Lions vs. Tigers

Some untold info:


PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES


John Seidensticker, Ph.D. Scientist Zoological Park in Washington, D.C:


http://mysite.verizon.net/johnseidensticker/

"Tigers are similar in size to lions, although tigers have shorter legs"

(Weights including all Sub-speices from Biologist)

Tigers weigh less than lions on average (Kitchener and Yamaguchi 2010)
*     Average adult male lion: 175 kg (386 lb)
*     Average adult male tiger: 160 kg (353 lb)
http://library.sandiegozoo.org/factsheets/tiger/tiger.htm

(Lions 4 foot tall 420 lbs)


(Tigers 3 foot tall 400 lbs)
http://www.google.com/search?q=Focus+are+about+9+feet+long+including+the+tail+and+stand+about+3+feet+tall+at+the+shoulder+and+weigh+400+pounds&tbm=bks&tbo=1

(Size and weights from 40 Year Animal trainer Clyde.B)





The lion is taller than the tiger by 5.5 inches on average (Robert smith)
http://books.google.com/books?id=rmbWriXe1v0C&pg=PT5&dq=the+lion+is+taller++tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LE1iUpLpMeK3iwK5p4GADA&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ

(Sudipta Mitra)

"The Asiatic lion in India is shorter in length than the Indian tiger, but slightly taller in shoulder"

(Arjan Singh)

"They are low slung to the ground and closer to the true cat than the lion, who compares them in size and weight, he stands taller than the tiger."

Example

-Tigers posture head low to the ground
-Lions posture head held high

Lioness (Nala) is taller than male bengal (Detonater) at Head/Shoulder while the tigers body is lower to the ground:


Male lion (Taller x Mane x Heavier) = Equates = To a 2x larger cat than the bengal tiger in size on average:



EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Bert Nelson



Mr. Nelson is the wild-animal trainer of the Hagenbeck-Wallace and orepaugh- Sells Circus...For seventeen years he has been socking lions & tigers on the proboscis... Mr. Nelson tickled the nose of Old Mom, an angry-looking lionessas with the point of a stick and jumped back as Old Mom, snarling enthusiastically, reached out through the cage to claw him" A short time before Mr. Nelson's twenty-four lions and tigers slid lithe-ly into their large central cage, there to snarl and roar and slap sharp- clawed paws at their trainer as he jumped them from pedestal to pedestal. Great Theory" For Some One Else SCARS ARE REMINDER Bert Nelson Also Discredits Belief That Tigers Can Vanquish Lords Of Jungle (Continued /rom Paffe 22) for their little while in the rings and the arena....You never know when one of these babies will go crazy on your hands," said Mr. Nelson. Tigers easier to train, too, he said. Lions Always Beat Tigers "I've seen lots of gang fights between lions and tigers-- we had a me this spring when we opened in Chicago," he asserted...The tiger always attacks the lion by rolling over on his back and going for the throat When he goes for the throat he runs into a mane two or three inches thick and the same mane extends all down ie underside of the lion's body.

~Try To Look Cockeyed Lion In Eye? Not For Mr. Nelson The Sun - Aug 14, 1935
http://www.google.com/search?q=bert+nelson+Tigers+Can+Vanquish+Lords+of+jungle+Lions+Always+Beat+Tigers+mane+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&spell=1&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=DzJzUsGpHMfM2gXUqIHwAw&sa=N


Terrell Jacobs



There is no doubt that the lion reigns as the king of beasts, says Terrell Jacobs of Barnes Brothers circus which opened The lion has a heavy thick mane that protects its throat. An attacking tiger goes for the throat of a foe but cannot bite much except hair when it grabs a lion so the lion has a big advantage...I have seen fights between lions and tigers and have arranged such fights in tarzan pictures and the lion is always the winner. A young lion that has not grown a mane might stand no more than an even chance a tiger but a full-maned lion has all the advantage," said Jacobs

~The Rambler: Evening Independent - Nov 8, 1939
http://www.google.com/search?q=terrell%20jacobs%20I%20have%20seen%20fights%20between%20lions%20and%20tigers%20arranged%20fights%20and%20have%20arranged%20such%20fights%20lions%20are%20always%20the%20winner%20has%20a%20heavy%20man%20that%20protects%20his%20throat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

He states a maneless lion stands a even chance:

(Mane-less Nutuered male lion)




Trevor Bale



The hairy mane the lion's throat, preventing the much-speedier tiger from killing the African cat during a battle and giving the lion the reputation of being King.

~Trevor Bale Tells: Sarasota Herald-Tribune - Mar 20, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=the+hairy+mane+the+lion%27s+throat%2C+preventing+the+much-speedier+tiger+from+tilling+the+African+cat+during+a+battle+and+giving+the+lion+the+reputation+of+being+king+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=w4d0UpbzNefgiAKI1IDgAQ&sa=N


Damoo Dhotre



THE FAMOUS Dhotre, an Indian animal trainer who appeared with many European and American circuses during the 1940s and 1950s was once asked whether a lion or a tiger would win in a battle to the death. Dhotre said he would back a lion. although the tiger is faster, the lion is at least equal in strength. Although the tiger is as fierce and savage as any animal in the jungle the lion has boundless courage" he said in his memoirs in 1961 The heavy mane around the lion's neck also makes it difficult for another animal to grip the lion's throat with his teeth, according to Dhotre.

~Lion Picked In Fight: Milwaukee Sentinel - Jul 4, 1970
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dhotre+said+he+would+back+a+lion.+although+the+tiger+is+faster%2C+the+lion+is+at+mane+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=9912UpXMHKGwiQKehIGICw&sa=N


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


INDIA

Nilakanta Sastri Indian Historian M.A & Dravidologist


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._A._Nilakanta_Sastri

"References to the lion in the Padirruppattu, one to the dread of other animals in mountain slopes haunted by lions, and the other to the lion killing the tiger.


~A Comprehensive History of India: The Mauryas & Satavahanas, 325 B.C.-300 A.D Orient Longmans, 1957
http://www.google.com/search?q=mountain+slopes+haunted+by+lions%2C+and+the+other+to+the+lion+killing+the+tiger+and+&tbm=bks&tbo=1&btnG=Search


CHINA


Tocharians



The Tocharians sent lions to Tang' on three occaisons once in the seventh and twice in the eigth century; the embassy of 719 is especially interesting in that two lions were presented by a Tocharian magnifico on behalf of rome.

(Tai'Zong/Tai'sung)



It glares its eyes---and lighting flashes,
It vents its voice---and thunder echoes,

It drags away the tiger.
Swallows down the bear,
Splits the rhinocerous,
Cleaves the elephant,

It crushes the mighty guar between gums and palate
It bends the boa snake between finger and palm

“A glourious event in the past”


(Sheeps do not have claws)

The lion was even more savage then the tiger.

~~The Golden Peaches of Samarkand: A Study of T‘ang ExoticsUniversity of California Press, 1963
http://books.google.com/books?id=9Z7cZ77SqEQC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA84&dq=ainceint+lions+the+most+powerful+animal&ie=ISO-8859-1&output=html


"The lion, King of beast, occurs in africa, the middle east and north west india. As the power of the han dynasty (206 B.C -220 A.D) extended far into the west, lions began to reach the emperors palace as tribute. When people confined them with tigers and leopards, they were astonished to discover that here was a creature which could subdue the most feared of chinas wild animals, that ferocious maneater, the tiger."
http://www.taiwan-panorama.com/en/show_issue.php?id=199888708122E.TXT&table=2&h1=Art%20and%20Culture&h2=Museums

Chinese historians would assert, as tribute. In Kanghe's dictionary, a work is quoted which says, that in reign of Shun te, of the Han dynasty, in A. i>. 126, Solik a prince of the west presented a Tibetan yak and a lion to the emperor; the latter was of a uniform yellow, and had a tuft on the tail. Marco Polo says, that, during the festival of the White Feast, a lion was conducted into the presence of his majesty, "so tame, that it is taught to lay itself down at his feet." Du Halde also mentions that a lion was among the gifts presented to Hungwoo, the founder of the Ming dynasty; and after his reign, in 1421, shah Rokh's embassadors carried with them another, which was presented to Yunglo; and again, about the year 1466, two were sent to Heentsung by the king of Samarcand.

