beatty had a differet styled act, the older acts of beatty, hoover, terrell and nelson were more of  excitement, glamour, and heart pounding, while gables was boring, dull and kinda go sit over there my fat cat who was raised from cub in captivity.

(Beattys words)



Gabels acts are in reality the more risky in long terms, if not more stupid...the whole idea of gabels acts is to be friends with the big cats best friends forever, one thing in animal taming is noted by everyone who stepped into the cage, is no animal is ever tamed, by letting his gaurd down is the number one way to be killed by the animals, the crowd could trigger a fear in the bigcats, a certain noise, a bad day, the lighting, tempers, jeolousy ect, beatty understood this, this is why he had a chair, a gun with blanks and a whip...to defend himself with show and noise, and keeping his distance, the animal orginization Peta...has documented a thousand tiger, lion, bear leopard ect attacks on human trainers, this is because they get too comfortable with there animals, they've forgoton that they are dealing with 300+ pound killing machines, wheather if its the animals intent or not, they have weapons that can ridiculously kill you with a glance on purpose or accidental, as beatty stated you can't be curel to an animal, espeacially his since they were wild bred, they will remember you and take you as a threat. Whats gebel gona do when two animals start fighting, two 500 +lb killing machines, could he ask them politely, please mr tiger and mr lion settle down, lol If he got in their way he would have been killed instantly since he has no equipment to divert there attention, calling in help might be way to late, a few seconds is all it takes to be killed, this is why he never mixed his acts, he hardly used lions in comparison to tigers and he used captive born spoiled animals, he even said himself that he didn't like working a group of lions, they are noisy, loud and to willing to stage a fight. No one can match beattys acts pound for pound as hes still today the guiness record holder of the mix tiger/lion act.

Gebel's lions/tigers are the true scardy cats, they've lost all there nerves from young, Beatty only worked 3 years an up, Hoover almost 2 years an up:
www.circushistory.org/Backyard/Backyard15Nov1998.pdf -

So lets look at her tigers, it seems her tigers look to be in the 200-300 pound range:





She says tigers are not afraid, then she says tigers are afraid, sounds contradicting to me:

(Mables words)



Starks was the one who hand picked the cats to fight:

The pressbook noted that animal trainer Mabel Stark handled the "cats" and appeared in the film, and animal authority Jules White also assisted in the film.
http://www.afi.com/members/catalog/DetailView.aspx?s=&Movie=3816

But she didnt like lions, so we can see why such the arrogant statements:

(Mables words)



The first video on here is the Devil tiger fight its a nearly maneless male, thats why the french article shows what looked like a lioness, its also in a jungle setting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzizwdt5MLw


King of the jungle was in a housed encloser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_PwQqTtXrY


So we now know that, that tiger lost in Devil tiger...as it was being controled on the ground and the tiger ran at the end, that tiger probably was killed as it was shaken by the neck more than several times by the young male, remember the trainer who ref'd that fight said the tiger was subdued, and multiple photos like from the french book magazine showed the lion with a skull bite. Alot of the films are all jumbled up so its hard to see which fight is from which film, not to mention bigcat82 always cuts out scenes where lions are winning, he does it to all his edits and even replays the parts tigers win to act as it was prolonged lol...but one thing is more clear, Devil tiger was made after mabels movie:


-The big cage 1933: Tommy and Booby were killed and the 3rd tiger lost.
-King of the jungle 1933: Mabels lion (not even interested in the fight) was smashing the shit out of the tiger she picked.
-The Devil tiger 1934: The tiger was nearly killed by the young lion.
-Jungle Jim 1936: Satan lost to Jackie
-Gir forest fight 1945: 3 lions defeated 3 tigers.
-Roar the movie 1981: The siberians were running from the lions.



Yeah, Pat anthony and Gunther gebel both idlelized beatty, no one in the lion/tiger training buisness came even close to Clyde beatty, Terrell Jacobs, Dave hoover, Bert nelson and Pete taylor. Of coure others like Koontz and Clark would talk trash about him, they arnt recongnized or ever got as much fame, John Clark was a joke, he talked complete BS about beatty and Koonzt said Beatty wasnt a trainer, Koontz was so one minded he had greater numbers than a hundred trained animals under his belt. He chastized Jakie the lion for being the ugliest lion alive and pulled out jakies teeth because Melvin was going blind and he was too slow to see jakie who kept biting his arm, so he pulled out jakies teeth/fangs...Poor showmenship. He stated Beatty wasnt a trainer and only showed them at the end, sorry for koonzt...just because he helped trained one or two of beattys lions/tigers doesnt mean anything, it can all be exploited in beattys 3 books...

