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Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war

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  Quote MengTzu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war
    Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 03:19
I'm kind of surprised that Ming was depicted that way in that drama.  Ming and Yi Chosen were probably the closest allies with each other at the time, and that was one of the periods when China and Korea had the closest ties.  During both the Imjun War and the Manchurian invasion, the two nations stuck by each other.  The drama reflects more of the current relationship between the two countries rather than history.  (The beef really goes back to the Korean War -- my impression is that South Koreans hate Mainland China about as much as North Koreans hate America.  The Koguryo debates just make things so much worse.)  It's sad how current events can distort our views of history.


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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 18:55
Originally posted by The Charioteer

Originally posted by snowybeagle

I just realised what was it about the pictures that puzzled me - the uniform of the Ming soldiers.
 
The use of the colour yellow, even non Imperial-yellow, was regulated.
I do not think Ming soldiers would have been issued with yellow uniforms.
 
 
This Ming dynasty scroll is depiction of Ming army suppressing a rebellion in 1575. Since this event happened during emperor Wan li's reign, as its the same emperor ordered the Chinese army to enter Korea to fight the Japanese.
 
I think we have a good reason to believe the Ming army depicted in this scroll would have some resemblance to the army dispatched to Korea. 
 
I've always hope that who ever drawn this painting scroll could draw it closer so we could actually get a closer view on the armours of those soldiers were wearing.
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  Quote Siege Tower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 15:31
Do you think imjin war is the key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty?
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 14:38
Originally posted by snowybeagle

I just realised what was it about the pictures that puzzled me - the uniform of the Ming soldiers.
 
The use of the colour yellow, even non Imperial-yellow, was regulated.
I do not think Ming soldiers would have been issued with yellow uniforms.
 
 
This Ming dynasty scroll is depiction of Ming army suppressing a rebellion in 1575. Since this event happened during emperor Wan li's reign, as its the same emperor ordered the Chinese army to enter Korea to fight the Japanese.
 
I think we have a good reason to believe the Ming army depicted in this scroll would have some resemblance to the army dispatched to Korea. 


Edited by The Charioteer - 20-Apr-2007 at 14:40
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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:42
Ming China and Choson Korea were realy like bothers.
More or less they almost shared ONE culture , from cloths, offical language(written and literacy), rituals, ceremonies, holidays, governmental structure,  offical religions. everything except Choson has a native leader titled King(strictly speaking, Provincial King 郡王 under Ming ranking rituals, as stated in some Ming's commissionary edicts to the choson leaders).
 


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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War
 
Here the wikipedia gives very good detailed information about the war.
about chinese role during the war,
one thing is the most unforgotten fact, that  from the time the choson's capital was taken by Japanese, korean resistance forces turned to be a supporting role to the Ming Chinese allied forces of which  at that time koreans calls as 'celestial army' , which a reference to China - allegelly a land where the son of heaven resides.
 


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  Quote YanWang Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:00
I have just read about the atrocities alleged by the quoted chinese text given.
It cannot be called a real atrocity.
They look merely individual accidents conducted by some bad chinese soliders during the chaos of the korea peninsula. and most importantly, as the text states those criminal soliders later were all punished and beheaded by their chinese superior commanding officier stationed in Korea. that is why when then Choson King heard the report on the accident, also as the text tells, he responded with nothing but "noticed".


Edited by YanWang - 15-Feb-2007 at 04:04


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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 13:38
Killabee,
 
Very good point.
 
Also like to state the sad state of affairs between Koreans and Chinese presently and compare it with the sense of "brotherhood" between Joeson Dynasty and the Ming.
 
Of course, the relationship between Ming and Joeson had its major drawbacks, but their relationship seems more amiable than the present situation.
 
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:33
Originally posted by Killabee

Originally posted by The Charioteer

 
 
 
The above two scenes are reconstruction of Ming soldiers raping Korean women during Imjin war.
 
It seems these are scenes come from a Korean history drama about Admiral Yi Sun Sin?
 
Could anyone provide more detailed historical documents that record the atrocities commited by Ming army during Imjin war?
 
Because from one sided view of Chinese history text books regarding Imjin war, these atrocities are never mentioned.
 
So i would really like to hear different opinions.
 
 
 
 
I saw this korean-made TV drama. I think it is called "The immortality of Yi Shun Shin" or something like that.
 
I would say all the Chinese in this drama were depicted as despicable, treacherous, lousy and wimpy scumbag and all they did was conspiring with the Japanese to ransack and loot the Korean.
 
It made no mention of the contribution done by Chinese. Not even the Battle of Pyongyang and Kaesong where the Chinese successfully drove the Japanese from the Northern Korea theater. All the battles were fought bravely and won by the Korean.
 
Chen Lin was depicted as an asshole and all he wanted was refraining YI from engaging and  taking credit from him. 
 
Didn't make any mention about how the  70 years old Veteran admiral Tang Chi Lung (was played by an actor who looks like 40 years his junior) sacrificed himself during the battle Noryong.
 
Although Korean drama is really sickening sometimes because their historical accuracy is as poor as ever, I got to admit that their drama is actually good. I heard some are getting really popular in Korea's neighboring countries... except North Korea...
     
