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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bulgaria
    Posted: 27-Jun-2005 at 05:40

Monteleone:

Your 're right, I confused them.

I have asked some of my friend, but nobody really interested. Sorry!

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2005 at 04:51

 

Here is a link:

http://www.mek.oszk.hu/01900/01954/html/index307.html

A Carpathian Basin before the Hungarian conquest according to the gesta of Anonymus.

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  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2005 at 08:38

 

Monteleone:

I have found this:

http://wikisource.org/wiki/Gesta_Hungarorum 

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  Quote The_Last_Byzantine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 17:05
The big tragedy of the Second  Bulgarian kingdom was that its kings did not understand that The Byzantine empire was not only an enemy but also their best friend,since for hundreds of years the empire protected the Balkan peninsula from persians,arabs,turks...During the 13th and 14th centuries bulgarian kings contributed a lot  to the depopulation of the byzantine lands and in this way to the decline of the Byzantine empire.This bulgarian improvidence is one of the causes for the ottoman fast success.

Edited by The_Last_Byzantine
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 11:26
You are right. All Balcan kings and rulers were shortsighed, fighting among themselves, instead of uniting against the common threat. Sometimes I ask myself how could they have been so blind in the face of the oncoming catastophy. The 500 years of Ottoman slavery were a horrible tragedy and we, the Balcan nations, are all responsible for our own foolishnes.

Edited by the Bulgarian
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 16:12

 I agree with both the_last_Byzantine and the_Bulgarian, the Balkan powers were incredibly short-sighted in not seeing the very real threat the Turks presented to them all.

 I dare say also the West was even more short-sighted its effective destruction of the only thing stopping the Muslim tide in favour of an impoverished and ultimately doomed Latin Empire goes far far beyond stupidity.

 However i'm sure at the time the Bulgars saw that turning down the opportunity to gain from the tottering Byzantine empire and the total chaos that was the Balkans in the 13th century was an opportunity they couldnt afford to miss.

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2005 at 22:23
To their credit, the Bulgarians played an important role in repelling the Arab invasion of Constantinople under Maslamah in 717.

Their actions post-1204 are understandable I think. Byzantium had been withering from its core for years and steadily losing ground to the Turks, unlike in the 8th and 9th centuries when she proved herself vigorous enough to fight on if only given the chance. Many of these Bulgarian rulers didn't want to destroy Byzantium but instead wanted to pick up the tab and take her place. The Serbians also aspired to this under such rulers as Urosh. Partly through their lack of resources (naval, military, political organisation, historical legitimacy) and partly through their mismanagment of trying to become the new Byzantium (Ioannitza and his atrocities against Greeks, wanton destruction in Byzantine lands), the Bulgarians couldn't quite fill the gap.
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 03:02

You are all very correct. What's really ironic though, is that Byzantium was the first state to bring the Turks to Europe, using them as mercenaries in her wars with Serbia, Bulgaria and the civil wars for the throne.

If I'm not mistaken the first serious anti-Turk coalition in the Balcans was assembled by prince Lazar. At least one bright man in Balcan pilitics...

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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 03:37

Most probably because, they know,the turks attacking balkain is  not all turks, but only a small turkish state. Infact It was smallest one.

 

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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 17:17
Originally posted by Mortaza

Most probably because, they know,the turks attacking balkain is  not all turks, but only a small turkish state. Infact It was smallest one.

 



That's correct, the Turks were far from being the united Empire they were in later times. Many individual tribes went where they wanted and even fought eachother. I think the Byzantine Emperors who brought the Turks into Europe either used mercenaries, or otherwise Emperors such as John VI called upon his Ottoman allies to whom he was tied by a marriage alliance. It was only a matter of time before these Turks realized just how weak the Balkans were and decided to invade without a Byzantine invitation.
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2005 at 18:02

 Had Byzantium been stronger during the 14th century I see no reason why it couldnt of recovered Anatolia, the Catalan company smashed the Ottomans and the Karamans in western and central Asia Minor leaving it open to reconquest. This was as pointed out partly due to the fact the Turks were so divided at the time, so had Andronicus II not effectively disbanded the best regiments of the army and the entire navy then the future for the Turks would of looked bleak instead of Byzantiums.

 Such as it was Byzantine weakness and the constant warfare in the Balkans, between the Bulgars, Serbs and Frankish principalities etc left them all open to destruction when the Turks finally got their act together.

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 07:18
It is even worse when you think about the fact that the Turks would've never conquered whole South-East Europe, if it wasn' for their Balkan (and Christian) vassals. Or as one man had said once: "The horrible truth is that the Balkans fell under the sword and the sabre of the Balkaners themselves." Or to quote the German historian Hamer (sp?): "The Ottomans advanced and conquered Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks, using the courage of Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks. And furthermore it's a shame that among the first to haste accepting to be Ottoman vassals were those, which were not on the first line of the battle. And for what? Again mainly for small politics and short-sightedness - so that they could fight with anyone, who's not Turkish vassal and with Turkish help to beat them. But because of this the Ottomans have such a big success and become such a big power - the splintered Balkan nations not only miss the chance to unite against the common enemy, but they also offer their services to the Ottomans. Hah, even the "famous" (at least here) Bulgarian-Serbian hero, Krali Marko, well-known from the folk songs for his great battles with the enslaver, actually died while performing his vassal duty, fighting on the side of the Turks in Dobrudzha! Yeah, Bulgarian and Balkan history as a whole are full of moments of unseen greatness and unimaginable disasters... Maybe that's why it's so interesting (and btw I wonder why hasn't anyone filmed something from it for the wide audience)?!
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 07:35

Actually, there was a movie about the fall of Constantinople, but this is all there is.

