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Which country in ww2 kicke the most......

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Poll Question: Italy
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
34 [41.98%]
2 [2.47%]
5 [6.17%]
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19 [23.46%]
16 [19.75%]
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Which country in ww2 kicke the most......
    Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 00:16
Originally posted by Arxileas

Originally posted by Dilvish

*Mental Note*
I choose the countries that where the elite of global fighting in ww2


Greetings all new member. Clap

Firstly I apoligies if someone has already mentioned this?

Delvish fair enough you chose the elite countries of ww2. Doesn't Greece fit in this category? It may have been a small country then.

I mean it was Greece who brought the Third Rich "Hitler" down to it's knees, when the entire world was loosing hope agasn't fasism. First Greece won agains't Italy then Germany all on her own, then for the allies hope to be rekindled "a new hope"...And won.
 
There is obviously no question about heroic Greek resistance against the Axis. However, their military capability was just not enough to change the tide of war. They repelled Italian invasions with ease, and held Germans long enough for much of the British reinforcement to escape from hopeless battle in the Balkans. (Deja vu, British faced similar situation in France)
 
But compare the Greek's involvement in WWII compared to Soviet Union, British Empire, and Nazi Germany. First of all, WWII would not even exist without German involvement. Germans had to fight against Soviet Union, British Empire, French, Greek resistance, America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and other allies all by themselves. (Yes, Italians fought too. But based on their achievement and their actions only limited in North African front, and they did not show much success) and Japanese Empire was just holding some American forces in Pacific. Some significance, but not so much compared to Germans.
 
 
     
   
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 00:17

By the way, welcome Arxileas.Big%20smile

     
   
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  Quote Arxileas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 02:10
Pekau

There is obviously no question about heroic Greek resistance against the Axis. However, their military capability was just not enough to change the tide of war.


I beg to differ, it was greece's involvment  that changed the tide for World War 2

Here is some facts I've had for a few years, on who was the deciding factor of the war / or changed the tide of the war in bold;

 Greece-World War 2 (28/10/1940) Oxi Day.

Today, very few of us in the cyberspace community appreciate the 28th of October 1940. Historians have written much about various turning points in our planet's history, but this turning point of the Second World War is not well known by most of us.

The scene is in Europe, in Rome, Italy during the autumn of 1940. The dictator, Benito Mussolini, is feeling melancholic and inadequate. The reasons for his frustrations are that his ally, Adolf Hitler and the Germans, have been conquering the nations of Europe: Czechoslovakia, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, Romania, and Austria. Their combined population was close to 140 million. Mighty France, a nation of 43 million, had collapsed and surrendered after only 17 days of fighting in an agonizing and humiliating defeat.

Mussolini was being confronted with faits accomplis, as Hitler would inform him that the Germans had conquered a country three days after the fact. Mussolini decided to show Hitler that the Italians also could conquer Europe, and have Hitler "learn of the conquest from the newspapers."

Mussolini's choice for this mighty show of Italian strength was Greece, a small country of seven million people versus Italy's 44 million. The disparity in their armed forces was even greater: Italy had close to ten times the firepower of Greece in its army and navy. Italy's large air force had total air superiority since Greece had a very small defensive air force.

Now that the choice was set, the invasion route was selected: the Albanian-Greek border. All that remained would be to deliver an ultimatum to Greece. The insulting ultimatum demanded that Greece allow Italian troops to occupy the country (i.e., surrender) or Italy would declare war and invade Greece. Mussolini had given the Greek Prime Minister Metaxas three hours to reply. After reading the demands in the early morning hours of the 28th of October 1940, he rejected the ultimatum and replied with a single Hellenic word: "OXI!" (pronounced Ohee, meaning "NO!"). It has become a Hellenic battle cry that blooms defiantly every 28th of October on walls throughout Greece and Cyprus, and in the thousands of Hellenic communities in almost every country around the world. These Hellenic communities today number more than ten million Hellenes (Greeks) outside Greece.

Mussolini never waited for Metaxas' reply. Before the ultimatum had expired, five heavily armed divisions of Italian soldiers began moving from Italian-controlled Albania over the border into Greece. Expectations of an easy Italian victory soon evaporated. The quick march to Athens for an Italian victory parade never materialized. After a 25-kilometer advance inside Greece, the 200,000 Italian troops were halted for days by a ragged army of Greek soldiers in mismatched uniforms and shepherd's clothes.

Though Italians outnumbered them more than two to one, the Greeks astonished the Italian generals with their courage, their tenacity, and their limited artillery's precision. The Greek forces had six mortars for each division against the invader's sixty. All Greeks helped in any way they could. The courageous women of Greece supplied clothing, food, and support to the defense of their country in very difficult winter conditions. Sometimes, large groups of women would stand arm-in-arm for hours in icy rivers and streams to slow the waters enough to permit the movement of equipment and supplies to the front.

Within four weeks of the invasion, those undermanned, under-supplied, and underfed Greeks drove the Italian army back into Albania and kept on going, continuing the pursuit into Albania. By this time, Mussolini had replaced the commanding general several times, and finally assumed command of the military campaign himself. He tried to rouse his troops to victory with speeches reminding them of the great legacy of their predecessors, the ancient Romans, but without success.

The Greeks pursued the Italians more than 60 kilometers into Albania, and by December of 1940, the Greek army had liberated the southern third of Albania, better known as Northern Epirus. A Greek populated area since ancient times There was even serious concern by the Italians that the Greek armed forces would cross the Adriatic Sea and invade Italy itself. By the end of the five-month campaign, in March 1941, the Greeks had dealt the Italian armed forces some unexpected numbers: 12,500 Italians returned home badly mutilated by the fighting; 13,800 were buried in the frozen soil of Greece; 25,000 were missing in action; and 40,000 were POWs held by the Greek Army.

