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The Mughal Empire: Turkish or Indian?

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MarcoPolo View Drop Down
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Mughal Empire: Turkish or Indian?
    Posted: 19-May-2008 at 23:34
The Mughal Empire was established by Central Asians pushed out of there homeland and  set out and conquered South Asia, it is by no means an indian empire, in fact the Mughal empire conquered and wiped out several indian empires, enslaving them.
 
It was an empire founded by ''Turks'', ruled over by Turks, it did have a multicultural atmosphere (it would be akin to saying the Sikh empire was European or Panjabi since many Europeans where in the top ranks), but the ruling elite was always Turkish in the Mughal empire, wether they married here or there does not make a difference as Turkish and most societies, run on the father's blood line; and they married just about everyone, often having harems of more than 100 women!.  I never saw no indian ruling the empire at any point.
 
The Mughal empire was clearly a Central Asian Empire (Turk/Mongol).. that ruled and conquered india for over 200 years. 
 
 
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  Quote Penelope Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-May-2008 at 18:54
Originally posted by MarcoPolo

The Mughal Empire was established by Central Asians pushed out of there homeland and  set out and conquered South Asia, it is by no means an indian empire, in fact the Mughal empire conquered and wiped out several indian empires, enslaving them.
 
It was an empire founded by ''Turks'', ruled over by Turks, it did have a multicultural atmosphere (it would be akin to saying the Sikh empire was European or Panjabi since many Europeans where in the top ranks), but the ruling elite was always Turkish in the Mughal empire, wether they married here or there does not make a difference as Turkish and most societies, run on the father's blood line; and they married just about everyone, often having harems of more than 100 women!.  I never saw no indian ruling the empire at any point.
 
The Mughal empire was clearly a Central Asian Empire (Turk/Mongol).. that ruled and conquered india for over 200 years. 
 
 
 
Good point, it was definately not an Indian Empire. Also, each emperor continued to claim descent from Genghis Khan to the very end.
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  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jun-2008 at 11:15
The kind of terror the Mughals used against the former Imperials to silent the local population and  to build up their empire in India they certainly can not be called an Indian Empire, since Indian a civilized nation and due the foundation of Mughal empire went 1000 years backwards otherwise India would have been a developed nation by this time.
 
During the Muslim invasions and later by the Britishers it had become a practice to kill Gujjars, to terrorise other populations of India, since it was considered best by them to beat the Imperials first and as a result others will start behaving obediently.

Here is one example how Babar terrorised the local populace of India by killing Gujjars. He captured so many Mandars ( mainly children and woman) and taken to Kabul and that is the reason many of the Mandars in Pakistan does not even know that they have Gujjar Pratihars Imperial Heritage since no male adult was left alive.

"It was said that when in the cold season of 1528-9 , the Mandahars (Also written as Mandar is a celebrated gotra of Gujjars who are said to be the direct descendent of Gujjar Pratihars of Mandwar or Mandor and you may find millions of Gujjar Mandahars in and around Delhi) of the area of north of Delhi plundered villages and then defeated Babur’s forces to the number of 3000 men, a force of consisting of 4000 of cavalry and several elephants was sent against them, their settlement was razed to the ground.
According to Ahmad Yadgar “ the male Mandars were half buried in the ground and were shot to death to arrows.Abul Fazl quoted as a point about which both sound jurists and innovators are agreed , the opinion that the binding, killing or striking (of) the haughty and the chastising (of) the stiff necked are the part of struggle for empire."


Please the Page 10 of “Naukar, Rajput & Sepoy” The ethno-history of the Military Labour Market in Hindustan, 1450-1850 by Dirk H.A. Koeff University of Leiden for further reading.

 

The Britishers also terrorised the Indian but used differeny methods.




See the fact recorded by Mr.H.C. Williams in the Gazetteer of Dehra Dun of 1890 that how the britishers targeted Gujjars to tell others to bahave.

During the erstwhile British regime. During the middle of the 19th century a Gujjar called Kalua of , whose had terrorised the British forces for years by his constant attacks upon them. He did not trouble the local Indians but was a constant threat to the British forces. Such was the fear the British had of him that when finally he was captured his head was severed and stuck on a pole outside the jail for a month as an abject lesson to the local population not to oppose their 'masters'. This was before the first war of independence or as the Britishers preferred to call it 'the sepoy mutiny'. As a matter of fact Kalua was one of the first freedom fighters of the country.


