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The Battle for Britain

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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle for Britain
    Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 13:58
Originally posted by gcle2003

I don't recall the Ju87 being used in Britain. The 88 is the one I remember along with the Dornier 17 'flying pencil' and the Heinkel 111.
 
One of the classroom activities we had at school during the war was learning to recognise aircraft types: if you were a bit older than me you also go to work with the Royal Observer Corps. We were taught to recognise the 87 (which was anyway so notorious) but I don't think anyone expected us to see any.
 
I thought it was only used in close tactical air support of the army: a dive bomber wouldn't have been much use in the blitz.
 
I think you are mistaken. Dive bombers were really important in blitz. Blitz, by definition, is the coordinated combination of air and land attack. Dive bombers often was a psycholgical warfare (Fear, you seen the siren screech-like noise from the dive bombers), knock out the important defenses faster than land artillery since dive bombers travel faster than land artillery. In the beginning of war, many German artilleries were still pulled by horses. 
     
   
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  Quote comet9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 21:20
JU87 was certainly used during BOB.
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 21:52
GCLE is right as usual. It was quite unlikely to see a JU 87 over British skies. They suffered heavily over Dunkirk and even worse in the Battle of Britain and were quickly withdrawn.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 04:29
In response to Pekau:
 
I was using the term 'blitz' in the way it is normally used in Britain to refer to the heavy bombing raids on British cities, which I remember quite well.
 
I would agree that that is to some extent a misuse, since the term 'blitzkrieg' originally referred to the land campaigns of 1940, with a combination of fast-moving armour and infantry closely supported by dive bombers. In that kind of 'blitz' of course dive bombers were a central part of the strategy.
 
Generally speaking though you should probably remember in reading English-language sources that 'the blitz' refers to the bombing raids, particularly the night-time ones: in referring to the land campaigns, English sources usually use 'blitzkrieg' in full.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 26-Jan-2007 at 04:30
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 07:06

Oh, thanks for the tip. Obviously I should have used the proper definition. I used "blitz" because I was too lazy to type 'blitzkrieg' in full.

     
   
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  Quote comet9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jan-2007 at 20:01
Originally posted by Paul

GCLE is right as usual. It was quite unlikely to see aJU 87 over British skies.

Some of them arrived above Britain and bombed.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 09:56
Originally posted by comet9

Originally posted by Paul

GCLE is right as usual. It was quite unlikely to see a JU 87 over British skies.

Some of them arrived above Britain and bombed.
I pointed out in a current related thread that the Ju87 was used initially in the early part of the Battle of Britain (not the 'blitz'). It was a disastrous failure and was quickly withdrawn. So Paul was correct - it was unlikely to see a Stuka in British skies, but not impossible.
 
You can only use dive-bombers in daylight (with WW2 technology) and in daylight the Ju87 was a sitting duck for fighters. One RAF pilot shot down five in just a few minutes, though that was a little later in Libya.
 
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  Quote comet9 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 17:12
I'm talking about the story of BOB. Not other district.
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  Quote rommel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:21
 i dont consider that battle a major defeat for the nazis, because it didnt handicapp Germany or limit germanys strength significantly.
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  Quote rommel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:24

am afraid Germany would have successfully invaded Britain if the R.A.F. had been destroyed, because Germany possessed the best equiped army in europe

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  Quote Knights Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 16:30
There is this thing called the English Channel though, and the German invading force would have to face the British Navy before even being able to set foot on land. This could be very dangerous, because if the nazis are defeated, a lot of their army has the potential to be lost. 
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 09:22

The Battle of Britain always makes me misty eyed for courage shown by the British people. The Germans could have invaded, but Hitler backed off every time he had the chance to press home his advantage. One has to ask why he didnt and the real reasons remain obscure. He didnt want an outright invasion; he wanted England to surrender or at least sue for peace. His troops would then march in unimpeded as England became part of the New World Order. He then planned to surround England by the ring of steel - giant fortresses and awesome gun batteries situated on islands around the coast of Britain.

 I know because I have been inside them in the Channel Islands, the only British territory that Germany ever occupied. I have never seen such precision engineering on such a large scale. Overall the Germans acted very polite to the island population for they were under strict instructions to impress and keep the island economy afloat. Many people worked for the Germans for they paid better wages.

 The Nazis hired the Todt Organization to build the fortifications, a hired private organization that used eastern European slave labour. If one collapsed the guards threw him into the concrete for there were plenty more. The islanders and most soldiers were not allowed anywhere near the sites and had no idea of how the tunnels were built.

Early on the British had cracked the enigma code. Hitler suspected something was wrong but never quite figured out what it was. The British seemed clever enough to second guess his major moves that never quite made it for his foes had actual information that enabled them to use effectively use stealth attacks as a major weapon. 