We should remember that the USA was still neutral, and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a year away. The USA was not involved in any fighting then, but all the major USA newspapers and periodicals such as LIFE and TIME carried cover stories about the Greeks and the history that they were making. In the USA, Greeks and Greek-Americans of all ages were showered with admiration at school and work in response to the historic events.

The entire Western world, discouraged and fearful of the Axis powers and the growing ugly war, took hope from this incredible victory. It was a double first: the first defeat of the Axis powers and the first liberation of territory captured by the Axis powers. British Prime Minister Winston Churchill said of the Greeks: "Today we say that Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight like Greeks." However, there was history still to be made by the Greeks.

The Greeks outraged Hitler and the Germans. A small military power like Greece had succeeded in defeating their ally, Italy. The Germans invaded Greece in April of 1941, and after nearly two months of fierce fighting, overwhelmed the defiant Greeks but never fully defeated them as the Greeks had one of the most dynamic and relentless resistance movements. The Greek army included disabled soldiers from the Albanian campaign against the Italians, ordinary citizens, teenagers, and the elderly. On the Greek island of Crete there were few regular Greek army soldiers, since they were on the Greek mainland still fighting the Germans, but the ordinary Greek citizens were there: elderly peasant men and women with hunting guns, butcher knives, and agricultural tools slitting the throats of German paratroopers as they landed. About 10,000 German soldiers, young men in their prime, died trying to invade Crete.

Even Greek prison convicts demanded and were released from jail so that they could fight. The Greek freedom fighters took the lives of many German troops and destroyed much German equipment. The Germans were forced to divert 50 battalions to Greece, though they desperately needed them on the Eastern front.

The six months of fighting caused by the Greek resistance of the Axis powers also delayed Germany's invasion and campaign against what is today the Commonwealth of Independent States (the former Soviet Union). The fierce resistance of the Greeks in Epiros, Macedonia, Thessalia, Roumeli, Attiki, Peloponnesos, Crete, and the rest of Greece to the Germans caused delays. It overturned German plans to occupy Moscow before the onset of the heavy and deadly Russian winter.

This was something the Germans had not planned and thus were unprepared. The German war machine literally bogged down and froze. The Russians were successful in repulsing and defeating the Germans. This was a major turning point of World War 2. This signalled the beginning of the end of the German Third Reich. The sacrifice and success of the Greek armed forces, the Greek guerrillas, and the ordinary, anonymous Greek citizens drew the admiration of the free world and kindled hope for the final victory of the Allied powers.

We should note that Greek Prime Minister Metaxas was also a military dictator. Yet the Greeks united behind the belief that the defense of their country, which they wished to become more democratic again, was very important. That is another symbolism and irony of the 28th of October 1940, that the Greek people not only fought the fascist Axis powers invading Greece, but also later fought the extremist forces that were trying to rule Greece and not allow it to be a democracy.

The Greeks faithfully met their obligations to their allies, with heroism and self-sacrifice. As a small country, the human sacrifice and mega-devastation Greece suffered in World War 2 were much more than those of the almost all other countries that were on the victorious Allied side. In World War 2, Greece lost one of the highest percentages of its population in comparison to the other members of the victorious Allies. Greece lost, on a percentage basis, about 12% of its population, meaning about one million people.

The world leadership of the time, including Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, recognized the decisive contribution of the Greeks. The timeless character of the modern Greek was shining brightly for all to see: passionate, determined, and proud.

The next time you see or communicate with a Greek, tell them that you remember the 28th of October 1940. Send this article to others who may not know this important day in our planet's history. On that day, Greece, the birthplace of democracy said "NO!" to fascism, and defended its birthright despite overwhelming and unfavorable odds to yet another triumph. On that day, Greece, the ancient cradle of democracy and Western civilization, helped save democracy in its darkest hour. People have brought that birthright of democracy to most of our planet and for that we should all be proud. Interestingly, the 28th of October is also the anniversary of the opening of a symbol patterned after one of the Seven Wonders of the World, the Colossus of Rhodes in Greece. This symbol of democracy is the Statue of Liberty on a small island between New Jersey and New York, USA.

This day is an inspiration to all those who cherish democracy and freedom. For when the world was a risk, an ancient and brave people were willing to risk everything. The ancient Greeks invented democracy, and the 21st century Greeks are still defending it. All of those who believe in democracy and freedom want Greece to continue as a vigorous and vibrant democracy into the Third Millennium. Hellenic civilization is in its 10,000th year and is still a major cultural force.

-------------------------------

Info is very accurate and was taken from a web site which no longer is available. Whoever this link backs it up;
http://agrino.org/greeklibrary/projects/World_War_II/index.html

But compare the Greek's involvement in WWII compared to Soviet Union, British Empire, and Nazi Germany


See above.

First of all, WWII would not even exist without German involvement


True but it should be if the Amercinas had not financed the Germans then ww2 wouldn't have happened, that's for another topic. Good piont though!

This topic is who kicked some B**Ts Greece with less population then the ones mention Greece was the deciding factor or the out come of ww2. No doubt the Astralians have / had an excellent army, no doubt about it.

Sorry for any bad typos or any errors Good night.

Thanks for the welcome Pekau Smile


Edited by Arxileas - 14-Mar-2007 at 02:15
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 16:26
Originally posted by Ellin

Don't know which country during WWII kicked the most arse,
but the Greeks sure kicked some good arse as well.
 
