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Ponce de Leon
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Topic: How to make Economics beneficial Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 22:21 |
Hey, I am taking an economics class and I want to strengthen my learning process by talking about what I have learned to friends, peers, and talking 2 u guys at A.E.
What I have learned (but was coinciously aware of before) was that there are three types of economies countries use. (The third is debated)
1. Centrally planned economies: Economy in which the gov. decides how economic resources will be allocated
2. Market Economy: An economy in which the decisions of households and firms interacting in markets allocate economic resources
Now the biggest example of a centrally planned economy has taken place between 1917 to 1991. That being the soviet union in which stores and shops were controlled by government officials. No goods or services were offered to satisfy the customers needs, so the standard of living for the average russian was low. This custom is still practiced in countries like N. Korea and Cuba.
The high-income democracies such as the U.S, Japan, and Western Europe rely on privatly owned firms and companies in which the consumer makes the decision of their wants and needs. In a market economy, the income of an individual is determined by the payment he recieves for what he has to sell. This income is determined on how much he/she gets based on the education, hours put to work, and how hard the worker does his/her job. And luck plays a role, good or bad, as it does elsewhere in life.
Earlier, the U.S interfered very little with the economy. But by the Depression and WW2, the government's role has been increasing to help benefit the poor, sick, and elderly. Some economists do not see the U.S, Japan, or the Western Euro countries as true market economies but as "mixed" Economies. That is, most results occur between buyers + sellers in markets but where the government plays a significant role in allocation of resources.
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pekau
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 00:54 |
In theory, there's absolutely nothing wrong about communism. Everyone are equal, classless and people work together with no personal agenda and gets the job done. There's no crime, there's no violence... people live in the perfect order set by merciful government.
The problem is people. Many, if not all, want to become superior than others. As Napoleon in animal farm once said, "Everyone's equal. It's just that some are more equal than others." Mankind's nature of jealousy and their sincere will to become better than others would prevent any classless utopia that Karl Marx predicted. Granted, some may be kind and sincere, but the problem is that much of world's population want wealth, freedom and popularity. Knowing that people would get same wage regardless of how much they work... it is natural for the workers to get lazy. So what if they produced 3 AK-47 instead of 7 as requested? They would still get the same wage. Who cares if I got 20% in the Chemistry 30? I would get same apartments with similar wage as the person who got 98%. It's not worth it...
But that does not make capitalism any better... in theory. Their idea is simple. You work harder, you contribute more, you make more accomplishment... who get the reward. If I worked hard to find a new invention that would solve the food shortage, I will become sickenly rich. If I get over 95% in History class, I would be most likely be chosen by the University of Seoul, compared to another kid who got 78%.
But now, the tension between the rich and poor would rise. People with no wealth, intelligence or other talents would live in a poor condition. They have the chance to become the elite, but the chance is highly unlikely. The elites would ensure that their kids get the best education, best food, best health care, etc. Picture the Industrial Revolution in Britain. The child labor, and the ruthless condition of workers... the society would become corrupted, and the tension between less fortunate and fortunate ones would wage war... poors would have quantity, and rich would have quality. Plus, the complete freedom of people in commerical trades could include harmful drugs, dangerous weapons, and other possible threats that could hurt and kill people.
But overall, capitalism should be better since it actually meets the goal. If I had a choice, I would have a balanced mixed economy... which often provides best choice.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 07:37 |
Ponce, what you write is more or less standard if we are only talking about modern economies.
However, "No goods or services were offered to satisfy the customers needs, so the standard of living for the average russian was low" is far from justified.
Health care provision in the Soviet Union (as it is today in Cuba) was far better than in any pure market economy. In particular the drag occasioned by insurance companies taking out their share of the business is/was far greater than the bureaucratic costs of a state system.
There are many other points:
Comparing the 'average' income is only part of the story. The difference between the richest and the poorest also has to be taken into account. In the Soviet Union (as the regrowth there of support for state control indicates) the poor were much more secure than in the US, being guaranteed housing, medical care and reasonable basic standards of living, none of which are/were guaranteed in the US.
Also one major reason for the comparative poverty of the Soviet Union is that it was poor to start with. You need to look at the change in standards over time, rather than across space.
Which do you prefer to have - many more doctors per thousand population but the doctors aren't too well paid, or far fewer doctors who are paid very well indeed?
Of course in theory if doctors are very well paid then more people - in a market economy - are supposed to become doctors, so their income drops to the point where it is barely worth while being a doctor.
