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QuoteReplyTopic: Which country in ww2 kicke the most...... Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 00:16
Originally posted by Arxileas
Originally posted by Dilvish
*Mental Note*
I choose the countries that where the elite of global fighting in ww2
Greetings all new member.
Firstly I apoligies if someone has already mentioned this?
Delvish fair enough you chose the elite countries of ww2. Doesn't Greece fit in this category? It may have been a small country then.
I mean it was Greece who brought the Third Rich "Hitler" down to it's knees, when the entire world was loosing hope agasn't fasism. First Greece won agains't Italy then Germany all on her own, then for the allies hope to be rekindled "a new hope"...And won.
There is obviously no question about heroic Greek resistance against the Axis. However, their military capability was just not enough to change the tide of war. They repelled Italian invasions with ease, and held Germans long enough for much of the British reinforcement to escape from hopeless battle in the Balkans. (Deja vu, British faced similar situation in France)
But compare the Greek's involvement in WWII compared to Soviet Union, British Empire, and Nazi Germany. First of all, WWII would not even exist without German involvement. Germans had to fight against Soviet Union, British Empire, French, Greek resistance, America, Canada, New Zealand, Australia and other allies all by themselves. (Yes, Italians fought too. But based on their achievement and their actions only limited in North African front, and they did not show much success) and Japanese Empire was just holding some American forces in Pacific. Some significance, but not so much compared to Germans.
There is obviously no question about heroic Greek resistance
against the Axis. However, their military capability was just not
enough to change the tide of war.
I beg to differ, it was greece's involvment that changed the tide for World War 2
Here is some facts I've had for a few years, on who was the deciding factor of the war / or changed the tide of the war in bold;
Greece-World War 2 (28/10/1940) Oxi Day.
Today, very few of us in the
cyberspace community appreciate the 28th of October 1940. Historians
have written much about various turning points in our planet's history,
but this turning point of the Second World War is not well known by
most of us.
The
scene is in Europe, in Rome, Italy during the autumn of 1940. The
dictator, Benito Mussolini, is feeling melancholic and inadequate. The
reasons for his frustrations are that his ally, Adolf Hitler and the
Germans, have been conquering the nations of Europe: Czechoslovakia,
Poland, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg,
France, Romania, and Austria. Their combined population was close to
140 million. Mighty France, a nation of 43 million, had collapsed and
surrendered after only 17 days of fighting in an agonizing and
humiliating defeat.
Mussolini was being confronted with faits
accomplis, as Hitler would inform him that the Germans had conquered a
country three days after the fact. Mussolini decided to show Hitler
that the Italians also could conquer Europe, and have Hitler "learn of
the conquest from the newspapers."
Mussolini's choice for this
mighty show of Italian strength was Greece, a small country of seven
million people versus Italy's 44 million. The disparity in their armed
forces was even greater: Italy had close to ten times the firepower of
Greece in its army and navy. Italy's large air force had total air
superiority since Greece had a very small defensive air force.
Now
that the choice was set, the invasion route was selected: the
Albanian-Greek border. All that remained would be to deliver an
ultimatum to Greece. The insulting ultimatum demanded that Greece allow
Italian troops to occupy the country (i.e., surrender) or Italy would
declare war and invade Greece. Mussolini had given the Greek Prime
Minister Metaxas three hours to reply. After reading the demands in the
early morning hours of the 28th of October 1940, he rejected the
ultimatum and replied with a single Hellenic word: "OXI!" (pronounced
Ohee, meaning "NO!"). It has become a Hellenic battle cry that blooms
defiantly every 28th of October on walls throughout Greece and Cyprus,
and in the thousands of Hellenic communities in almost every country
around the world. These Hellenic communities today number more than ten
million Hellenes (Greeks) outside Greece.
Mussolini never
waited for Metaxas' reply. Before the ultimatum had expired, five
heavily armed divisions of Italian soldiers began moving from
Italian-controlled Albania over the border into Greece. Expectations of
an easy Italian victory soon evaporated. The quick march to Athens for
an Italian victory parade never materialized. After a 25-kilometer
advance inside Greece, the 200,000 Italian troops were halted for days
by a ragged army of Greek soldiers in mismatched uniforms and
shepherd's clothes.
Though Italians outnumbered them more than
two to one, the Greeks astonished the Italian generals with their
courage, their tenacity, and their limited artillery's precision. The
Greek forces had six mortars for each division against the invader's
sixty. All Greeks helped in any way they could. The courageous women of
Greece supplied clothing, food, and support to the defense of their
country in very difficult winter conditions. Sometimes, large groups of
women would stand arm-in-arm for hours in icy rivers and streams to
slow the waters enough to permit the movement of equipment and supplies
to the front.
