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pekau
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Topic: Which country in ww2 kicke the most...... Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 23:44 |
Really? Stalin urged the Allies to attack Nazi Germany? It's logical, now you mention it...
Well, invasion to Poland was indeed a risky gamble... but for him to fulfill the world domination scheme, invasion of Poland had to be done. I don't think it was a foolish move. I mean, what else could he have done? Just invading straight to France is even worse, Soviet Union is beyond German's capability, and Balkans would just give Allies more time for war preparation. By invading Poland, he would be able to attack France soon after, and preventing extra time that the Allies would get had the Germans invaded to east or south.
Yes, Hitler's book did alarmed many others... but how else could he have rose to power? As I have said before, all risks comes with consqeunces, and rewards. Hitler, again, gambled for dictator power over Germany, but alerted other leaders around the world. Hitler wanted power and German dominance over the Europe and, eventually, the world. How else can be rise to power? He quickly got all Germans' attention because Mein Kampf justified that it was not Germans' fault that they lost WWI (Which encouraged many Germans because Germans never lost a major war. The German generals simply called for truce since they realized that they could not win the war. Germans were outraged. They propaganda said they were winning, and original border of German Empire was never invaded, except when Russians suprise attacked, but they were easily countered.) They lost because of Jews, Slaviks, and other factors that were to blame, not the Germans. He also noted that Germans were pure "Aryan race", giving the Germans sense of national pride that they forgot ever since the end of WWI and the economical crisis. He promised that the problems that weakened Germany would be eliminated, and he would work to improve German economy, and make Germany a powerful nation more worthy than others. For many unemployed, broke, and other unfortunate Germans... Hitler was like Jesus Christ to them. He promised glory, jobs, honor and a chance to make their nation great again, and a chance to attempt a revenge against their old nemesis - French and Russians. Heck, tons of Germans would go for Hitler. He brought hope, chance for prosperity, and for revenge. Heck, I would go for it. Most of Germans were broke, anyway.
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gcle2003
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 05:57 |
Where, as a matter of interest, do you get the idea from that Hitler was after 'world domination'?
Maybe you could argue he believed that so-called 'Aryans' should be the master race, but he didn't believe that Germans were the only 'Aryans'.
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:40 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Where, as a matter of interest, do you get the idea from that Hitler was after 'world domination'?
Maybe you could argue he believed that so-called 'Aryans' should be the master race, but he didn't believe that Germans were the only 'Aryans'. |
Of course. Hitler always admired Great Britain, and he also allowed many other white people to join his cause. Many French, and other Europeans joined Nazi Germany's cause, such as joining SS.
I think he wanted ethnic cleansing in the world. Jews, Slaviks, Blacks, and other races that he considered as subhumans. Furthermore, his goal was obviously world domination. When a power hungry leader gains land, he wants more. And more and more. Until the world is his. What? You think Hitler could have settled fro Europe and North Africa? Remember Operation Barbarossa? Remember Operation Sea Lion? Nazi Germany would have continued their ambition to conquer the world like other grea leaders, like Alexander the Great. It's only logical.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 21:38 |
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It's not logical. Hitler had no ambition to conquer the world, that is a social construction orginating from post-war propaganda.
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 21:45 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
It's not logical. Hitler had no ambition to conquer the world, that is a social construction orginating from post-war propaganda. |
How so? He won't stand for the Slaviks in the East. He want purification of the world. Is this propaganda. I think his authorization of countless genocides is the living proof for that.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 21:58 |
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Many people have had genocidal agendas in the past, without the desire to conquer the world. He did not want purification of the world, he wanted purification of German lands.
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:02 |
So Soviet Union, North Africa, Britain Balkan regions... they were German land... then. Right?
I don't think that Hitler wanted world in the beginning.
As he won more victories and lands, his ambition, pride and ego clouded his judgment. What if Hitler settled for France? What if Napoleon settled fro European continent, excluding Britain, Russia, Portugal and Spain? What if Alexander settled for Persia? Thinks do not turn out they way as people usually intend.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:06 |
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Hitler didn't get much of a choice in the matter. The allies were not going to allow him to keep Europe and Africa under his control, as he would simply be able to build his strength far more rapidly than them.
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:17 |
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There you go. So he declares war to the world... he will continue his ambition to conquer his enemies until there is none left. World Domination complete.