 
Greeks in World War II

 

Greece, during WWII, was the only country

that was forced to confront the armies of

four countries simultaneously:

           

Albania

Italy

Germany

Bulgaria

 

 
I would prefer to fight these 4 countries than like Poland against:
Germany, Soviet Union and Slovakia ( small role ) .

 

 

Duration of resistance (in days):

 

Greece  219

Norway  61

France  43 (superpower at the time)

Poland  30

Belgium  18

Holland  4

Yugoslavia  3

Czechoslavakia  0

Luxemburg  0

Denmark  0 

 

Must be noticed that Norwegia and Grece was helped by British and Germany didn't put all their power there. 

 

Total Greek losses caused by occupying power

 

Albanians  1,165

Italians  8,000 

Bulgarians  25,000

Germans  50,000

 

 

 

Total losses in population percentages

 

Greece  10%

Soviet Union  2.8%

Holland  2.2%

France  2%

Poland  1.8%

Yugoslavia  1.7%

Belgium  1.5%

 

This is completely wrong. In Poland 6 milions dead of 35 milions which gives over 15%. In SU the percentage was very similar to Poland. 

 

And here's what other prominent figures had to say about her..

 

 

Quotes on/about the Greeks

 

 

For the sake of historical truth I must verify that

only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted

us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death.. 

 

(Adolf Hitler speech delivered to Reichstag on 4, May 1941)

 

 

  

The word heroism I am afraid does not render

the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks,

which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome

of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII,

for the human freedom and dignity.  If it were not for

the bravery of the Greeks and their courage,

the outcome of WWII would be undetermined. 

 
(Winston Churchill British parliament 24, April 1941)

 

 

Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes. 

Now we shall say:  The heroes fight like Greeks. 

 
(Winston Churchill speech BBC first days of Greco-Italian war)

 

 

I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not

live long to thank the Greek people, whose resistance

decided WWII.

 

(Joseph Stalin speech Moscow radio station
31 Jan, 1943 after victory of Stalingrad and capitulation
of German 6th Army Field Marshal Von Paulus).

 

 

If the Russian people managed to raise resistance

at the doors of Moscow to halt and reverse the

German torrent, they owe it to the Greek people,

who delayed the German divisions during the time

they could bring us to our knees. 

 
(George Constantinovich Zhoukov Field Marshal

of Soviet Army a note from his memoirs)

 

 

Regardless of what future historians shall say,

what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini

an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive

for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the

Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks,

that she upset the chronological order of all German

High Commands plans and thus brought a general

reversal of the entire course of the war and we won.

 
(Sir Robert Antony Eden Minister of War and the

Exterior of Britain 1940-45, Prime Minister of Britain

1955-57 speech from British parliament 24, Sept 1942).

 

 

 

 

It would not be an exaggeration to say that Greece

upset the plans of Germany in their entirety forcing her

to postpone the attack on Russia for six weeks. 

We wonder what would have been Soviet Unions

position without Greece.

 
(Sir Harold Leofric George Alexander British field Marshal

during WWII speech from British parliament 28, Oct 1941)

 

 

I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel

for the heroic resistance of the people and the leaders of Greece.

 
(Charles De Gaul speech French parliament after end of WWII)

 

 

 

Maurice Schumann Minister of the exterior of France

1969-73, member of French Academy 1974:

 

Greece is the symbol of the tortured, bloodied but live

Europe.  Never a defeat was so honourable for those who

suffered it.

 
(From a message of his he addressed from BBC of London

to the enslaved peoples of Europe 28, April 1941, the day

Hitler occupied Athens after a 6 month war against Mussolini

and 6 weeks against Hitler).

 

 

You fight unarmed and won, small against big. 

We owe you gratitude, because you gave us time to

defend ourselves.  As Russians and as people we thank you.

 
(Moscow radio station when Hitler attacked USSR).

 

 

The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the

military and that surprises always await us. 

 
(Benito Mussolini 10, May 1941 speech)

 

 

On the 28th October, 1940, Greece was given a deadline

of 3 hours to decide on war or peace, but even if  3 days

or 3 weeks or 3 years were given, the response would have

been the same.  The Greeks taught dignity throughout the centuries. 

When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to

question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the

proud spirit of freedom.

 
(Franklin D Roosevelt US President 1933-45)

 

 

 

The heroic struggle of the Greek people

Against Germanys attack, after she so thunderously
defeated the Italians in their attempt to invade

the Greek soil, filled the hearts of the American people

with enthusiasm and moved their compassion.

(Roosevelt)

 

 

 

On 10 April 1941, after the Greek capitulation to Germany,

the northern forts of Greece surrendered.

 

The Germans express their admirations to Greek soldiers,

declared that they were honoured and proud to have as

their adversary such an army and request that the Greek
Commandant inspect the German army in a demonstration
of honour and recognition.

 

The German flag was raised only after the complete withdrawal

of the Greek army.

 

A German officer of the air force declared to the commander

of the Eastern Macedonia division group, Lieutenant

General Dedes, that the Greek Army was the first army on
which the Stuka fighter planes did not cause panic.

Your soldiers, he said. Instead of fleeing frantically, as they did

in France and Poland, were shooting at us from their positions.

 

 

Only  we..never counted the enemy in battle.  (Aeschylus)

 
 
So after all that.. beats me why Greece was left off the list/poll !!
 
Also, like to add that it makes no difference to me if they were talking about Papua New Guineans.. I'd still be paying homage.  Just a bonus
it happens to be about my people. Tongue
 
The above also implicates yet another trait (fearlessness, bravery etc)
that bind the modern Greeks with their ancestors.  So a big up yours
to those who like to disassociate the two. Wink
 
Not only did they sacrifice themselves for their country and for freedom, but also for the love of their fellow man (be them of Greek or non Greek
origin)..
 