Within four weeks of the invasion, those
undermanned, under-supplied, and underfed Greeks drove the Italian army
back into Albania and kept on going, continuing the pursuit into
Albania. By this time, Mussolini had replaced the commanding general
several times, and finally assumed command of the military campaign
himself. He tried to rouse his troops to victory with speeches
reminding them of the great legacy of their predecessors, the ancient
Romans, but without success.
The Greeks pursued the Italians
more than 60 kilometers into Albania, and by December of 1940, the
Greek army had liberated the southern third of Albania, better known as
Northern Epirus. A Greek populated area since ancient times There was
even serious concern by the Italians that the Greek armed forces would
cross the Adriatic Sea and invade Italy itself. By the end of the
five-month campaign, in March 1941, the Greeks had dealt the Italian
armed forces some unexpected numbers: 12,500 Italians returned home
badly mutilated by the fighting; 13,800 were buried in the frozen soil
of Greece; 25,000 were missing in action; and 40,000 were POWs held by
the Greek Army.
We should remember that the USA was still
neutral, and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was a year away. The
USA was not involved in any fighting then, but all the major USA
newspapers and periodicals such as LIFE and TIME carried cover stories
about the Greeks and the history that they were making. In the USA,
Greeks and Greek-Americans of all ages were showered with admiration at
school and work in response to the historic events.
The entire
Western world, discouraged and fearful of the Axis powers and the
growing ugly war, took hope from this incredible victory. It was a
double first: the first defeat of the Axis powers and the first
liberation of territory captured by the Axis powers. British Prime
Minister Winston Churchill said of the Greeks: "Today we say that
Greeks fight like heroes, from now on we will say that heroes fight
like Greeks." However, there was history still to be made by the
Greeks.
The Greeks outraged Hitler and the Germans. A small
military power like Greece had succeeded in defeating their ally,
Italy. The Germans invaded Greece in April of 1941, and after nearly
two months of fierce fighting, overwhelmed the defiant Greeks but never
fully defeated them as the Greeks had one of the most dynamic and
relentless resistance movements. The Greek army included disabled
soldiers from the Albanian campaign against the Italians, ordinary
citizens, teenagers, and the elderly. On the Greek island of Crete
there were few regular Greek army soldiers, since they were on the
Greek mainland still fighting the Germans, but the ordinary Greek
citizens were there: elderly peasant men and women with hunting guns,
butcher knives, and agricultural tools slitting the throats of German
paratroopers as they landed. About 10,000 German soldiers, young men in
their prime, died trying to invade Crete.
Even Greek prison
convicts demanded and were released from jail so that they could fight.
The Greek freedom fighters took the lives of many German troops and
destroyed much German equipment. The Germans were forced to divert 50
battalions to Greece, though they desperately needed them on the
Eastern front.
The six months of fighting caused by the Greek
resistance of the Axis powers also delayed Germany's invasion and
campaign against what is today the Commonwealth of Independent States
(the former Soviet Union). The fierce resistance of the Greeks in
Epiros, Macedonia, Thessalia, Roumeli, Attiki, Peloponnesos, Crete, and
the rest of Greece to the Germans caused delays. It overturned German
plans to occupy Moscow before the onset of the heavy and deadly Russian
winter.
This was something the Germans had not planned and
thus were unprepared. The German war machine literally bogged down and
froze. The Russians were successful in repulsing and defeating the
Germans. This was a major turning point of World War 2. This signalled
the beginning of the end of the German Third Reich. The sacrifice and
success of the Greek armed forces, the Greek guerrillas, and the
ordinary, anonymous Greek citizens drew the admiration of the free
world and kindled hope for the final victory of the Allied powers.
We
should note that Greek Prime Minister Metaxas was also a military
dictator. Yet the Greeks united behind the belief that the defense of
their country, which they wished to become more democratic again, was
very important. That is another symbolism and irony of the 28th of
October 1940, that the Greek people not only fought the fascist Axis
powers invading Greece, but also later fought the extremist forces that
were trying to rule Greece and not allow it to be a democracy.
The
Greeks faithfully met their obligations to their allies, with heroism
and self-sacrifice. As a small country, the human sacrifice and
mega-devastation Greece suffered in World War 2 were much more than
those of the almost all other countries that were on the victorious
Allied side. In World War 2, Greece lost one of the highest percentages
of its population in comparison to the other members of the victorious
Allies. Greece lost, on a percentage basis, about 12% of its
population, meaning about one million people.