Note: Real name Kalyan Singh, one of the General of Gujjar Parmar kingdom of Landhora. The Legend Yog Raj Singh was his ancestor who chased Amir Taimur in 1398, up to Ambala and did not allow him to loot this part of country.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 17:12

mughals faced stiff resistance from kings of north west india i.e., present day rajasthan during initial days of mughal empire . they wont have been able to rule a single day if these kings wont have aliegned with them but these kings were there only to protect hindu interests realizing that alone they wont be able to take the mighty mughal empire and looking at the fate of their predecessors who fought single handedly , they just to protect hindu interests led so many of mughal empire military expedition that it is unimaginable  for mughals to survive for a single day on their own,

                   and as soon as mughals lost the favour of rajputs as after jaswant singh's ,ruler of jodhpur death their downslide started . Durga das Rathore  gave such a fatal blow to Auranjeb that they were not able to stand on their  own after that.

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  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 18:22
A reminder, the Gurjar-Rajput topic is allowed in the Minefield only. 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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  Quote Sukhbaatar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 18:59
In response to some replies:
 
Yes Timur was descendant of Chingghis Khaan
Yes Babur was descendant of Chingghis Khaan
And yes Mughal emperors were descendant to the last end with Bahadur Shar
 
To be descendant of Chingghis means you are fit to rule the steppes, and hold a legitimate domain
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 05:21
I find Indians to be the most skewed when it comes to History. There is the "Indian Version" of history, and then the "Everyone Else's" Version of History.

So Mughals took India 1000 years back? Im sure the Vijayanagran Empire was doing an amazing job with India...

Without the Mughals, India would not have had Bollywood, because Bollywood uses Urdu and Urdu was invented under the Mughals. :)

On a more serious note, the reason India is so backward and poor is because of British Imperialism + Nehru's Socialism. British Empire took Indian wealth and transported it to Europe. Nehru was a fan of socialism, and thats how India's population went from 400 million in 1945 to 1 billion in 2005.

Lastly, Cultural Economics makes a difference. India has an Elitist Culture (Caste System) and it shows itself when you have 4/10 of the world's billionares in a nation that has the majority percentage of world's poor.
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 07:30
Not only was that post historically incorrect. It is also rather disparaging. Consider this some good advice not to needlessly put down other nations.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jun-2008 at 17:20
mughal empire was never an indian one, not only  in  its origin but rather in its spirit also . it took india 1000 years back . they were simple nomadics who wandered into india and took advantage of then split indian society.
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jun-2008 at 06:34
What were the Mughals?

The Mughals were simply thus: Mongol-Turkic warriors who invaded Hind. They were slowly Indianized to the point that they fused Indian and Persio-Islamic culture to create a new Indian flavor. To this end, they subjugated all the native Indians as well as the previous Muslim left overs of the Delhi Empire.

As for the Indians, they were never truly united. Although, it can be said the South Asian Sub-Continent from Kabul to Bangkok and then Malaysia and Indonesia inclusive are under the realm of a distinct Hindic-Central mode of thinking (as N Korea, S Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Mongolia and China are in the realm of the Sinic World).

What can not be argued is that the Indians were ever one people. They considered each other different as Europeans today consider themselves different from one another. Even the ancient Indian Empires could never conquer all of India, perhaps because they never considered it all as "India" as we do today.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jun-2008 at 19:26
the concept of akhand bharat , i.e., united india is a not a new one it dates back to 3000 years B.C .  so the question of indian empires considering themselves distinct from others doesn't arise .after all bharat word comes from King Bharat who ruled the whole of india during mahabharat.
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  Quote AP Singh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 15:02
Originally posted by Sukhbaatar

In response to some replies:
 
Yes Timur was descendant of Chingghis Khaan
Yes Babur was descendant of Chingghis Khaan
And yes Mughal emperors were descendant to the last end with Bahadur Shar
 
To be descendant of Chingghis means you are fit to rule the steppes, and hold a legitimate domain
 
Chingghis Khan was a Budhist and so his son grandson Halaku. Since Budhist religion originated from India the Mughal empire can be called an Indian empire.
 