   
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:28
Originally posted by The Charioteer

 
 
 
The above two scenes are reconstruction of Ming soldiers raping Korean women during Imjin war.
 
It seems these are scenes come from a Korean history drama about Admiral Yi Sun Sin?
 
Could anyone provide more detailed historical documents that record the atrocities commited by Ming army during Imjin war?
 
Because from one sided view of Chinese history text books regarding Imjin war, these atrocities are never mentioned.
 
So i would really like to hear different opinions.
 
 
 
 
I saw this korean-made TV drama. I think it is called "The immortality of Yi Shun Shin" or something like that.
 
I would say all the Chinese in this drama were depicted as despicable, treacherous, lousy and wimpy scumbag and all they did was conspiring with the Japanese to ransack and loot the Korean.
 
It made no mention of the contribution done by Chinese. Not even the Battle of Pyongyang and Kaesong where the Chinese successfully drove the Japanese from the Northern Korea theater. All the battles were fought bravely and won by the Korean.
 
Chen Lin was depicted as an asshole and all he wanted was refraining YI from engaging and  taking credit from him. 
 
Didn't make any mention about how the  70 years old Veteran admiral Tang Chi Lung (was played by an actor who looks like 40 years his junior) sacrificed himself during the battle Noryong.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:20

And can someone answer my question about the Ming's capability to aid Korea, as explained in my earlier post? Anyone who are expert in Chinese history?

     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:19
Originally posted by jiangweibaoye

Very true.

Admiral Yi achievements are great, but naval floatilla cannot garrison or capture a city or hold a stragetic pass (except a naval routes).
 
Wars are always won by the infantry. 
 
Even with Air Power, it and Naval power almost always plays a supportative role in a War.  The real battle is almost always on the ground.
 
Jiangwei
 
Indeed. Even in modern warfare, land forces really determines the winner. Except in sea because infantry don't tend to fight and swim at the same time...
 
But yes. Yi Sunshin may have tried his best, but the outcome of war was determined by land. He simply sped things up.
 
 
     
   
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:05
There was similar thread made a while back.
 
 
Here is what I wrote back then:
 
"Undoubtedly, the Ming Army had commited atrocity during the time when garrisoned in Korea as one forumer had pointed out looting and raping was inevitable during the medieval warfare. However, by saying the extent of the atrocity perpetrated by the Ming Army was as much  as Japanese Army is highly unbelievable. If the Ming Army was really as bad as the Japanese Army as someone claimed , why were so many Korean still faithful to the Ming regime even after the downfall in 1644 when the Manchus invaded Beijing.  Here is one statement written in Classical Chinese by the one of the Korean official at that time to stress the relationship between Ming China and Joseon Dynasty:
 
 
"我朝三百年來,服事大明,其情其義,固不暇言。而神宗皇帝(明神宗萬歷皇帝朱翊鈞)再造之恩,自開闢以來,亦未聞於載籍者。宣祖大王所謂義則君臣,恩猶父子,實是真誠痛切語也."
 
It roughly translates as " The Joeson Dynasty has been serving faithfully  the Ming China for the past three hundred years. The bond was uncuttable between the two nations . The grace that have been given by Emperor Wanli (means sending troops in Imjin War) was a like rebirth to a child by a father."
 
King Hyojong of Joseon Dynasty even plotted to assist in restoring the Ming Regime but was never able to put in action because of internal issue and the growing mightiness of Manchu Qing Dynasty.
 
Not to mention till the end of Qing Dynasty in the 19th Century, many Korean still secretly used the reigning title of the Last Ming Emperor . Songzhen 崇禎in remembrance instead of the contemporary Manchu Emperor reigning title."
 
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  Quote jiangweibaoye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:17

Very true.

Admiral Yi achievements are great, but naval floatilla cannot garrison or capture a city or hold a stragetic pass (except a naval routes).
 
Wars are always won by the infantry. 
 
Even with Air Power, it and Naval power almost always plays a supportative role in a War.  The real battle is almost always on the ground.
 
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  Quote Slick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 23:59
It's definitely true, at least in the first korean campaign. Under Konishi Yukinaga, Kato Kiyomasa, etc. the Japanese swept through Korea quickly and with ease. It was not until the Ming invaded that the Japanese were pushed off the peninsula. The combination of Ming reinforcements and Yi Sun Shin's naval victories was what mainly allowed the Koreans to win in the end, in my opinion.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 09:17
Originally posted by stupidumboy

My English is not so good to trabslate all  them with appropriate words ,

so I just told cydevil could
do it because he can do both of good Chinese and English.
 
back to your opinion about Ming troops,
 
Ming was reluctant to get involved in the Imjin war first time.
But finally decided to send supportive troops.
 
As you told ,their contribution was under expectation.
 
but IMO without Ming's support ,
Chosun was invaded by Toyotomi absoutely.
 
Ming sent about 190,000 infantries  to support Chosun and financially it supported Silver 20,000 liang (unit) . The 20,000 silver was a lot of fund that King Sunjo addressed money left even after collecting more troops and giving saleries to beaucrats.
 
