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Cyrus the Great vs Alexander

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Cyrus the Great vs Alexander
    Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 03:15
Let me tell you something, many people find Alexander(or battle of Marathon)the first domination of west over east and recognize him as the greatest general.But wai, that guy(Alexander) was homosexual and he did not invade the world.He just invaded one empire(Persian) that was already decayed from within. And they call this idiot "the Great".The great what? The greatest ego of all time, that's what. He believed that if he slaughtered his way to the edge of the world, there he would meet God, his father, and they would be united in unimaginable power. He didn't make it. 4th century B.C.
In contrast Cyrus the Great invaded more than 20 empires at the height of their power. He beated Spartans who helped Croesus, the Athenians who helped the Ionians of the Lydian empire, he babylonians, the Egyptians,the MEdians. If he was not the greatest war leader and peace giver ever then who is?????????????? The Jews called him nominated by God and the greeks called him the law giver.The greeks knew him as their master and made such a mythic story about his life making him seem alike one of their mythic heros.In addition, he believed in one god and was Zoroastrian while Alexander was a Pagan.
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  Quote ArmenianSurvival Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 03:10

Originally posted by jamshidi_f

Let me tell you something, many people find Alexander(or battle of Marathon)the first domination of west over east and recognize him as the greatest general.But wai, that guy(Alexander) was homosexual and he did not invade the world.He just invaded one empire(Persian) that was already decayed from within. And they call this idiot "the Great".The great what? The greatest ego of all time, that's what. He believed that if he slaughtered his way to the edge of the world, there he would meet God, his father, and they would be united in unimaginable power. He didn't make it. 4th century B.C.
In contrast Cyrus the Great invaded more than 20 empires at the height of their power. He beated Spartans who helped Croesus, the Athenians who helped the Ionians of the Lydian empire, he babylonians, the Egyptians,the MEdians. If he was not the greatest war leader and peace giver ever then who is?????????????? The Jews called him nominated by God and the greeks called him the law giver.The greeks knew him as their master and made such a mythic story about his life making him seem alike one of their mythic heros.In addition, he believed in one god and was Zoroastrian while Alexander was a Pagan.

Why does it matter that Alexander was homosexual? Sexual preference has nothing to do with being a general. Oh sorry, maybe he thought the Persian soldiers were cute and decided to go a little easier on them. Just trying to make sense out of a useless comment.

Now, im not saying that Alexander was this great guy who should be praised, but he was a damn good general. I agree with you in that he was arrogant, i wont argue that. The Persian Empire was going through tough times when he invaded, but their forces still severely outnumbered the Greeks, so how can you find an excuse for that?

And you mention Cyrus conquered 20 empires at the height of their power. Can you tell me which empires, because as far as i know there werent even 20 empires in the world at that time, let alone in that region. 20 countries would make a lot more sense, but do you seriously think that Cyrus conquering tiny nations such as Armenia is so much more glorious than Alexander doing the same thing? You mention Alexander not invading the world...Alexander's empire was actually slightly larger in land mass than Cyrus's. Cyrus outnumbered virtually every army he faced by rediculous figures. Alexander was the exact opposite. Moreover, Alexander was a kid while Cyrus was old enough to be his dad.

And you mentioned Cyrus was Zoroastrian while Alexander was a Pagan. Your point? Paganism is just as much a religion as Zoroastrian is. I dont see a point in that comment.

Im not trying to take anything away from Cyrus. He was a great general in his own right. Either side can be argued, but some of the points you make have nothing to do with the topic (such as sexual and religious preference). But you simply cannot say Cyrus is the outright better general and not give any credit to Alexander.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 12:19
Thanks a lot for your comments..........
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  Quote Kian_the_great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 20:58

Cyrus V.S Alexander

First of all Cyrus conquered assyrians and babylonians ,they were powerful for the record,

But comparing Cyrus and Alexander is pointless, Cyrus freed people, while alexander burnt perspolis down, slaughtering masses,

Alexander was a great military general,Cyrus was a better politician

Cyrus was wise, Alexander was emotional

Alexanders Empire broke up a year after his conquests, so technically he never had a country as big as Cambyses had, the country devided quickly into states...

Alexander is a good Millitary general, not a wise person

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2005 at 22:15
ArmenianSurvival, thanks, you saved me writing a very similiar post.

Kian_the_great wrote:

"But comparing Cyrus and Alexander is pointless, Cyrus freed people, while alexander burnt perspolis down, slaughtering masses,"
Alexander, while i dont like all that he did, only gave to persia what persia had already done to greece, eye for a eye. Burn athens = burn perspolis.