~The Chinese Repository By Elijah Coleman Bridgman, Samuel Wells Williams



HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS

JAPAN/CHINA

Like the lion, the tiger is a stranger to the Japanese islands, and was usually portrayed in the traditional manner imported from china, via scroll paintings.
~Netsuke: Japanese Life and Legend in Miniature
http://books.google.com/books?id=WWgh3P7OFyUC&pg=PA62&dq=Like+the+lion,+the+tiger+is+a+stranger+to+the+Japanese+islands,+and+was+usually+portrayed+in+the+traditional+manner+imported+from+china,+via+scroll+paintings.&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qK1tUs2NG6SQyAGpiYGICw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA








HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


Clyde beatty 1951



Beatty said the tiger that was killed was one of his veteran performers and had attacked him years ago, sendinging him to the hospital...She was the whole act, he said,"I loved that cat I wouldn't have taken $10,000 for her" He explained the tiger was a roll over cat....He said he will watch the killer lion very closely from now on...the biggest expense I have is tigers killed by lions he said, They are natrual enimies...that makes the show better, He said lions have killed probably '50' tigers in the years he has been working with the big Jungle cats.

~Beatty Fights Off Lion After Tiger Is Killed Tuscaloosa News Feb 20 1951
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=heA-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=G00MAAAAIBAJ&pg=6300,3617947&dq=clyde+beatty+he+said+lions+had+killed+prob-ably+tigers+in+the+years+he+was&hl=en


{1949}


Lion kills 1,000 lb tiger

Lion Conquers Tiger NEW BEDFORD: A lion and a tiger battled to the death here. The lion won. When Biller Bros. Circus moved on to its next stop, it left behind the carcass of the loser, a tiger weighing half a ton.

http://www.google.com/search?q=A+lion+and+a+tiger+battled+to+the+death+here.+The+lion+won.+When+Biller+Bros.+Circus+moved+on+to+its+ton++a+tiger+weighing+half+a+ton.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=r1y1UYbFNaS2iwK30oCoDg&sa=N


So far we know that the:

-The lions mane is a big advantage.
-Tigers are quicker in movement and faster but weaker in strikeing.
-Lions are slightly heavier on average, much taller and alot bigger in size due to the mane.
-Tigers are slightly longer and more ferocious/fearful.
-Lions have killed tigers more then vice versa just about 50x; just from Clyde beatty, even recorded killing the heaviest record breaker size/mass tigers as well.
-It seems more people that has worked with (Both) Agree the lion will always win.


Bigbadbrody, thanks for given me the new experts opinions.

Edited by Prime - 04-Nov-2013 at 02:15

When I think, Tiger seems to can defeat a lion. As we see in the poll majority think like this way. On the other hand lion dominance is clear in the historical sources of this topic.

As living in Turkey where was old tiger and lion habitat, we don't have now.

the last lion  was seen in 1880
the last tiger was seen in  1970

but I really don't remember any tiger figure in my history

Hittite Lion and Urartuian chef god with his lion


Lion-Bull fight from West Turkey and East Turkey

Coin of Lydian capital,  the wall of Diyarbakır
 

Even on the top of the mountains there is no tiger


The great Anatolian goddess, Cybele and her lions


Hasan Pasha of Algiers, Ottoman grand amiral


and  Anıtkabir


one of tiger figure which I can remember from  Byzantine Palace mosaics


In conclusion;

In Turkey, Lions definately kick the ass of tigers in cultural war



Edited by Ollios - 11-Nov-2013 at 13:56

Bulgarian Lion defeated Turkish Tiger (First Balkan War)

PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES

Ph.D Biologist Dale miquelle


http://beta.globaltigerinitiative.org/html/ask-the-experts.php



(^Compliments of Zetaboard member Diane)

Female tigers are at maturity at ages 3 years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=UxWZ-OmTqVoC&pg=PA185&dq=a+tiger+reaches+maturity+at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EnG2Ub2aHsXOigKV4IG4AQ&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA

Male tigers are adults at 4-5 years old
http://books.google.com/books?id=BZpiXjo6lHkC&pg=PA18&dq=a+tiger+becomes+a+adult++at++age&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bnG2Uc7WG-KpiAL9rICQBw&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


Captivity weights that matches the Ph.D Biologist studys on tigers mass:


-400 pound siberian-bengal mix tiger
http://gothamist.com/2003/10/06/tiger_tiger.php
-Taiwan 6 year old siberian tiger weighing 400 pounds
-Dmitri is one of two adult Amur tigers at the Philadelphia Zoo. He's 13 years old and, at 380 pounds, a tad on the heavy side.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dmitri+is+one+of+two+adult+Amur+tigers+at+the+Philadelphia+Zoo.+He%27s+13+years+old+and%2C+at+380+pounds%2C+a+tad+on+the+heavy+side.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-7 year old siberian tiger named bachuta lost creek animal sanqtuary
-11-year-old male Siberian tiger weighing 400 pounds
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/man-critically-injured-by-tiger-at-bronx-zoo/
-Kunali, a 300-pound, 7-year-old Siberian tiger
http://juneauempire.com/state/2011-10-23/alaska-dentist-performs-root-canal-300-pound-siberian-tiger
-This 300 pound, 20 year old male tiger comes to the Tallahassee
http://www.visittallahassee.com/blog/2013/feb/15/bengal-tigers-tallahassee-museum-until-march-1/


20+% increase of lion mass due too same diets of solitary eating as the tiger:

-A 750-pound African lion named Poncho did the job.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/08/21/Bucs/Sapp_scared_He_was_wh.shtml
-Then a tawny, 600-pound African lion leaped lightly out of his cage
http://www.google.com/search?q=Then+a+tawny%2C+600-pound+African+lion+leaped+lightly+out+of+his+cage+and+ran+along+...+A+merciful+shot+rang+out.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-600 pound lion named mufasa
http://www.staugustine.com/stories/080909/news_1834359.shtml   
-A handler was clawed by a 750-pound African lion, a handyman dropped dead
http://www.google.com/search?q=A+handler+was+clawed+by+a+750-pound+African+lion%2C+a+handyman+dropped+dead&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=iXq1UaeMFIa0igKi7YCgDg&sa=N
-Leonard weighed about 750 pounds when he arrived in Boise; a normal lion weighs 350 to 425 pounds
http://www.google.com/search?q=+Leonard+weighed+about+750+pounds+when+he+arrived+in+Boise%3B+a+normal+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=Lni1Ue-fCOWYiAKUyoGQAg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-600 pound lion named alex, west virginia
http://www.google.com/search?q=animals%2C+including+a+grown+tiger+and+%93Alex%2C%94+a+600-pound+African+lion.+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N&btnG=Search
-King leo a 600 pound african lion adopts a red hen 1936
http://www.google.com/search?q=600+pound+african+lion+adopts+a+red+hen++&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
-Scooter a 600 pound 14 year old african lion
http://www.google.com/search?q=Scooter+a+600+pound+14+year+old++african+lion+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N
-Gays lion farm pluto weighs 600 pounds
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/baltsun/access/1670983352.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Mar+12%2C+1933&author=&pub=The+Sun+(1837-1985)&desc=The+Lion+Market+is+Dull+just+Now&pqatl=google
-Sells circus 5 lions all weigh over 600 pounds:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Sells+Gray%27s+to+battle+five+jungle+bred+african+lions++Each+of+his+savage+pets+weighs+over+600+pounds+and+can+break+the+back+of+a&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


Elizabeth marshall thomas




"In contrast, these same tigers--even the biggest and feircest of them all seemed in mortal fear of a certain lion who belonged to another trainer but was sometimes quarted with them. Never did these tigers and his lion get into the ring together, yet the mere presence of the lion in the tiger barn could get the tigers bouncing off the walls of their cages."

http://books.google.com/books?id=3eYUt7Y-PS4C&pg=PA217&dq=lion+dominated+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zaKJUIfCAcWdiALksoGgDg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwBA


Dr. Antle Bhagavan of Big Cat Rescue



"You gotta have mild-mannered lions and tigers," Antle said. "Normally the lion will kill the tigers. "These are just some of my observations over the last 24 years as I have trained some 400 big cats and met hundreds more. By big cats, I only mean the Panthera family (lions, tigers, leopard, jaguars and hybrids) all the rest are in a different category and the small cats (including cheetah and pumas) are in a different class. "They will kill you, but it is not with the same intent and aggressive behavior. Male lions are 100 times harder to train than tigers.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/item_Clr5RjvqTpoGGwtFpwLOPN
http://www.rexano.org/ResponsibleOwnership/Husbandry/big_cat_training_Frame.htm


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


AMERICA

{1991}


"Getting bit by a tiger is worse than getting shot or stabbed, because there's so much pressure or force behind it," recalls Clayton Rosaire, who was once bitten on the top of the head while trying to break up a tiger tussle. "It's like getting hit by a car with nails."

Kay Rosaire still bears scars from a live performance in 1991, when a tiger grabbed and dragged her by the hip.

