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  Quote the Bulgarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Bulgaria
    Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:27
We have that word too. Balcan lenguages, especialy Bulgarian, have a lot of Turkish words.
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  Quote TheodoreFelix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 13:35
DayI, The Turks were the enemies of the Balkans yet none did anything to bring about a massive retaliation against them. Thats all that has been said, none made any attempt to offend Turks.

My point was if Venice could of been convinced an alliance against the Turks was in their long-term best economic interests then their naval support would of been invaluable.


I think it would have been significant to the Byzantines but to the landlocked or adriatic facing territories along with Bulgaria and the north balkans, it would have had little influence. The Balkans could have easily done without Venice's support. I actually think a weak Venice would have been better. A full struggle to dislodge the Turks would have left the empirialistic city with much more power over the very likely strained and weakened Balkan powers.

We have that word too. Balcan lenguages, especialy Bulgarian, have a lot of Turkish words.


The very name we use today to identify the peninsula peninsula is Turkish. Either we use the Turkish Balkan, or the Greek Haimos. Ah choices.

Edited by Iskender Bey ALBO
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 16:03
I belive that the word "balkan" is much older than ottoman invasion.As far as i know balkan comes from from balkar (aka bulgar) wich was used by byzantines to describe the borders with bulgarians.Until resentli there was other words like "balkan", like the old name of the tallest peak of the balkans (today Musala) was Han Tengri.One of the tallest peaks in Tian Shan is with the same name also.
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  Quote Jay. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 17:08
Just a question on this matter.. Who led the branch of Bulgars who migrated into the northern Balkans? I think it was in the 7th Century ..
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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jan-2006 at 17:12

Han Asparuh led them, but some of the bulgarians were already in the balkans(in mecedonia).Those in macedonia were led by han Kuber

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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 03:16
Actually, it's not completely certain when did Kuber settle in Macedonia. Don't forget that before his arrival in the Solun region, he had settled in Panonia, where he tried to take the power in the Avar khaganate, but being unsuccessful, he fled south. Most researchers believe that Kuber and Asparoukh settled in their own Bulgarias around the same time, i.e. around 680.
As for the Balkan - afaik, it's only a Turkish word, meaning mountain. Just like Musala (the highest peak in the Balkan Peninsula) means "close to God", I think. From where is your information about Han Tengri etc.? Cuz, if I remember correctly, the old Bulgarian name of the Balkan Mountain was something like "Matorie Gori". Just like the name of Macedonia was not Macedonia, but "Dolna Zemia", i.e. "Lower Land".
And yeah - there are a lot of Turkisms in the modern Bulgarian language. Komshu/komshia (neighbour), divan (sofa) etc.

Edit: Btw, is someone interested in something more about Bulgar and Bulgarian history? Cuz there are some things on Bulgarian, which might be interesting to you and I could translate them. F.e. something like a description of the battle of Anchialus, 917...


Edited by NikeBG
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 03:45

Just like Musala (the highest peak in the Balkan Peninsula) means "close to God", I think

 

Musalla stone(Musalla ta) is a stone death people lie just  before entombment. some type of close to God.

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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 04:00
Well, that's what I've heard, that's the legend - when the Turks conquered this region, one Turk climbed to the top of the peak and cried out of delight "Muss Allah", which was supposed to mean that he feels close to God. Or at least that's how I remember it, but I might have misunderstood something...
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 06:35
As far as this thread goes, it is not offensive for someone like Heraclius to say "if so and so happened, this may have been different". He is providing an analysis of the situation based on intelligent reading in the hope of demonstrating the realities of power in the Balkans and its political structure. He in NO WAY attempted to be offensive.

Day1, you are reading too much into this. I don't see other forum members get offended when they ask questions like "what if Harald Hardrade didn't invade England and it didn't become Norman". This has so far been an intelligent and civilized discussion without derogatory and offensive language displayed. Consider this an informal warning, in the future if you find something offends you then contact a moderator about it before telling members to
get the hell out
. This conversation is not headed in an offensive or unacceptable direction and if I have to take action against individuals to keep this acceptable thread open then I will do just that.
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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 06:47
Don't worry, I believe it's all settled down now!

Btw I have made some time ago something like a list with old Bulgar titles and names. Is anyone interested?
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  Quote Beylerbeyi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:17

Why would the Balkan states unite with each other against the Ottomans? Let alone with Venice? Those countries were enemies. Even the Turkish princedoms in Anatolia hadn't united against the Ottomans, they had the same religion, same language, same culture, unlike the Balkan states. Ottomans were a tiny frontier state in the beginning, they became an Empire in time.

You write things like 'Ottomans were lucky' because you have the hindsight, you have read the events of the future. Good stuff for historical amusement section.

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:36
Originally posted by NikeBG

  From where is your information about Han Tengri etc.? Cuz, if I remember correctly, the old Bulgarian name of the Balkan Mountain was something like "Matorie Gori".
i didnt mean the old name of Balkan.The old name, i think, of musala was han Tengri.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:38

tengri=God? It looks like old name was also turkish.

 

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:42
Before bulgarians accept christianity their god was tengri( the sky god).Bulgars were turkik tribe, so the word is from turkik origin yes
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:45
This topic discusses primarily the distribution of power in the Balkans in the Later Middle Ages. It seeks to understand the main political, military and ecclesiastic sources of power, conflict and how these affected the ultimate turnout of events. The "what ifs" of history which have been posed here are simply attempts to further understand and demonstrate the decisive factors at work for the Balkans at this time. If people did not pose questions, ask what may have alternatively happened or suggest hypotheticals then all posts on AE would be reduced to mere narrations of historical events. The fact is that this post is primarily concerned with actual historical events, their causes and this in turn raises questions and hypotheticals.

For that reason I shall not transfer this post to Historical Amusement, it belongs in Medieval.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:45

is this turkic tribe thing accepted by bulgarians?

If I am not wrong, most of them accept Iranic root, instead of Turkic root.

 

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:53
generaly the turkik root is accepted, but resently it become very debatable and uncertan.

Edited by Subotai
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 07:58

it would be much painful for bulgarian ultra-nationalist,  to  accept Turkic  root.

 

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  Quote Isbul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 08:01
Yeah they are even unaware that the sign they are using is turkik i think (IYI)

Edited by Subotai
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  Quote NikeBG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jan-2006 at 08:13
Originally posted by Subotai

generaly the turkik root is accepted, but resently it become very debatable and uncertan.

The roots of the Bulgars are quite uncertain and most of it is just speculations. There are all kinds of theories - that they were Hunnic, Turkic, Persian (Iranian), even Siberian! And because there is no clear evidence (it's the Asian Steppes in the late Antiquity and early Middle Ages after all) most people just tend to pick what they like - "We're not Turkic, because someone could mistake us as Turkish and we don't like the Turks" or "We're not Hunnic, because the Huns were just savage barbarians, while we were noble and civilized". While the Iranian trail is somewhat better, because it makes us descendants not only of one of the greatest empires of the world, Persia, but also of another great (or maybe even greater) empire - Alexander's Hellenic empire. The trail is that Alexander, when conquering Persia, also conquered the supposed to be ancient Bulgar heimat, the Persian province of Balkhara, called by the Greeks Bactria. And because Alexander's Macedons mixed with the local population, then their descendants are both Persian and Greek.
While in my opinion the Bulgars were just like any other Steppe tribe: an amalgam of everything - Turkic, Scythian, Persian and all other kinds of people. There are even some linguistic theories that "Bulgar" itself means "mix". So, all in all, the Bulgar's roots are "dark India" and could hardly be fully proven!
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