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Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war
    Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:33
Originally posted by Killabee

Originally posted by The Charioteer

 
 
 
The above two scenes are reconstruction of Ming soldiers raping Korean women during Imjin war.
 
It seems these are scenes come from a Korean history drama about Admiral Yi Sun Sin?
 
Could anyone provide more detailed historical documents that record the atrocities commited by Ming army during Imjin war?
 
Because from one sided view of Chinese history text books regarding Imjin war, these atrocities are never mentioned.
 
So i would really like to hear different opinions.
 
 
 
 
I saw this korean-made TV drama. I think it is called "The immortality of Yi Shun Shin" or something like that.
 
I would say all the Chinese in this drama were depicted as despicable, treacherous, lousy and wimpy scumbag and all they did was conspiring with the Japanese to ransack and loot the Korean.
 
It made no mention of the contribution done by Chinese. Not even the Battle of Pyongyang and Kaesong where the Chinese successfully drove the Japanese from the Northern Korea theater. All the battles were fought bravely and won by the Korean.
 
Chen Lin was depicted as an asshole and all he wanted was refraining YI from engaging and  taking credit from him. 
 
Didn't make any mention about how the  70 years old Veteran admiral Tang Chi Lung (was played by an actor who looks like 40 years his junior) sacrificed himself during the battle Noryong.
 
Although Korean drama is really sickening sometimes because their historical accuracy is as poor as ever, I got to admit that their drama is actually good. I heard some are getting really popular in Korea's neighboring countries... except North Korea...
     
   
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 13:38
Killabee,
 
Very good point.
 
Also like to state the sad state of affairs between Koreans and Chinese presently and compare it with the sense of "brotherhood" between Joeson Dynasty and the Ming.
 
Of course, the relationship between Ming and Joeson had its major drawbacks, but their relationship seems more amiable than the present situation.
 
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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:00
I have just read about the atrocities alleged by the quoted chinese text given.
It cannot be called a real atrocity.
They look merely individual accidents conducted by some bad chinese soliders during the chaos of the korea peninsula. and most importantly, as the text states those criminal soliders later were all punished and beheaded by their chinese superior commanding officier stationed in Korea. that is why when then Choson King heard the report on the accident, also as the text tells, he responded with nothing but "noticed".


Edited by YanWang - 15-Feb-2007 at 04:04


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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War
 
Here the wikipedia gives very good detailed information about the war.
about chinese role during the war,
one thing is the most unforgotten fact, that  from the time the choson's capital was taken by Japanese, korean resistance forces turned to be a supporting role to the Ming Chinese allied forces of which  at that time koreans calls as 'celestial army' , which a reference to China - allegelly a land where the son of heaven resides.
 


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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:42
Ming China and Choson Korea were realy like bothers.
More or less they almost shared ONE culture , from cloths, offical language(written and literacy), rituals, ceremonies, holidays, governmental structure,  offical religions. everything except Choson has a native leader titled King(strictly speaking, Provincial King 郡王 under Ming ranking rituals, as stated in some Ming's commissionary edicts to the choson leaders).
 


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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 14:38
Originally posted by snowybeagle

I just realised what was it about the pictures that puzzled me - the uniform of the Ming soldiers.
 
The use of the colour yellow, even non Imperial-yellow, was regulated.
I do not think Ming soldiers would have been issued with yellow uniforms.
 
 
This Ming dynasty scroll is depiction of Ming army suppressing a rebellion in 1575. Since this event happened during emperor Wan li's reign, as its the same emperor ordered the Chinese army to enter Korea to fight the Japanese.
 
I think we have a good reason to believe the Ming army depicted in this scroll would have some resemblance to the army dispatched to Korea. 


Edited by The Charioteer - 20-Apr-2007 at 14:40
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 15:31
Do you think imjin war is the key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty?
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 18:55
Originally posted by The Charioteer

Originally posted by snowybeagle

I just realised what was it about the pictures that puzzled me - the uniform of the Ming soldiers.
 
The use of the colour yellow, even non Imperial-yellow, was regulated.
I do not think Ming soldiers would have been issued with yellow uniforms.
 
 
This Ming dynasty scroll is depiction of Ming army suppressing a rebellion in 1575. Since this event happened during emperor Wan li's reign, as its the same emperor ordered the Chinese army to enter Korea to fight the Japanese.
 
I think we have a good reason to believe the Ming army depicted in this scroll would have some resemblance to the army dispatched to Korea. 
 
