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    Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 12:50
It really wouldnt of been very difficult, cooperation between the Balkan states with perhaps naval aid from Venice


Venice. hmmm, Venice couldnt careless about the Balkan situation. Infact, on many occasion it worked against the Balkan christians. Its main concern was maintaining open trade in the Aeagean. Helping the christians of the Balkans came later. They took did not wish to anger the Turks. The Balkans could have pushed the Turks out of a significant part of Europe. But when Anatolia and the east was concerned it was pure dream to think they could penetrate that far. Venice was there for its interests. Its aid would have been great, but it was not ally to put any reliance upon. For us Albanians, the Venetians were as much of an enemy as the Turks. They often worked for the them. Infact, when Scanderbeg went to Brankovic for an alliance, Brankovic stated that he would aid scanderbeg against the venetians if thats what he was concerned with, but if the Turks were involved, He could forget about it.

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 12:54
Originally posted by Heraclius

 It is fair to mention though the fierce resistance the Serbs offered the Turks, atleast unlike some they had the guts to stand up to them on more than one occasion. Although the Serbs were largely defeated had they been helped by their neighbours then perhaps the calls for a crusade from the west would of been unnecessary.

 I believe the Balkans had enough power by itself to stop the Turks if it united against its common enemy whilst it had time to do so, Byzantium had provided that kind of unity for centuries the constant squabbling and wars in the Balkans however instead of replacing Byzantiums uniting influence only sought to weaken it and in turn weaken the Balkans as a whole.

 The Turks at times probably couldnt believe their luck that so many people were so blind to the danger they represented.

Yea yea, if my ant had balls she whas my uncle.

Also dont forget to blaim Turks for everything, like

Question: "Why does it rain today?"

Answer: "Its becuz of Turks who did win against Byzantian empire and captured Constantinople + the Balkans with luck, no tactics but just luck"

Man before i get mad, get the hell out off here or post those bully's in Historical amusument forum.
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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:01
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Heraclius

 It is fair to mention though the fierce resistance the Serbs offered the Turks, atleast unlike some they had the guts to stand up to them on more than one occasion. Although the Serbs were largely defeated had they been helped by their neighbours then perhaps the calls for a crusade from the west would of been unnecessary.

 I believe the Balkans had enough power by itself to stop the Turks if it united against its common enemy whilst it had time to do so, Byzantium had provided that kind of unity for centuries the constant squabbling and wars in the Balkans however instead of replacing Byzantiums uniting influence only sought to weaken it and in turn weaken the Balkans as a whole.

 The Turks at times probably couldnt believe their luck that so many people were so blind to the danger they represented.

Yea yea, if my ant had balls she whas my uncle.

Also dont forget to blaim Turks for everything, like

Question: "Why does it rain today?"

Answer: "Its becuz of Turks who did win against Byzantian empire and captured Constantinople + the Balkans with luck, no tactics but just luck"

Man before i get mad, get the hell out off here or post those bully's in Historical amusument forum.

 I hope thats the end of your little tantrum, you don't want to look to ridiculous now do you?

 I simply pointed out that if the various powers in the Balkans hadnt been so pre-occupied fighting each other and tearing the place apart they may have resisted the Turks who ended up conquering the entire Balkan area.
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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:07

Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

It really wouldnt of been very difficult, cooperation between the Balkan states with perhaps naval aid from Venice


Venice. hmmm, Venice couldnt careless about the Balkan situation. Infact, on many occasion it worked against the Balkan christians. Its main concern was maintaining open trade in the Aeagean. Helping the christians of the Balkans came later. They took did not wish to anger the Turks. The Balkans could have pushed the Turks out of a significant part of Europe. But when Anatolia and the east was concerned it was pure dream to think they could penetrate that far. Venice was there for its interests. Its aid would have been great, but it was not ally to put any reliance upon. For us Albanians, the Venetians were as much of an enemy as the Turks. They often worked for the them. Infact, when Scanderbeg went to Brankovic for an alliance, Brankovic stated that he would aid scanderbeg against the venetians if thats what he was concerned with, but if the Turks were involved, He could forget about it.