In his three books he has hundreds of pages of him training his big cats over 40 years, there are no crowds with these photos because these are the training sessions...The performance attracted 3,000 to 10,000 audiances...how much did Koontz attract? A few hundreds, how much did he train a few hundreds? Beatty had 2,000 lions/tigers under his belt and the guiness record to boot, you can combine Melvin koonzt, Mabel starks, John S clark, and anyamount of trainers anyone see's fit, and they wont even add up to half the lions/tigers beatty alone has worked with, they havent seen 1/10th the amount of fighting he mentions. And there is still alot more to be found on those super five.


Awesome finds L.C, keep them rollin in. ^_^
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Housecarl
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2014 at 10:54



Thanks Prime, yes, the trainer I was referring too was Capt. Dutch Ricardo, he is one of the only mix cat lion tiger trainers that back the tiger, along with Pat Anthony, but I'm still not clear to Pat's opinion as there are no direct quotes from an actual paper or article.  But never the less, Pat Anthony also liked tigers much more then lions and I have those quotes where he said this, Beatty never said who he liked more, nor did Nelson, Jacobs or Peter Taylor.

As well, we don't know how many lions and tigers Ricardo mixed, we know at times he had both, but there is no number and little info known about his act.
His statements are obviously bias, that is clear.


https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10645237_1472362673018038_935656823617115334_n.jpg?oh=70a1fe1a8198c930f0fdd81453706b1f&oe=547113EE&__gda__=1417624662_800af453e3cd93ad387b1ab53c9be555



As far as that bet that Maybel made, what people don't understand is, you can't just have the 2 cats fight to the death, you can be put in jail for that.  Beatty always tried to break up the fights, even in the bigcage, it was his plan to save Tommy and Bobby, but they died too quickly and he couldn't break them up in time. There isn't one fight that ever happened that Beatty didn't try to break up to save the cats, Beatty even saved a tigers life that seconds ago almost killed him.

Any charges against Beatty that were made at that time were dropped,


https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10440745_1438325799755059_1468946049960809072_n.jpg?oh=4c47ba76a61414b08f6dc9be81629cd2&oe=5466B985


There were animal rights after these tamers like Beatty, so I don't think they can just take up some public bet like that. As well, no doubt Maybel was not rational when making this bet, she was more just up set that Beatty was testifying tigers were afraid of the lions, well he would know, he mixed them, Stark's didn't.


George Conklin also said the tiger was cowardly, this is a fact, all cats are skittish, nervous, lions just happen to be the exception and are wired completely different, more like a dog.

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1484323_1472362716351367_7326882421570989377_n.jpg?oh=2ec4f8c0c71b3e0609ce74baef38ca68&oe=547EA856



Edited by Lion crest - 04-Sep-2014 at 10:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Sep-2014 at 16:50
Originally posted by Lion crest



Thanks Prime, yes, the trainer I was referring too was Capt. Dutch Ricardo, he is one of the only mix cat lion tiger trainers that back the tiger, along with Pat Anthony, but I'm still not clear to Pat's opinion as there are no direct quotes from an actual paper or article.  But never the less, Pat Anthony also liked tigers much more then lions and I have those quotes where he said this, Beatty never said who he liked more, nor did Nelson, Jacobs or Peter Taylor. As well, we don't know how many lions and tigers Ricardo mixed, we know at times he had both, but there is no number and little info known about his act. His statements are obviously bias, that is clear.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10645237_1472362673018038_935656823617115334_n.jpg?oh=70a1fe1a8198c930f0fdd81453706b1f&oe=547113EE&__gda__=1417624662_800af453e3cd93ad387b1ab53c9be555



