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Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war

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  Quote Martjn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war
    Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 06:39
"遊擊以女人之說爲實, 稟于都督, 斬首於鍾樓街上": Youji (an army rank) takes the women's words as real, told the Dudu (higher ranked general) and had them killed.

"事覺, 提督梟其甚者。":
When discovered, the Tidu (synonymous to Dudu) had the most extreme ones beheaded.


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  Quote Martjn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 06:35
Originally posted by stupidumboy

Yes, they are based on the real history record, 
Accordi ng to 'the annals  of Chosun dynasty.'
 
宣祖 91卷, 30年( 1597 丁酉 / (萬曆) 25年) 8月 7日 乙丑 6
 
漢城府啓曰: �當日到付中部主簿牒呈內, 本月初六日夕, 私奴世亨招內, 有一蒙白女人過去, 唐人扶執, 脅奸作計。 怒其牢拒不從, 拔劍剌腮及項, 又斬世亨十四歲童奴末叱山頭, 手持橫行云。 敢啓。� 頗遊擊管下軍李宗義及被傷女人德只等, 麻都督使頗遊擊取招, 則李宗義招辭以爲: �昨日失馬尋蹤之際, 兒童三人在路上牽去, 見我追去, 二兒走避, 一兒顚仆。 進捉詰問, 則只謂我强盜, 醉酒中拔劍殺之� 云。 德只以爲: �自市上從抄路轉過, 唐人一名逆來, 欲爲怯奸, 高聲走過, 則拔劍趕到, 刺傷右腮。 時有一兒從後來, 亦爲大呼强盜, 則返追兒童, 因爲擊殺� 云。 遊擊以女人之說爲實, 稟于都督, 斬首於鍾樓街上云。 上曰: �知道。�
 
 
宣祖 103卷, 31年( 1598 戊戌 / (萬曆) 26年) 8月 1日 甲寅
 
劉提督接伴使金睟馳啓曰: �衙門各將, 到全羅地方, 多發軍丁, 搜索遠近, 無髮者, 皆綁拿。 得病落髮者及僧髡, 亦皆被拿, 一日之間多至數百。 天兵因此出入村巷, 奪掠財産, 刦奸婦女, 至有强奸童女。 事覺, 提督梟其甚者。�
 
Maybe cydevil could help some translation if you are confused to understand articles clearly.
There are more but I am just showing the authentic record about those incidents.
 

I mean in those texts. Sorry for the quotation fail.
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  Quote Martjn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 06:34
Lol I knew non of you guys can read this. Both source literally said that the delinquent soldiers were executed by the Ming generals themselves.
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  Quote heyamigos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2012 at 08:01
This may be another reason why Sui and Tang spend so much time and energy invading Korea in the past too (for the women). It is written that the soft and light features of Korean women was desired in the past.
 
In Japan, Haplogroup O2B has a slightly higher rate than O3, while in Korea, O3 is slightly higher than O2B.  Could it be this recent Chinese influence in Korean genetics?
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 18:04
This painting illustrates a Ming general in armor
 
 
If compare it to the armor wore by stone guard of Ming tomb
 
 
The similarity is quite obvious.


Edited by The Charioteer - 30-Apr-2007 at 18:20
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 02:42
Killabee are you a chinese? How were able to get these magnificient pictures?
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:56
Here are some of the series of "出警入跸图"(Chu Jing Ru Bi Tu). I will post more when I have time.











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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:40






General Guan wearing Ming style armor.
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  Quote Killabee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:21
Haha.. can't believe some of the pics I uploaded long time ago can be seen in here.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:35
Originally posted by MengTzu

I'm kind of surprised that Ming was depicted that way in that drama.  Ming and Yi Chosen were probably the closest allies with each other at the time, and that was one of the periods when China and Korea had the closest ties.  During both the Imjun War and the Manchurian invasion, the two nations stuck by each other.  The drama reflects more of the current relationship between the two countries rather than history.  (The beef really goes back to the Korean War -- my impression is that South Koreans hate Mainland China about as much as North Koreans hate America.  The Koguryo debates just make things so much worse.)  It's sad how current events can distort our views of history.
 
maybe the beef is more tasty than that
 
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:29
Originally posted by Siege Tower

Do you think imjin war is the key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty?
 