 I agree thats what I mean when I criticised the attitude and actions of Venice and Genoa to a lesser extent, it almost goes without saying that they were in for whatever they could get, in the end all that mattered was trade whether it was with Serbia, Constantinople, the Turks or whoever. Trade is trade no matter who

 My point was if Venice could of been convinced an alliance against the Turks was in their long-term best economic interests then their naval support would of been invaluable. Since Serbia didnt have a navy of its own and Byzantiums had long since faded into insignificance, a navy would of been of paramount importance. In the end Venice wasnt overly bothered who was in charge of the Balkans aslong as they could maintain their trade throughout the region.



Edited by Heraclius
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:17
Originally posted by the Bulgarian

If I'm not mistaken the first serious anti-Turk coalition in the Balcans was assembled by prince Lazar. At least one bright man in Balcan pilitics...

Who's an anti-Turk is a bright man to you? Hmmmmm....

Originally posted by the Bulgarian

You are right. All Balcan kings and rulers were shortsighed, fighting among themselves, instead of uniting against the common threat. Sometimes I ask myself how could they have been so blind in the face of the oncoming catastophy. The 500 years of Ottoman slavery were a horrible tragedy and we, the Balcan nations, are all responsible for our own foolishnes.
500 years Ottoman slavery HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMmmm.

Originally posted by Heraclius

 Had Byzantium been stronger during the 14th century I see no reason why it couldnt of recovered Anatolia, the Catalan company smashed the Ottomans and the Karamans in western and central Asia Minor leaving it open to reconquest. This was as pointed out partly due to the fact the Turks were so divided at the time, so had Andronicus II not effectively disbanded the best regiments of the army and the entire navy then the future for the Turks would of looked bleak instead of Byzantiums.

 Such as it was Byzantine weakness and the constant warfare in the Balkans, between the Bulgars, Serbs and Frankish principalities etc left them all open to destruction when the Turks finally got their act together.

 

Originally posted by Heraclius

 It is fair to mention though the fierce resistance the Serbs offered the Turks, atleast unlike some they had the guts to stand up to them on more than one occasion. Although the Serbs were largely defeated had they been helped by their neighbours then perhaps the calls for a crusade from the west would of been unnecessary.

 I believe the Balkans had enough power by itself to stop the Turks if it united against its common enemy whilst it had time to do so, Byzantium had provided that kind of unity for centuries the constant squabbling and wars in the Balkans however instead of replacing Byzantiums uniting influence only sought to weaken it and in turn weaken the Balkans as a whole.

 The Turks at times probably couldnt believe their luck that so many people were so blind to the danger they represented.

 
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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:20

^^^  you totally misunderstood what i'm saying.

 Its a figure of speech "Couldnt believe their luck", its to illustrate the divided and fragmented situation of the South East Europe at that time, which made the conquest of the Balkans easier for the Ottomans than it would of been had it been unified under 1 strong power.

 Sounds like common sense to me.

 EDIT: Its surely easier to destroy a lot of small and comparatively weak nations than it is to destroy 1 or 2 unified powerful ones.



Edited by Heraclius
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:28
Originally posted by Heraclius

^^^  you totally misunderstood what i'm saying.

 Its a figure of speech "Couldnt believe their luck", its to illustrate the divided and fragmented situation of the South East Europe at that time, which made the conquest of the Balkans easier for the Ottomans than it would of been had it been unified under 1 strong power.

 Sounds like common sense to me.

 EDIT: Its surely easier to destroy a lot of small and comparatively weak nations than it is to destroy 1 or 2 unified powerful ones.

You have lots of words like; if, had and luck. So my conclusion of youre posts whas "Did we rule balkans and anatolia by luck no military tactics and such?"

As for the "bulgarians" out here, what you do is exact the same as Macedonians do with "We are the ancient Macedonians". Its the same story with the same lie. 
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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:33

 We are discussing history, its full of what ifs and hads and maybes, not all of it belongs in the "Historical amusement" section.

 I'm sure theres more than a few Turks out there who entertain what would of happened IF or HAD some battle been won, some war not been lost, some Sultan not ruled.