And I'll give but one example.
My auntie who was living at Crete at the time, who was only
13 years of age mind you.. sacrificed her life to save two
English soldiers.. she hid them in an in-ground wine vat and
camouflaged the opening with foliage and the like.. and then
she also hid her boss' gun (knowing the Germans were about
to inspect the premises) under her skirt, unbeknownst to her at
the time, that the gun wasn't loaded after all.
 
If that ain't ballsy, don't know what is.
 
I agree Greeks fought very well but there is no Poland as well so I can't see how Grece would be on the poll instead of Poland.
 
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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 00:33
 
Originally posted by Arxileas


All Greeks helped in any way they could. The courageous women of Greece supplied clothing, food, and support to the defense of their country in very difficult winter conditions. Sometimes, large groups of women would stand arm-in-arm for hours in icy rivers and streams to slow the waters enough to permit the movement of equipment and supplies to the front.


The Greek army included disabled soldiers from the Albanian campaign against the Italians, ordinary citizens, teenagers, and the elderly. On the Greek island of Crete there were few regular Greek army soldiers, since they were on the Greek mainland still fighting the Germans, but the ordinary Greek citizens were there: elderly peasant men and women with hunting guns, butcher knives, and agricultural tools slitting the throats of German paratroopers as they landed. About 10,000 German soldiers, young men in their prime, died trying to invade Crete.


spot on.. and such an intrinsic part of our nature/history.
 
Every Greek, or anyone who has a penchant for military history
should get their hands on the dvd "The 11th Day".. which reflects
on the Cretan resistance.  It's a must, you won't be disappointed.
 
 
 
 
The following are excerpts/eyewitness accounts/quotes from the documentary.
 
 
 

Because Mussolinis failed invasion of Greece would be a costly

liability for Axis forces, Hitler was forced to commit German troops

to the task.

 

Hitlers elite German paratroopers, The Fallschirmjager (sky hunters)

made the first airborne infantry assaults in history.

 

8100 German paratroopers dropped from 530 aircraft, making Crete

the largest and most ambitious operation. (ie operation Mercury)

 

3764 of 8100 were killed in the first 4 days with 1600 wounded.

 

After the first day of fighting, the casualties suffered by the 7th

parachute division had exceeded the total number of German

soldiers killed in the entire war to date.

 
Crete, became the graveyard of German paratroopers. 
 
----
 

There was no Greek army on Crete at the time as they had been

fighting on the mainland. 

 

All citizens, men and women of all ages fought with what

little weapons they had (even using sticks and knives).

 

----

 

The Greek population in civilian dress, has taken part in the

fighting, any Greek civilian captured with a firearm in his hands

is to be shot immediately.

 

Hostages are to be taken from their villages.  If acts of hostility

take place against the German army, these hostages will be

shot.

 

Despite these orders, it didn't deter the Cretan iron will and

dedication.  The civilians continued dispersing food

and supplies (guns, bullets, cigarettes) where they were needed.

They were also the eyes and ears for the rebels.

 

The Germans didnt expect little children to be field intelligence

people.  One teen, happened to be carrying crucial information for the

guerrilla fighters (maps, codes), that he had hidden within his umbrella.

He had been stopped at a checkpoint.  He closed his umbrella and put it

down on the ground while he was being body searched.  They obviously

found nothing on him, so he then casually picked up his umbrella

and went on his merry way.  LOL

 
----
 

The Cretan civilian insurgency was, for the Germans unprecedented

in both shape and potency.

 

Because of the contributions of Cretes women and children, the

guerrilla fighters were able to conduct unusually ambitious and

unusually lethal attacks.

 

General Commandant Alexander Andre;

 
The courage of the Cretans facing the firing squad is legendary. 

Cretans turn to mythical figures.  They are so proud during their

tragic moment of death that one can hardly fail to admire their

courage.  When executions were to take place.  I would leave

my desk and walk out to the balcony, just to watch and admire

those proud people.  Nowhere else have I witnessed such

defiance to death, such love for freedom, than on Crete.

 

----

 

"The German reprisals and executions only brutalised the

population and encouraged them to commit more acts of resistance. 

Creating a fertile ground for the S.O.E. (Special Operations Executive)

to supply weapons, grenades, mines etc, to help the Cretan

resistances expand dramatically".

 
----
 

Bandovas and George Petrakogiorgis leaders who formed the first

group of resistance fighters.  They became the natural liaison for

British Intelligence.

 

In reference to a confrontation Petrakogiorgi's guerrillas had with

the Germans:

 

The Germans held every advantage.  They had high ground.

They shouldve been able to destroy the small Cretan band but

the reverse happen.  The Cretans managed to put over 400 Germans

to shame.

 
 

Petrakogiorgis command Apano tous palikaria mou, thanato

stous barbarous (ie On them my brave ones, death to the barbarians)

gave us that added strength to charge at them.  We became like

wild animals and attacked from all directions.  And I remember

seeing one German who threw his backpack and gun and running

like a wild goat.  Although we were only 18, they had no idea

how many we were.  I have the feeling that they thought that

behind every tree was a guerilla.

 

also

 

The Germans had high ground, they should have killed us all.

They became confused.  The Germans in the mountains were nothing.

 

Petrakogiorgis lost 7 of 18 men on that fateful day.  The latest and

most audacious attempt by German forces to capture the iconic

resistance leader and his infamous leader.