The world
leadership of the time, including Franklin D. Roosevelt and Winston
Churchill, recognized the decisive contribution of the Greeks. The
timeless character of the modern Greek was shining brightly for all to
see: passionate, determined, and proud.
The next time you see
or communicate with a Greek, tell them that you remember the 28th of
October 1940. Send this article to others who may not know this
important day in our planet's history. On that day, Greece, the
birthplace of democracy said "NO!" to fascism, and defended its
birthright despite overwhelming and unfavorable odds to yet another
triumph. On that day, Greece, the ancient cradle of democracy and
Western civilization, helped save democracy in its darkest hour. People
have brought that birthright of democracy to most of our planet and for
that we should all be proud. Interestingly, the 28th of October is also
the anniversary of the opening of a symbol patterned after one of the
Seven Wonders of the World, the Colossus of Rhodes in Greece. This
symbol of democracy is the Statue of Liberty on a small island between
New Jersey and New York, USA.
This day is an inspiration to
all those who cherish democracy and freedom. For when the world was a
risk, an ancient and brave people were willing to risk everything. The
ancient Greeks invented democracy, and the 21st century Greeks are
still defending it. All of those who believe in democracy and freedom
want Greece to continue as a vigorous and vibrant democracy into the
Third Millennium. Hellenic civilization is in its 10,000th year and is
still a major cultural force.
-------------------------------
Info is very accurate and was taken from a web site which no longer is available. Whoever this link backs it up; http://agrino.org/greeklibrary/projects/World_War_II/index.html
But compare the Greek's involvement in WWII
compared to Soviet Union, British
Empire, and Nazi Germany
See above.
First of all, WWII would not
even exist without German involvement
True but it should be if the Amercinas had not financed the Germans then ww2 wouldn't have happened, that's for another topic. Good piont though!
This topic is who kicked some B**Ts Greece with less population then the ones mention Greece was the deciding factor or the out come of ww2. No doubt the Astralians have / had an excellent army, no doubt about it.
All Greeks helped in any way they could. The courageous women of Greece supplied clothing, food, and support to the defense of their country in very difficult winter conditions. Sometimes, large groups of women would stand arm-in-arm for hours in icy rivers and streams to slow the waters enough to permit the movement of equipment and supplies to the front.
The Greek army included disabled soldiers from the Albanian campaign against the Italians, ordinary citizens, teenagers, and the elderly. On the Greek island of Crete there were few regular Greek army soldiers, since they were on the Greek mainland still fighting the Germans, but the ordinary Greek citizens were there: elderly peasant men and women with hunting guns, butcher knives, and agricultural tools slitting the throats of German paratroopers as they landed. About 10,000 German soldiers, young men in their prime, died trying to invade Crete.
spot on.. and such an intrinsic part of our nature/history.
Every Greek, or anyone who has a penchant for military history
should get their hands on the dvd "The 11th Day".. which reflects
on the Cretan resistance. It's a must, you won't be disappointed.
The following are excerpts/eyewitness accounts/quotes from the documentary.
Because Mussolinis failed invasion of Greece would be a costly
liability for Axis forces, Hitler was forced to commit German troops
to the task.
Hitlers elite German paratroopers, The Fallschirmjager (sky hunters)
made the first airborne infantry assaults in history.
8100 German paratroopers dropped from 530 aircraft, making Crete
the largest and most ambitious operation. (ie operation Mercury)
3764 of 8100 were killed in the first 4 days with 1600 wounded.
After the first day of fighting, the casualties suffered by the 7th
parachute division had exceeded the total number of German
soldiers killed in the entire war to date.
Crete, became the graveyard of German paratroopers.
----
There was no Greek army on Crete at the time as they had been
fighting on the mainland.
All citizens, men and women of all ages fought with what
little weapons they had (even using sticks and knives).
----
The Greek population in civilian dress, has taken part in the
fighting, any Greek civilian captured with a firearm in his hands
is to be shot immediately.
Hostages are to be taken from their villages.If acts of hostility
take place against the German army, these hostages will be
shot.
Despite these orders, it didn't deter the Cretan iron will and
dedication. The civilians continued dispersing food
and supplies (guns, bullets, cigarettes) where they were needed.
They were also the eyes and ears for the rebels.
The Germans didnt expect little children to be field intelligence
people.One teen, happened to be carrying crucial information for the
guerrilla fighters (maps, codes), that he had hidden within his umbrella.
He had been stopped at a checkpoint. He closed his umbrella and put it
down on the ground while he was being body searched.They obviously
found nothing on him, so he then casually picked up his umbrella
and went on his merry way.