  Just because what i'm saying wouldnt of favoured the Turks doesnt give you the right to say to me "Man before i get mad, get the hell out off here" who exactly do you think you are to talk to me or any other members like that?

 I somehow doubt you'd be so annoyed if I had offered a few what ifs that favoured the Ottomans would you, I wonder why.
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:44
Originally posted by Heraclius

  Just because what i'm saying wouldnt of favoured the Turks doesnt give you the right to say to me "Man before i get mad, get the hell out off here" who exactly do you think you are to talk to me or any other members like that?

I got offended whit youre silly if's, maybe's, had's and luck's. WHo i exactly am? Well i am the who got blaimed for everything whats not good or bad in here. Dont you see "The bulgarian"s post with Lazar whas the first prince who started anti-Turk coalition, so whas he bright man for him because being anti-Turk!

Originally posted by the Bulgarian

You are right. All Balcan kings and rulers were shortsighed, fighting among themselves, instead of uniting against the common threat. Sometimes I ask myself how could they have been so blind in the face of the oncoming catastophy. The 500 years of Ottoman slavery were a horrible tragedy and we, the Balcan nations, are all responsible for our own foolishnes.

Originally posted by the Bulgarian

You are all very correct. What's really ironic though, is that Byzantium was the first state to bring the Turks to Europe, using them as mercenaries in her wars with Serbia, Bulgaria and the civil wars for the throne.

If I'm not mistaken the first serious anti-Turk coalition in the Balcans was assembled by prince Lazar. At least one bright man in Balcan pilitics...

 
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:48
Originally posted by Heraclius

 I somehow doubt you'd be so annoyed if I had offered a few what ifs that favoured the Ottomans would you, I wonder why.

We dont talk much with if's, had's and luck's we only talk of what did happen past and what we gonna learn of it. I find it childish and foolish talk with if, had, luck and maybe's. Thats why i posted first "if my ant had balls, she whas my uncle"
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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:50

 What are you telling me this for? what has what somebody else said got to do with me?  if you have a problem with him fine I honestly couldnt care less about your quarrels with other people, if your that offended let the forum mods sort it out.

 I don't understand how you can be so offended by what i've said, not once have I made the Turks out to be the scourge of the planet, not once have I tried making them out to be unworthy of their conquests or made their enemies out to be saints or perfect. I've simply suggested how a united Balkans as opposed to a divided one could of made a difference to events.

 From the way your reacting it seems any debate even remotely negative towards the Turks should be banned, i'm getting really tired of everytime anybody even dares to say something that doesnt favour the Turks they get jumped on and berated.



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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 13:58
Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Heraclius

 I somehow doubt you'd be so annoyed if I had offered a few what ifs that favoured the Ottomans would you, I wonder why.

We dont talk much with if's, had's and luck's we only talk of what did happen past and what we gonna learn of it. I find it childish and foolish talk with if, had, luck and maybe's. Thats why i posted first "if my ant had balls, she whas my uncle"

 By "we" I assume you mean Turks, ifso the amount of content on the "historical amusement" section of this forum by Turks on various "what ifs?" proves you wrong.

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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 14:03
Originally posted by Heraclius

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by Heraclius

 I somehow doubt you'd be so annoyed if I had offered a few what ifs that favoured the Ottomans would you, I wonder why.

We dont talk much with if's, had's and luck's we only talk of what did happen past and what we gonna learn of it. I find it childish and foolish talk with if, had, luck and maybe's. Thats why i posted first "if my ant had balls, she whas my uncle"

 By "we" I assume you mean Turks, ifso the amount of content on the "historical amusement" section of this forum by Turks on various "what ifs?" proves you wrong.

THERE IS A HUGE(!), BIG(!) DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MEDIEVAL HISTORY SECTION AND HISTORICAL AMUSEMENT SECTION!!
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Posts: 1231 		  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 14:05

 Do you somehow think putting everything in REALLY BIG LETTERS and BOLD will make any difference to the fact you've made something out of nothing?

 To tell you the truth your boring now, i've tolerated this stupidity long enough, you can talk to yourself from now on, because I won't provoke your hostility anymore by posting on this topic.