 

Because of the overwhelming odds against them, the battle of Trahili,

became one of the most celebrated events of the Cretan resistance.

 
----
 

Major Patrick Leigh Fermor (age 25 at time) and Sargeant Stanley

Moss, of the SOE, dressed as German jacket police corporals and

had managed to detain, at a pseudo checkpoint, the then General

Commandant of Crete (Heinrich Kreipe).  The stolen car was

then abandoned with a note for the High Commander by Fermor,
stating that they had captured their commanding Officer as a
prisoner of war and a p.s. that they were sorry to leave the
motor car behind. LOL

 

The German General pleaded with Fermor Please dont leave me

under the authority of these savages.  Fermor's response;

These people are civilised, you are the ones who are the savages.

 

The General was well treated by the Cretans and the British,

much to his surprise, and after only 18 days had been evacuated
to the British headquarters in Cairo.

On Sept 1, 1944, less than 4 months after the abduction of Kreipe,

Germany began its withdrawal from Crete.

 

 

 

Chase Brandon CIA

 
Military historians always talk about the fabulous French resistance

movement.  They often talk about the Dutch resistance.  The truth is,

those, absolutely, were failures.  If you look at what happened in Crete.

Those incredibly, brave, dedicated, freedom driven people, did

something quite remarkable in history.  They held the Germans

at bay for 4 very long years, probably slowed Germanys march

across Europe down, and in the end, left in the annals of military history, the most consequential and successful military insurgency

ever.


"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Mar-2007 at 00:37

ps  my vote from that list went to USSR as they were the ones who put the finishing touches on the Germans and brought WWII to a halt.

"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Mar-2007 at 21:18
 
Originally posted by konstantinius

Good post Ellin, thanks for all those quotes. Just to be the "devil's advocate" I'd like to mention that we spoiled all this marvelous effort through our fratricidal and totaly destructive 5-year long civil war, and the dependence and hatred of the "yes-men" goverments that followed after 1949. Leave it to the Greeks to kill more of each other than the enemy ever could...
 
so true.. we're our own worst enemy.. one of our 'biggest' downfalls.. but funnily enough we still come together when it matters/counts.
 
and since you liked the quotes.. I have some more for you Wink
 
 
 Hitler's dejected Chief of Staff Field Marshal Keitel during the Nuremberg trials;

"The unbelievable strong resistance of the Hellenes delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today".

 
"Towards the unhappy Greek people, we feel a genuine compassion. Greece fought so bravely that the esteem of her enemies cannot be denied her".
 
(Adolph Hitler - speech to the Reichstag, May 4, 1941)
 
 

"Can our nation ingloriously ever desert and betray the Greeks? Once more the Greeks are giving their blood for the freedom of the world".

(Rupert Hughes, Author USA 1940)
 
 
 
"Week after week, as truck loads of Greek soldiers rattled to the front with flowers behind their ears, singing mighty songs, Europe cheered. In Switzerland, the gendarmes are busy posting signs along their border with Italy, on which they write: Greeks. Stop here; this is Swiss territory".
 
(C.L. Sulzberger, American War Correspondent 1940)
 
 

"The Greeks shattered for ever the myth of Axis invincibility"

(Sunner Welles, Undersecretary of State, 1940)
 
 

"The bleak and icy mountains along the Albanian border give evidence of the courage and valor of the Greeks. The Greek warriors repelled the invaders whose ranks were scattered and broken, and thousands of Italian assailants met death in the mountain fastnesses"

(William H. King, U.S. Senator 1940)
 
 
 
"No nation has excelled Greece in the valor of its defense against aggression. Greece set the world an example of courage and integrity. It must not, and will not be forgotten when the time comes to restore a sane international order"
 
(Galveston Daily News 1941)
 
 

"I still remember my first visit to the front, where in a temporary dugout, a grinning Evzone told me: "Tell the Americans that we Greeks have few weapons, but we have strong teeth." And this was no mere fancy. Night after night, Greek Evzones, armed only with knives, crept forward to still the German gunner's nests with stabs, bites and throttling fingers..."

(C.L. Sulzberger, American War Correspondent 1941)
 
 

"Counting the toll of dead Germans and wrecked tanks piled up in the passes where the warriors of Greece fought almost bare-handed, even the German communique had to pay tribute to the heroism of the Greek fighters. And by delaying Hitler's Balkan conquest, and hence, his attack on Russia, the Greeks have turned the tide on the whole European theater of war"

(New York Times, 1941)

 
 
"It remained for those incurable optimists, those foolhardy patriots, the Greeks, to teach the world that it is better to fight against hopeless odds, than to let the Axis swallow up homeland, national spirit and pride".
 
(Leigh White Columbia Broadcasting System, 1941)
 
 

"Salute her White and Blue,

for not in vain our sons may fall
on earth, in air, at sea,
when our people's arms ensure
man's birthright to live free.
The debt we owed two thousand years
we never can repay,
but Europe saved will not forget
the debt she owes today"
 
(Lord Runnel of Rodd, Poet, London, 1941)
 
 
 
"We, and all the world, remember the heroic resistance of the Greeks. We rejoiced when a handful of Greeks, defectively equipped, administered defeat after defeat to the Fascists and chased them back. But Hitler could not afford to have the sawdust Caesar annihilated... Vast armies mechanised Nazis swooped down on Greece, from the east and from the north. The overwhelming Nazi forces pushed the gallant Greeks back inch by inch, until that fateful day when the symbol of tyranny, the swastika, flew over proud Parthenon. We all know much too well, that the lot of those brave people has since been subjected to starvation, agony and death..."
 