As far as that bet that Maybel made, what people don't understand is, you can't just have the 2 cats fight to the death, you can be put in jail for that.  Beatty always tried to break up the fights, even in the bigcage, it was his plan to save Tommy and Bobby, but they died too quickly and he couldn't break them up in time. There isn't one fight that ever happened that Beatty didn't try to break up to save the cats, Beatty even saved a tigers life that seconds ago almost killed him. Any charges against Beatty that were made at that time were dropped,

https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10440745_1438325799755059_1468946049960809072_n.jpg?oh=4c47ba76a61414b08f6dc9be81629cd2&oe=5466B985

There were animal rights after these tamers like Beatty, so I don't think they can just take up some public bet like that. As well, no doubt Maybel was not rational when making this bet, she was more just up set that Beatty was testifying tigers were afraid of the lions, well he would know, he mixed them, Stark's didn't. George Conklin also said the tiger was cowardly, this is a fact, all cats are skittish, nervous, lions just happen to be the exception and are wired completely different, more like a dog. https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1484323_1472362716351367_7326882421570989377_n.jpg?oh=2ec4f8c0c71b3e0609ce74baef38ca68&oe=547EA856






Dutch ricardo is talking about the Bostocks fight in 1909, (Mogul vs Prince) the tiger had a enivitable advantage, (a chain around his neck)...that would make it imposible for the lion to finish the tiger quickly like they usually do. Dutch ricardo and Kesri singh both mention only fast scruffles, not full on fights where both can contest their might and skill...and mabel starks proved her self wrong with King of the Jungle.

The reason why Sultana lost to Rajah was because she was not only elderly and attacked off guard, she had been injured in numerous fights with tigers, she once fought off 5 attacking tigresses saving her trainers life:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/text/72536832?dt=1409695316619


Tigers dont have this type of durability, this speaks well of their extracurricular infighting within prides, males having more testosterone developed manes, and females too gained pain tolerance and game. American pit bulls and are noted for their pain Tolerance/Game, to keep coming. When the tiger fights the leopard, he bounds/leaps off in speratic motions, because he cant take the pain from the leopards needle-like claws:

(Weak and poor pain tolerance)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEgu272c5Ls

This is key in a fight for not running away eluding the pain and from collapsing from shock. Pitbulls developed this from the man made enginering of making them fight, curring bad ones and keeping only the top dogs that win and show game breeding them like this over and over again, this is the same process the lions pride promotes natrually by nature.

Thats because lions are accustomed in the wild in fighting multiple foes at a time, the cubs are constantly surrounded, observe, learn and enherit this constant fued for dominance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPyIxQ6MJiY


The lions paw strength is only behind the whales tail and giraffes kick:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NOT19060823.2.27.24



From that time until now I have seen a great many lions, shot some and handled nearly fifty specimens, so that I have made a fairly extended study of the measurements and anatomy of the king of beasts. 1 have tried also to study his living characteristics and habits, but that is much more difficult. After all, perhaps the most impressive thing about a lion is his fore leg. The more you know of elephants the more you regard the elephant's trunk. The more you know of lions, the more you respect the lion's fore leg and the great padded and clawed weapon at the end of it. It is perhaps the best token of the animal's strength. It is probably two or three times as powerful in proportion to weight as the arm of a man. He can kill a man with one blow of his paw. His other weapon, his jaw, is strong enough to break a zebra's neck at one bite. These are a rather rough measure of an animal's strength, but they give some idea of it.
There is a record which says that a lion has dragged an African buffalo fifty yards. A buffalo weighs at least three times as much as a lion. I have never had evidence of this much "pulling power" but I have known of many instances of lions dragging zebras that far, and the zebras weigh nearly twice as much as the lions do.
http://books.google.com/books?id=O20AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=pulling+power+lion&source=bl&ots=smb8Ot17m2&sig=tFjvCJYomnLQKGYsHuvemSeQy8w&hl=en&ei=MjbDTsydGKfy0gHpqqGKDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=pulling%20power%20lion&f=false



Check this out, heres crybaby bigcat82 crying, whining and lying still that a book on Bert nelson exist:

Expert opinions[edit]

