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Spanish Imperialism

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  Quote Christscrusader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Spanish Imperialism
    Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 23:50
During the Age of Exploration, Portugal and Spain were competing for trade routes for spices. I was wondering, why did Spain ever attack its smaller neighbor Portugal, unless i'm mistaken i don't think it would of been too hard 1 vs 1. WHat are some other thoughts?
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 14:34
Portugal was part of the Spanish Kingdom during the first years of the 1500s...although, I think the Portuguese won their independence in 1518 or something of the like.  If a war on the mainland would occur it would have been very difficult for Spain because her forces were spread thin throughout her colonies in Asia and the Americas, while the Portuguese only major colony was Brazil, the rest were small and only needed city garrisons.
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  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 16:57

Yes at XV century, Spain and Portugal fight in the Peninsula (dinastical war) and crushed in the expansion by the Atlantic ocean (to frica)

But, finally, both countries suscribe treaty for regularize the expansion. Castille since Ceuta to Canary Islands (include); Portugal, since Canary Islands to South.

Then, when the spanish discover America, a new treaty was suscribe: Treaty of Tordesillas, a western border; when the iberic sailors arrived to Far East, both power stablished a new border, on the East. America and Pacific ocean for Spain; frica, Asia and ndico for Portugal

Since 1530 to 1580, both kingdom respected the treaty (more or less) You must think that was vast extension, they didnt fight for the same territory and they conquer, discover and trade without problems (problems with Spain or Portugal of course)

At 1580, the kingdom of Portugal was inherited by Philip II; we should remember that by that time, the Portuguese Empire was very rich. Since 1580 to 1640 the king of Castille was the king of Portugal.

Then Portugal started a rebellion (1641-1641), got the independence and since that time, Portugal is protected by England. A war against Portugal was a war with England.

 

bye

 

 



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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 10:59

Since this concerns me directly, I think I should respond.

At the end of the fourteenth century, Castille (the more accurate name at this point of time) did try to annex Portugal. Needless to say, Castill was defeated. This war lasted from around 1382-1411, so says the history books.

Tensions between Castille and Portugal cool down a bit, until the reign of King Afonso the V, monarch more famous for conquering several coastal Moroccan cities. He made an attempt to take the Castilian throne for himself, but failed. The victors were Ferdinand and Isabella.

Before Columbus, the Castillians did try to muscle in on Portuguese trade. They mostly failed, but they managed to confirm their hold on the Canaries (which had been disputed territory).

After that, there's mostly peace between Portugal and Castille (yeah, still Castille). Then comes that disastrous battle of Alcacer Quibir (1578) in which King Sebastian loses his life.  In 1580, King Philip of Spain inherits the Portuguese crown, wipes out a rag-tag resistence consisting of slaves and criminals, and God knows who else, and unites both monarchies (the two empires are apparently distinct though having one king is a great benefit). In 1640, taking advantage of a rebelion in Catalonia, Portuguese aristochrats rebel. War rages for a few decades, Portugal once again has her own king.

Now, Christcrusader, to answer your question, the Spanish did invade Portugal but failed the first round, only succeeding the second time because they had the support of the local elites.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 19:35
is there any REAL difference between Portugal and Spain culturally?
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  Quote J.M.Finegold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2005 at 19:45
Originally posted by Tobodai

is there any REAL difference between Portugal and Spain culturally?


Well, when I crossed the Southern Border into Portugal I found out Portuguese eat snails...   no Spaniard eat snails...we eat the foods of the heavens, paella.
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2005 at 10:34

Originally posted by Tobodai

is there any REAL difference between Portugal and Spain culturally?

There is some difference. While the spanish are this typical latin type, with some arabic influence in the south, the portuguese are a melting pot of german, frank, anglo-saxon, celtic and arabic influence, more than latin influence itself. Much of Portugal's culture was built in the Middle Ages by influence of these identities.

 

Oh, and during the Imperial Age, one main reason why there was no conflict was because the three major crowns (Portugal, Castille and Aragon) were, due to recorrent marriage agreements, all the same big happy family.

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  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 13:20

Originally posted by Dux

Originally posted by Tobodai

is there any REAL difference between Portugal and Spain culturally?


Well, when I crossed the Southern Border into Portugal I found out Portuguese eat snails...   no Spaniard eat snails...we eat the foods of the heavens, paella.

