Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

The Battle of Lubieszow, 1577

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Battle of Lubieszow, 1577
    Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 18:20
I found nice description about this battle but there are few things which puzzles me.
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Lubiesow.htm

On the right thing there was a hand to hand combat between German infantry wielding pikes and Haiduks in Polish service. Haiduks got the upper hand in the fight: breaking the Landsknecht pike.

Maybe some experts of renaissance warfare can explain me how it is possible for non-armored light infantry (haiduks were arquebusers) with sabres to brake armored pike men formation.

In the ancient battles Romans had large shields and body-armor to screen the pikes of pikemen formation successfully, but haiduks didn't had that type of equipment.

There are few possibilities:
1) Landsknechts in that wing were seriously outnumbered by haiduks.
2) Landsknechts suffered huge losses from arquebus fire before they moved into melee.
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 18:35
I have an idea. Possibly the haiduks were able to duck under the Landsknechts' pikes and cut them from below, and then in a swoop were able to stab at the landsknechts. Or, possibly, they outflanked the landsknechts and then eliminated them.

Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 19:03
Originally posted by Emperor Barbarossa

I have an idea. Possibly the haiduks were able to duck under the Landsknechts' pikes and cut them from below, and then in a swoop were able to stab at the landsknechts. Or, possibly, they outflanked the landsknechts and then eliminated them.

Well it could be true about the ducking under the pikes, but as far as I know for example Spanish had Rodeleros (sword and buckler men) unit which used to attack ducking under the pikes when the two blocks of pikemen where already in melee. Though they used this unit only for short time in 16th century, + the Rodeleros had steel shield and some body-armor afaik.

And speaking about outflanking, I imagine that it would be very hard to do because some haiduks would have to engage Landsknechts frontally so that the other part of haiduks could outflank pike formation. Engaging frontally without any protection would be suicide imo.
Back to Top
Emperor Barbarossa View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Jul-2005
Location: Pittsburgh, USA
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
  Quote Emperor Barbarossa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 19:31
I can see your first option being a very real possibility. Think about it, if the haiduks saved up all of their ammunition until they were close, they could have inflicted huge casualties before melee. Also, they might have done some long range fire to inflict a few casualties. Axeman, do you have any information on the marksmanship of the haiduks?

Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2007 at 19:49
My first option could be explanation but I was puzzled that the author put the emphasis on the hand to hand fighting.


Well Haiduks had arquebuses instead of muskets. Arquebus is lighter than musket and it also has smaller range - 150-200 m, while musket's range is 250-300 m. Though firing at max range was kinda worthless due to poor accuracy. So effective range was about 75 m.
They fired by ranks in formation so I don't think that marksmanship was in case here and 16th century firearms didn't have aim-sight. So the haiduks probably just aimed in the level of foe.
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 02:30
Originally posted by axeman

I found nice description about this battle but there are few things which puzzles me.
http://www.kismeta.com/diGrasse/Lubiesow.htm

On the right thing there was a hand to hand combat between German infantry wielding pikes and Haiduks in Polish service. Haiduks got the upper hand in the fight: breaking the Landsknecht pike.

Maybe some experts of renaissance warfare can explain me how it is possible for non-armored light infantry (haiduks were arquebusers) with sabres to brake armored pike men formation.
 
Axeman, this description on that page is the summary of the Radoslaw Sikora's book 'Lubieszw 17 IV 1577'. I have this book, so I can write the answer to your question.
Sikora (basing on primary sources quoted in the book) explains this event in this way:
Hajduks shot to advanced landsknechts, but it didn't stop landsknechts. Then the captain of hajduks (Wadacz Michał) ordered to throw away arquebuses and to attack with sabres and axes. The first impact was suicidal for Hajduks. Almost 5 captains and 36 'dziesietnikow' (dziesietnik - a commander of unit of 10 soldiers - similar to Roman 'decurion'; dziesietniks were deployed in the first rank) were killed, while 1 captain and 3 dzisietniks were wounded. Hajduks in total had 600 soldiers, including 60 dziesietniks deployed in the first rank. As you can see about 66,6% of dziesietniks were killed and wounded! It was a slaughter of commanders. But thanks to dziesietniks (and captains) who absorbed the first impact, the hajduks of 2nd and next ranks could cut landsknechts' pikes. They did it. Hajduks (having sabres and axes) cut piks and 'charged' landsknechts. Finally the landsknechts were broken and defeated.
The total losses of hajduks were:
killed - 5 captains of hajduks, 36 dziesietniks and 0 (!) hajduks
wounded - 1 captain of hajduks, 3 dziesietniks and 74 hajduks.