I can imagine alexander freed many nations from the persian yoke aswell.

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  Quote Kian_the_great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Dec-2005 at 22:55
dude, burn athens and burn perspolis, Athens was abandoned by that time, perspolis wasn't, and athens was burnt cause ionians burnt a persian city before.athens is still a city while perspolis is gone...
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  Quote PrznKonectoid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 00:21

Dude Herodotus's account of the Persian wars is SO fake. He makes Persians look like idiots, and everyone accepts his BS

Same with Alexander. The Greeks wrote history, so they make him so great leader, a great patriarch. He was a murderer. Alexander was to Persians what Hitler was to Jews. I cant believe westerners make a movie glorfying him, they might as well make a movie about how "great" Hitler was.

And ALexander probably didn't make the bulk of his military decisions. His generals did. It was only recorded as his, so now we think he is some great guy. But Cyrus didn't just conquer, he administrated, and respected the cultures in his empire. Alexander mocked and killed people.

And WTF Armenian survival, Cyrus didn't outnumber every army he faced?? The Lydians were far larger, as were the Babylonians. And when you combine his enemies they were massively larger then his army which conquered them all. And Alexander's empire might have been larger. But only cuz he only had to conquer one massive empire. Cyrus had to conquer all these individual states.

And Alexander might have been outnumbered, but the corruption within the Persian empire made administration virtually non-existant. So even though they had more forces, they couldn't mobilize all of them.

And you gotta remember that Cyrus knew how to control his peoples. He gave the Babylonians what they wanted. And Alexander tried to enforce his hellenistic BS on every subject in his empire. Greek statues from his era survive in Iran.

Seriously, if u call Alexander great, you might as well call Hitler, the Great. He was an evil bastard who killed so many Jews, but he was a strong leader and intelligent, much  more so than Alexander. And what pisses me off even more is that Alexander tried to marry a Persian woman. If he was alive and I saw him lay a finger on an Iranian woman I'd go beat his homo-ass

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 12:07
Kian_the_great wrote:
"dude, burn athens and burn perspolis, Athens was abandoned by that time, perspolis wasn't,"
First im not saying it was right. What i am saying, it was revenge and there was reason in it, right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Xerxes palace got special treatment, why would you think that was?

Athenians got out after seeing what the persians already did to many towns and villages on their way in. Would of thought that was the obvoius thing to do, why the citizens of persepolis hang around, i dont know.

"and athens was burnt cause ionians burnt a persian city before.athens is still a city while perspolis is gone..."
So you rationalise the burning of athens, its acropolis and many other sacred santuaries for revenge on the ionians, but cant see this cycle of revenge return back on the persian.

athens has come back many times in history, persepolis simply didnt.

"Archaeologists have shown that the palace at Persepolis was not completely destroyed (there was human occupation after the fire) and that several buildings received a special treatment from the arsonists. For example, the palace of Xerxes was damaged more severely than that of Darius. It can also be shown that the fire started in the Apadana and the Treasury, and that not all precious objects had been removed."source

You cant see history as something that is black and white, good vs bad. Persians had attcked the hellenic world and brought it upon themselves, neither side showed much mercy when the fighting began.
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  Quote Kian_the_great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 12:21

what is your point dude? history is not black and white,

but you can find chapters where they are lighter or darker, and

Alexander's had more dark, he was a good millitary leader, not a wise person,

he made many mistakes, and well he is hated by iranian nationalists as much as loved by greek ones,

i still cannot see your point

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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 15:53
 

There are many theories on why Macedonians attacked Achamenids where they knew they were clearly considered to be the under dog. I doubt that the real reason was to get revenge for burning of Athens 200 years earlier. Most people probably didn't even remember that. It would be like toady's American or Mexican being concerned with what happened at the alamo today. To top that Alexander was not really Greek or at least Athenian hard to believe that he was very concerned with history of Athens. In reality Achamenid's time was up. Persians had too much of money and small but growing group of people surrounding them lived in practical poverty and did not have much to lose. There was a reason that many Greek tools job as mercenaries and other functions in the Persian Army they needed the money to survive, and military was the biggest employer of that time. If it was not Macedonians it would been some other group very soon

 

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 17:11
Yes, I think the concept of him taking revenge is romantic narration.
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 17:47
Originally posted by PrznKonectoid

If he was alive and I saw him lay a finger on an Iranian woman I'd go beat his homo-ass

Someone has to bring this up, so let that person be me: I don't think homophobic remarks should be tolerated in this forum.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 17:57

I agree. I apologise for not acting on it, I didnt see it as I just scanned the post for egenral tone.