But Mongols and Mughals were never true followers of their religion. The Budhist believe not to kill or harm any human being where Halaku, the grandson of Chinghis Khan is said to have killed 6 million Muslims in a single day while sacking Baghdad sometime in 13th. century.
 
Similarly Mughals never followed their Muslim religion except while it is used for their own gains. The Mughals never considered the Muslims equal to them and never married their daughters to anybody and many of Mughal females died unmarried.
 
Can anybody tell how the Mongols were converted to Muslim religion after the death og Halaku, the great conquerer?
 
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  Quote xi_tujue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 17:18
and berke converted to Islam so what

The Mughals where muslims be4 they entered India since Mughals are a branch or succesor of the Timurids = Muslims.

Mongols who converted To Islam intermixed with the Larger Turkic groups
I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 17:55
not just mughals most of the foreign invaders from central asia were at some point of time originated from india who some how converted to islam . one of the facts supporting above point is that afghanistan was originally named as awa - gaman -ka sthan  ie., the point of entry to india. people guarding this point originally hindus some how started practising islam . and the same people when came back to their native place came to be known as mughals or so on.
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  Quote MarcoPolo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 18:07
that sounds like revisionist history to me and doesnt make any sense?? 
 
this has nothing to do with hinduism, hinduism is a religion... there are hindus in Bali (indonesia) does it make them indian?? the answer is no!  there hindu's that live in Pakistan, does that make them indian?? again the answer is no!  There are Afghans who may follow hinduism as well.. the answer im sure you should know by now..
 
The Mughal empire was thru and thru, a Turkish based empire that ruled over a foreign land(india);  Ironically they went to war and conquered india from another foreign ruler, the Afghans who were then the rulers of the north west subcontinent.  In fact, a small minority of the decendents of the Mughals to this day,  still converse in their ancient Turkish dialect, a phenomenol sense of preservation considering they arrived in the region in 1526 and underwent considerable ''mixing''. 
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  Quote Mughal e Azam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 21:38
As said: "There is the "everyone's" version of history, then the "Indian" version of history."

Its most closely like Afrocentric history (the ancient chinese were black!) except with an indian garb.
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 21:55
Originally posted by AP Singh

Originally posted by Sukhbaatar

In response to some replies:
Accept it. They werent Indian. But they were your masters for centuries. 
Yes Timur was descendant of Chingghis Khaan
Yes Babur was descendant of Chingghis Khaan
And yes Mughal emperors were descendant to the last end with Bahadur Shar
 
To be descendant of Chingghis means you are fit to rule the steppes, and hold a legitimate domain
 
Chingghis Khan was a Budhist and so his son grandson Halaku. Since Budhist religion originated from India the Mughal empire can be called an Indian empire.
 
But Mongols and Mughals were never true followers of their religion. The Budhist believe not to kill or harm any human being where Halaku, the grandson of Chinghis Khan is said to have killed 6 million Muslims in a single day while sacking Baghdad sometime in 13th. century.
 
Similarly Mughals never followed their Muslim religion except while it is used for their own gains. The Mughals never considered the Muslims equal to them and never married their daughters to anybody and many of Mughal females died unmarried.
 
Can anybody tell how the Mongols were converted to Muslim religion after the death og Halaku, the great conquerer?
 
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  Quote Evrenosgazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jun-2008 at 21:57
They werent Indian, but they were your masters for centuries. Like the previous turkic states
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 20:07
mughals were never masters of indians . they simply were a makeshift type of arrangement.tehy were not able to take a simple step without help o findian states .  just because of their being so weak rulers , they could not leave any great impression on indian society .  moreover they took muslims back by thousands of years that mughal word has become synonmous with illetracy, barbarismand backwardness in india. .
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jun-2008 at 21:38
they could not leave any great impression on indian society


But they left a great impression Indian geography and blessed it with one of the wonders of the world, the Taj Mahal - they put India on the map.  They were THE prime polity in India, they were the ones with whom all European powers wished to have good trading relations.  They dwarf in scale and magnificence all other Indian states in the last millenium, perhaps the last two millenia.
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