She was saved when a lion intervened and swatted the tiger away.
http://www.yoursarasota.com/section/visit50&cceid=96055&type=VGATTR

{1846}
Lion saves wild beast trainer Herr driesbach from tiger, leopard and bears

~The Rise of the American Circus, 1716-1899 By S. L. Kotar, J. E. Gessler
http://books.google.com/books?id=VoyOa5mIlI8C&pg=PA147&dq=largest+lion+I+ever+seen+maned+circus+cage+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eEBNUs60I-OziQLv-4HYAQ&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAw

{1839}
“At Birr, in Ireland, in 1839, when ' a keeper of wild beasts, being within the den, had fallen accidentally upon a tiger, who immediately caught the man by the thigh, in the presence of numerous spectators; but a lion, being in the same compartment, rose up, and seizing the tiger by the neck, compelled it to let go, and the man was saved. Numerous anecdotes of a similar character are recorded both by ancient and modern writers.”

~John Kitto, James Taylor
http://books.google.com/books?id=0EsEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA539&dq=At+Birr,+in+Ireland,+in+1839,+when+'+a+keeper+of+wild+beasts,+being+within+the+den,+had+fallen+accidentally+upon+a+tiger,+who+immediately+caught+the+man+by+the+thigh,+in+the+presence+of+numerous+spectators;+but+a+lion,+being+in+the+same+compartment,+rose+up,+and+seiiing+the+tiger+by+the+neck,+compelled+it+to+let+go,+and+the+man+was+saved.'+Numerous+anecdotes+of+a+similar+character+are+recorded+both+by+ancient+and+modern+writers&hl=en&sa=X&ei=L7eUUbSqJcGzyQGU7oCwDQ&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS

JAPAN








HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

"1925, Rudolf Kludsky trains this mixed group of 20 lions and 10 tigers in the stadium or Turin. In the same year each group of species had to be separated as the lions oftentimes attacked the tiger and even killed several specimens.
http://squaresolid.tumblr.com/post/25161533962/squarefocus-tales-of-the-unforgotten-tigers-of-the-world






We know that:

-Multiple tigers can be killed by a single lion.
-Lions have beatin back tigers saving humans.
-Tigers on average are even smaller in captivity unless pamperd and spoiled, while captive lions increase in mass and size by 20+% on average.
-Tigers usually fear the male lion more then vice versa.

Testament of the Wild.


Lets see the definition on the Free dictionary:

1. Something that serves as tangible proof or evidence: The spacious plan of the city is a testament to the foresight of its founders.
2. A statement of belief; a credo: my political testament.
3. Law A written document providing for the disposition of a person's property after death; a will.
4. Testament Bible Either of the two main divisions of the Bible.
5. Archaic A covenant between humans and God.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/testament

Time to dis-credit, exploit and expose the likes of illogical, claims of supporters quoting natrualist that have some of the poors't point of views defying mathematics, science and basic common knowledge, in other words...

LOGIC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic

The sources we are about to refute, dispute, exploit and expose are not authoritys but just random people who arn't historians with Ph.D's, or M.A's of having a basic education of its historical merits, an knowledge of what the they are talking about, these are mere opinions that the team of yuku seems to constantly repeat as if they hold merits and evidence of some sort of proof that tigers have drove out lions from india.

We'll start with the yuku teams quotas and sources such as:


Ullas kanarth quoting of Kesri/keshari singh~Tiger tales:



http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA118&dq=tigers++out+of+lions++responsible++india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ho-NUqitPKepiALE3oGYAw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA


Starting with the facts, that lions live in Prides, and tigers are solitary:


Besides rejoicing a substantial rise in number of lions to 411 in Gujarat's Gir National Park, what has attracted attention of experts is the unique behavioural pattern being displayed by two male lions who now rule the biggest ever pride comprising 32 felines. "The Gir forest is well known universally.

This is the kingdom of lions (Panthera Leo Persica), who are also called as Asiatic Lions. There is an increase in the lion population in the Gir forest. Today, more than 411 lions roam the sanctuary," Dr Sandeep Kumar, Deputy Conservator of Forest (DCF) told PTI. The officials attribute the rise in population to the factors like better protection and other facilities, including availability of abundant prey for the big cats, availability of water and overall improvement in the lion habitat in the area.

"A group of lions having two adult males and several females with their cubs is called as a pride. Here, two males together guard a territory comprising sub-territories of female lions that is called as a sub-group. A sub-group is typically formed by 1 to 3 adult females, their cubs and sub-adults. Adult males regularly visit these sub-groups and father the most of the cubs," said Kumar. He further said two male adult lions are ruling 150 sq km of territory and display dispersal behaviour thus not allowing the sub-adults to feed, mingle with each other and even not let them come in vicinity of the pride. "This (Gir) forest range is ruled by two male lions known as "Kamleshwar males". They have established their territory in this area in 2005 and till date are maintaining, protecting and breeding in it," Kumar said.
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/news/two-kings-of-forest-who-rule-the-biggest-pride-in-gir-park/943236.htm


Kesri singh a tiger hunter of gwailor, must have missed that mathematically 2 is greater than 1, cant see how he misseed that one, inverse 32 is greater then a band of 4 (the max recorded of tiger unity); since we have covered previously that asiatic lions can rival bengal tigers in weight and be larger in exceptional occaisons, 2 on 1 would be too much.

Sticking to facts, there is tangible proof, this is a replication of what out-numbering leads to:

Eight Lions Kill Pair of Tigers in German Zoo:

(Frankfurt zoo)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Zoological_Garden

"Eight lions fought and killed a pair of tigers in Frankfurt's zoo early today after someone had failed to lock the gate between the animals' cages. The one sided battle started when a lioness which recently gave birth to cubs led four adult and three young lions into the tigers' cage. The tigers retreated into a corner before being forced to fight for their lives.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Eight+Lions+Kill+Pair+of+Tigers+in+German+Zoo&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


Inductive reasoning tells us, Man are responsible for the huge decline of lions in india, no animal was prized more, they are the ultimate test and a right of passage, from your average native all the way to royalty using of mass producted fire-arms:

Shah jahan, shooting lions:




Common knowledge tells us...In the wild, a group of lionesses killing a single tiger would be consider'd the norm baided by mathematics 8>2, the lioness from frankfurt zoo just did what any mother lion would have done, went to extremes and lead her pride to kill any near by threats to her cubs, (exactly what would happen in the wild)... as shown lions can have much more in a single pride. One on ones are of the ubmost rares't, yet we have numerous times lone lions out-gamed the bengal possibly the largest current wild tiger alive behind the amur, Tigers would have to slink through lion country unseen, quitely, hidden in the jungle thickets, and he still would run a risk of being seen and opprehended since lions are very territorial; logic, mathematics, science and common sense would gesture lions would walk all up and down tiger country without a care in the world knowing their spartan unity would grant them a victory against any predatorial odds:





Same type of poor opinion which the tiger fans of yuku holds as facts:

~C.A Kincaid
http://books.google.com/books?id=jwfHn-eHZtkC&pg=PT29&dq=tigers+drove+lions+out+of+india&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LpSNUve_DIiEiwLcuoDoBQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ

It seems 99% likely, this person has no knowledge on lions social structure, no knowledge on how many times a asiatic lion has already bested, defeated and killed a bengal tiger one on one, he is no authority, has no credentials, in the scietifical community this information with no evidence would be considered a...joke... its scholar fact that tigers inhabited India first, hmm he must have missed that one before his poor rant.


The reason lions numbers reached near extinction, is because of guns and the everlasting need for man to be the most dominant terrestrial of killing the strongest opposing forces:




In the dry parts of Western India, the lion rather than the tiger was the main target of the hunt:

http://www.google.com/search?q=In+the+dry+parts+of+Western+India%2C+the+lion+rather+than+the+tiger+was+the+main+target+of+the+hunt+and+the+ability+to+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=YyuMUumvNYHQiwKb9oHwAg&sa=N


Lions disappearing in india has nothing to do with tigers, since one would need hundreds upoun thousand, of occaisons single tigers dispatching whole prides, coalitions or even lone lions, not to mention the cubs unlike the tigers are safe guarded around the clock, the source wants people to belive that a single tiger can stand a chance of winning out when encountering the head hunters (coalitions of male lions) who guard, patrol and kill off any predatorial threats:




Not even that amount is needed, the tiger cannot thrive when lionesses are the share holders of the Pride. Who always reside in large groups, so a tigress who has to raise her cubs all on her own...(the male tiger abondins the female and his off-spring), how can she manage to provide food, let alone protection for her cubs if a group of lionesses are on the prowl, we are talking about at-least 5-10 lionesses, history shows it takes just two to pull off a 99% victory in a confined area:


Two young lionesses kill adult white tigress:



One of only 70 white tigers left in the world has died a month after being wounded in a fight with two young lions in an Indian zoo.
Nandan Kanan animal park'

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=MWSB&p_theme=mwsb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0EB82D10F0087120&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM


The lions fastidiousness pace of fighting constantly would be way to much for a tiger to manage, since tigers dont fight as often they dont even encounter tigers as frequent, they remain hidden half the time in thick dense jungle, they will have to deal with a constant amount of encounters which would lead to a life style he is not accustomed to, and cant manage the odds of multiple lions at a time, lions are the closes't things to humans in the cat world, they are social x war-like, a constant need for claiming dominance over everything and anything, tigers are not known for roaring as lions do, they call out to their mates an off-springs with chufts and moans, while lions do the same, they are more known for issuing challanges and pro-claiming ownership of land through the mighteist roar there is:



Which leads to what? Even more confrontations, a tiger wont venture near a region where there are multiple roars, but Craig packer (lion specialist) states lions are that crazy and excepts those odds under his own observation and unique testing, using large speakers to imitate rival lions, lone monarchs of a pride will move toward the challange, this is why the lion has more valour than any other predator:
http://blog.londolozi.com/2012/10/lion-warfare-majingilane-vs-new-males/




More Disputing include:

http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+is+said+that+the+tiger+is+the+more+powerful+and+aggressive+beast%2C+and+that+he+simply+drove+the+lion+out+&tbo=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&ei=NZ2NUok4q5mMAoDsgdAF&sa=N

Yet no merits, no proof and evidence of accounts and occaisons whole sale lions have been found losing in vast quanitys to tigers, they dont even have individual cases of wild lions losing to tigers in the wilderness, heres another example of how (Unity) would have lions prevail every-single time, and these wern't even full grown lions:


{2011}

Two juvi male lions chased around an harrased a adult tiger, until he collapsed from exaustion:



He tried despertaly to protect himself:



But the two young brother’s showed no mercy, the tiger roared with hurendous moans in agony, after on lookers shouted for the lions to stop, shortly after one got a hold of his throat:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlRBGq3rmk


Exsessive hunting, to braging of there superiorty over the mighties't forest and jungle monarch, the title King of beast, was the reason why lions were more targeted than tigers, although just as formidable one on one, the title was given from both indians and british to lions as the heirarcy, so inverse people want to shoot the best, the highest, the more famed to personafie their own titles:


http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/1600_1699/jahangir/hunting/hunting.html


Natrually, on natures accord, a tiger would commit suicide if he ventured into lion country the numbers mathemtically just dont add up:




Back to Kesri/keshari singhs quota thats used multiple times of:

"It was more cunning and powerful than the lion and therefore it killed off or drove the lion away from the areas it occupied"
http://www.google.com/search?q=+It+was+more+cunning+and+more+powerful+then+the+lion+therefore+it+killed+or+drove+offf+or++away+from+the+areas+it+occupie&tbm=bks&tbo=1

You would think some of these native to indias home lands would be logical, mathematical, and reasonable upon the simples't things, but no. Tigers hide out in the jungle, they use thick vegatation to remain hidden, while lions are proud beast that fears no predatorial animal in their full capacity of their pride, so out in the open is where they remain, it is evident in the abundentcy of photos we see both in, by looking at the geography, what would be easier to shoot even if the lion was roaming alone:


Lions open grounds:



Tigers thick dense jungle:



You can barely even see the tiger when he's right in front of you, which his stripes blends into the thick vegataion of jungle surroundings, yet the lion is spoted so easy because he chooses to live in the open, look at the lion picture again, you still would be able to see the lion even if he was far past the trees miles away, while the tiger would lose a hunter in the jungle for less then a few yards worth.


Common-----Sense



It would be hard pressed for a hunter to shoot a tiger, since he would have to trek through miles of thick bush and jungle, he could possibly stray pass hundreds of unseen'd tigers who wish to remain un-seen through trees, bushes, caves and chasims of jungle teritory, while for lions you can spot a whole pride from miles away and kill them with ease if you have a gun, spear and or group on a elephant or jeep, being in general they are more accustomed in the open and wont run. For the amount of time it takes to find one either or, to killing them there and then, you could kill hundreds of lions for every one tiger. This is why lions almost have gone extinct in india by the british, indians and others who were there to gain their fame and glory of killing earths champion of predators...not individual tigers who can barley hold his ground with a single lioness.

Kesri even states his own consenses and eludes a verdict upon a deceptive concept, he also stated that the lion is the braver of the two, the more willing to stick around to finish the fight, but then trys to pull in a win for the tiger by saying under his own observation, he's seen, 3 occaisons tigers beat lions (which he set up):



Hah? So he counts a win, as if a tiger lashing out (trying to defend himself) is suppose to equate to a tiger killing multiple lions? Sounds like he was just trying to rival what Jam saheb said, that on four occaisons lions won, who knows they were probably killed, unlike Singhs, we know for a fact his wern't killed, they were just minor disputes. It throws into question how inconsistant his opinions are, since how can one have all 4 win, and the other all win as well? The statement, content and substance emits that it wasn't even a fight, with all the video proof we have now days, its exactly like:

1.) The Big Cage movie (Clyde beatty) the tiger running all the time while trying to defend himself.

2.) Roar the movie (Tippi hedren) lions chased a tiger up a stump and the tiger lashed out and did nothing.

3.) Everland park wild life show (Korea) countless of tigers weak swipe, miss, tire themselves out then get dominated with earth shattering slams from the lion.

4.) Gir forest video (Castle films) the tiger swipes leads to exauhsting itself out and the tiger collapsed.

5.) Jungle jim movie  the lion chases and harasses the tiger through out the whole fight, while the tiger throws senseless swipes that adds up to nothing.


All have a similar trend, a consistancy of substance and content...these are all bouts that protain to one on ones, yet in the wild it will eventually have tigers facing huge odds of multiple lions, yet we have people who actually have more self observation an experince than singh (a zoo keeper and hunter), ullas who quoted him (student level scientist) and the unknowns who claims tigers drove out lions from india, we have native indian experts sources and quotas from:

-Damoo dhotre (Trainer/Tamer)
-Kailash sahnkala (Zoologist/Natrualist)
-Shri Sir Ranjitsinhji Vibhaji Maharaha Jam saheb (eye witness to 4 occaisons)
-Nilakanta. (M.A Historian)
-Shah jahan (eye witness)
-A Maharaja prince of india (Eye witness on 1 account)
-The Ballou indian magazine (documented 4 occaisons)
-Jamnagar zoo (1 account)
-German zoologist (wild account in velar india)
-The Gir forest fight by castle films (3 vs 3)
-Calcutta zoo (2 accounts)
-Agartala zoo (1 account)
-The Anwar i suhali (historical artifacts)
-Ramayana and Mahabharata (historical records)
-Nandan Kanan animal park' (1 account)
-Bhim Singh (eye witness)
-Sujit Mukherjee (Natrualist indias history)

All which has had the asiatic lion either hold his ground or defeat and kill the benagl tiger either in indias captivity, pit-fights or indias wilderness...So where in their minds do they think a socioty of lions who are in small through large groups are gonna be killed off and or drove off from individual tigers, who are only slightly heavier on average by not even 60 lbs, yet asiatic lions can rival and sometimes exceptionals exceed (680 lbs) the common bengals weight (420 lbs), yet the tiger is shorter in height, has less fighting experince then the lion, a inferior fighting tactics of weaker flurrys, less willing and less aggresive to be the usual finisher twards formidable foes as we covered tigers lose to leopards and donkeys, who lions in the same occaison had won, they would need hundreds of upon thousands of occaisions (on hand) to show right off the back, (death accounts) that tigers are responsible of killing or driving out lions from india, they dont...all the records combined of tigers killing lions through out all of history is less then 20 in chronological order, not even 1 in the wild where the lions were raised through out the wilderness of india...and the list consist of majority of the accounts being male tigers killing female lions and lion cubs/juvis, while the male lions that lost has 99% of them in bad condition, two on ones, captive vs wild, amsbush, teeth and claws blunted and decayed, distracted and helped by trainers. Its almost pathetic how little the yuku team has when viewed in chronological order and catagorie form, after all we are looking at only 1 fairly fought fight where the tiger has killed a male lion? One occaison doesnt speak of a entire speices capabilitys and statistics, espeacially when the opposing factors has the lion came off the victor in more than a 100 documented cases.


People who actually know a thing or two on subject are entirely different, people with actual knowledge of lions and tigers from Biblical records, Historical natrual resources, Direct observations through owning and trainging them, and even Phsycological implications of there social interactions through eco and geo, of lions and tigers, know that the lions unity would spell death for any sub-speices of tiger, no matter how small or big, powerful or cunning, he will fall to the superiorty of the lions spartan prowess:



~Professor of philosophy at the Graduate School of Core Ethics and Frontier Sciences, Ritsumeikan University, Kyoto
http://ineteconomics.org/conference/hongkong/paul-dumouchel

“Quite frequently, we are treated to the following anecdote, about the lives of certain animals in captivity. It is said that if lions and tigers are put in the same cage, the lions progressively elimenates all the tigers even though individual tigers are much stronger and more powerful than individual lions. The reason  for this is when a lion and a tiger come in to conflict, all the lions in the cage come to the aid of their fellow, where as the other tigers yawn and scratch themselves as the fight goes on. A tiger reacts only when directly threatened. Lions on the contuary act as if all the lions in the cage were targeted by what effects anyone of them.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=pgjHAeho0P0C&pg=PA4&dq=struggle+between+a+lion+and+a+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CqqAUc_5B4idiALm5oCYBA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAQ


So it is clear that even if you have a individual tiger more powerful than a individual lion, meaning if the tiger is older, larger in size and more heavier... smaller and younger lions can still kill a much bigger and older tiger, because they work as a single impenetrable unit, as the spartans did, and as the historical accounts has proven.