(Sam Rayburn S. Senator 1942)
 
 
 
"In Athens alone, one hundred and ten thousand children dead; nine out of ten babies born, dying of malnutrition; nine out of ten children under twelve suffering from rickets. Each day, wagons drawn by lean, ghostlike horses, drive through the Athenian streets gathering their loads of corpses. That is the heritage of Greece..."
 
(C.L. Sulzberger, New York Times, 1942)
 

****

 
The Cretan resistance I mentioned in an earlier post regarding
the Petrakogiorgis rebels,
 
 
 
Originally posted by Ellin

Bandovas and George Petrakogiorgis leaders who formed the first

group of resistance fighters.  They became the natural liaison for

British Intelligence.

 

In reference to a confrontation Petrakogiorgi's guerrillas had with

the Germans:

 

The Germans held every advantage.  They had high ground.

They shouldve been able to destroy the small Cretan band but

the reverse happen.  The Cretans managed to put over 400 Germans

to shame.

 
 

Petrakogiorgis command Apano tous palikaria mou, thanato

stous barbarous (ie On them my brave ones, death to the barbarians)

gave us that added strength to charge at them.  We became like

wild animals and attacked from all directions.  And I remember

seeing one German who threw his backpack and gun and running

like a wild goat.  Although we were only 18, they had no idea

how many we were.  I have the feeling that they thought that

behind every tree was a guerilla.

 

also

 

The Germans had high ground, they should have killed us all.

They became confused.  The Germans in the mountains were nothing.

 

Petrakogiorgis lost 7 of 18 men on that fateful day.  The latest and

most audacious attempt by German forces to capture the iconic

resistance leader and his infamous leader.

 

Because of the overwhelming odds against them, the battle of Trahili,

became one of the most celebrated events of the Cretan resistance.

 
 
reminded me a great deal of the Greeks during the Persian confrontations and how, even though vastly outnumbered, they weren't the least bit phased by it.  And looks like I'm not the only
one who made the same connection.
 
 
"The Greeks, in this hour, greatly outnumbered and poor in instruments of modern war, remember and defend the Glory that was Greece... Whatever happens, their determination vindicates the heroic tradition of Marathon, Thermopylae and Salamis..."

(New York Times 1940)

 
 
"There speaks the Greece of Leonidas and the 300, the Greece of the Greeks who never ask how many the enemy are, but where they are..."

(St Louis Post-Dispatch 1941)

 
 
"After 2400 years it is happening again! The Persians had millions of men and so many ships that nobody ever succeeded in counting them. Through sheer weight of flesh and material they might have fallen upon the small Greek forces and smother them. The Persian King sat upon his throne on the mountain and watched the battle at Salamis... And he saw the incredible happen: the invincible host was beaten and melted away. History has been known to repeat itself.."

(Providence Evening Bulletin, 1941)

 
 
"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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  Quote New User Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 14:02
Originally posted by Cezar

[QUOTE=Zaitsev]. In fact, one should think of Hitler at least not being hypocriteConfused
 
He came into power through democracy and then disposed of it. He was a murdering hypocrite and a madman imo.
 
As to whoever said the world declared war on Germany as if Hitler didn't want war with the British etc..
 
 
.By invading Poland Hitler would have known hostile actions would follow. Even though the Soviets had been ignored, Germany was closely watched and still hated after the 1st war, any act of aggression was going to be met with hostile forces from Britain, France etc. Hitler declared war first and knew it would bring the other countries in. He just thought he could win.
 
I cannot see why a country that LOST the war has so many votes. I mean they lost....hehe As for a country that fought for less years than any other country getting so many votes, well I don't see any arguments in this thread for so many US votes.
 
I don't understand the question enough to vote but found some comments on Hitler on this thread quite disturbing.
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 19:14
Originally posted by New User

Originally posted by Cezar

[QUOTE=Zaitsev]. In fact, one should think of Hitler at least not being hypocriteConfused
 
He came into power through democracy and then disposed of it. He was a murdering hypocrite and a madman imo.
 
As to whoever said the world declared war on Germany as if Hitler didn't want war with the British etc..
 
 
.By invading Poland Hitler would have known hostile actions would follow. Even though the Soviets had been ignored, Germany was closely watched and still hated after the 1st war, any act of aggression was going to be met with hostile forces from Britain, France etc. Hitler declared war first and knew it would bring the other countries in. He just thought he could win.
 
I cannot see why a country that LOST the war has so many votes. I mean they lost....hehe As for a country that fought for less years than any other country getting so many votes, well I don't see any arguments in this thread for so many US votes.
 
I don't understand the question enough to vote but found some comments on Hitler on this thread quite disturbing.
 
He was a excellent manipulator. I don't think he actually went on by saying how he will deal with the non-Germans. I mean, he did say he wanted them gone, but he didn't exactly said that he will massacre the mentally disabled people and force Jewish people to gas chamber. Remember, many of the politicans and spies were watching German elections closely, especially due to the fear of another war.
 
And his men did a good job making tons of propaganda. Terrible lies, but it worked.
     
   
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 19:20
Originally posted by Ellin

Total losses in population percentages

Greece 10%

Soviet Union 2.8%

Holland 2.2%

France 2%

Poland 1.8%

Yugoslavia 1.7%

Belgium 1.5%

Incorrect.
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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2007 at 19:30
Originally posted by Ellin

 

Duration of resistance (in days):

 

Greece  219

Norway  61

France  43 (superpower at the time)

Poland  30

Belgium  18

Holland  4

Yugoslavia  3

Czechoslavakia  0

Luxemburg  0

Denmark  0 

 

 
This data is wrong...e.g. in France, as opposite factions, there were the rebels and the Vichyists who cooperated with Germans. The rebels kept up with the rebellion, whether it hurted the Germans a lot or not.