It doesn't work that way anywhere in any contemporary so-called market economy because entry to the profession is largely controlled by the existing doctors. It isn't only the government that 'plans' and regulates the economy: it's corporations, cartels, workers' unions and all sorts of other formal and informal organisations.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 17:33 |
In economics there are not a lot of definite answers. Since economics is consided (by most) people to be a social science, hard questions, for instance, about healthcare or outsourcing are tested with hypothesis, theories, and models.
Now what you are saying gcle about the U.S.S.R does not seem reasonable, although I do not know much about the soviet economy as you do. So the question I can only ask is where do the soviets get the resources to supply everyone with healthcare?
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TheDiplomat
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 18:45 |
Pekau, I liked your post. I agree with your conclusions. What is more, I believe that Communist economic life is a wishful thinking.. It is an attemp against the life itself.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 16:49 |
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
In economics there are not a lot of definite answers. Since economics is consided (by most) people to be a social science, hard questions, for instance, about healthcare or outsourcing are tested with hypothesis, theories, and models.
Now what you are saying gcle about the U.S.S.R does not seem reasonable, although I do not know much about the soviet economy as you do. So the question I can only ask is where do the soviets get the resources to supply everyone with healthcare? |
An efficient education system, with priority given to producing doctors. What other resources do you need? Of course, concentrating on some things means cutting down on others, so the basic question in political economy (rather than theoretical or 'scientific' economics) is who gets to decide what to concentrate on?
It's also important to remember that there is virtually no such thing as a free market. Markets are either controlled by the government, or the owners of productive resources, or, assuming they are organised, the trades unions. Governments may interfere with markets in many ways short of actual control: one that doesn't get sufficient attention in much 'right-wing' literature is the importance of government subsidy to business.
The whole lobbying industry is devoted to taking the freedom out of the market.
Try and read Joan Robinson's work on oligopoly. And her book Dangerous Corner is one of the best short, readable and realistic books on modern economics I know of, if you can locate a copy.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 17:16 |
an efficient education system. Sounds reasonable. Who pays for the education system though? How many teachers are made available. How much money can the govt give to schools while paying for weapons for their own security at the same time. The way you position the USSR is as if their resources are infinite. You see the army, navy, cosmonaut programs all getting funding and the USSR as big as it is, still has a finite amount of resources to give to every sector of the country. And without a middle class, not enough money was being able to be regenerated.
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Antioxos
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 18:10 |
Well there two main theories about the mixed economies (with some variations) 1st Keynesian Theory, is an economic theory based on the ideas of 20th century British economist Jhon Maynard Keynes . Keynesian economics promotes a mixed economy , where both the state and the private sector play an important role. Keynes asserted the importance of aggregate demand for goods as the driving factor of the economy , especially in periods of downturn. From this he argued that government policies could be used to promote demand at a macro level, to fight high unemployment and deflation of the sort seen during the 1930s . 2nd Monetarism (Milton Friedman,Chicago school ) focuses on the supply and demand for money as the primary means by
which economic activity is regulated. Monetary theory focuses on money supply and on inflation as an effect of the supply of money being larger than the demand for money.Monetarism had an ideological as well as a practical appeal: monetary
policy does not, at least on the surface, imply as much government
intervention in the economy as other measures.
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pekau
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 19:13 |
Originally posted by Antioxos
Well there two main theories about the mixed economies (with some variations) 1st Keynesian Theory, is an economic theory based on the ideas of 20th century British economist Jhon Maynard Keynes . Keynesian economics promotes a mixed economy , where both the state and the private sector play an important role. Keynes asserted the importance of aggregate demand for goods as the driving factor of the economy , especially in periods of downturn. From this he argued that government policies could be used to promote demand at a macro level, to fight high unemployment and deflation of the sort seen during the 1930s . 2nd Monetarism (Milton Friedman,Chicago school ) focuses on the supply and demand for money as the primary means by which economic activity is regulated. Monetary theory focuses on money supply and on inflation as an effect of the supply of money being larger than the demand for money.Monetarism had an ideological as well as a practical appeal: monetary policy does not, at least on the surface, imply as much government intervention in the economy as other measures. |
Neat. Never heard of these theories before. Thanks for sharing...
By the way, isn't Monetarism basically Communism?
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gcle2003
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 07:21 |
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon
an efficient education system. Sounds reasonable. Who pays for the education system though? How many teachers are made available. How much money can the govt give to schools while paying for weapons for their own security at the same time. The way you position the USSR is as if their resources are infinite. You see the army, navy, cosmonaut programs all getting funding and the USSR as big as it is, still has a finite amount of resources to give to every sector of the country. And without a middle class, not enough money was being able to be regenerated. |
I couldn't agree more that the Soviet Union devoted too much of its resources to defence. So does the US. China and Europe have it much better in balance.