Heres more solid proof that Unity...will be the main factor in disputing any that says the lion was droven out of india by individual tigers:


{2006}

Liberec (Czech pronunciation: German: Reichenberg) is a city in the Czech Republic. Located on the Lusatian Neisse and surrounded by the Jizera Mountains and Kozákov Ridge: lions kill siberian white tigress in leberic czech zoo.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2009-11-19-Czech-Republic_N.htm


Yuku is infamous for consealing the whole truth, they only show one part, yet leave out the things that aid the lions behalf, heres a book that they constantly quote, yet leaves out the essentials upon the specific topic:

Five lions will defeat five tigers because the lions fight as a team and the tigers do not. The five lions take on one tiger at a time the Romans with legendary strength in organization and coordination, were the lions in a lengthy series of battles against a specific tribes
http://www.google.com/search?q=Five+lions+will+defeat+five+tigers+because+the+lions+fight+as+a+team+and+the+tigers+do+not.+The+five+lions+take+on+one+tiger+at+a+time+the+romans+with+legendary+strength+in+organization+and+coordination&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


Ill-fated Greece! by hands like these to fall!
To bear, from age to age, such heartless thrall!
To drop from thy proud pinnacle of fame,
And live—with nothing left thee but a name.
Hadst thou been faithful to thyself, thy pride
Not thus had perish'd, nor thy glories died:
Had thy proud sons united in their aim,
Thy jarring states made friend and foe the same,
The unletter'd hordes who sunk thee to a slave,
Had only reach'd (hy fields to find a grave.

Alas! thine iron phalanx discord broke,—
Thy jealousies prepar'd for thee the yoke—
So the strong herd of Elephants that rove
In friendly bands through India's sultry grove,
United scorn the wary hunter's spear,
Who marks the prize, but dares not venture near;
But when dispers'd, alone they tread the wood,
Each falls a victim, weltering in his blood.
E'en on those waves that round the city flow,
Thy sons in battle sought each other's woe:



Athenian heroes fought with Spartan there,
For ocean's empire, and both reap'd despair
So, while two tigers struggle for a prey,
The mightier lion bears the spoil away.
http://books.google.com/books?id=zP0EAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA354&dq=Byzantine+tigers+lions+fights&hl=en&sa=X&ei=H5mBUoisJ4eniAKBjYG4Aw&ved=0CB0Q6AEwBQ


So from romans all the way to the greeks, it was the same embodyment of unity, both people of greece/rome have studyed the lions combat in the arena and have adapted, transformed themselves and replicated the lions superior fighting ways to win:



There are no packs between lionsand men
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hf4IoxEUmHM


WE ARE LIONS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2tFW-Oiyf0


{1973}

Two lion cubs eat tiger:

A state of emergency was declared in Alexandria after a young circus tiger vanished from its cage, Newspapers reported that the tigers remains were found several hours later in the cage of two lion cubs.

http://www.google.com/search?q=+in+Alexandria+after+a+young+circus+tiger+vanished+from+its+cage.+Newspapers+reported+the+tiger%27s+remains+were+found+&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers



And yet...another, which from yuku only nip-tucks and conseal's the whole abstract leaving out facts:

In a brouhaha involving a dozen of each the result will be several dead tigers, as the lions proceed in a pack from one to the next, while the surviving tigers quietly observe. Only the trainer weeps at the result, because tigers, who are so nervous...
http://www.google.com/search?q=+a+dozen+of+each+the+result+will+be+several+dead+tigers%2C+as+the+lions+proceed+in+a+pack+from+one+to+the+next+Only+the+trainer+weeps+at+the+result%2C+because+who+are+nervous+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=bks&tbo=1


More Tangible proof of the Phalanx

{1957}

3 lions kills tiger
http://www.google.com/search?q=Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+Tiger+Wounded+By+Lions+Dies+.+BIRMINGHAM+A+tiger+that-+was+attacked+by+three+lions+died+of+its+wounds+yesterday&safe=off&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=odBrUfmlBKaP2gXoroDgCA&sa=N&btnG=Search


A SINGLE IMPENATRABLE UNIT

King leonidus:

Your father should have taught you how our Phalanx works. We fight...as a single, impenetrable unit.

That is the source of our strength.

Each Spartan protects the man to his left...from thigh to neck with his shield. A single weak spot and the phalanx shatters.





And another, if somehow it needs to be told multiple times from multiple sources to some individuals like the yuku team who actually quoted this exact book, but left this part out:

But the indian guide says: In the real world if they were some-how in the same range, there is no dought that lions would gain the predatory ninche. The tiger is mostly a solitary animal, and a lion hunts in prides. There is no dought that lions would drive tigers from the ninche at the top of the food chain.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-yA2qKGfqocC&pg=PA91&dq=lion+tiger+fight+advantage&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bsJTUtnbGumSiAKBtoGoCQ&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAQ


{1947}
Clyde beatty 2 lions kill tiger named toona 1947
http://books.google.com/books?id=fiAEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA54&dq=lion+kills+tiger+clyde+beatty&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5dmeUPWYBKjkiwL5moGgCA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA


More disputing... that has no base evidence, no acounts, no historians:

Jack Denton Scott, "Speaking Wildly", William Morrow & Company, Inc. New York, 1966 "Often larger and stronger than the lion, the tiger is credited with driving it from India, …" (p. 256)


Even in the art alone they show what the scenario would look like, multiple lions on a single tiger, we all know from the historical records what happens as the outcome:

India~Lions 2 v 1= Outcome? As above an bottom gestures, run or die:




We know that:

-Lions out-number tigers in the wild
-There is an abundencty of tangible proof that disputes (Opinions)
-Lions have a sense of brother hood in fighting even without family relations.
-Some of the greatest warriors to walk the earth has learned their superior fighting ways from the lion.
-Lions in india were hunted to near extinction by man.
-There isn't a single occaison of a tiger killing a wild lion in the wilderness yet.
-Most native authoritys with credentials in india belive even a single asiatic lion is more than a match for a bengal tiger.

PHYSIOLOGY ADVANTAGES






(Black maned lion, the smaller of the Tawny and Grey maned lion at 600-660 lbs)
http://books.google.com/books?id=LDVKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA251&lpg=PA251&dq=El+Zarzouri+lion&source=bl&ots=5BaPoruxfB&sig=gvFj5DZBpJk12LUO9acKs5pGZ_A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9yeUUpOzHM7qoASdyoLQDA&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBQ


John Varty:



"The manes on the male lions make them look larger and more fearsome. They protect the neck from blows from the opponent.

http://www.tigercanyons.co.za/newsletters68.htm


Dereck Jouberts:


http://www.nationalgeographic.com/explorers/bios/jouberts/

After spending some 25 000 hours studying lions in Botswana I have come across just three maneless lions, so they are as rare as David Featherbe records in the latest issue of New Scientist to arrive at our camp in Botswana (In Brief, 24 February, p 8).

When speculating about why male lions have manes you have left out the most important reason. When male lions attack each other they mostly rear up on their hind legs and slap out at each other's heads and necks. The neck and throat are vulnerable and a full-bodied mane acts as protection against blows.

Remember that it is not necessary and often not desirable in nature for a conflict to end in the death of the vanquished, so much of this fighting is for display, with the mane giving protection, and many of these battles for territory are won on psychological...
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15020307.000-letters--by-any-other-mane.html

(Examples)

Lion and tiger Ukraine / Kiev Musienko Vladislav

{2010}
Even though we cant see the lions whole body and the fact that he tiger is side ways he should have looked bigger because the lion is verticle making him look slimmer, still the lion looks just about 2x bigger:


http://photo.unian.net/eng/themes/4014/?fp=280

Eloise Berchtold

{1966}
You can see the lions body is more roubust and the mid section is a lot larger and bigger than the tigers even though the lions mane is small indicating hes not fully grown yet:

http://bucklesw.blogspot.com/2006_04_11_archive.html



EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION


(Aggression and Boldness)

We'll find out which beast has more Valour, Courage, willingness to fight and Gamenss.


