Cyrus the Great vs Alexander

Originally posted by jamshidi_f Let me tell you something, many people find Alexander(or battle of Marathon)the first domination of west over east and recognize him as the greatest general.But wai, that guy(Alexander) was homosexual and he did not invade the world.He just invaded one empire(Persian) that was already decayed from within. And they call this idiot "the Great".The great what? The greatest ego of all time, that's what. He believed that if he slaughtered his way to the edge of the world, there he would meet God, his father, and they would be united in unimaginable power. He didn't make it. 4th century B.C. In contrast Cyrus the Great invaded more than 20 empires at the height of their power. He beated Spartans who helped Croesus, the Athenians who helped the Ionians of the Lydian empire, he babylonians, the Egyptians,the MEdians. If he was not the greatest war leader and peace giver ever then who is?????????????? The Jews called him nominated by God and the greeks called him the law giver.The greeks knew him as their master and made such a mythic story about his life making him seem alike one of their mythic heros.In addition, he believed in one god and was Zoroastrian while Alexander was a Pagan.

Why does it matter that Alexander was homosexual? Sexual preference has nothing to do with being a general. Oh sorry, maybe he thought the Persian soldiers were cute and decided to go a little easier on them. Just trying to make sense out of a useless comment.

Now, im not saying that Alexander was this great guy who should be praised, but he was a damn good general. I agree with you in that he was arrogant, i wont argue that. The Persian Empire was going through tough times when he invaded, but their forces still severely outnumbered the Greeks, so how can you find an excuse for that?

And you mention Cyrus conquered 20 empires at the height of their power. Can you tell me which empires, because as far as i know there werent even 20 empires in the world at that time, let alone in that region. 20 countries would make a lot more sense, but do you seriously think that Cyrus conquering tiny nations such as Armenia is so much more glorious than Alexander doing the same thing? You mention Alexander not invading the world...Alexander's empire was actually slightly larger in land mass than Cyrus's. Cyrus outnumbered virtually every army he faced by rediculous figures. Alexander was the exact opposite. Moreover, Alexander was a kid while Cyrus was old enough to be his dad.

And you mentioned Cyrus was Zoroastrian while Alexander was a Pagan. Your point? Paganism is just as much a religion as Zoroastrian is. I dont see a point in that comment.

Im not trying to take anything away from Cyrus. He was a great general in his own right. Either side can be argued, but some of the points you make have nothing to do with the topic (such as sexual and religious preference). But you simply cannot say Cyrus is the outright better general and not give any credit to Alexander.

Cyrus V.S Alexander

First of all Cyrus conquered assyrians and babylonians ,they were powerful for the record,

But comparing Cyrus and Alexander is pointless, Cyrus freed people, while alexander burnt perspolis down, slaughtering masses,

Alexander was a great military general,Cyrus was a better politician

Cyrus was wise, Alexander was emotional

Alexanders Empire broke up a year after his conquests, so technically he never had a country as big as Cambyses had, the country devided quickly into states...

Alexander is a good Millitary general, not a wise person

dude, burn athens and burn perspolis, Athens was abandoned by that time, perspolis wasn't, and athens was burnt cause ionians burnt a persian city before.athens is still a city while perspolis is gone...

Kian_the_great wrote:
"dude, burn athens and burn perspolis, Athens was abandoned by that time, perspolis wasn't,"
First im not saying it was right. What i am saying, it was revenge and there was reason in it, right or wrong is a matter of opinion. Xerxes palace got special treatment, why would you think that was?

Athenians got out after seeing what the persians already did to many towns and villages on their way in. Would of thought that was the obvoius thing to do, why the citizens of persepolis hang around, i dont know.

"and athens was burnt cause ionians burnt a persian city before.athens is still a city while perspolis is gone..."
So you rationalise the burning of athens, its acropolis and many other sacred santuaries for revenge on the ionians, but cant see this cycle of revenge return back on the persian.

athens has come back many times in history, persepolis simply didnt.