When Ming sent its first deployed troops , Chosun had no ground forces to block Japanese north heading.
 
You cannot deny the fact that the battle of Pyongyang changed the situation of Imjin war. The winning was made by Ming troops.
 
Lee Sun Shin was great admiral but hes navy commander.
Contribution is limited.
 
It was winning of Pyongtang battle that made Konishi to head back to the South.
 
 
 
 
 
I see. I often doubt about how much Ming could have done to Chosen Dynasty since Ming was in decline, and other Chinese rivals were planning to sack Ming. I do agree that they made difference to Imjin War, but I wonder how much they really did.
 
Yes, I can understand the financial aid. This makes sense to me, although again... I wonder how much Ming can do when their homeland's situation was in crisis as well. Mind if anyone fill me up with some Chinese history here?
     
   
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  Quote stupidumboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 01:15

My English is not so good to trabslate all  them with appropriate words ,

so I just told cydevil could
do it because he can do both of good Chinese and English.
 
back to your opinion about Ming troops,
 
Ming was reluctant to get involved in the Imjin war first time.
But finally decided to send supportive troops.
 
As you told ,their contribution was under expectation.
 
but IMO without Ming's support ,
Chosun was invaded by Toyotomi absoutely.
 
Ming sent about 190,000 infantries  to support Chosun and financially it supported Silver 20,000 liang (unit) . The 20,000 silver was a lot of fund that King Sunjo addressed money left even after collecting more troops and giving saleries to beaucrats.
 
When Ming sent its first deployed troops , Chosun had no ground forces to block Japanese north heading.
 
You cannot deny the fact that the battle of Pyongyang changed the situation of Imjin war. The winning was made by Ming troops.
 
Lee Sun Shin was great admiral but hes navy commander.
Contribution is limited.
 
It was winning of Pyongtang battle that made Konishi to head back to the South.
 
 
 
 


Edited by stupidumboy - 05-Feb-2007 at 01:27
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:34
Originally posted by stupidumboy

Yes, they are based on the real history record, 
Accordi ng to 'the annals  of Chosun dynasty.'
 
宣祖 91卷, 30年( 1597 丁酉 / (萬曆) 25年) 8月 7日 乙丑 6
 
漢城府啓曰: 當日到付中部主簿牒呈內, 本月初六日夕, 私奴世亨招內, 有一蒙白女人過去, 唐人扶執, 脅奸作計。 怒其牢拒不從, 拔劍剌腮及項, 又斬世亨十四歲童奴末叱山頭, 手持橫行云。 敢啓。 頗遊擊管下軍李宗義及被傷女人德只等, 麻都督使頗遊擊取招, 則李宗義招辭以爲: 昨日失馬尋蹤之際, 兒童三人在路上牽去, 見我追去, 二兒走避, 一兒顚仆。 進捉詰問, 則只謂我强盜, 醉酒中拔劍殺之 云。 德只以爲: 自市上從抄路轉過, 唐人一名逆來, 欲爲怯奸, 高聲走過, 則拔劍趕到, 刺傷右腮。 時有一兒從後來, 亦爲大呼强盜, 則返追兒童, 因爲擊殺 云。 遊擊以女人之說爲實, 稟于都督, 斬首於鍾樓街上云。 上曰: 知道。
 
 
宣祖 103卷, 31年( 1598 戊戌 / (萬曆) 26年) 8月 1日 甲寅
 
劉提督接伴使金睟馳啓曰: 衙門各將, 到全羅地方, 多發軍丁, 搜索遠近, 無髮者, 皆綁拿。 得病落髮者及僧髡, 亦皆被拿, 一日之間多至數百。 天兵因此出入村巷, 奪掠財産, 刦奸婦女, 至有强奸童女。 事覺, 提督梟其甚者。
 
Maybe cydevil could help some translation if you are confused to understand articles clearly.
There are more but I am just showing the authentic record about those incidents.
 
 
I thought you were Chinese, no? If so, you should be able to translate them... right?
 
Don't know much about Ming's intervention in the war, although they did not change the tide of war much. Their first attack to Japanese armies were a total failure, mostly because Chinese advance party underistimated the Japanese invaders. It was mostly Korean resistance and new Korean army reinforced with Ming's superior cannons that changed the tide of war, not to mention Yi Sunshin's effort to blockade and reduce the transportation, reinforcement and supply route to support the Japanese armies in Korea.
     
   
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 19:26
I just realised what was it about the pictures that puzzled me - the uniform of the Ming soldiers.
 
The use of the colour yellow, even non Imperial-yellow, was regulated.
I do not think Ming soldiers would have been issued with yellow uniforms.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 19:08
Originally posted by Slick

Yeah I know, but this thread is talking about the Imjin War. I knew that the Chinese fought with Koreans sometimes, but just never realized that the Ming, ostensibly Korean allies during that war, even did nasty things.
I see your point ...
 
Tragically, some Ming soldiers probably did the same thing to their own people. Many officials were not appointed for their competence and did not discipline themselves, much less their own troops.
 
Any mention in the Korean historical records of the response of the Korean government to this?
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