Recently an editor made an edit including more expert opinions that favored lions. However, the "experts" this editor quoted actually either favored tigers or changed their standpoints from time to time (i.e. sometime favored tigers, and sometime favored lions). Intentional source misrepresentation and cherry picked statements are clear violations of wikipedia rules and these violations have been committed by editors trying to add contents that favored lions for years. In "the Great Animal Trainer", Bert Nelson actually said the wrong cat (lion) is being called the king of beasts and favored the tiger in a fight with a lion. Dave is well known for his ever changing view and a simple search confirms this. Please also avoid cherry picking and source misrepresentation and further expansion on this section are not necessary as opinions are not encyclopedic, especially for those so called "experts" who don't have a clear standpoint. BigCat82 (talk) 17:48, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Tiger_versus_lion


Ha hah a ha ha. More lies and twisting the truth. He even called you, me:

http://carnivoraforum.com/topic/9348622/237/

lol this guy is so pathetic and desperate, who goes through this basis constantly lying and falsely accusing people ? The lion aint even my most favorite animal, the fighting bull is, I even like the Shire horse more than lions. Ha ha ha Bigcat82 aka renekton is a joke, the only person who has photo shoped things, edited things and lied on almost everything was him, he didnt disprove of anything of the lions mane other than pusedo science, based off of opinions and assumptions.


Cool post on Conklin, he did afterall see a lion named Jugglar kill a tiger named Rajah in the John o' Brian show, yeah many trainers or scientist say that the tiger is faster and still say the lion will win, many say the tiger is more powerful and still say the lion will win, many say the tiger is the larger and still say the lion will win, thats because the lion is more experinced with fighting, has a protective mane, and strikes harder. Yeah mabel was stupid, she said the tiger is the lord an creator of all, atleast beatty admited a elephant would whip a lion/tiger, Mabels comments are ridiculous. Beatty always had a lid on his fights via whips/guns with blanks for noise/distraction and ammonia/water hoses for serious fights, the 3 staged for movies wasnt his idea, it was the producers/directors, he just assured them he and his team could seperate the fight before one was seriously wounded, afterall...they did seperate 100+ fights. But sometimes things don't go as planed, thats why Caesar killed Bobby and Sultan killed Tommy, Beatty an his workers couldn't get in, in time before their throats were rippied out.


Coopers book, said on page 85 a tigress killed a massive male bengal tiger, so did Valmik thapar say that a tigress killed a male tiger, he also says/shows a fight between a female named Machli submiting a much younger more powerful larger male tiger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TABMdrMi9Go

Male lions have to contend with 6-12 other lionesses weekly either for mating for eating first or for tempers that fly for rank jeolousy ect, a tiger losing to a female tiger is just definitive that they are not expereinced fighters:


(Siberian tigers entire sub-species don't even fight 10 times a year)

We detected fighting between tigers only once and of 53 tigers handled, we only once found scaring suggestive of fighting
http://www.google.com/search?ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en&source=hp&q=We+detected+fighting+between+tigers+only+once+and+of+53+tigers+handled%2C+we+only+once+found+scaring+suggestive+of+fighting&gbv=1


The mapogos fought and killed more lions than the entire species of combined morality out-fighting of tigers per year. I don't know where or why do people think guageing hunting experince equates into fighting skill, theres more videos of lone male lions killing buffalo single handedly then theres written/video of tigers killing guar/water buffalo. Asad said the prey base weight/size animals tiger kills is less than 300 kg, via sanbar, antelope and wild boar. Speaking of which, there are 10 accounts of pit-fights with wild boar, the tiger almost always succumbs, there are 20 pit-fights of tigers vs buffalo, 19 out of 20 times the book states the tiger lost, even to donkeys and muel, fighting and hunting are worlds apart, it takes no skill to shank someone from the back (ambush), there are videos of lone lions taking down juvi elephants, a account where a lone lion stalemated and killed a rhino. Both elephants/rhinos are bigger in africa than in india, have bigger and sharper horns, in bigger herds to better defend themselves.


Tigers never face their prey head on, its always by surprise, in the grass fields the lion has no choice but to run down his prey, lions kill the two most lethal prey base there is, the giraffe (hardest kicker on the planet) and just so happens to be the tallest animal on earth, and the most aggresive animal on the planet, Hippos (who has one of the most deadliest bites) Hippos kill more people than tigers, leopards and lions combined, their aggresion is unrivaled in the animal Kingdom guars are about 1/3rd smaller than a hippo and less active as the cape buffalo, tigers dont have this type of diversity, he succumbs to much lesser beings:







THE WILD DOG OF DECCAN.