 

Originally posted by Ellin

 

Total losses in population percentages

 

Greece  10%

Soviet Union  2.8%

Holland  2.2%

France  2%

Poland  1.8%

Yugoslavia  1.7%

Belgium  1.5%

 
 
I don't know where you have got these from, but I suggest you not to use this source anymore in any of your readings.
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
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  Quote Ellin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 02:59
Feanor and Kapikulu...
 
if it's incorrect, well then how about doing us a favour and posting what you think it should be, just for comparison.  Wink
"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
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  Quote Giannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 11:57
According to wikipedia, the country that suffered the most losses was Poland 16,10%, while USSR had 13,77%. Greece has also a big percentage 4,15%, comparing with France, UK or USA.
 
Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
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  Quote Majkes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2007 at 17:21
Originally posted by Ellin

Feanor and Kapikulu...
 
if it's incorrect, well then how about doing us a favour and posting what you think it should be, just for comparison.  Wink
 
I've already wrote Your numbers are completely wrong. E.G. for Poland it is 16%. If You would have at least basic knowledge about WWII You wouldn't claim France or Netherlands had bigger losses in population than Poland. This is ridiculous.
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  Quote Kamikaze 738 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 22:06
I voted for Germany because they had almost everything... the style, the money, the troops... all they need was a different leader. A leader that would help the world out instead of being a idiotic person that want rule the world Pinch
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  Quote Reaper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 15:14
Originally posted by Majkes

Originally posted by Dilvish

Originally posted by Feanor

Soviet Russia was the true winner of the war. US comes as the second.
I dont think russia did a lot they only fought in the last 1 or 2 years of the war, the germans where already scrutinized from incoming troops from Normandy.
 
What?? SU won WWII. 1941-45 it is not 1 or 2 years. What do they teach You in those americans schools???? Russia did much more than US.


Not much.  When I had World History last year and we entered the Second World War years, we focused on nothing but the Holocaust.  Holocaust ≠ WWII
. I was pretty unpset.

Originally posted by Dilvish

Originally posted by Knights

Aussies all the way! Ownage...Approve
what did aussies do in the war?


Man, they did plenty.  I don't like it when people don't recognize the Australians for what they did.  Cry
To clear this up: it's pwnage/pwned not pawnage
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Mar-2007 at 19:11
Originally posted by Kamikaze 738

I voted for Germany because they had almost everything... the style, the money, the troops... all they need was a different leader. A leader that would help the world out instead of being a idiotic person that want rule the world Pinch
 
Style?Confused
     
   
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  Quote apro282 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2007 at 21:06
Great posts Ellin, here are some more data, even our religious leaders were not afraid to stand up to the occupying forces:  Smile
 

"On September 20, 1943, Dieter Wisliceny -- a deputy of Adolph Eichmann, the administrator of the Nazi Final Solution -- arrived in Athens. Wisliceny ordered Chief Rabbi Elias Barzilai to appear before him, to provide accurate figures about the Jewish population in Athens and to create a Judernat. ... The Church of Greece, under Archbishop Damaskinos' leadership, condemned Hitler's plans for the country and instructed priests to announce its position in their sermons. ... When all official appeals to stop the deportations failed, Archbishop Damaskinos spearheaded a direct appeal to the Germans, in the form of a letter composed by the famous Greek poet Angelos Sikelianos and signed by prominent Greek citizens, in a bold attempt to appeal to the hearts and minds of the occupying authorities, in defense of the Jews who were being persecuted. The letter incited the rage of the Nazi general Stroop, who threatened the Archbishop with death by a firing squad. Damaskinos' bravely responsed, "According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!" The appeal of the Archbishop and his fellow Greeks is unique; there is no similar document of a formal protest of the Nazis during World War II that has come to light in any other European country. Go to the link below to read full report and letter It reads, in part..: ~ The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation.

 

"In contrast to many Catholic and Protestant religious leaders in Europe, who either supported the Nazi policy of extermination of the Jews, or did nothing to stop it, Archbishop Damaskenos of Greece formally protested the deportation of the Jews. After learning of the deportation of the Thessaloniki Jews in March 1943, Damaskenos sent a letter of protest to the Germans. When General Stroop, High SS and Police Leader for Greece, found out who was behind the letter, he threatened to shoot Damaskenos." ~ United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: Holocaust in Greece

"In 1944 Mayor Carrer of the Greek island Zakynthos was ordered at gunpoint to hand over a list of Jews residing on the island. The list was presented to the Germans by Bishop Chrysostomos only had two names: Mayor Carrer and Bishop Chrysostomos. The Bishop bravely told the Germans, "Here are your Jews. If you choose to deport the Jews of Zakynthos, you must also take me and I will share their fate." There is evidence that Chrysostomos actually communicated with Hitler himself, to beg for the lives of the Jews on the island. Historians do know that a boat was never sent to deport the Jews of Zakynthos and that all and that all the islands Jews survived the Holocaust. After a major earthquake struck the island on 1953 the first boat to arrive with aid to the victims was from Israel, with a message that read, "The Jews of Zakynthos have never forgotten their Mayor or their beloved Bishop and what they did for us." ~ United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: Holocaust in Greece

"Bishop Chrysostomos refused to submit to the Germans a list of Zakynthos Jews. He initiated the evacuation of the Jews to the hills, and all Jews were saved. Bishop Chrysostomos was honored by Yad Vashem in 1978 as a "Righteous Among the Nations" for his rescue operation." ~ The Simon Wiesenthal Center