But I rather think here you are confusing money with resources. In any modern economy money is an artificial construct, and effectively limitless. that's even more true in a command economy.
My point was that the Soviet Union devoted a bigger proportion of its resources to health care and social security (and I believe, though I'm not so sure to education). In general you have to measure a country's achievements against what it is trying to achieve. It makes little sense to say the Soviet Union was less successful than the US in providing what the US consumer wants, when it wasn't trying to. Reaction to post-communism conditions in Russia and the other republics certainly shows that many people there wanted (and still want) what the USSR gave them, rather than what the USA provides.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 07:28 |
Originally posted by Antioxos
Well there two main theories about the mixed economies (with some variations) 1st Keynesian Theory, is an economic theory based on the ideas of 20th century British economist Jhon Maynard Keynes . Keynesian economics promotes a mixed economy , where both the state and the private sector play an important role. Keynes asserted the importance of aggregate demand for goods as the driving factor of the economy , especially in periods of downturn. From this he argued that government policies could be used to promote demand at a macro level, to fight high unemployment and deflation of the sort seen during the 1930s . 2nd Monetarism (Milton Friedman,Chicago school ) focuses on the supply and demand for money as the primary means by which economic activity is regulated. Monetary theory focuses on money supply and on inflation as an effect of the supply of money being larger than the demand for money.Monetarism had an ideological as well as a practical appeal: monetary policy does not, at least on the surface, imply as much government intervention in the economy as other measures. |
Monetarism implies just as much government intervention: trying to control the money supply is just as much government intervention as trying to control money demand does.
Which, incidentally, indicates why the two theories are sometimes called demand-side and supply-side theories.
The chief difference between them from a political point of view is that Keynesianism promotes full employment as the main goal of government, whereas Friedmanism promotes maintaining stable monetary value as the main goal. The first therefore tends to be populist and 'left-wing', favouring the less well-off, whereas the second is conservative and 'right-wing', favouring the better-off.
Neither of them actually works.
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Antioxos
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 14:36 |
Originally posted by pekau
Neat. Never heard of these theories before. Thanks for sharing...
By the way, isn't Monetarism basically Communism? |
Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless,stateless social organization, based upon common owneriship of the means of production . Early forms of human social organization have been described as primitive communism.The ex Soviet Union was not a communist organization. As you understand no relation with monetarism.
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Antioxos
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Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 14:37 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
The chief difference between them from a political point of view is that Keynesianism promotes full employment as the main goal of government, whereas Friedmanism promotes maintaining stable monetary value as the main goal. The first therefore tends to be populist and 'left-wing', favouring the less well-off, whereas the second is conservative and 'right-wing', favouring the better-off.
Neither of them actually works.
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Actually Monetarism consider unemployment normal situation of economy and Margaret Thatcher was the first that implement monetarism in U.K and this period it was invented the term "society of 2/3". In our time there is no doctrines ,the state intervent where it is necessary and also a job of a state is to prevent the creation of cartels in the certain part of a economy..
Edited by Antioxos - 02-Feb-2007 at 14:43
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 00:19 |
Well, not the ideology, but their method of controlling economy. They are saying that government should be responsible for all economical affairs.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 01:48 |
A small thing to note, sorry if it's already been mentioned, is that no-one has ever really imposed an entirely planned, nor an entire free market economy. Personally I think humans are the only specied on earth to have developed a system that is detrimental to most of the species.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 07:36 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
...Personally I think humans are the only specied on earth to have developed a system that is detrimental to most of the species.
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I agree!
But not only is detrimental of other species but of mankind itself.
Just count which is the percentage of humans that really benefit from the current worldwide economical system, and how many live in misery or are exploited like donkeys, including professionals.
Very few of us live the lifes of the CEOs and theirs families.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 09:54 |
Well I meant detrimental to most of the human species, but I suppose it is, in a way, detrimental to the environment too. Take the great depression for example. The whole world got screwed over by a made up system.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:15 |
Actually a severe depression might be good for the environment. It's economic growth that has caused the problems we now face.
So of course would a severe world-wide epidemic like the black death. But I'm not actually advocating that either
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:52 |
I noticed my post structure wasn't every good in this case, but the last sentence was actually meant to be a general example of how flawed the system is.
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Ponce de Leon
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Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 22:19 |
The system is flawed because society is flawed. It works with the wishes of the people because of supply and demand. Leave the economics to the markets and stop the government from touching it
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