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Actually you arent the guy wich i wanna discuss with, but yea i did happin in a notverywell way, hope to see ya more in amusement section
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Man, history here really gets hot quick! Especially between Balkaners (btw this is probably some syndrome - if you say even one "not-good" word for my nation, you're in a personal war with me)! Maybe this is because most of the Balkan nations (or actually all, cuz I can't think of one which isn't) are living in the past instead of the present. So what? You're (DayI) insulted because you've interpreted something the way you like, so that you could start quarelling with people (type "Oh, do you see how bad are they by insulting us?")? Well, sorry man, but I'd suggest you to chill out! Past is past! No matter how much we discuss the "what if"s, we won't change anything. And only a fool would think there's use to argue so heartly about "what if"s. It's only suggestions of alternative history! And personally I think that you would prefer this alternate history than someone writing about all the bad things you're country had done in the past. And so that you don't get me wrong again and start blaming - I admit that every country has done terrible and barbaric things! Yours, mine and all else! If you want, I could even admit one (the only one I know btw) we've done - the "Revival process" at the late times of the Communism, when most of the Bulgarian Turks were forced to change their names with purely Bulgarian ones. Are you happy now? Good! Now stop blaming and heating up for what can't be changed!

Edit: Oh, not to forget to mention that I have nothing personal against you! I may not like Turkey as a state very much, because of our "common history", but I have nothing against the Turks, especially ones I don't personally know. In fact, for the Turks as a whole I have a rather good impression - most of the Turks I know are good and hard-working people. And lately there are even many cases where the Turks in one mixed (Muslim-Christian) village are helping with money and work to repair a Christian church, which IMO is a very honorable thing for them to do! So, no offence!


Edited by NikeBG
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Lets all kiss and make up. LOL
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Originally posted by NikeBG

Man, history here really gets hot quick! Especially between Balkaners (btw this is probably some syndrome - if you say even one "not-good" word for my nation, you're in a personal war with me)! Maybe this is because most of the Balkan nations (or actually all, cuz I can't think of one which isn't) are living in the past instead of the present. So what? You're (DayI) insulted because you've interpreted something the way you like, so that you could start quarelling with people (type "Oh, do you see how bad are they by insulting us?")? Well, sorry man, but I'd suggest you to chill out! Past is past! No matter how much we discuss the "what if"s, we won't change anything. And only a fool would think there's use to argue so heartly about "what if"s.
Its the same point that i whas talking about to "Heraclius" and also that's why i sayd "If my ant had balls she whas my uncle", -i agree with u

 It's only suggestions of alternative history! And personally I think that you would prefer this alternate history than someone writing about all the bad things you're country had done in the past. And so that you don't get me wrong again and start blaming - I admit that every country has done terrible and barbaric things! Yours, mine and all else! If you want, I could even admit one (the only one I know btw) we've done - the "Revival process" at the late times of the Communism, when most of the Bulgarian Turks were forced to change their names with purely Bulgarian ones. Are you happy now? Good! Now stop blaming and heating up for what can't be changed!
Why should i hate you? Only annoying point is blaiming such stuff to others all the time when discussing history.

Edit: Oh, not to forget to mention that I have nothing personal against you! I may not like Turkey as a state very much, because of our "common history", but I have nothing against the Turks, especially ones I don't personally know. In fact, for the Turks as a whole I have a rather good impression - most of the Turks I know are good and hard-working people. And lately there are even many cases where the Turks in one mixed (Muslim-Christian) village are helping with money and work to repair a Christian church, which IMO is a very honorable thing for them to do! So, no offence!
I have the same opinions about yours country but also nothing todo with local people. 

So "komshi" have a nice day.

 



Edited by DayI
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So komshi is a turkish word? heh, that means neighbor in Alb. I never knew that...
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Originally posted by Iskender Bey ALBO

So komshi is a turkish word? heh, that means neighbor in Alb. I never knew that...
 yeps, its actually Komshu means neighbour but ive heard it a lot in Bulgarian border (when i whas to plan to enter Turkey).
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