You know... when you have Pride and dignity and courage, you face your opponent head on, fairly, matching him beknownst and aware, as people learned from animal trainer Roman proske:



"We also found that lions will attack their prey from the front while tigers are like the house cat waiting their chance and attacking at the unexpected moment."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Roman+proske+We+ateo+found+that+lions+will+attack+their+prey+from+the+front+while+tigers+are+like+the+house+cat&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

Same as Louis roth:



Nine times out of ten a lion will roar a warning before it attacks you"
http://www.google.com/search?q=nine+times+out+of+ten+a+lion+will+roar+a+warn-+ing+before+it+attacks+you+louis+roth+&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers

and Jim murray's interview with ringlings circus trainer Charly:

Charly Baumann


"Lions take less bluffing than a tiger. In the parlance of the fight game, a tiger has a little dog in him. But a lion will accept you as master once you have faced him down. A Tiger never accepts you as anything but a potential snack. A tiger will hit on the break, gouge thumb. He would attack a sleeping man. A lion will at least roar first."

http://www.google.com/search?q=Lions+take+less+bluffing+than+a+tiger+of+the+fight+game+He+would+attack+a+sleeping+man.+A+lion+will+at+least+roar+first&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N



The lion is a bit bigger because of his mane," says Pat, "but the tiger is almost the same size...the male lion will fight anything, anytime, any where without provocation.

~Milwaukee Sentinel - Feb 17, 1958
http://www.google.com/search?q=Pat+Anthony%2C+the+animal+trainer%2C+has+this+to+say+about+his+performing+animals%3A+A+lion+will+fight+anything%2C+anytime%2C+any+where+without+provocation.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=LNF2UqXzEIb8igKan4CwDg&sa=N

Another Indian sportsman tells us, that the lion, though not so swift as the tiger, is generally stronger and more courageous.
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&tbo=1&q=Another+Indian+sportsman-%5D-+tells+us%2C+that+the+lion%2C+though+not+so+swift+as+the+tiger%2C+is+generally+stronger+and+more+courageous.


Even in Kesri's inconsistantcys which we previously coverd two post behind, he goes on to contradict major advantages of the tiger with even better attributes the lion surpasses in which protains directly to fighting and would determine a usual leverage:



http://www.oldindianphotos.in/2010/06/kesri-singh-thakur-of-piploda-1903.html

“As a normal rule I should expect a lion to be more open and bold than a tiger...“The lions always attacked first”
http://books.google.com/books?id=kZmnqpT6bycC&pg=PA122&dq=Keshari++singh+The+lion+is+more+bold&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R3BaUfp-kOuKAqfogegB&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ

As for Kesri's statement, that would almost solidify the lions position in india, since he would have the entire pride that as he mentions "is bolder and will attack first" so a coalition will be more determined to opprehend, chase down, and hunt/kill a tiger if they see him as a direct threat via territorial clash. And goes even for one on one bouts, the aggressor (the lion) will strike first, which could lead to a lucky punch/quick kill, as the one who hits first already has the advantages of Ko'ing their opponent:




Clyde beatty:

”They’re afraid of the lions. Want no part of them”
http://www.thecircusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Cole-Bros-31.jpg


HISTORICAL CONSENSES


Abraham Cowley:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Cowley

Slaughter shall wear out these, new weapons get, And death in triumph on thy darts shall sit. When Judah's lion starts up to his prey. The beasts shall hang their ears, and jreep away; When he lies down, the woods shall silence keep, And dreadful tigers tremble at his sleep.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=yxhEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA187&dq=Abraham+Cowley+lion+tiger&hl=en&sa=X&ei=J6aTUqPRF5PaoASux4DYAQ&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBw


Digging deeper in why all majority of the past poets have recorded the tiger is fearful of the lion, we must study their sociality a bit more and see how they develop their core characters:


Pride


We all know that the the word pride for lions is there social group name, such as a school of fish, a hyena clan, a colonie of ants, a pack of wolves and a herd of buffalo, but there is a more deeper meaning to his title given, the lion is the only existing Panthera that lives in social groups, and with this unique evolutionary trait, the lion has embody’d something entirely new and different from all other cats, which is the actual defining of the word Pride. A asset in gaining more fighting mentality through emotion and mental estate is being confounded and has been discoverd by the lion, he has a title such as Gaurdian, Father, Protector, Mentor and Teacher, which bestows responsibility, worrying, dread, bravery, courage all which something to be proud of in the end, cultivated out of (Pride);. as is the verdict/outcome of experincing these traits/emotions, this will give the lion the extra edge in going alot further mentally in a fight for he will have something worth dying for, his Pride...he will push the fight much harder, he will have more reason and more.... willpower.


Lets look what the Dictionary says on the word Pride:


Definition of Pride

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4.
a. A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b. The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pride

The Cubs


The cubs will obtain something no living panthera gets and learns, (A New Element) from the Male lion :

* Appreciation
* Respect
* Nobility
* Honor
* Love
* Gameness
* Loyalty
* Friend-ship
* Forgiveness
* Fighting experince

The cubs will pick up on a revolutionary skill the existing pantheras such as leopards, jaguars, tigers ect, will never grasp; the lion cubs will have someone to look up to, a Idle, a Father, a Role-model and a Hero, they will achive a new level of hierarcy and knowledge of respect, the lion cubs will learn from watching the male lions fight, each time absorbing information learing how to be more effective in battle, gaining new fighting stradegies, moves/stances, tacitics, exploits weaknesses, what doesn’t work and what does work in a fight, The lion like spartans, teached their sons the arts of combat and war:

.



The notion of the tiger is like Rambo, Bruce lee, ect is not entitled to the tiger, since the tigers teacher/father has no take/accord in his life, the male tiger abondins the femlae and cubs, and the mother/tigress is the teacher in showing the cubs how to hunt, no fighting attributes is taught to the tigers other then the cubs experimenting wrestling on there own making things up on the fly, while lions have there Fathers, Uncles, Granpas, and Older brothers to learn from, comparing the tiger to any human idle in the arts of combat is impossible; since humans are the masters of sociality, gyms, dogos, classes, ect all are forms of social traits…

If it wern't for the male lion sticking around the lions would have 1/10th the fighting experince and knowledge, the males are the Key, the Guides and the blue prints in sharing there knowledge and funneling there experince in fighting to the next generation, going back to ‘The greats'....

Bruce lee was taught by his mentor and master Ip man:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man

Mike Tyson was guided by his trainer Cus D’amato:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cus_D'Amato

And even Rambo had special forces bestow there knowledge into him:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Trautman


You see, all the greats have become what they are from a consistancy of sociality, the same way the lion has a mentor, master, trainer, teacher and guide to learn from, the tiger is more of a hobo, a drifter, a non-social entity and ninja of the wild.

The lions mentality will always have plots and goals to reach wheather if its trying to protect his pride/family from other predators and rivals, or trying to fill in his mentors shoes, the lion will have ambition, goals, a legacy to up-hold, it is embeded in their Dna, they are war-like animals, the closes't things to humans, and the second in line to rule after us as speices of conflict. The lion will have a huge edge mentally, since the more one is exposed to fighting the more one adapts to it, learns its ways and perfects it, to be the best you have to be consistant at it.

The Pride is no easy life, as most fanatics claim from yuku, that lions only play, nothing is learned or gained, that entirely false, some fights break out randomly in prides and some cubs are killed by there own parents:




http://forums.canadiancontent.net/science-environment/58799-astonishing-pics-show-lion-cub.html

The lion has one of the toughest lives to live, they are constantly kept game even in there own pride, alone a tiger will grasp nothing in the world of fighting, hunting and fighting is two different things, physically, mentally and emotionally many things will par-take in fighting, and the lion for some reason moved away from his genus and went 10 steps foward, the male lion is just as protective as the female if not more.

The male lion also:

+ Provides some of the food
+ Disiplines and keeps the pride obident
+ Teaches higher morals and lessons of safty and protection

http://www.gilladventures.com/blog/2011/02/04/foto-phaves-schotia-safari/



In which in terms, will have a positive reinforcement both ways, a take and give scenario, allowing not only exposer to more fighting in general, but to learn how to tolerate it and balance it out, unlike the tiger whos basically goes by the authority of... the hell with every body I'm not sharing, dont come by me, if I see you I will attack an kill you type of attitude (Cunning), also qualitys that can relate to stingy, stubborn, ignorant and afraid of confrintation on basic levels. How many people watch UFC and say, the fighters are cunning? None. The lion emotionally, and mentally is well tied to being a calm and assertive fighter, he is after all submerged in it weekly being social, while the tiger only fights no more than a hand full of times in his entire life.