THE head of this animal is compressed and elongated its nose not very sharp. The eyes are oblique; the pupils round, the irides light brown. The expression of the countenance is that of a coarse, ill- natured Persian greyhound. The ears are long, erect, and somewhat rounded at the top. The limits are remarkably large and strong, in relation to the bulk of the animal its size being intermediate between the wolf and the jackal.

Colonel Barber found these dogs to be numerous on the Western Coast, and in the Balaghat district... They must be very formidable, as all animals are afraid of them. Frequently the remains of hogs and deer were brought to me which had been taken over-night by these wild dogs. The natives assert that they kill tigers and chetahs ; and there is no doubt of the fact.
http://archive.org/stream/popularnaturalhi02londuoft/popularnaturalhi02londuoft_djvu.txt


Asias wild dogs saves elephants and rhinos and over powers tigers and bears:
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OW18910212.2.100

Even buffaloes and tigers are said to have succumbed to an attack of a pack of wild dogs.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=OW19061003.2.232


The same holds good of the savage " dholes " of India, the wild dogs which hunt .
the jungle in packs, and are objects of dread even to the lordly tiger himself
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=ODT18990405.2.22

The Indian wild dogs and little red dholes, of which Kipling writes, hunt in Packs. No animal aiive, not even the lordly tiger, is safe from the pack:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/90984794


How that a sportsman^ to be successful^ should show kindness to natives — ^Boar
of tiger seldom heard — Tigers will swim to avoid danger — ^Tiger shot crossing river — Account of a tiger said to have been killed by pack of wild dogs
http://www.archive.org/stream/largeandsmallga00baldgoog/largeandsmallga00baldgoog_djvu.txt





(wild dogs are known to kill tigers)
http://books.google.com/books?id=V8qMs6x-PhUC&pg=PA71&lpg=PA71&dq=wild+dogs++kills+tiger&source=bl&ots=ZG7y8nA7s9&sig=GA_Tlt1Gswpcw0saqs7VnwO1hYw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u_iCUMrlIIO3iwLNp4HIBA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAQ


There is a persistent tradition that the " dhole " hunt and kill the tiger.
http://books.google.com/books?id=BC0_AQAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA761&lpg=RA1-PA761&dq=wild+dog+dhole+chased+tiger+wounds&source=bl&ots=zjHut-B-jI&sig=_1Zls4rMaJrhl_UOhAu7sAcAPvw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zl0JVJDkGoe9igKlh4DQCQ&ved=0CBgQ6AEwBw


Being social animals, dholes hunt together and this makes them very efficient. They are successful in catching prey up to 80% of the time that they go on a hunt, while tigers have a success rate of only 5%. Even though they’re small in build, the dholes’ overcome this with teamwork. I once watched three wild dogs cross paths with a large adult leopard in the forest; but the dholes teamed up and forced the leopard up a tree! But on another occasion, I saw that a small group of dholes did not confront a tiger, and chose to move away. It would probably take 12 to 15 wild dogs to convince a tiger to back down.
http://www.bwmag.in/the-wild-dhole-chase





http://books.google.com/books?id=2WVEifOyJIcC&pg=PA268&dq=wild+dogs+dholes+kill+tigers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SEUJVLeJI4-4ogTbuYEw&ved=0CAgQ6AEwAQ


There have been sightings of leopard's and tiger's being chased by the dogs
http://kalyanvarma.net/journal/2005/03/10/once-in-a-lifetime-event/


Even the tigers are afraid of these so called Dholes.
http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Asia/India/South/Karnataka/Bandipur/photo106886.htm

In Bandipur, one tiger was killed by a pack of wild dogs over a dispute on a prey.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/travelogues/80946-week-long-wildlife-adventure-kanha-bandhavgarh-2.html