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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 07:42
Oh, do you know what's its name? And what (or whose) production is it? It would be interesting to see even this little...
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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 07:49

I don't know, but there's a thread on it somewhere. You should check it out.

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 07:54
Wasnt this threat only for fantazing what the "eventual" future movie of "the Fall" will be.Not that there is such movie.It actualy doesnt

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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 10:21

 It is fair to mention though the fierce resistance the Serbs offered the Turks, atleast unlike some they had the guts to stand up to them on more than one occasion. Although the Serbs were largely defeated had they been helped by their neighbours then perhaps the calls for a crusade from the west would of been unnecessary.

 I believe the Balkans had enough power by itself to stop the Turks if it united against its common enemy whilst it had time to do so, Byzantium had provided that kind of unity for centuries the constant squabbling and wars in the Balkans however instead of replacing Byzantiums uniting influence only sought to weaken it and in turn weaken the Balkans as a whole.

 The Turks at times probably couldnt believe their luck that so many people were so blind to the danger they represented.

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 11:27
I think it was the Dusan Empire which eventually led to the overall breakdown of the Balkans. Had the empire withstood, then I would say it would have brought enough unity to challenge the Turks, but the fast breakdown and the black hole that followed made it easy for the Turks to pick at the divided ashes. The empire further split the southeast balkans into even smaller feudal states and princelings, weakened Constantinople even further, created even more wars, which occured after Dusans distributions of land to other peoples. The balkans had a chance more then ever to stop the Ottomans after their breakdown in the early 15th century. Yet nothing happened. The Balkan peoples main problem was the, as John Fine said "I'll lead but I wont follow" mentality. It needed an empirial conquerer to unify all of them. Without a uniter, an Alexander so to speak, there was nothing. It reminds me of the ancients, the divided Greek kingdoms and cities against Persia, except even further divided through languages and ethnicities.

It is fair to mention though the fierce resistance the Serbs offered the Turks, atleast unlike some they had the guts to stand up to them on more than one occasion


After Kosovo, the Serbs never again even tried to attack the Ottomans, except in an occasion where Hunyadi was involved. George Brankovic was very careful never to even tempt the Ottomans into an attack.

. Although the Serbs were largely defeated had they been helped by their neighbours then perhaps the calls for a crusade from the west would of been unnecessary.


The Crusade of Pope Pius II completely failed. He died right after calling for it. Not only was it ignored, but it even further brokedown after his death. Which left Hunyadi and Scanderbeg completely out in the cold. Scanderbeg had attacked the Orind valley and broke a treaty signed with Mehmed Ii, similar with Hunyadi. Now they had a dead Pope and Crusade and an angered Sultan.


Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote Heraclius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 12:13

 I agree it is very similar to the ancient Greek city states fighting among themselves, Macedon united most of these states and Alexander showed what a united people could achieve against a great power in Asia. That kind of power was out of the grasp of the Balkan states of the 14th and 15th century, but they could at the very least have kept the Turks out of Europe.

 It really wouldnt of been very difficult, cooperation between the Balkan states with perhaps naval aid from Venice and Genoa (assuming those two could stop fighting each other for any length of time) would of assured that the Turks never got a foot-hold in Europe. 

 Who for a long while had no effective navy of their own, though even if the Balkans could of united I doubt the Venetians and Genoese could of put their differences aside or put the preservation of the Christians in south east Europe ahead of trade. Their selfishness is a chief reason why the fragmentation of South East Europe continued and Byzantiums impoverishment was assured. Its difficult to believe they could so often opt for short-term gain over long-term security and prosperity.

---

 When I say the Serbs should of been helped by their neighbours I don't mean in the form of a crusade, but could not Constantinople have sent men, the Bulgars, even the Latin rulers in Greece? it was after all, in all of their best interests to see the Turks defeated and expelled from Europe while there was still time.

 Leaving the Serbs to stand alone in a near suicidal gesture of resistance at Maritsa and Kosovo ensured the only significant power left in South East Europe was totally annihilated. As fragmented and divided as Serbia was after Dusan's death it was still the strongest of a whole host of divided and fragmented powers in the Balkans.

 It may well have made no difference, had all of the Balkans thrown everything they had in with Serbia, then perhaps they'd of all been destroyed sooner than they were. But they were going to be swallowed up eventually, they might aswell have gone for it whilst they had atleast some strength left to them and had not had to suffer the indignity of vassalage to the Sultan.

 Of course it's easy for me to say all this, but its surely better to give yourself a chance no matter how small rather than accept to suffer first humiliation and then destruction anyway.

A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Jan-2006 at 12:39

Leaving the Serbs to stand alone in a near suicidal gesture of resistance at Maritsa and Kosovo ensured the only significant power left in South East Europe was totally annihilated.

I dont understand why  do you  think,  It is suicidal, specialy maritsa  war.

At that times, ottoman powers are not large, they  have only 2-3 big cities.

 

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