I once went to Seville. Just out of curiosity, I decided to eat some paella. I spent the entire week in the bathroom

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 16:38
Originally posted by Dux

Originally posted by Tobodai

is there any REAL difference between Portugal and Spain culturally?


Well, when I crossed the Southern Border into Portugal I found out Portuguese eat snails...   no Spaniard eat snails...we eat the foods of the heavens, paella.


Not true: Catalonians do eat snails.

And paella is typical of only one some regions of Spain: basically Valencia, where they do grow rice since long ago.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2005 at 16:56
Originally posted by Tobodai

is there any REAL difference between Portugal and Spain culturally?


Originally Portugal was part of the Kingdom of Leon and they actually speak an evolved form of Galician, also spoken in the region of that name in NW Spain. This language, unlike Castilian (Spanish) seems more directly related to ancient Leonese romance but with some peculiarities too.

After each of the two Portugese independences, etc. Portugal and Spain have ignored each other most of the time and I must say I know not too much about Portugal. I know though that someone said/wrote Emtre Espanha e o Oceano, o Oceano! (between Spain and the Ocean, the Ocean!), a sentence that, as Basque, I can't but subscribe.

While Portugal is pretty homogeneous, Spain is a true puzzle of nationalities and markedly different regions. Some has posted that Portugal is more "Germanic" and Spain more "Arab"... I don't think this is true, as both countries evolved very parallely in history.

I would say that Portugal is more Portugese (even if it sounds redundant) and Spain more Castilian. Portugal has always been a coastal Atlantic country, while Castile has been basically a plateau country with different coastal posessions. Portugal could have been one of these coastal posessions but they fought they wars and built their fortresses and avoided it.


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  Quote Pelayo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 16:49

There is some difference. While the spanish are this typical latin type, with some arabic influence in the south, the portuguese are a melting pot of german, frank, anglo-saxon, celtic and arabic influence, more than latin influence itself. Much of Portugal's culture was built in the Middle Ages by influence of these identities.

 

refernced from

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0855617.html

Portugal: homogeneous Mediterranean stock; less than 100,000 citizens of black African descent who immigrated to mainland during decolonization; East Europeans have entered since 1990

Spain: composite of Mediterranean and Nordic types

 

Their seems to be not insignificant differences between Southern and Northen Portugal.

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  Quote Pelayo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 16:57
And I agree, it was the Anglo-Portugese alliance that prevented invasion. Spain was too resource depleted as a political state shortly after that too do much, and I doubt there was the popular will to sustain one.
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 21:35
Not only the English protection but also the Portugese fortifications and their patrotism. When you reach the border between Spain and Portugal you see very different kind of fortifications in either side: Castilian forts are small, just border outposts... Portugese forts are true citadels able to resist large sieges. They were prepared: "si vis pacem..." 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2005 at 21:47

Spain itself did not experience much of the fortification revolution of the sixteenth century.  The theaters of war that were most active, Italy and the Netherlands, were the laboratories of the fortifications a la moderna, (or the trace Italienne) that so revolutionized warfare.

The more extensive modern fortifications were along the low lying borders with France and Navarre, northwest and southeast of the Pyrranese.  Spain spent much of its treasure fortifying its dependencies.

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 08:35
Well, I just meant to point out that Portugal needed powerful fortifications to defend its territory from their much more powerful neighbour, while Spain obviously wasn't worried about any Portugese invasion attempt.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 09:35
True enough...were those fortifications of the modern (1500s) type, or older Medieval type?
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 11:03
I would have to make a search but I'm sure they are modern as the conflicts between Spain and Portugal centered in the time of colonial expansion, specially after the union under Philip II and the later Portugese war of independence. The same that Spain fortified it's borders with France, Portugal fortified its borders with Spain.

Btw, did you know that the walls of Pamplona were rebuilt separated from the city homes to prevent that its inhabitants could seize them easily?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Aug-2005 at 11:07
Interesting.  Thanks.
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  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Aug-2005 at 10:25
Well basically the traty which divided the new world between Spain and Portugal satisfied both parties enormously. They had vast new territories to conquer which would take them huge amounts of resources and time and would reap rich benefits. To spoil such a magnificent colonial opportunity by engaging in war with one another would have been only the highest stupidity.
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