It was a pack of 18 Dholes! Just too big for an endangered species! We were extremely lucky to see them together; got a feel how dangerous the pack would be - when all of them hunt together. Our guide also told us that this was only the second time in his 9 years' career he has seen such a big pack. He told us an incident he had heard - a big pack of Dholes - 24 of them - attacked a tiger. The tiger fought bravely and was capable enough of kill 18 of them but the rest of the Dholes killed the tiger!!
http://www.frozenforeternity.com/images/details.php?image_id=228

Dholes have even been known to kill leopards and chase tigers off a kill:
www.zoosprint.org/ZooPrintMagazine/2009/November/21-22.pdf


On the other hand, aside from Man, no other species isindividually capable of killing a tiger. There are,however, isolated reports of incidences in which a herd ofwater buffalo, a pack of dholes or an elephant have killed a tiger.
www.globaltigerforum.com/country/malaysia.pdf




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZz1Oym2gP4


wild dogs play fearful havoc with game, occasionally clearing out whole districts precisely in the same manner as the red dhole of India, before which even the tiger Is said to retreat
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:9tITWsYFIyoJ:http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/8250464+site:newspapers.com+dholes+tiger+fought&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&prmd=ivns&strip=1



A predator, par excellence, feared even by the tiger and the panther

There were now but six dogs around him and some of them were injured. But the tiger was bleeding profusely from the many wounds he had received. He gasped for breath. The dogs would not relax. From all sides they renewed the attack, yelping and snapping. The tiger roared again, but not nearly so loudly. The will to continue the fight was ebbing. He was definitely afraid.
Just then quite another sound could be heard above the pandemonium: the distant cries of answering wild dogs, not from one direction, but from several, all at once. Reinforcements.
The harassed tiger heard them too, and the fight went out of him. He turned tail and raced away with the six dogs, despite their wounds and exhaustion, after him.
http://creative.sulekha.com/vanishing-species-the-dhole-indian-wild-dog_384119_blog


Wild dogs together compose thisfamily. They are ver much alike in appearance and habbit. They hunt inpacks and how formidable they are can be gauged from the fact thatoften a tiger is chased and at times even killed by them.
sikkim.nic.in/sikkimroot/html/wwf3.pdf


Tigers live in a world of turmoil, panic, fear and submission, this is exactly how he fights, he stands up tall to avoid being routed, and fights from his back (Submissive stances). Tigers are more active than lions because they are incapable of holding their grounds, they are constantly droven out of their area from wild dogs, buffalo an elephants, a tiger can't even handle a leopard, so its out of fear they are on the move, you don't gain more courage from constantly running and being the persued, you gain more courage by chasing the other and being the persuer, hence the lion has more genuine courage and bravery thanks to his social structure. This is not something animals learn out of thin air, it must be observed, experinced and learned, lion cubs gets to see this from their father and older brothers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_eeiN8qwuQ


Lions go up against hyena, and the males couldn't care less how much the odds are:

(Up to 30+)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3W48jEkmUc


Promoted by social structure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1KlmlyYPaE


More infighting within prides promotes less fear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUCxL3GHTIA


On big cat diary they show a group of lions sleeping and the the person doing the documentation said no predator on earth can go into a deep sleep as much as a lion, as no predator in their right mind would approuch a pride that has its males present, so cubs have this luxery of physicological comfort which later transmutes into magnaminity...Tigers never face wolves as frequent as lions face hyenas, I dare anyone to show a combat with a wolf an tiger in terms photo and video in the wild...the search on google images has 10,000+ photos of lion vs hyena...there isnt even 10 photos of a tiger and wolf conflict. There is only one book that mentions the tiger supresses wolf population, but it deprives more on opinion than actual observation. The tiger can barely handle 4 dogs, how is it suppose to handle 4 lions? All the fights renekton aka a thousand aliases mentions of beattys fights were all haulted and stoped by beatty, they were different from the leopard vs 4 lionesses, the leopard could run, in the cage if beatty didn't intervene, chester, rouge, rex, ect would have been killed 100% by the lions. There is no list of tigers whipping multiple lions, but there is a pretty impressive list of lions whipping multiple tigers:


-Bosstweeds
-Sultan
-Altoona mirrors lion
-Duke
-Theba
-Dutch
-Emperor
-Sultana
-Caesar


Cool info bro, keep em comin.



Edited by Prime - 05-Sep-2014 at 15:51
Be honset to thy self!
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