----
The Cretan civilian insurgency was, for the Germans unprecedented
in both shape and potency.
Because of the contributions of Cretes women and children, the
guerrilla fighters were able to conduct unusually ambitious and
unusually lethal attacks.
General Commandant Alexander Andre;
The courage of the Cretans facing the firing squad is legendary.
Cretans turn to mythical figures.They are so proud during their
tragic moment of death that one can hardly fail to admire their
courage.When executions were to take place.I would leave
my desk and walk out to the balcony, just to watch and admire
those proud people.Nowhere else have I witnessed such
defiance to death, such love for freedom, than on Crete.
----
"The German reprisals and executions only brutalised the
population and encouraged them to commit more acts of resistance.
Creating a fertile ground for the S.O.E. (Special Operations Executive)
to supply weapons, grenades, mines etc, to help the Cretan
resistances expand dramatically".
----
Bandovas and George Petrakogiorgis leaders who formed the first
group of resistance fighters.They became the natural liaison for
British Intelligence.
In reference to a confrontation Petrakogiorgi's guerrillas had with
the Germans:
The Germans held every advantage.They had high ground.
They shouldve been able to destroy the small Cretan band but
the reverse happen.The Cretans managed to put over 400 Germans
to shame.
Petrakogiorgis command Apano tous palikaria mou, thanato
stous barbarous (ie On them my brave ones, death to the barbarians)
gave us that added strength to charge at them.We became like
wild animals and attacked from all directions.And I remember
seeing one German who threw his backpack and gun and running
like a wild goat.Although we were only 18, they had no idea
how many we were.I have the feeling that they thought that
behind every tree was a guerilla.
also
The Germans had high ground, they should have killed us all.
They became confused.The Germans in the mountains were nothing.
Petrakogiorgis lost 7 of 18 men on that fateful day.The latest and
most audacious attempt by German forces to capture the iconic
resistance leader and his infamous leader.
Because of the overwhelming odds against them, the battle of Trahili,
became one of the most celebrated events of the Cretan resistance.
----
Major Patrick Leigh Fermor (age 25 at time) and Sargeant Stanley
Moss, of the SOE, dressed as German jacket police corporals and
had managed to detain, at a pseudo checkpoint, the then General
Commandant of Crete (Heinrich Kreipe).The stolen car was
then abandoned with a note for the High Commander by Fermor,
stating that they had captured their commanding Officer as a
prisoner of war and a p.s. that they were sorry to leave the
motor car behind.
The German General pleaded with Fermor Please dont leave me
under the authority of thesesavages. Fermor's response;
These people are civilised, you are the ones who are the savages.
The General was well treated by the Cretans and the British,
much to his surprise, and after only 18 days had been evacuated
to the British headquarters in Cairo.
On Sept 1, 1944, less than 4 months after the abduction of Kreipe,
Germany began its withdrawal from Crete.
Chase Brandon CIA
Military historians always talk about the fabulous French resistance
movement.They often talk about the Dutch resistance.The truth is,
those, absolutely, were failures.If you look at what happened in Crete.
Those incredibly, brave, dedicated, freedom driven people, did
something quite remarkable in history.They held the Germans
at bay for 4 very long years, probably slowed Germanys march
across Europe down, and in the end, left in the annals of military history, the most consequential and successful military insurgency
ever.
"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
ps my vote from that list went to USSR as they were the ones who put the finishing touches on the Germans and brought WWII to a halt.
"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
Good post Ellin, thanks for all those quotes. Just to be the "devil's advocate" I'd like to mention that we spoiled all this marvelous effort through our fratricidal and totaly destructive 5-year long civil war, and the dependence and hatred of the "yes-men" goverments that followed after 1949. Leave it to the Greeks to kill more of each other than the enemy ever could...
so true.. we're our own worst enemy.. one of our 'biggest' downfalls.. but funnily enough we still come together when it matters/counts.
and since you liked the quotes.. I have some more for you
Hitler's dejected Chief of Staff Field Marshal Keitel during the Nuremberg trials;
"The unbelievable strong resistance of the Hellenes delayed by two or more vital months the German attack against Russia; if we did not have this long delay, the outcome of the war would have been different in the eastern front and in the war in general, and others would have been accused and would be occupying this seat as defendants today".
"Towards the unhappy Greek people, we feel a genuine compassion. Greece fought so bravely that the esteem of her enemies cannot be denied her".
(Adolph Hitler - speech to the Reichstag, May 4, 1941)
"Can our nation ingloriously ever desert and betray the Greeks? Once more the Greeks are giving their blood for the freedom of the world".