If imjin is a key factor, where do we put Lizicheng's rebel army who was the one captured Beijing?
 
Did the Ming lost its military ability after imjin war? I dont think so.
 
Even mother nature had more contribution than imjin war.
 
Elnino caused unusual long period of drought(several years) across much area of China during late Ming period, which subsequently triggered locust plagues etc. And it was under this circumstance, large number of rebel armies were mobilized.
 
The main force of the rebel army was once encircled by Ming army at the narrow valley of Chexiangxia for more than 2 months, been cut off from supplies, the rebels were doomed for certain. But oddly, Ming army let the rebels "tricked" them and let them go? As the Ming government always assume many of them were once simple farmers, they were forced to become what they are now because of natural disasters. The government didnt really want to exterminate them. But ironically, those who escaped this time became the actual one which they eventually captured Beijing.
 
Besides, the question may be asked the other way, like What if Ming didnt answer to Korea's call and participate in the war?
 
Im sure history drama like this one would give us the impression that Korea would had won the imjin war on its own.
 
Its interesting to see all those propositions that "imjin war is a key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty", but thats a debatable interpretation, just like the proposition "without Ming's participation, Yi dynasty would had seen its downfall before Japan" is a debatable interpretation.
 
If relatively speaking the more obvious is still a matter of debatable proposition, then why should the less obvious one be readily accepted as the last word?


Edited by The Charioteer - 24-Apr-2007 at 20:50
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 08:05
Killabee is the original uploader for "Chu jing ru bi tu".
 
I have more pictures of "Chu jing ru bi tu", but they are too large. I uploaded them to mofile , 2262233432637038


Edited by The Charioteer - 26-Apr-2007 at 06:21
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 19:14
by the way charioteer where did you able to download all of these scrolls? Did you download them or did you scanned from books and upload them. Also, mind if you could upload some pictures depicting ming soldiers fighting against those japanese pirates and also some imjin war scrolls depicting ming soldiers fighting them too.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:28

intem, as for the questioning on the background of the scroll "Chu jing ru bi tu".

CCTV 10 features a wonderful documentary series called "The national treasures" (国宝档案), one of the episode is actually about this scroll.

You can view it online at
 
or along with many other episodes, you can check it out here


Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Apr-2007 at 12:50
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:02

P.S. remember the thread about the TV drama "江山风雨情"(Jiang shan feng yu qing)

 
This is the armour wore by Ming emperor from that drama
 
 
compare it to the armour wore by emperor Wan li from the scroll
 
 
you can see the resemblance there between the two.
 
How about the soldiers depicted in the TV drama "Jiang shan feng yu qing"
 
I dont really know where the costume designers get their ideas from, 
but here is a Ming painting "射雉图"(She zhi tu), which depicts a Ming military officer on a trip of hunting.
 
see one of his follower's outfit
 
actually have some resemblance to the uniform depicted in that drama. perhaps the costume designer of the drama was inspired by this painting.
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Apr-2007 at 12:51
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 14:20
Originally posted by intem

charioteer, you are my legend. I've always been looking for these scrolls depicting ming dynasty infantry and cavalry clad in armour. Questions, are there any story background with these scrolls and also are these scrolls drawn by a person from ming period, because i would like to know that whether its a replica or something but i hope this isn't a replica. The reason behind is that, if it's a replica thats drawn by a modern day artist they might exaggerate it; for example, if peasants weren't suppose to have armours reality but they tend to draw it so just to exaggerate that even the peasants was acquired to wear one.
 
The first scroll is called "出警入跸图"(Chu jing ru bi tu), it depicts Ming imperial procession on their way to the imperial mausoleum for paying respect to the ancestors, and it also depicts the scene of them on their way back to the capital.
 
The second scroll is called "倭寇图"(Wo kou tu). (I just uploaded 3 more pictures)
 
These scrolls are from Ming dynasty, they are not replica, nothing is exaggerated in the depictions, because the armoured soldiers depicted in first scroll are imperial guard units, I believe their armour is unique.
 