I've always hope that who ever drawn this painting scroll could draw it closer so we could actually get a closer view on the armours of those soldiers were wearing.
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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 03:19
I'm kind of surprised that Ming was depicted that way in that drama.  Ming and Yi Chosen were probably the closest allies with each other at the time, and that was one of the periods when China and Korea had the closest ties.  During both the Imjun War and the Manchurian invasion, the two nations stuck by each other.  The drama reflects more of the current relationship between the two countries rather than history.  (The beef really goes back to the Korean War -- my impression is that South Koreans hate Mainland China about as much as North Koreans hate America.  The Koguryo debates just make things so much worse.)  It's sad how current events can distort our views of history.


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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:03
Originally posted by intem

 
I've always hope that who ever drawn this painting scroll could draw it closer so we could actually get a closer view on the armours of those soldiers were wearing.
 
This Ming painting scroll "出警入跸图"(Chu Jing Ru Bi Tu) depicts emperor Wan li (1563~1620A.D) on his way to imperial mausoleum.  
 
A Taiwanese stamp depicting the scene:
 
"入跸图"(Ru bi tu)
 
details from the scroll:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
A drawing of Ming soldier in armor, accord to the armor depicted in the scroll.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Apr-2007 at 12:44
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:08
Another Ming dynasty scroll "倭寇图"(Wo kou tu)depicting Ming army fighting the Japanese pirates.
 
refugees:
 
 
 
Ming army fight the Japanese pirates:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The phrase on the banner of this ship says "to protect the country and to save the people" (护国救民)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 22-Apr-2007 at 13:44
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:18
Here is a reconstruction of Ming military outfits.
 
 
 Notice the uniform of Ming soldier to the far right, and compare it with the Ming soldiers depicted in this Korean history drama
you can see there are some resemblance between the two. Perhaps the design of Ming outfits from this drama is based on that reconstructive drawing.


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Apr-2007 at 06:31
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 04:55
charioteer, you are my legend. I've always been looking for these scrolls depicting ming dynasty infantry and cavalry clad in armour. Questions, are there any story background with these scrolls and also are these scrolls drawn by a person from ming period, because i would like to know that whether its a replica or something but i hope this isn't a replica. The reason behind is that, if it's a replica thats drawn by a modern day artist they might exaggerate it; for example, if peasants weren't suppose to have armours reality but they tend to draw it so just to exaggerate that even the peasants was acquired to wear one.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 14:20
Originally posted by intem

charioteer, you are my legend. I've always been looking for these scrolls depicting ming dynasty infantry and cavalry clad in armour. Questions, are there any story background with these scrolls and also are these scrolls drawn by a person from ming period, because i would like to know that whether its a replica or something but i hope this isn't a replica. The reason behind is that, if it's a replica thats drawn by a modern day artist they might exaggerate it; for example, if peasants weren't suppose to have armours reality but they tend to draw it so just to exaggerate that even the peasants was acquired to wear one.
 
The first scroll is called "出警入跸图"(Chu jing ru bi tu), it depicts Ming imperial procession on their way to the imperial mausoleum for paying respect to the ancestors, and it also depicts the scene of them on their way back to the capital.
 
The second scroll is called "倭寇图"(Wo kou tu). (I just uploaded 3 more pictures)
 
These scrolls are from Ming dynasty, they are not replica, nothing is exaggerated in the depictions, because the armoured soldiers depicted in first scroll are imperial guard units, I believe their armour is unique.
 
Here is some information on the imperial guard units:
 
"明会典--卷一百四十二
    侍卫
朝廷侍卫将军等项人员、各该官统领。凡圣节、正旦、冬至、三大朝会、
大祀誓戒、册封、遣祭传制御殿、则用全直。常朝、则更番。其衣甲器仗、及陈列位次、各有定制。
凡掌领侍卫、侯伯驸马等官六员。一员管锦衣卫大汉将军、及勋卫、散骑舍人、府军前卫带刀官。四员管神枢营红盔将军。每日一员轮直,一员管五军营叉刀官军。
锦衣卫大汉将军一千五百七员名。
府军前卫带刀官四十员。
神枢营红盔将军一千五百员名。把总指挥十六员。明甲将军五百二员名。把总指挥四员。大汉将军八员。
五军营叉刀围子手三千名。把总指挥八员。
勋卫、散骑舍人、无定员。
旗手等二十卫带刀官一百八十员。

凡圣节,正旦,冬至三大朝会及大祀,警戒,册封,御殿等场合,都有掌领侍卫官及锦衣卫大汉将军,神枢营红盔将军等按照一定位次,负责警卫侍从工作.掌管侍卫官头戴凤翅盔,身着锁子甲,腰佩绣春刀;侍卫将军盔甲整齐,佩刀,执金瓜或斧械.
甲胃的具体形制,《明会典》没有记载.十三陵的两对将军像则对其凤翅盔(头黎),顿项云肩(呈布巾状,又称披巾),披膊,臂猎,兽头吞口,抱肚,吊腿(腿裙)及鹤尾,战靴等各部位均雕刻得十分具体形象,且甲片的形式,鹊尾形状,抱肚上的图案等丰富多彩,为人们了解明代侍卫将军的服饰提供了可靠的依据. "
 
So the armoured soldiers depicted in the first scroll are the imperial guard units described in the above text.
 