Edited by ataman - 17-Jan-2007 at 02:40
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 03:32
Thanks for explanation, ataman.
As far as I know dziesietniks were armed with partisans, halberds and stuff like that so they could take the pikes head on head.
But zero haiduk casualties just puts me think that those Landsknechts were in pretty bad condition- having little battle experience while haiduks were  probably battle hardened veterans.
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 03:58
Originally posted by axeman

But zero haiduk casualties just puts me think that those Landsknechts were in pretty bad condition- having little battle experience
 
Well, there is a register of prisoners of war which shows that those landsknechts were very experienced soldiers. Most of them had at least few years of service in an army.
Archeology confirms it. Most of landsknechts' bodies founded at Lubieszow have old (made long time before the battle) wounds. It shows that they were experienced soldiers.
 
Originally posted by axeman

while haiduks were  probably battle hardened veterans.
 
Haiduks were the best of the best. It was Bathory's (means royal) guard. Sikora claims that only thanks to their incredible good quality (especially their immunity from fighting stress) they were able to win.


Edited by ataman - 17-Jan-2007 at 04:40
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 04:20
Oh those haiduks in right wing were royal guard, ah well that explains everything  Big%20smile.
Just makes me wonder why the infantry in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth wasn't  highly regarded. Probably nobles' distrust to king.
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 04:36
Originally posted by axeman

Oh those haiduks in right wing were royal guard, ah well that explains everything  Big%20smile.
Just makes me wonder why the infantry in Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth wasn't  highly regarded. Probably nobles' distrust to king.
 
To explain something - these haiduks were Hungarians. In 1577 Poland almost didn't have own infantry. Polish nobility prefered to serve in cavalry. Even the poorest Polish noble prefered to be a servant in cavalry than to be infantrymen.
The only one unit of infantry where Polish nobles served was created by Bathory (in 1580 if I remember), but it existed very short time.
Anyway, apart from nobles infantry Bathory created in Poland 'wybraniecka' infantry and reformed old Polish infantry. All these reforms were very important in Polish military history. Next reform of infantry was made by Wladyslaw IV Waza in early 1630's.


Edited by ataman - 17-Jan-2007 at 04:46
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 11:51
Originally posted by ataman

 
To explain something - these haiduks were Hungarians. In 1577 Poland almost didn't have own infantry. Polish nobility prefered to serve in cavalry. Even the poorest Polish noble prefered to be a servant in cavalry than to be infantrymen.
The only one unit of infantry where Polish nobles served was created by Bathory (in 1580 if I remember), but it existed very short time.
Anyway, apart from nobles infantry Bathory created in Poland 'wybraniecka' infantry and reformed old Polish infantry. All these reforms were very important in Polish military history. Next reform of infantry was made by Wladyslaw IV Waza in early 1630's.


Could you inform me more about these military reforms. I have heard of both of them though I have little knowledge about the actual changes.
1) Old polish infantry (before 1570) - what was their equipment and what troop types formed it?
2) What kind of reforms were introduced by Batory? I know only about that he introduced haiduk type of infantry and also wybraniecka (selected ) infantry - though their were peasants which didn't see actual battle but were used mainly as labor force - roads, ditches, bridges etc.
3)The reforms made by Waza - I know that he introduced more western style army formations - pikemen, musket as firearm, reiter cavalry, dragoons (did they fought as cavalry or they dismounted before the battle). Any comments on this would be valuable.
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2007 at 14:21
Originally posted by axeman

Could you inform me more about these military reforms. I have heard of both of them though I have little knowledge about the actual changes.
 
Axeman, have you already read this article
 
It might be useful for the begining.
 
Few more comments to this point below:

Originally posted by axeman


3)The reforms made by Waza - I know that he introduced more western style army formations - pikemen, musket as firearm, reiter cavalry, dragoons (did they fought as cavalry or they dismounted before the battle). Any comments on this would be valuable.
 