Here is some information on the imperial guard units:
 
"明会典--卷一百四十二
    侍卫
朝廷侍卫将军等项人员、各该官统领。凡圣节、正旦、冬至、三大朝会、
大祀誓戒、册封、遣祭传制御殿、则用全直。常朝、则更番。其衣甲器仗、及陈列位次、各有定制。
凡掌领侍卫、侯伯驸马等官六员。一员管锦衣卫大汉将军、及勋卫、散骑舍人、府军前卫带刀官。四员管神枢营红盔将军。每日一员轮直,一员管五军营叉刀官军。
锦衣卫大汉将军一千五百七员名。
府军前卫带刀官四十员。
神枢营红盔将军一千五百员名。把总指挥十六员。明甲将军五百二员名。把总指挥四员。大汉将军八员。
五军营叉刀围子手三千名。把总指挥八员。
勋卫、散骑舍人、无定员。
旗手等二十卫带刀官一百八十员。

凡圣节,正旦,冬至三大朝会及大祀,警戒,册封,御殿等场合,都有掌领侍卫官及锦衣卫大汉将军,神枢营红盔将军等按照一定位次,负责警卫侍从工作.掌管侍卫官头戴凤翅盔,身着锁子甲,腰佩绣春刀;侍卫将军盔甲整齐,佩刀,执金瓜或斧械.
甲胃的具体形制,《明会典》没有记载.十三陵的两对将军像则对其凤翅盔(头黎),顿项云肩(呈布巾状,又称披巾),披膊,臂猎,兽头吞口,抱肚,吊腿(腿裙)及鹤尾,战靴等各部位均雕刻得十分具体形象,且甲片的形式,鹊尾形状,抱肚上的图案等丰富多彩,为人们了解明代侍卫将军的服饰提供了可靠的依据. "
 
So the armoured soldiers depicted in the first scroll are the imperial guard units described in the above text.
 
The text is an extraction from Ming documents, it didnt describe in details what these units were dressed like.
 
However we can refer to the stone guards which are still standing today alongside the "spiritual way" of Ming tomb situated at outskirt of Beijing.
 
 
 
Now compare the second stone guard to the guard depicted from the scroll
 
 
see the armour of the one holding the hammer(which is the same weapon to that of the stone guard is holding), it does actually resemble the armor wore by the stone guard.
 
The stone guards are carved during Ming dynasty, since their outfits do have resemblance to some of the armours depicted in the scroll, there is a good chance the military uniforms depicted in the painting indeed existed during the Ming period.
Besides,
Since the costumes of civil officials are depicted accurately in this scroll,  we should have some confidence in believing that the military personnels depicted in the scroll are also accurate.
 
more pictures of the armour wore by the stone guard.
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 22-Apr-2007 at 14:56
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  Quote intem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 04:55
charioteer, you are my legend. I've always been looking for these scrolls depicting ming dynasty infantry and cavalry clad in armour. Questions, are there any story background with these scrolls and also are these scrolls drawn by a person from ming period, because i would like to know that whether its a replica or something but i hope this isn't a replica. The reason behind is that, if it's a replica thats drawn by a modern day artist they might exaggerate it; for example, if peasants weren't suppose to have armours reality but they tend to draw it so just to exaggerate that even the peasants was acquired to wear one.
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:18
Here is a reconstruction of Ming military outfits.
 
 
 Notice the uniform of Ming soldier to the far right, and compare it with the Ming soldiers depicted in this Korean history drama
you can see there are some resemblance between the two. Perhaps the design of Ming outfits from this drama is based on that reconstructive drawing.


Edited by The Charioteer - 21-Apr-2007 at 06:31
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:08
Another Ming dynasty scroll "倭寇图"(Wo kou tu)depicting Ming army fighting the Japanese pirates.
 
refugees:
 
 
 
Ming army fight the Japanese pirates:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The phrase on the banner of this ship says "to protect the country and to save the people" (护国救民)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 22-Apr-2007 at 13:44
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  Quote The Charioteer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:03
Originally posted by intem

 
I've always hope that who ever drawn this painting scroll could draw it closer so we could actually get a closer view on the armours of those soldiers were wearing.
 
This Ming painting scroll "出警入跸图"(Chu Jing Ru Bi Tu) depicts emperor Wan li (1563~1620A.D) on his way to imperial mausoleum.  
 
A Taiwanese stamp depicting the scene:
 
"入跸图"(Ru bi tu)
 
details from the scroll:
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
A drawing of Ming soldier in armor, accord to the armor depicted in the scroll.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Apr-2007 at 12:44
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