"Archaeologists have shown that the palace at Persepolis was not completely destroyed (there was human occupation after the fire) and that several buildings received a special treatment from the arsonists. For example, the palace of Xerxes was damaged more severely than that of Darius. It can also be shown that the fire started in the Apadana and the Treasury, and that not all precious objects had been removed."source

You cant see history as something that is black and white, good vs bad. Persians had attcked the hellenic world and brought it upon themselves, neither side showed much mercy when the fighting began.

 

There are many theories on why Macedonians attacked Achamenids where they knew they were clearly considered to be the under dog. I doubt that the real reason was to get revenge for burning of Athens 200 years earlier. Most people probably didn't even remember that. It would be like toady's American or Mexican being concerned with what happened at the alamo today. To top that Alexander was not really Greek or at least Athenian hard to believe that he was very concerned with history of Athens. In reality Achamenid's time was up. Persians had too much of money and small but growing group of people surrounding them lived in practical poverty and did not have much to lose. There was a reason that many Greek tools job as mercenaries and other functions in the Persian Army they needed the money to survive, and military was the biggest employer of that time. If it was not Macedonians it would been some other group very soon

 

Originally posted by PrznKonectoid If he was alive and I saw him lay a finger on an Iranian woman I'd go beat his homo-ass

Someone has to bring this up, so let that person be me: I don't think homophobic remarks should be tolerated in this forum.

To make another example of alex' ruthlessness and vengeful ways can i point to the fate of the Branchidae inside Sogdiana. Thse people, a hereditary priestly group that were ment to protect Didyma turned over the temple to xerxes, who plundered and burnt it down (479BC), in return for their saftey. Such a sacrilegie ment, they had to leave Ionia for their safty to be garrantued.

Move foward around 150 years, they came out to greet alexander's army speaking greek, holding olive branches and submited their city to him. What he did next, was a crime; he wiped out everyone one of them (kids and all) and the city was completety destroyed (327BC). A fate worse than persopolis and to greeks not persians.

PBS has a narrative of this event here

There is nothing romantic about this revenge or any other, nor is this episode glorified hellenic nationalism. It tells you he was ruthless and unforgiving. But their was something needing forgiving in the first place.  Importantly it also is a good example of the revenge factor in his war within the greater context of the aggresion and insults perpertrated by xerxes.

So it isnt romantic to think that revenge is a part of the motive in persopolis, nor is it safe to assume that alexander didnt care for what happened earlier to greece.

And lets not forget that Cyrus trained his own men for battle against empires of Babylon, Media, Lydia etc. Whilst Alexander inherited a fully organized well trained army from his father.

Seconed, Athens today is now a thriving capital of Europe. Persepolis is nothing but old ruins.

first of all, i just want to say one thing: ALEXANDER WAS NOT GREEK! HE WAS MACEDONIAN! the greeks thought of the macedonians as barbarians just like they thought any other non greek ethnicity was barbaric.

alexander, in my opinion, was no different than genghi khan.  infact, they were the exact same, both brutal, both heartless, and both great generals.  alexander was no doubt the greatest general of his time. 

and another fact is that the greeks were the first to invent organized armies, they were the first to use strategies (instead of just hurling thousands of men at each other, like the Persians did).  they were the first to not think about numbers but more in terms of weaknesses of the enemy.  Persia, as well as all the other countries and empire for a long time did not have this, they didnt even train most of their troops (they just got peasants and gave them swords and put them in the army in times of war) and that is why alexander won those battles. an organized force will beat an larger but disorganized force everytime!

 

but in the end, cyrus did more for the world then alexander did, so i have to go with cyrus.

Im not talking about Isfahan, Shiraz, Tabriz. Im talking about Persepolis today comparing to the revenge for Athens. Athens is a well known capital, it was the Western world's leading cultural, commercial and intellectual center, and indeed it is in the ideas and practices of ancient Athens that what we now call "Western civilization" has its origins.