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  Quote PanzerOberst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 17:00
Originally posted by gcle2003

I don't recall the Ju87 being used in Britain. The 88 is the one I remember along with the Dornier 17 'flying pencil' and the Heinkel 111.
 
One of the classroom activities we had at school during the war was learning to recognise aircraft types: if you were a bit older than me you also go to work with the Royal Observer Corps. We were taught to recognise the 87 (which was anyway so notorious) but I don't think anyone expected us to see any.
 
I thought it was only used in close tactical air support of the army: a dive bomber wouldn't have been much use in the blitz.
 
It was used mainly against channel shipping targets and later for the attacks on the Home Chain radar targets. But crippling losses and the British ability to repair the damage quickly (in some cases within 24hrs) led to the stukas being withdrawn from the battle. 
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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jun-2007 at 17:39
Originally posted by Knights

There is this thing called the English Channel though, and the German invading force would have to face the British Navy before even being able to set foot on land. This could be very dangerous, because if the nazis are defeated, a lot of their army has the potential to be lost. 
 
 
The German army was completely inexperienced in amphibious landings, they were in fact attempting to convert canal barges into landing craft.  People more knowledgeable than I have said it would have been a disaster even under optimal conditions.
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 22:00
Originally posted by red clay

Originally posted by Knights

There is this thing called the English Channel though, and the German invading force would have to face the British Navy before even being able to set foot on land. This could be very dangerous, because if the nazis are defeated, a lot of their army has the potential to be lost. 
 
 
The German army was completely inexperienced in amphibious landings, they were in fact attempting to convert canal barges into landing craft.  People more knowledgeable than I have said it would have been a disaster even under optimal conditions.
 
Ditto. The Germans didn't have landing craft and therefore it didn't matter if they jumped to the future and stole rocket-firing penguins with impenetrable Mars-rock armour. I've said this in other threads before: think of how much time and resources the Allies put into the Normandy landings and think of how close-run it was even taking place, let alone its success.
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 02:57
Top ten squadrons, in order of number of aircraft shot, nationality and type of airplane: ( July - November 1940)

sq 303 - 126 1/2 - Polish - Hurricane
sq 602 - 102    - British - Spitfire
sq 603 - 98     - British - Spitfire
sq 92   -   94 2/5- British -Spitfire
sq 501 - 93     - British - Hurricane
sq 41 -    92 2/5 - British - Spitfire
sq 609 - 90 1/3 - British - Spitfire
sq 74   - 86 - British - Spitfire
sq 213 - 81 - British - Hurricane
sq 249 - 75 - British - Hurricane

As you can see overwhelming use of Spitfire is a myth. Hurricane was a very capable airplane. It is also worth noticing RAF was a very international air force. It had Polish, Czech squadrons and more nationalities flying in British squadrons.



Edited by cavalry4ever - 23-Mar-2008 at 02:57
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  Quote Jonathan4290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 21:41
Definitely cavalry4ever. British squadrons also included Australians, Belgians, Canadians, French, Irish, Jamaicans, New Zealanders, Palestinians, Rhodesians, South Africans and Americans in addition to the Poles and Czechs.
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 22:16
Originally posted by Jonathan4290

Definitely cavalry4ever. British squadrons also included Australians, Belgians, Canadians, French, Irish, Jamaicans, New Zealanders, Palestinians, Rhodesians, South Africans and Americans in addition to the Poles and Czechs.


I believe only Poles and Czechs had their own squadrons in the Battle of Britain. There were many mixed squadrons. Poles had squadrons 302 and 303, Czechs squadrons 310 and 312.
What was interesting that Czech ace Joseph Frantisek flew with 303 (Polish squadron).

Edited by cavalry4ever - 23-Mar-2008 at 22:55
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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-May-2008 at 03:48
Originally posted by rommel

 i dont consider that battle a major defeat for the nazis, because it didnt handicapp Germany or limit germanys strength significantly.


It was a first major defeat in the field Germans thought they dominated. Also a number of pilots and airplanes shot was staggering as Germans always had problems with mass producing aircraft. I don't think Luftwaffe had ever regained initiative on the western front.

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  Quote Peteratwar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2008 at 10:22
Originally posted by jacobtowne

Pekau wrote:
"German bombers knocking out the Britain's radars."
I'd like someone else's assessment here. I've been under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that German bombers failed to destroy the British coastal radar towers.

In one of my books there is a photograph of German troops practicing boarding and debarking  "assault craft" prior to the scheduled Sea Lion operation. The boat is a flat-bottomed, flat-topped, river and canal barge with low gunwales of the sort known in Northern Germany as Binnenschiffe.  And these people expected to cross the English Channel in these things?
JT
 
Re Radar Masts, yes you are right the Germans did not fully understand their significance. They did knock out one but it was back on line within hours. They were difficult targets when there were easier ones around.
 
Yes, they were expected to cross the channel in those!!!
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