The text is an extraction from Ming documents, it didnt describe in details what these units were dressed like.
 
However we can refer to the stone guards which are still standing today alongside the "spiritual way" of Ming tomb situated at outskirt of Beijing.
 
 
 
Now compare the second stone guard to the guard depicted from the scroll
 
 
see the armour of the one holding the hammer(which is the same weapon to that of the stone guard is holding), it does actually resemble the armor wore by the stone guard.
 
The stone guards are carved during Ming dynasty, since their outfits do have resemblance to some of the armours depicted in the scroll, there is a good chance the military uniforms depicted in the painting indeed existed during the Ming period.
Besides,
Since the costumes of civil officials are depicted accurately in this scroll,  we should have some confidence in believing that the military personnels depicted in the scroll are also accurate.
 
more pictures of the armour wore by the stone guard.
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 22-Apr-2007 at 14:56
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:02

P.S. remember the thread about the TV drama "江山风雨情"(Jiang shan feng yu qing)

 
This is the armour wore by Ming emperor from that drama
 
 
compare it to the armour wore by emperor Wan li from the scroll
 
 
you can see the resemblance there between the two.
 
How about the soldiers depicted in the TV drama "Jiang shan feng yu qing"
 
I dont really know where the costume designers get their ideas from, 
but here is a Ming painting "射雉图"(She zhi tu), which depicts a Ming military officer on a trip of hunting.
 
see one of his follower's outfit
 
actually have some resemblance to the uniform depicted in that drama. perhaps the costume designer of the drama was inspired by this painting.
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Apr-2007 at 12:51
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:28

intem, as for the questioning on the background of the scroll "Chu jing ru bi tu".

CCTV 10 features a wonderful documentary series called "The national treasures" (国宝档案), one of the episode is actually about this scroll.

You can view it online at
 
or along with many other episodes, you can check it out here


Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Apr-2007 at 12:50
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 19:14
by the way charioteer where did you able to download all of these scrolls? Did you download them or did you scanned from books and upload them. Also, mind if you could upload some pictures depicting ming soldiers fighting against those japanese pirates and also some imjin war scrolls depicting ming soldiers fighting them too.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 08:05
Killabee is the original uploader for "Chu jing ru bi tu".
 
I have more pictures of "Chu jing ru bi tu", but they are too large. I uploaded them to mofile , 2262233432637038


Edited by The Charioteer - 26-Apr-2007 at 06:21
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:29
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Do you think imjin war is the key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty?
 
If imjin is a key factor, where do we put Lizicheng's rebel army who was the one captured Beijing?
 
Did the Ming lost its military ability after imjin war? I dont think so.
 
Even mother nature had more contribution than imjin war.
 
Elnino caused unusual long period of drought(several years) across much area of China during late Ming period, which subsequently triggered locust plagues etc. And it was under this circumstance, large number of rebel armies were mobilized.
 
The main force of the rebel army was once encircled by Ming army at the narrow valley of Chexiangxia for more than 2 months, been cut off from supplies, the rebels were doomed for certain. But oddly, Ming army let the rebels "tricked" them and let them go? As the Ming government always assume many of them were once simple farmers, they were forced to become what they are now because of natural disasters. The government didnt really want to exterminate them. But ironically, those who escaped this time became the actual one which they eventually captured Beijing.
 
Besides, the question may be asked the other way, like What if Ming didnt answer to Korea's call and participate in the war?
 
Im sure history drama like this one would give us the impression that Korea would had won the imjin war on its own.
 
Its interesting to see all those propositions that "imjin war is a key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty", but thats a debatable interpretation, just like the proposition "without Ming's participation, Yi dynasty would had seen its downfall before Japan" is a debatable interpretation.
 
If relatively speaking the more obvious is still a matter of debatable proposition, then why should the less obvious one be readily accepted as the last word?


Edited by The Charioteer - 24-Apr-2007 at 20:50
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by MengTzu

I'm kind of surprised that Ming was depicted that way in that drama.  Ming and Yi Chosen were probably the closest allies with each other at the time, and that was one of the periods when China and Korea had the closest ties.  During both the Imjun War and the Manchurian invasion, the two nations stuck by each other.  The drama reflects more of the current relationship between the two countries rather than history.  (The beef really goes back to the Korean War -- my impression is that South Koreans hate Mainland China about as much as North Koreans hate America.  The Koguryo debates just make things so much worse.)  It's sad how current events can distort our views of history.
 
maybe the beef is more tasty than that
 
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