(Rupert Hughes, Author USA 1940)
"Week after week, as truck loads of Greek soldiers rattled to the front with flowers behind their ears, singing mighty songs, Europe cheered. In Switzerland, the gendarmes are busy posting signs along their border with Italy, on which they write: Greeks. Stop here; this is Swiss territory".
(C.L. Sulzberger, American War Correspondent 1940)
"The Greeks shattered for ever the myth of Axis invincibility"
(Sunner Welles, Undersecretary of State, 1940)
"The bleak and icy mountains along the Albanian border give evidence of the courage and valor of the Greeks. The Greek warriors repelled the invaders whose ranks were scattered and broken, and thousands of Italian assailants met death in the mountain fastnesses"
(William H. King, U.S. Senator 1940)
"No nation has excelled Greece in the valor of its defense against aggression. Greece set the world an example of courage and integrity. It must not, and will not be forgotten when the time comes to restore a sane international order"
(Galveston Daily News 1941)
"I still remember my first visit to the front, where in a temporary dugout, a grinning Evzone told me: "Tell the Americans that we Greeks have few weapons, but we have strong teeth." And this was no mere fancy. Night after night, Greek Evzones, armed only with knives, crept forward to still the German gunner's nests with stabs, bites and throttling fingers..."
(C.L. Sulzberger, American War Correspondent 1941)
"Counting the toll of dead Germans and wrecked tanks piled up in the passes where the warriors of Greece fought almost bare-handed, even the German communique had to pay tribute to the heroism of the Greek fighters. And by delaying Hitler's Balkan conquest, and hence, his attack on Russia, the Greeks have turned the tide on the whole European theater of war"
(New York Times, 1941)
"It remained for those incurable optimists, those foolhardy patriots, the Greeks, to teach the world that it is better to fight against hopeless odds, than to let the Axis swallow up homeland, national spirit and pride".
(Leigh White Columbia Broadcasting System, 1941)
"Salute her White and Blue,
for not in vain our sons may fall
on earth, in air, at sea,
when our people's arms ensure
man's birthright to live free.
The debt we owed two thousand years
we never can repay,
but Europe saved will not forget
the debt she owes today"
(Lord Runnel of Rodd, Poet, London, 1941)
"We, and all the world, remember the heroic resistance of the Greeks. We rejoiced when a handful of Greeks, defectively equipped, administered defeat after defeat to the Fascists and chased them back. But Hitler could not afford to have the sawdust Caesar annihilated... Vast armies mechanised Nazis swooped down on Greece, from the east and from the north. The overwhelming Nazi forces pushed the gallant Greeks back inch by inch, until that fateful day when the symbol of tyranny, the swastika, flew over proud Parthenon. We all know much too well, that the lot of those brave people has since been subjected to starvation, agony and death..."
(Sam Rayburn S. Senator 1942)
"In Athens alone, one hundred and ten thousand children dead; nine out of ten babies born, dying of malnutrition; nine out of ten children under twelve suffering from rickets. Each day, wagons drawn by lean, ghostlike horses, drive through the Athenian streets gathering their loads of corpses. That is the heritage of Greece..."
(C.L. Sulzberger, New York Times, 1942)
****
The Cretan resistance I mentioned in an earlier post regarding
the Petrakogiorgis rebels,
Originally posted by Ellin
Bandovas and George Petrakogiorgis leaders who formed the first
group of resistance fighters.They became the natural liaison for
British Intelligence.
In reference to a confrontation Petrakogiorgi's guerrillas had with
the Germans:
The Germans held every advantage.They had high ground.
They shouldve been able to destroy the small Cretan band but
the reverse happen.The Cretans managed to put over 400 Germans
to shame.
Petrakogiorgis command Apano tous palikaria mou, thanato
stous barbarous (ie On them my brave ones, death to the barbarians)
gave us that added strength to charge at them.We became like
wild animals and attacked from all directions.And I remember
seeing one German who threw his backpack and gun and running
like a wild goat.Although we were only 18, they had no idea
how many we were.I have the feeling that they thought that
behind every tree was a guerilla.
also
The Germans had high ground, they should have killed us all.
They became confused.The Germans in the mountains were nothing.
Petrakogiorgis lost 7 of 18 men on that fateful day.The latest and
most audacious attempt by German forces to capture the iconic
resistance leader and his infamous leader.
Because of the overwhelming odds against them, the battle of Trahili,
became one of the most celebrated events of the Cretan resistance.
reminded me a great deal of the Greeks during the Persian confrontations and how, even though vastly outnumbered, they weren't the least bit phased by it. And looks like I'm not the only
one who made the same connection.