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:21 |
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Actually the world declared war on him.
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:24 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Actually the world declared war on him. |
There you go. Hitler would then accept this as the challenge, and he will eliminate every single soul that resist him until all that lived on earth obeys and agrees with Hitler. Operation World Domination Complete. Hail Hitler!
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Slick
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:33 |
Finland. They pwned the Soviets so much. They were outnumbered, had inferior technology, and all the disadvantages against the Russians except for skill in the terrain they fought in and competent leadership. They still kicked ass...
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:36 |
Originally posted by Slick
Finland. They pwned the Soviets so much. They were outnumbered, had inferior technology, and all the disadvantages against the Russians except for skill in the terrain they fought in and competent leadership. They still kicked ass... |
I heard their impressive achievements. While the Germans were powning France, Soviet began to advance to Finland but the resistance was heavy. I dont remember exactly, but was Finland taken over anyway, or did Soviet made some truce? I am guessing that despite Finlands noble resistance, they were conquered by the Russians.
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Slick
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:39 |
Well, they weren't conquered in World War II. They defeated the Russians in the Winter War, and then won some other war (I know mainly the winter war, not the other one :[). At some point, however, I think they sort of became aligned with the Soviets. I forget exactly what happened to Finland during the aftermath Cold War.
Edited by Slick - 04-Feb-2007 at 22:42
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:42 |
Originally posted by pekau
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Actually the world declared war on him. |
There you go. Hitler would then accept this as the challenge, and he will eliminate every single soul that resist him until all that lived on earth obeys and agrees with Hitler. Operation World Domination Complete. Hail Hitler!
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Obviously no matter what is said, you'll find a way to make it support your argument.
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pekau
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Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 22:50 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Originally posted by pekau
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Actually the world declared war on him. |
There you go. Hitler would then accept this as the challenge, and he will eliminate every single soul that resist him until all that lived on earth obeys and agrees with Hitler. Operation World Domination Complete. Hail Hitler!
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Obviously no matter what is said, you'll find a way to make it support your argument.
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Sorry for being ignorant... I have this obsession to win... which usually ends with failure. But seriosuly, though... isn't that what world domination is about? Eliminating all enemies until there are none left? Convince me.
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 04:40 |
Originally posted by pekau
Originally posted by Slick
Finland. They pwned the Soviets so much. They were outnumbered, had inferior technology, and all the disadvantages against the Russiansexcept for skill in the terrain they fought in and competent leadership. They still kicked ass... |
<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">I heard their impressive achievements. While the Germans were powning </SPAN><?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">France</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">, Soviet began to advance to </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">Finland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA"> but the resistance was heavy. I dont remember exactly, but was </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">Finland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA"> taken over anyway, or did Soviet made some truce? I am guessing that despite </SPAN><st1:country-region><st1:place><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">Finland</SPAN></st1:place></st1:country-region><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-font-family: SimSun; mso-ansi-: EN-US; mso-fareast-: ZH-CN; mso-bidi-: AR-SA">s noble resistance, they were conquered by the Russians. </SPAN> |
Nope.
The battle of Tali-Ihantala in 1944 was the serious Soviet attempt to conquer Finland. Helsinki was to be captured in three weeks and Finland turned into a Soviet Republic.
The Finns defeated the attempt, after which the Soviet decided that there was obviously enough fight left in the Finns to make taking Finland out too costly. Instead they offered terms. One of them being that the Finns declare war of Germany, which the did and proceeded to defeat the German army in Finnish Lappland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tali-Ihantala
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gcle2003
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 05:20 |
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Actually the world declared war on him. |
Hmm...France, Britain and the commonwealth except for Ireland did. So eventually did Turkey and Brazil and some other minor countries. Hitler declared war on the US, the USSR and most western European countries. Italy switched sides in 1943. Japan was an ally.
Pretty well everyone else stayed neutral. (If I missed anyone, sorry.)
Originally posted by pekau
So Soviet Union, North Africa, Britain Balkan regions... they were German land... then. Right?
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You're confusing what he wanted to do with what he was forced into doing. The German aim was essentially expansion to the east, taking back historically 'German' lands (the Second Reich and the Austrian Empire) and annexing parts of old Tsarist Russia.
He hoped - even expected - that the Western countries would simply allow him to do that. When they refused and declared war, he had to fight to guard his rear. Notably, none of the territory overrun by Germany to the West (except Luxembourg) was annexed to the Reich.