HISTORICAL ARTIFACTS


INDIA



JAPAN/CHINA

http://images2.bonhams.com/image?src=Images/live/2007-09/20/7510731-1-1.jpg&tmp=web300&top=0.000000&left=0.000000&right=1.000000&bottom=1.000000&dt=zoom_image

AMERICA




HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS


It seems the little records of the tiger killing the lion, is of similarities to experts opinions, anecdotes and historical consistancy's, that the tiger does not like to fight a fair fight and will kill other animals when they are in their weakes't state:

Tragically, the lioness Savannah, as she was recovering from the drug, was attacked by the male tiger Seatao. Previously, Seatao had greeted the lioness with no aggression, then as she began to walk around the boma, he sensed that she was weak from the darting and he attacked her, knocking her down. With 1000 lbs per square inch jaw power, he pushed the 5 inch canines deep into her throat. Although she survived the night, she succumbed to massive internal bleeding.


(Seatao stalking Savannah)



(Seconds after this picture was taken, Seatao attacked Savannah)



http://www.jvbigcats.co.za/newsletters41.htm


Yet even by ambush, the lion (Male) would be hard to pounce from behind on:

“The lion is the king of among beasts in other ways than in looks. I once put a big tiger in a cage with a lion, chaining the lion but giving him slack enough to stand up and turn around. It was a night parade and the red fire was burned on the top of my wagon and the animals became greatly excited. The tiger pounced on the lion but I stopped the battle with the stool upon which I had been setting. Later the fight was renewed, the lion knocking the tiger down five times.”

~Sunday Vindicator - Nov 21, 1915
http://www.google.com/search?q=rampant+battle++standing+on+all+fours+appeared+to+be+ten+feet+high+was+renewed%2C+the+lion+knocking+the+tiger+down+five+times++fire+dead&ie=ISO-8859-1&tbs=nws%3A1%2Car%3A1&source=newspapers



We know that:

-Ambush is how the tiger hunts & fights, while Up and up is how the lion hunts & fights
-The lion has more Bravery, Courage, Valour, Nobility.
-The tiger is more rutheless, cunning and sneaky.
-The algerian lion can be just as heavy as the record breaking siberian tigers in the wild.
-The tiger is more vulnerable to the throat than the lion who has a protecting factor.
-The title of King must be achived in more than numerous trials and tribulations.

Hey D,

Cool to hear from you again, hows it been, hows the gang? I can't read the site since my safari crashed, this explorer can only read an open up cerain sites...but if you like, you can post the newer ones here, Red clay the admin is fine with abundent an large post.

Did you all find any new accounts too?

Wow, incredible stuff D,

Look at that lions mane, whoa...thats a huge protecting factor, even the people who favored the tiger an has slight credentials of being knowedge-able about both states the lions mane comes in handy, as for who strikes harder.


[size=24]EXPERTS OPINIONS UPON OBSERVATION

(Who hits harder?)

Samuel Baker:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Baker

The head and neck are larger, although, when boiled and cleaned, the skull does not exceed in size that of an ordinary tiger. It may be safely stated that a lion which measures 9 ft. 8 inches in length would weigh heavier than a tiger of the same dimensions. I have already described that the tiger when springing to the attack does not strike a crushing blow, but merely seizes with its claws. A lion, on the contrary, strikes with terrible strength, at the same time that it fixes its claws upon its victim. The force of this blow is terrific, and many a man has been killed outright as though struck with a sledge-hammer.
http://books.google.com/books?id=lDUtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA178&dq=baker+lion+tiger+strikes&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KyCYUsviBoTloASW_ICIDg&ved=0CBcQ6AewAg

The tiger does not, like the lion. strike a heavy blow with his paw.
~Chicago Tribune - Jan 4, 1905
http://www.google.com/search?q=The+tiger+does+not%2C+like+the+lion.+strike+a+heavy+blow+with+his+paw.&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N

PORTUGESE/SPANISH

Looks to have gaven the lion a point for the harder striker:


Clyde beatty:





[size=24]HISTORICAL CONSENSES


ROME

I have only found a few more sources protaining to the romans, so the list is only slightly greater, but we both remember Pckts rants about dis-crediting people like martin seyers, Ken spiro and others, saying any one can say an make up things. lol So I dug up their credentials and even I was amazed, they would be considered the most highest authoritys (At-least historically speaking).

MASTERS DEGREE

A master's degree is an academic degree granted to individuals who have undergone study demonstrating a mastery or high-order overview of a specific field of study or area of professional practice.[1> Within the area studied, graduates are posited to possess advanced knowledge of a specialized body of theoretical and applied topics; high order skills in analysis, critical evaluation or professional application; and the ability to solve complex problems and think rigorously and independently. The degree is awarded upon graduation from a university
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master's_degree

Lets look at their credentials now:

- Historian Ken Spiro (M.A In History from The Vermont College of Norwich University)
- Historian Margaret George (University with a B.A. and Stanford University with an M.A)
- Historian and Archaeologist (Ph.D of Classical Archaeology, Egyptologym at Vienna University)
- Professor Thomas Gray (Historian at Cambridge University.)
- Professor Adolph Hausrath theologian (Privatdozent P.D German universities)
- Theologian Edward beecher (Graduated in Yale college in 1822)
- Charles Scribner's Sons (American writing company dates back to 1821)
- Museums and Their Development (Psychology Press, 1656)
- Native to the holy roman empire, Johan Wenzel Peter (Painting/Root artifact)
- Native to the holy roman empire Cicero
- Native to the holy roman empire, Carl Borromäus Andreas Ruthart (Painting/Root artifact)
- Native to rome Pietro Aquila (Royal Emperyium engraving/Root artifact)
- Visitor to rome Théodore Géricaul: (Painting/Root artifact)
- Visitor to rome HECHT Joezef Polish: (Painting/root artifact)
- Visitor to rome Richard westall: (Engraving/root artifact)
- Roman Royal Athena (Belt buckle/Root artifact)
- Mosiac in the house of faun (Pompeii A.D)
- Mosaic in the house of caecilius jucundus (Pompei A.D)
- Two Marbel stone peices (Circa 1700 & the other 1920)
- Greek statue (Artifact)
- Phaedrus (written abstracts
- Plato's dialogues
- Latin writer Aesop
- Eye Witness, Mr. Bolton (veorna 1834)
- Eye witness Trainer Kose (Turin italy)
-Eye witness, Rudolf kludsky to several occaisons (Turin italy)


I’ll get the links in them later.

[size=24]HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS

LION DEFEATS/SUBDUES TIGER IN 1 ON 1 COMBAT

This contest being finished a royal tiger of unsual strength and beauty was brought forth. He was called Ahriman, after the Prince of Darkness. The tigers advesary was an immense lion called ormuz, after the price of light. A living lamb was cast down before the two, but this was amore than lindagull could endure. She gave a sign and the trembling little creature was snatched away; and in its stead one of the dead dogs was cast before the wild animals.

The lion was hungary and immediately rushed upon the prey, The tiger Jealous by nature, also darted forward furiously, eager to deprive the lion and to get the prey himself. This was the most terrible contest of all. The air echoed the dreadful roaring of the angry beasts, the sand was thrown up by their paws and colored red with their blood.

They fell over each other, they seperated, they rushed against each other again. All the spectators trembled, entranced. Long was the strife undecided, but the tiger ahriman finally succumbed and Ormuz was led from the arena in triumph.

~Translated from Norweigon & Scandanavian by ~Emilie Poulsson
http://books.google.com/books?id=LyrPlD7n-OYC&pg=PT35&dq=lions+fought+tiger+arabs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pOOBUtGdIcSYiAK-1YGICA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwBg

Emilie was known for childrens books, but the fact that this book was translated by her and not written holds merits. (More will be looked into it later for its credability)

(Proof showing just how harder the lion hits)






As goes for th chinese, yeah...they shine more of a light than anything pckts the liar brought, since they are only being taken out of context and not directly comparing what both are capable of doing to the other, its just cultural idenity, even leopards are more cunning, faster and have high statuses being one of the most powerful predators, doesn't mean providing multiple links of people saying it makes the leopard the better fighter and be able to kill the lion more than vice versa.

The experts you provided are awesome too, will be giving it a read later, an if you'd like you can tell some of the other nutruels to come here too, to share any new info, or just dicuss, that way you dont have to worry about things being constantly erased and chastized by Perault, P tigris and the rest of the bias lion haters, I got the credentials of what I posted just now about the historians, becuase I am finally gonna take a break from this topic, even though I said that last time lol But yeah, I jotted it down that way, when I'm gone if the tiger fanatics wanna try an discredit those historians ect everyone can see just how reliable the content is. But when I come back, I will by that time have a newer computer and then its gonna be, on like Donkey kong. lol

But keep up the good work bro, I think you are surpassing alot of the older posters in alot of credible stuff brought to the table, that being I still think. Leofwin and Boldchamp are still one of the best, after all...look at most of the scans links...they have bold champ and leofwins names on them. lol But we all have been putting in some valuable things lately, and later I think we can make it conclusive....if we can double it maybe...triple all the content in its own catagories, then it will be unanymous...as for now, I'm fine with keeping it 50/50.