"The Greeks, in this hour, greatly outnumbered and poor in instruments of modern war, remember and defend the Glory that was Greece... Whatever happens, their determination vindicates the heroic tradition of Marathon, Thermopylae and Salamis..."
(New York Times 1940)
"There speaks the Greece of Leonidas and the 300, the Greece of the Greeks who never ask how many the enemy are, but where they are..."
(St Louis Post-Dispatch 1941)
"After 2400 years it is happening again! The Persians had millions of men and so many ships that nobody ever succeeded in counting them. Through sheer weight of flesh and material they might have fallen upon the small Greek forces and smother them. The Persian King sat upon his throne on the mountain and watched the battle at Salamis... And he saw the incredible happen: the invincible host was beaten and melted away. History has been known to repeat itself.."
(Providence Evening Bulletin, 1941)
"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
[QUOTE=Zaitsev]. In fact, one should think of Hitler at least not being hypocrite
He came into power through democracy and then disposed of it. He was a murdering hypocrite and a madman imo.
As to whoever said the world declared war on Germany as if Hitler didn't want war with the British etc..
.By invading Poland Hitler would have known hostile actions would follow. Even though the Soviets had been ignored, Germany was closely watched and still hated after the 1st war, any act of aggression was going to be met with hostile forces from Britain, France etc. Hitler declared war first and knew it would bring the other countries in. He just thought he could win.
I cannot see why a country that LOST the war has so many votes. I mean they lost....hehe As for a country that fought for less years than any other country getting so many votes, well I don't see any arguments in this thread for so many US votes.
I don't understand the question enough to vote but found some comments on Hitler on this thread quite disturbing.
[QUOTE=Zaitsev]. In fact, one should think of Hitler at least not being hypocrite
He came into power through democracy and then disposed of it. He was a murdering hypocrite and a madman imo.
As to whoever said the world declared war on Germany as if Hitler didn't want war with the British etc..
.By invading Poland Hitler would have known hostile actions would follow. Even though the Soviets had been ignored, Germany was closely watched and still hated after the 1st war, any act of aggression was going to be met with hostile forces from Britain, France etc. Hitler declared war first and knew it would bring the other countries in. He just thought he could win.
I cannot see why a country that LOST the war has so many votes. I mean they lost....hehe As for a country that fought for less years than any other country getting so many votes, well I don't see any arguments in this thread for so many US votes.
I don't understand the question enough to vote but found some comments on Hitler on this thread quite disturbing.
He was a excellent manipulator. I don't think he actually went on by saying how he will deal with the non-Germans. I mean, he did say he wanted them gone, but he didn't exactly said that he will massacre the mentally disabled people and force Jewish people to gas chamber. Remember, many of the politicans and spies were watching German elections closely, especially due to the fear of another war.
And his men did a good job making tons of propaganda. Terrible lies, but it worked.
This data is wrong...e.g. in France, as opposite factions, there were the rebels and the Vichyists who cooperated with Germans. The rebels kept up with the rebellion, whether it hurted the Germans a lot or not.
Originally posted by Ellin
Total losses in population percentages
Greece10%
Soviet Union2.8%
Holland2.2%
France2%
Poland1.8%
Yugoslavia1.7%
Belgium1.5%
I don't know where you have got these from, but I suggest you not to use this source anymore in any of your readings.
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;
if it's incorrect, well then how about doing us a favour and posting what you think it should be, just for comparison.
"Grk ppl r anarchic & difficlt 2 tame.4 this reasn we must strike deep in2 thr lang,relgn,cult& hist resrvs, so that we cn neutrlz thr ability 2 develp,distinguish
themslvs/ 2 prevail"..up urs Kisngr
According to wikipedia, the country that suffered the most losses was Poland 16,10%, while USSR had 13,77%. Greece has also a big percentage 4,15%, comparing with France, UK or USA.
if it's incorrect, well then how about doing us a favour and posting what you think it should be, just for comparison.
I've already wrote Your numbers are completely wrong. E.G. for Poland it is 16%. If You would have at least basic knowledge about WWII You wouldn't claim France or Netherlands had bigger losses in population than Poland. This is ridiculous.
I voted for Germany because they had almost everything... the style, the money, the troops... all they need was a different leader. A leader that would help the world out instead of being a idiotic person that want rule the world
Soviet Russia was the true winner of the war. US comes as the second.
I dont think russia did a lot they only fought in the last 1 or 2 years of the war, the germans where already scrutinized from incoming troops from Normandy.