 
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  Quote greeklamb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2007 at 08:09
Originally posted by Ellin

Greeks in World War II

Greece, during WWII, was the only country
that was forced to confront the armies of
four countries simultaneously:
           
Albania
Italy
Germany
Bulgaria



Duration of resistance (in days):

Greece 219
Norway 61
France 43 (superpower at the time)
Poland 30
Belgium 18
Holland 4
Yugoslavia 3
Czechoslavakia 0
Luxemburg 0
Denmark 0



Total Greek losses caused by occupying power

Albanians 1,165
Italians 8,000
Bulgarians 25,000
Germans 50,000



Total losses in population percentages

Greece 10%
Soviet Union 2.8%
Holland 2.2%
France 2%
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia 1.7%
Belgium 1.5%


And here's what other prominent figures had to say about her..


Quotes on/about the Greeks


For the sake of historical truth I must verify that
only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted
us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death..

(Adolf Hitler speech delivered to Reichstag on 4, May 1941)



The word heroism I am afraid does not render
the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks,
which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome
of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII,
for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for
the bravery of the Greeks and their courage,
the outcome of WWII would be undetermined.

(Winston Churchill British parliament 24, April 1941)


Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes.
Now we shall say: The heroes fight like Greeks.

(Winston Churchill speech BBC first days of Greco-Italian war)


I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not
live long to thank the Greek people, whose resistance
decided WWII.

(Joseph Stalin speech Moscow radio station
31 Jan, 1943 after victory of Stalingrad and capitulation
of German 6th Army Field Marshal Von Paulus).


If the Russian people managed to raise resistance
at the doors of Moscow to halt and reverse the
German torrent, they owe it to the Greek people,
who delayed the German divisions during the time
they could bring us to our knees.

(George Constantinovich Zhoukov Field Marshal
of Soviet Army a note from his memoirs)


Regardless of what future historians shall say,
what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini
an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive
for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the
Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks,
that she upset the chronological order of all German
High Commands plans and thus brought a general
reversal of the entire course of the war and we won.

(Sir Robert Antony Eden Minister of War and the
Exterior of Britain 1940-45, Prime Minister of Britain
1955-57 speech from British parliament 24, Sept 1942).




It would not be an exaggeration to say that Greece
upset the plans of Germany in their entirety forcing her
to postpone the attack on Russia for six weeks.
We wonder what would have been Soviet Unions
position without Greece.

(Sir Harold Leofric George Alexander British field Marshal
during WWII speech from British parliament 28, Oct 1941)


I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel
for the heroic resistance of the people and the leaders of Greece.

(Charles De Gaul speech French parliament after end of WWII)



Maurice Schumann Minister of the exterior of France
1969-73, member of French Academy 1974:

Greece is the symbol of the tortured, bloodied but live
Europe. Never a defeat was so honourable for those who
suffered it.

(From a message of his he addressed from BBC of London
to the enslaved peoples of Europe 28, April 1941, the day
Hitler occupied Athens after a 6 month war against Mussolini
and 6 weeks against Hitler).


You fight unarmed and won, small against big.
We owe you gratitude, because you gave us time to
defend ourselves. As Russians and as people we thank you.

(Moscow radio station when Hitler attacked USSR).


The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the
military and that surprises always await us.

(Benito Mussolini 10, May 1941 speech)


On the 28th October, 1940, Greece was given a deadline
of 3 hours to decide on war or peace, but even if 3 days
or 3 weeks or 3 years were given, the response would have
been the same. The Greeks taught dignity throughout the centuries.
When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to
question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the
proud spirit of freedom.

(Franklin D Roosevelt US President 1933-45)



The heroic struggle of the Greek people
Against Germanys attack, after she so thunderously
defeated the Italians in their attempt to invade
the Greek soil, filled the hearts of the American people
with enthusiasm and moved their compassion.
(Roosevelt)



On 10 April 1941, after the Greek capitulation to Germany,
the northern forts of Greece surrendered.

The Germans express their admirations to Greek soldiers,
declared that they were honoured and proud to have as
their adversary such an army and request that the Greek
Commandant inspect the German army in a demonstration
of honour and recognition.

The German flag was raised only after the complete withdrawal
of the Greek army.

A German officer of the air force declared to the commander
of the Eastern Macedonia division group, Lieutenant
General Dedes, that the Greek Army was the first army on
which the Stuka fighter planes did not cause panic.
Your soldiers, he said. Instead of fleeing frantically, as they did
in France and Poland, were shooting at us from their positions.


Only we..never counted the enemy in battle. (Aeschylus)


All of these are taken from a powerpoint presentation that has a high rank on google searches. As a greek I got the chain email of this presentation out of greek pride as well. Aside from the statistics being grossly inaccurate, I can't get corroborating sources of many of these quotes.
For the sake of historical truth I must verify that
only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted
us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death..

(Adolf Hitler speech delivered to Reichstag on 4, May 1941)
This quote, if Hitler did indeed say it (I couldn't find it), did not come from the speech cited. You can read this speech at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/4_May,_1941

The only other place that I can find some of these quotes is this page


They cite this book...
Anthology of Homeland History, by Menelaos Pagoulatos

As a Greek-American, I am very proud of the accomplishments of the Greeks in WWII. But it is important to know if any of this information is fabricated. I dont want to be falsely proud of Greek accomplishments.

I dont have the time check up on all of these, but if someone has the time and interest, please let me know.
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  Quote rommel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:56
russia lost around 15 million people during that war, wearing away the German army.
THEY DID DO MUCH
d murray
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