K bro...Alohas ^_^

Wholey shit, look at that gif...never seen tigers fight like that an have that type of power, the people who say the tiger is a better fighter just because of his flurrys using two paws, obviously doesn't know Iron Mike. Yup, by now we all know the physiology of lions are built much taller, broader, stronger and more robust, I didn't even know by that much, 5.5 inches is the gold standard, an who knows...smith could have been comparing bengals to africans, not the rest of the tiger sub-species such as malay, javan, bali, sumatran, asiatic ect.

Mass is one thing, but everybody likes height more, so I would think in the cat world being on all fours, the lion must be extremely inposing to the tiger...I read in too much of what Prathap them said about the largest tigers are taller than the largest lions, thats B.S, bengals already are at 3 ft. 3 in; even asiatic lions are confortable at 3 ft. 11 in; so comparing smallest to smallest (Bali) vs (Asiatic) the lion probably is over a foot taller, and largest to largest I dont think that a tiger can have that much of a huge spike from near 3; to more than 5 all of a sudden, there are numerous 5 feet tall lions mentioned, and many lions I've seen like simba at colchester zoo proves it.

an Yeah, I agree with you, in fact one of your newer experts mentioned the lions smashing hits on W.A.E, while the tigers rapid flurrys, when you add up altogether who lands more of those hits gif wise and experts who say it, the difference is significant, thats also why maybe alot of te artifacts show the tiger in a prostrate position, certainly the tiger couldn't replicate it as much or at all. It be good for me on that break, because once I get another Computer at that time, I can get back to emailing, digging through different newspaper archives, most of the ones I showed can be easily gotton, they usually show (Get this newspaper) on the right side of the page, and you can pay 2 bucks or so to get a Pdf if you sign up for a month at 9 bucks you can download as much as you want in that time period, so I'll be doing that later. Like I said, in my absence you can invite kaos, lion claws, bold, leo them here to keep you company...Red clay here is pretty cool...and you will atleast have a peice of mind away from the fanatics on yuku.

To be honest, when I look at what we have, on the bigger scale we don't have all that much, we've only been dabbling in the english language, that means their is only gona be a limited supply of people who translated their historical significance to english, so later I can look in other places and contact some real deal people with credentials. We have the basics in quanity and its not worth disccusing an trying to prove minor details like a small quota that has no substance is suppose to be taken into account as the holy grail like pckts and p tigris them do discussing their 1,000's of lies and repeats like they have the answer going on 9 years now...pathetic...and its a waste of time, since in one post I can exploit and expose all of their B.S lies...while you an I could be finding more in that time laps after all, you and I were basically the newer members of the yuku, we haven't been on this subject 1/10th the amount of time they have, an we already accumilated 10x more than them... later...we will get some scholar level amounts, altogether if snipped out, organized and formated in neatly, the data combine with what I got on the team authroity forum could push maybe 4 pages worth, if they are all cramed in straight to the point... thats nothing, I've seen some historical blogs on certain cultures like the romans, Indians an chinese go on forever, like 300 pages worth, later when that computer comes in...I'm sure we could broadin and magnify the quality and quanity 3x fold. Theres no sense in me picking up the scraps little by little, I'm looking for pay dirt to lead me to that glory pot of gold lol so its better off if I be paitient, and bide my time till we get there.

Belive me, we'll get there. So keep up the good work...and I'll catch you laters.

In due time, I just un-covered 2 major things:

1.) That the Baroda account is probably a fake since its similaritys are too matching to a writer that managed to write numerous occaisons of animal fights like his Gorilla and lion fight:


I don’t know how these storys got onto to newspaper articles, but they managed to be spread on multiple braches...

http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary+lion+gorilla+Star.%29+In+gloomy+recesses+of+the+primeval+forests+still+to+be+found+In+Central+Africa+there&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


Yet you know me, I am a keen observer of (Chronology) that story was already written on multiple books.


Once a Week by: Eneas Sweetland Dallas Bradbury & Evans, 1863

[colo=red]Heres the missing part the newspaper stations were missing:

I paused in my efforts to extricate myself, and listened. Again and again my name was called loudly, distinctly, and earnestly.

"John, John!" It was the voice of my wife whom I had left safely at home in London.

"John, John! Wake up, will you? You've got the nightmare, and have fallen out of bed! John, John, do get up, dear! You've dragged all the bedclothes down on the floor with you. You've rolled yourself up in them so tightly that I can't get you out. You'll be smothered if you don't wake up. Oh dear! oh dear me 1 Wake up, you great stupid, do!"

"Bless my soul!" said I. "How fortunate— how curious it is, too, that you should have come to my rescue so opportunely. It was very kind of you, and so courageous besides! When did you arrive out 1—Do you know I was wondering, just as I was tumbling into this horrid pit, why the gorilla's wife didn't come to his assistance. You know she might have done it easily and safely enough, for the lion wouldn't have let go his hold, and if she had sprung on his back she might have enabled her husband to freshen his grip. They might have quickly strangled him between them. Is it not cu—"

"My goodness gracious me!" said my wife, interrupting me. '' What stuff and nonsense are

you talking? Lions and gorillas !
http://books.google.com/books?id=A_VMAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&dq=gorilla+lion+Oh,+do+wake+up!+You've+got+the+nightmare,+and+fallen+out+of+bed!&hl=en&sa=X&ei=LZ2aUtSEEsz0oATO_oDQDw&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA



lol, it was all a dream, and the story is a fake, some mook probably cut it out and reported it as a real event, that’s why multiple newspaper acrhcives unbeknownst printed their copy and look at the end, nonsense XD XD Isint that the word Pckts uses like a hundred times a day? Karma lol.

-The head line Extraodinary combat is way to similar to the baroda and gorilla fight.
-The content, penmenship and writing style is again too similar.
-The years they came out are way to close to be another writer.


LION AGAINST TIGER An Extraordinary Combat In Which The King Of Beasts

http://www.google.com/search?q=extraordinary%20vanquished%20A%20fairly%20fought%20battle%20between%20lion%20and%20tiger,%20however&spell=1&ie=UTF-8&spell=1&hl=en&tbs=ar%3A1&tbm=nws&ei=itkQUcikOLGxigLvvIGoCg&sa=N


This writer also has a account where a horse defeats a tiger, same writing style, same content in india, a monarch ruler, same type of hard-boiled substance, and exact same year as the baroda account artcile. Baroda is a fake. That would mean even less fights have been recorded through out history of tigers defeating lions, and they lost their most valuable one their only fairly fought fight with a male lion...sad. I'll just dig through the book archives later an I know I'll find a older book on that occaisons than the newspaper articles. And that will be the end of it.



2.) I Did however find a valuable, reliable account of a tiger beating a lion, that no one on yuku has ever presented, and I'm not going to share it...muwha ha ha, muuwaha ha ha haa, that goes to show how Karma plays a role in life, how could I have found it so fast, when the whole tiger supporting team of over 8 members on yuku like Prathap, Perault, Peter, P tigris, Pckts ect ect all members for over 7 years, who constantly repeat the same 14 accounts of poor substance and repeat them in over 300 repeated different sources and not find what I found? Karma...thats why. they are so fixiated and bias, they will hold on to lies which will ubstruct them of finding the truth. The only one I slightly trust at this point is Peter, and unless he wants to cut in a deal, a trade for a trade, I know he knows alot more accounts of lions killing tigers, he was the one to say one of the tigers in alan golds act was killed by his lions...but as usual he never provides any links to the lion victorys, yet he remains with his; a tiger can beat a lion 8/10 times. lol With what records?

Later I will cut a deal with him and provide a link and photo of the event...if he shares a account he never presented and halfly consealed himself...other wise he can go find it himself, and if they haven't found it by now going on over 7 years, I dought they ever will.

But it truely is hard pressed to find a fair fight of a tiger winning, or why would jackjacksonj repeat 2 main accounts over 160 times? Heck theres more than a 100 cases lions have killed tigers, an less than 20 of vice versa. Beatty alone has just about 50 in one crack. 15 from the roman arenas, 10 from india 4 From jam saheb, 4 from Rudolf kludsky, 3 from altoona mirror, probably 4 from dave hoover and theres your hundred right there, and thats not even the whole list, not to mention more should be looked into books on Terrell and Nelson, since they have seen many times lions beat tigers and had the biggest acts behind beatty, so I'm sure here and there will have some death an defeating accounts from those two alone.

But we'll see, I am 100% confident I can atleast double the amount of death accounts later, and the amount we have now to the understanding how the whole statistics in how they stack up, I'm sure I'll find a few more of tigers winning, but it wont be much atleast thats what the data already suggest. I know where to look, its just this computer is not compatible. So instead of picking up bread crubs, I'm gona wait to I hit the bakery. lol

We'll see.