What?? SU won WWII. 1941-45 it is not 1 or 2 years. What do they teach You in those americans schools???? Russia did much more than US.
Not much. When I had World History last year and we entered the Second World War years, we focused on nothing but the Holocaust. Holocaust ≠ WWII . I was pretty unpset.
Originally posted by Dilvish
Originally posted by Knights
Aussies all the way! Ownage...
what did aussies do in the war?
Man, they did plenty. I don't like it when people don't recognize the Australians for what they did. To clear this up: it's pwnage/pwned not pawnage
I voted for Germany because they had almost everything... the style, the money, the troops... all they need was a different leader. A leader that would help the world out instead of being a idiotic person that want rule the world
Great posts Ellin, here are some more data, even our religious leaders were not afraid to stand up to the occupying forces:
"On September 20, 1943, Dieter Wisliceny -- a deputy of Adolph Eichmann, the administrator of the Nazi Final Solution -- arrived in Athens. Wisliceny ordered Chief Rabbi Elias Barzilai to appear before him, to provide accurate figures about the Jewish population in Athens and to create a Judernat. ... The Church of Greece, under Archbishop Damaskinos' leadership, condemned Hitler's plans for the country and instructed priests to announce its position in their sermons. ... When all official appeals to stop the deportations failed, Archbishop Damaskinos spearheaded a direct appeal to the Germans, in the form of a letter composed by the famous Greek poet Angelos Sikelianos and signed by prominent Greek citizens, in a bold attempt to appeal to the hearts and minds of the occupying authorities, in defense of the Jews who were being persecuted. The letter incited the rage of the Nazi general Stroop, who threatened the Archbishop with death by a firing squad. Damaskinos' bravely responsed, "According to the traditions of the Greek Orthodox Church, our prelates are hung and not shot. Please respect our traditions!" The appeal of the Archbishop and his fellow Greeks is unique; there is no similar document of a formal protest of the Nazis during World War II that has come to light in any other European country. Go to the link below to read full report and letter It reads, in part..: ~ The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation.
"In contrast to many Catholic and Protestant religious leaders in Europe, who either supported the Nazi policy of extermination of the Jews, or did nothing to stop it, Archbishop Damaskenos of Greece formally protested the deportation of the Jews. After learning of the deportation of the Thessaloniki Jews in March 1943, Damaskenos sent a letter of protest to the Germans. When General Stroop, High SS and Police Leader for Greece, found out who was behind the letter, he threatened to shoot Damaskenos." ~ United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: Holocaust in Greece
"In 1944 Mayor Carrer of the Greek island Zakynthos was ordered at gunpoint to hand over a list of Jews residing on the island. The list was presented to the Germans by Bishop Chrysostomos only had two names: Mayor Carrer and Bishop Chrysostomos. The Bishop bravely told the Germans, "Here are your Jews. If you choose to deport the Jews of Zakynthos, you must also take me and I will share their fate." There is evidence that Chrysostomos actually communicated with Hitler himself, to beg for the lives of the Jews on the island. Historians do know that a boat was never sent to deport the Jews of Zakynthos and that all and that all the islands Jews survived the Holocaust. After a major earthquake struck the island on 1953 the first boat to arrive with aid to the victims was from Israel, with a message that read, "The Jews of Zakynthos have never forgotten their Mayor or their beloved Bishop and what they did for us." ~ United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: Holocaust in Greece
"Bishop Chrysostomos refused to submit to the Germans a list of Zakynthos Jews. He initiated the evacuation of the Jews to the hills, and all Jews were saved. Bishop Chrysostomos was honored by Yad Vashem in 1978 as a "Righteous Among the Nations" for his rescue operation." ~ The Simon Wiesenthal Center
Greece 10%
Soviet Union 2.8%
Holland 2.2%
France 2%
Poland 1.8%
Yugoslavia 1.7%
Belgium 1.5%
And here's what other prominent figures had to say about her..
Quotes on/about the Greeks
For the sake of historical truth I must verify that
only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted
us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death..
(Adolf Hitler speech delivered to Reichstag on 4, May 1941)
The word heroism I am afraid does not render
the least of those acts of self-sacrifice of the Greeks,
which were the defining factor in the victorious outcome
of the common struggle of the nations, during WWII,
for the human freedom and dignity. If it were not for
the bravery of the Greeks and their courage,
the outcome of WWII would be undetermined.
(Winston Churchill British parliament 24, April 1941)
Until now we used to say that the Greeks fight like heroes.
Now we shall say: The heroes fight like Greeks.