In 1629 (I mean in the last year of the war with Sweden; during Zygmunt III Waza's reign) Polish infantry consisted of 11 228 soldiers, including 8128 foreign infantry (72%). 
Wladyslaw IV Waza increased the proportion of foreign infantry to Polish-Hungarian one to about 84-86% (for example in 1633 there were 10 700 'foreign' infantrymen and only 1750 Polish-Hungarian ones). As you can see the change wasn't too significant, but...
Before Wladyslaw's reform these foreign infantry were true foreigners, while after his refom they had only name 'foreign'. In fact they were citizens of Commonwealth who were recruited to infantry modeled on foreign (German) model.
Another difference was, that before Wladyslaw's reform, foreign infantry hired by the Poles, didn't use piks at all (they were only musketeers). Since Wladyslaw's reign, 'foreign' infantry used also piks.
It might be also interesting, why Poland (since 1620's) became use more foreign infantry than old Polish-Hungarian one. For a long time historians claimed that Hungarian infantry was inferior to reformed by Gustaw Adolf Swedish infantry. And therefore Zygmunt III Waza (and later Wladyslaw IV Waza) hired Germans (or later - modeled Polish infantry on German model). But new theory claims something opposite. It wasn't any superiority of German infantry over Hungarian one (well, the battle of Lubieszw 1577 might be very good example that well trained Hungarian infantry was superior to German one). It was the shortage of Polish commanders who could train recruits. During Bathory's reign, they were Hungarians (from Transylwania) who trained new Polish infantry. But during the war with Sweden 1626-1629, Transylwania was in the enemy camp. Poland couldn't hire neither haiduks nor commanders from Transylwania. So the problem of the shortage of Polish infantry (and commanders who could train recruits) was resolved by hiring commanders and infantrymen from current ally - means from emparor's / German countries.
 
As far as reiter cavalry is concerned, it is not true that Wladyslaw introduced this kind of cavalry to Poland. Reiters were used in P-L Commonwealth also in Zygmunt's time. For example in the battle of Kircholm 1605, Chodkiewicz's army was supported by 300 Courland reiters.
It is also not true that Wladyslaw introduced dragoons to Polish army. They were used (in significant amount) at least since the war with Sweden 1626-1629. 
In Poland dragoons were only mounted infantry. They didn't need to fight like cavalry, because Poland had enough other (and better) types of cavalry.
But apart from infantry, Wladyslaw reformed Polish artillery. Few people know that thanks to Wladyslaw IV Waza Poland introduced regimental artillery 3 years after Sweden.


Edited by ataman - 17-Jan-2007 at 14:39
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 13:33
Originally posted by ataman

 
Axeman, have you already read this article
 
It might be useful for the begining.

I already know that site, though the information is rather plain concerning Polish old infantry and its equipment. Currently I am looking for reference pictures of old infantry (1500-1570).

And thanks for the answer - it's really valuable for me.

Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 14:46

Originally posted by axeman

 Currently I am looking for reference pictures of old infantry (1500-1570).

 
Here you are Polish infantry in the battle of Orsza 1514
 

 
 and next picture of Polish infantry in the battle of Orsza 1514 (during fighting)
 



Edited by ataman - 18-Jan-2007 at 14:53
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 14:55
Ok, we see heavy armored infantry with staff weapons and large pavise shields, armet(?) helmets.

Did Polish heavy infantry used pavise shields till the reforms of Batory?
And did they adopted pike during 16 century before Batory reforms?

Ah and in the second picture there are ranks of crossbowmen and arquebuser if i am not mistaken.


Edited by axeman - 18-Jan-2007 at 14:56
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 15:01
Originally posted by axeman


Did Polish heavy infantry used pavise shields till the reforms of Batory?
 
AFAIK they did.
 
Originally posted by axeman


And did they adopted pike during 16 century before Batory reforms?
 
Pike? No. They used spears (much shorter than pikes). BTW, Batory didn't introduce pikes to Polish infantry. It's true that there are some evidences that dziesietniks used partisans and that some (but not too many) haiduks used pikes, but generally haiduks used only guns, sabres and axes. It was Wladyslaw IV Waza who really introduced pikes into Polish army.
 
Originally posted by axeman

Ah and in the second picture there are ranks of crossbowmen and arquebuser if i am not mistaken.
 
You are right. There are soldiers armed of 'rusznice' (early arquebuses).
According to Jan Wimmer, in the early 16th c., Polish infantry was composed of:
- kopijnicy (spearmen) 1/8 of unit. They were in the front rank. Because they wore armors and were deployed in the first rank, they got double salary (like German doppelsoldiers)
- pawężnicy (soldiers armed of 'pawęże' shields, they also wore armors) 1/8 of unit. They were also doppelsoldiers
- strzelcy (shooter) 6/8 of unit.