Certainly at any time Germany would happily have signed a peace treaty with Britain. Without one, the North African campaign had to be opened up, partly because the Italian allies were being kicked out, more because a direct attack on Egypt would threaten communications with India.
(Incidentally while people frequently quote the parallel between Hitler's and Napoleon's attacks on Russia, they tend to overlook the similar parallel between Napoleon's Egyptian campaign and Hitler's, both of them ending in failure after some initial success.)
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I don't think that Hitler wanted world in the beginning.
As he won more victories and lands, his ambition, pride and ego clouded his judgment. What if Hitler settled for France? What if Napoleon settled fro European continent, excluding Britain, Russia, Portugal and Spain? What if Alexander settled for Persia? Thinks do not turn out they way as people usually intend. |
Hitler didn't want France. He wanted to take over Slav territory (continuing really the historical push of the Prussians eastward). He failed to take it. So there was nothing for him to settle for.
And incidentally without Japan there is absolutely no hope for Germany winning a global war.
Edited by gcle2003 - 05-Feb-2007 at 05:21
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 06:54 |
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Hitler is on record as saying he might happily leave Britain their overseas empire. Hardly indicates ambitions of world conquest.
The battle of Bir-Hakeim, where the Free French emerged as a credible fighting force, provoked Hitler to comment that a top post-war priority would be a powerful enough system of alliance to discourage any French dreams of another war of revenge. Doesn't indicate any underlying assumption about world conquest.
It seems Hitler was fairly traditional in his view of great-power politics. His assumptions would seem to have been that the post-war world would still be dominated by Germany, the UK, the US, France, Italy, Japan.
Germany should of course come out on top, all Germanic people should perhaps be gathered in the Reich (sorry Scandinavia), and eastern Europe and Russia would be the exceptional place where things would really be shaken up. But the rest of the world would be pretty much left as they were.
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pekau
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Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 08:21 |
Originally posted by gcle2003
Originally posted by Zaitsev
Actually the world declared war on him. |
Hmm...France, Britain and the commonwealth except for Ireland did. So eventually did Turkey and Brazil and some other minor countries. Hitler declared war on the US, the USSR and most western European countries. Italy switched sides in 1943. Japan was an ally.
Pretty well everyone else stayed neutral. (If I missed anyone, sorry.)
Originally posted by pekau
So Soviet Union, North Africa, Britain Balkan regions... they were German land... then. Right?
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You're confusing what he wanted to do with what he was forced into doing. The German aim was essentially expansion to the east, taking back historically 'German' lands (the Second Reich and the Austrian Empire) and annexing parts of old Tsarist Russia.
He hoped - even expected - that the Western countries would simply allow him to do that. When they refused and declared war, he had to fight to guard his rear. Notably, none of the territory overrun by Germany to the West (except Luxembourg) was annexed to the Reich.
Certainly at any time Germany would happily have signed a peace treaty with Britain. Without one, the North African campaign had to be opened up, partly because the Italian allies were being kicked out, more because a direct attack on Egypt would threaten communications with India.
(Incidentally while people frequently quote the parallel between Hitler's and Napoleon's attacks on Russia, they tend to overlook the similar parallel between Napoleon's Egyptian campaign and Hitler's, both of them ending in failure after some initial success.)
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I don't think that Hitler wanted world in the beginning.
As he won more victories and lands, his ambition, pride and ego clouded his judgment. What if Hitler settled for France? What if Napoleon settled fro European continent, excluding Britain, Russia, Portugal and Spain? What if Alexander settled for Persia? Thinks do not turn out they way as people usually intend. |
Hitler didn't want France. He wanted to take over Slav territory (continuing really the historical push of the Prussians eastward). He failed to take it. So there was nothing for him to settle for.
And incidentally without Japan there is absolutely no hope for Germany winning a global war. |
Yes, but like I said... he didn't want world domination in the beginning. The Allies would not allow Hitler to restore German Empire. So Germans would fight back and eliminate all resistance, which is the world... respectively. That's why Germans entered Paris. That's why Germans bombed London. That's why German submarines sank Allied merchant ships. That's why Germans moved into Balkans. Whether Germans wanted world domination or not, they had no choice but to expand their land. Ironically, this is among many reasons why empires decline...
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