(Winston Churchill speech BBC first days of Greco-Italian war)
I am sorry because I am getting old and I shall not
live long to thank the Greek people, whose resistance
decided WWII.
(Joseph Stalin speech Moscow radio station
31 Jan, 1943 after victory of Stalingrad and capitulation
of German 6th Army Field Marshal Von Paulus).
If the Russian people managed to raise resistance
at the doors of Moscow to halt and reverse the
German torrent, they owe it to the Greek people,
who delayed the German divisions during the time
they could bring us to our knees.
(George Constantinovich Zhoukov Field Marshal
of Soviet Army a note from his memoirs)
Regardless of what future historians shall say,
what we can say now, is that Greece gave Mussolini
an unforgettable lesson, that she was the motive
for the revolution in Yugoslavia, that she held the
Germans in the mainland and in Crete for six weeks,
that she upset the chronological order of all German
High Commands plans and thus brought a general
reversal of the entire course of the war and we won.
(Sir Robert Antony Eden Minister of War and the
Exterior of Britain 1940-45, Prime Minister of Britain
1955-57 speech from British parliament 24, Sept 1942).
It would not be an exaggeration to say that Greece
upset the plans of Germany in their entirety forcing her
to postpone the attack on Russia for six weeks.
We wonder what would have been Soviet Unions
position without Greece.
(Sir Harold Leofric George Alexander British field Marshal
during WWII speech from British parliament 28, Oct 1941)
I am unable to give the proper breadth of gratitude I feel
for the heroic resistance of the people and the leaders of Greece.
(Charles De Gaul speech French parliament after end of WWII)
Maurice Schumann Minister of the exterior of France
1969-73, member of French Academy 1974:
Greece is the symbol of the tortured, bloodied but live
Europe. Never a defeat was so honourable for those who
suffered it.
(From a message of his he addressed from BBC of London
to the enslaved peoples of Europe 28, April 1941, the day
Hitler occupied Athens after a 6 month war against Mussolini
and 6 weeks against Hitler).
You fight unarmed and won, small against big.
We owe you gratitude, because you gave us time to
defend ourselves. As Russians and as people we thank you.
(Moscow radio station when Hitler attacked USSR).
The war with Greece proved that nothing is firm in the
military and that surprises always await us.
(Benito Mussolini 10, May 1941 speech)
On the 28th October, 1940, Greece was given a deadline
of 3 hours to decide on war or peace, but even if 3 days
or 3 weeks or 3 years were given, the response would have
been the same. The Greeks taught dignity throughout the centuries.
When the entire world had lost all hope, the Greek people dared to
question the invincibility of the German monster raising against it the
proud spirit of freedom.
(Franklin D Roosevelt US President 1933-45)
The heroic struggle of the Greek people
Against Germanys attack, after she so thunderously
defeated the Italians in their attempt to invade
the Greek soil, filled the hearts of the American people
with enthusiasm and moved their compassion.
(Roosevelt)
On 10 April 1941, after the Greek capitulation to Germany,
the northern forts of Greece surrendered.
The Germans express their admirations to Greek soldiers,
declared that they were honoured and proud to have as
their adversary such an army and request that the Greek
Commandant inspect the German army in a demonstration
of honour and recognition.
The German flag was raised only after the complete withdrawal
of the Greek army.
A German officer of the air force declared to the commander
of the Eastern Macedonia division group, Lieutenant
General Dedes, that the Greek Army was the first army on
which the Stuka fighter planes did not cause panic.
Your soldiers, he said. Instead of fleeing frantically, as they did
in France and Poland, were shooting at us from their positions.
Only we..never counted the enemy in battle. (Aeschylus)
All of these are taken from a powerpoint presentation that has a high rank on google searches. As a greek I got the chain email of this presentation out of greek pride as well. Aside from the statistics being grossly inaccurate, I can't get corroborating sources of many of these quotes.
For the sake of historical truth I must verify that
only the Greeks, of all the adversaries who confronted
us, fought with bold courage and highest disregard of death..
(Adolf Hitler speech delivered to Reichstag on 4, May 1941)
This quote, if Hitler did indeed say it (I couldn't find it), did not come from the speech cited. You can read this speech at http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/4_May,_1941
The only other place that I can find some of these quotes is this page
They cite this book...
Anthology of Homeland History, by Menelaos Pagoulatos
As a Greek-American, I am very proud of the accomplishments of the Greeks in WWII. But it is important to know if any of this information is fabricated. I dont want to be falsely proud of Greek accomplishments.
I dont have the time check up on all of these, but if someone has the time and interest, please let me know.
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