Edited by ataman - 18-Jan-2007 at 15:16
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 15:12
Originally posted by ataman

 
Pike? No. They used spears (much shorter than pikes). BTW, Batory didn't introduce pikes to Polish infantry. It's true that there are some evidences that dziesietniks used partisans and that some (but not too many) haiduks used pikes, but generally haiduks used only guns, sabres and axes. It was Wladyslaw IV Waza who really introduced pikes into Polish army.
 


Well I know that Batory didn't introduce pike, my only sources about Polish renaissance army comes from two Osprey books about them. Though I still prefer wider research from other sources.
I guess if Poland had been involved more into the warfare in the west (HRE) , they would adopt pike much faster.
In my opinion war played important role into the Polish social structure. If there would be more wars in the west - that means more infantry required -> raised from the peasants and towns people. In this way to counter enormous noble influence.
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 15:42
Originally posted by axeman


I guess if Poland had been involved more into the warfare in the west (HRE) , they would adopt pike much faster. In my opinion war played important role into the Polish social structure. If there would be more wars in the west - that means more infantry required -> raised from the peasants and towns people. In this way to counter enormous noble influence.
 
I'm affraid my opinion is a little different. I agree that a war played important role into the Polish social structure (especially in 17th c., which was almost a permanent war. Opposite to 17th c., 16th c. was much more peaceful). But look at this - Poland in early 16th was involved in war against Teutonic Order, which represented Western art of war. In the period 1577-1620 Polish army also fought with Western armies. But the battles of: Lubieszw 1577, Byczyna 1588, Kircholm 1605 or Kłuszyn 1610 shows that Polish army and Polish art of war was superior to Western ones - if only Western armies fought in the open field. Polish army didn't need more infantry and Polish infantry didn't need pikes to win with superior in number Western enemies. The real problem for Poland became in this time, when enemies became avoid open fields battles. In this situation, Polish cavalry couldn't decide about the outcome of a war. Infantry was necessary to siege and to attack fortified enemy.
As you can see, usefulness of infantry and cavalry was depended only on tactic of an enemy. But it wasn't depended on kind of enemy. The same problem Polish army had against Gustaw Adolf's army (who avoided open field battles) and against Cossacks, who prefered to fight behind tabor or behind other obstacle.


Edited by ataman - 18-Jan-2007 at 15:50
Back to Top
ataman View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 27-Feb-2006
Location: Poland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1108
  Quote ataman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 15:48
here is more detailed picture of Polish infantry at Orsza
 
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2007 at 19:13
Originally posted by ataman

But look at this - Poland in early 16th was involved in war against Teutonic Order, which represented Western art of war.

Teutonic Order was a shadow of its previous military might in 15th century

In the period 1577-1620 Polish army also fought with Western armies. But the battles of: Lubieszw 1577, Byczyna 1588, Kircholm 1605 or Kłuszyn 1610 shows that Polish army and Polish art of war was superior to Western ones - if only Western armies fought in the open field.

Well the victory in the battle of Kircholm was so effective just because horrible errors by Swedish command.

 Polish army didn't need more infantry and Polish infantry didn't need pikes to win with superior in number Western enemies. The real problem for Poland became in this time, when enemies became avoid open fields battles. In this situation, Polish cavalry couldn't decide about the outcome of a war. Infantry was necessary to siege and to attack fortified enemy.
As you can see, usefulness of infantry and cavalry was depended only on tactic of an enemy. But it wasn't depended on kind of enemy. The same problem Polish army had against Gustaw Adolf's army (who avoided open field battles) and against Cossacks, who prefered to fight behind tabor or behind other obstacle.

Your comments lead to conclusion that finally it was the western system which had better "art of war". Avoiding enemy, using own strengths (defense) and exploiting enemy weaknesses like not being able to take fortifications due to the lack of infantry is also an art of war.
It would be interesting to see Polish army in 30ty years war taking side of Catholic Union.
Btw did Commonwealth ever considered to get involved into 30ty years war? Though I guess that wasn't likely to happen because of wars with Muscovy, Tatars, Ottomans.


Edited by axeman - 18-Jan-2007 at 19:14
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.