PrznKonectoid: please refrain from making bigoted statements and remarks, consider this as an informal warning.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 21:57
To make another example of alex' ruthlessness and vengeful ways can i point to the fate of the Branchidae inside Sogdiana. Thse people, a hereditary priestly group that were ment to protect Didyma turned over the temple to xerxes, who plundered and burnt it down (479BC), in return for their saftey. Such a sacrilegie ment, they had to leave Ionia for their safty to be garrantued.

Move foward around 150 years, they came out to greet alexander's army speaking greek, holding olive branches and submited their city to him. What he did next, was a crime; he wiped out everyone one of them (kids and all) and the city was completety destroyed (327BC). A fate worse than persopolis and to greeks not persians.

PBS has a narrative of this event here

There is nothing romantic about this revenge or any other, nor is this episode glorified hellenic nationalism. It tells you he was ruthless and unforgiving. But their was something needing forgiving in the first place.  Importantly it also is a good example of the revenge factor in his war within the greater context of the aggresion and insults perpertrated by xerxes.

So it isnt romantic to think that revenge is a part of the motive in persopolis, nor is it safe to assume that alexander didnt care for what happened earlier to greece.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2005 at 22:20
"i still cannot see your point"
You pick the best bits of one of your best ruler's and the compare it to the worse bits of one of the best generals (but prematurly dead rulers) of the greeks.

 You also take alexendar's actions in complete isolation to the greater conflict and crimes that had being waged by both sides, and ignore the fact that it was originaly bought about by persian expansion.

Should i compare our the great statesman pericles to master bad guy of the greeks xerxes? is that a fair comparison?.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 03:09

And lets not forget that Cyrus trained his own men for battle against empires of Babylon, Media, Lydia etc. Whilst Alexander inherited a fully organized well trained army from his father.

Seconed, Athens today is now a thriving capital of Europe. Persepolis is nothing but old ruins.

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  Quote Kian_the_great Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 10:11

You pick the best bits of one of your best ruler's and the compare it to the worse bits of one of the best generals (but prematurly dead rulers) of the greeks.

 You also take alexendar's actions in complete isolation to the greater conflict and crimes that had being waged by both sides, and ignore the fact that it was originaly bought about by persian expansion.

Should i compare our the great statesman pericles to master bad guy of the greeks xerxes? is that a fair comparison?.

What good did Alexander do? give me 3,

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 12:54

first of all, i just want to say one thing: ALEXANDER WAS NOT GREEK! HE WAS MACEDONIAN! the greeks thought of the macedonians as barbarians just like they thought any other non greek ethnicity was barbaric.

alexander, in my opinion, was no different than genghi khan.  infact, they were the exact same, both brutal, both heartless, and both great generals.  alexander was no doubt the greatest general of his time. 

and another fact is that the greeks were the first to invent organized armies, they were the first to use strategies (instead of just hurling thousands of men at each other, like the Persians did).  they were the first to not think about numbers but more in terms of weaknesses of the enemy.  Persia, as well as all the other countries and empire for a long time did not have this, they didnt even train most of their troops (they just got peasants and gave them swords and put them in the army in times of war) and that is why alexander won those battles. an organized force will beat an larger but disorganized force everytime!

 

but in the end, cyrus did more for the world then alexander did, so i have to go with cyrus.

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 12:56
Originally posted by Faeghi

And lets not forget that Cyrus trained his own men for battle against empires of Babylon, Media, Lydia etc. Whilst Alexander inherited a fully organized well trained army from his father.

Seconed, Athens today is now a thriving capital of Europe. Persepolis is nothing but old ruins.

athens is not a thriving capitol of europe....lol.  and what about isfahan, shiraz, tabriz.... when athens died out for thousands of years (after the roman invasion, and even today it is no longer an important city) tabriz, isfahan, and shiraz were the centers of empires, of culture, of art, of politics! and those cities still exist!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Dec-2005 at 19:01

Im not talking about Isfahan, Shiraz, Tabriz. Im talking about Persepolis today comparing to the revenge for Athens. Athens is a well known capital, it was the Western world's leading cultural, commercial and intellectual center, and indeed it is in the ideas and practices of ancient Athens that what we now call "Western civilization" has its origins.

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