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Notch
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Topic: Sherman: Madman or Genius? Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 09:41 |
I have always been inspired by William Tecumseh Sherman ever since I joined the military and started reading about him.
I do however know that many think he is a horrible monster.
What is your opinion of him and why?
My opinion is that he was a complete military man and general. He obviously was obsessed with order and structure and in the military that is a necessity.
He expected much from his troops but he was also very caring and was always right among them. He was an enlisted man's general.
His "total war" policy is something that has long since been lost in the military. It's not so much the fault of the military as it is on the political climate. Sherman did not want war. He did not want to have to go into combat against people who were his friends (P.G.T Beauregard and Braxton Bragg were to associates he was close to and had to engage in battle) but he also believed in the Union and that the only way to bring conflict to a quick end and actually save lives was to make it as horrific as possible and bring it to any and all who would support the enemy.
In short, make it so cruel that the enemy would capitulate just to end the cruelty of war.
He made many mistakes when it came to judging number of enemy troops, but he was a sharp man who was able to come up with multiple battle plans for a scenario at which time would get presented to U.S. Grant who was able to pick the best one of the bunch to be used. The team of Grant and Sherman was like a well oiled machine.
I also believe and admire his hatred of the press, which he considered "scoundrels and humbugs" and in essence, traitors. They were a major hindrance and more often than not caused many a combat plan to go awry by their leaks. He even went as far as to have one reporter, Thomas W. Knox, court-martialed for messing up the early parts of the Vicksburg campaign. Again, reporting is one thing, interference is another and something that should be looked at today.
One thing that many people do not know is that Sherman was NOT against slavery, in fact he was for it. He felt that freeing the slaves would create anarchy, something he could not stand. He stated this and stated as well his reason for fighting was not to free any slaves, but to maintain the Union, a stance that President Lincoln initially insisted was the root cause of the war.
And one last reason (there are many others) is for his dedication to "hold his own" and support his family by his own means without support. He had a tough time with this but in the end managed to break free from the holds of his foster father, Thomas Ewing.
I personally feel we could use more generals today like "Cump" Sherman.
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"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over." -- William Tecumseh Sherman
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 11:57 |
I can't quarrel with your assessment of Sherman.
He was not a perfect person, but he was as close to a perfect soldier as we ever produced.
Certainly in his understanding, not only of strategic maneuver and tactical responsibility, but of the real nature of war in the industrial age, he was perhaps a better general than Moltke, 1866-1871. The Germans had already developed the "military technocrat" who almost never led an army in battle, or often never conducted a campaign outside of field reports.
Edited by pikeshot1600 - 02-Jan-2007 at 12:01
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 13:57 |
I agree that Sherman was a good general and soldier, but having been born in Atlanta, the man is a devil! He burned the jewel of the South: he burned Atlanta. For that act I cannot forgive him, but I respect his military prowess none the less.
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pikeshot1600
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Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 15:29 |
Originally posted by Adalwolf
I agree that Sherman was a good general and soldier, but having been born in Atlanta, the man is a devil! He burned the jewel of the South: he burned Atlanta. For that act I cannot forgive him, but I respect his military prowess none the less.
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It was not done in malevolence. "Uncle Billy" liked the South, and southerners, but he knew that ending the war, and ending Americans killing each other, required hard decisions and hard actions.
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Notch
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Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 15:57 |
Originally posted by pikeshot1600
Originally posted by Adalwolf
I agree that Sherman was a good general and soldier, but having been born in Atlanta, the man is a devil! He burned the jewel of the South: he burned Atlanta. For that act I cannot forgive him, but I respect his military prowess none the less.
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It was not done in malevolence. "Uncle Billy" liked the South, and southerners, but he knew that ending the war, and ending Americans killing each other, required hard decisions and hard actions. |
Exactly. At the time that Fort Sumter was attacked he was an instructor In Louisiana and was completely ripped apart that he had to leave. For the first time in a VERY long time he was happy and seemed in control of his destiny. He spent a lot of time in the south prior to the war and like pikeshot1600 said, he had a lot of very close friends from the south as well as fellow soldiers whom he knew from the military and West Point who he was NOT looking forward to engaging in combat. On the same hand his need for order dictated his actions and like I said, he truly believed total war, regardless of the enemy, was the only way to wage war. He did this so that it would end quickly. He did however hold no quarter to guerrilla tactics and those who harbored them. They would perform hit-and-run attacks and then hide into the civilian population. The civilian population ended up paying for these acts. John Hunt Morgan, Nathan Bedford Forrest, and John Singleton Mosby are
prime examples of Confederate's who employed these tactics. His keen understanding of total war is what dictated his actions. Had a southern general had that same insight (and I am sure some did without the opportunity to put it into action) they would have done the same thing to the north. So hatred for a soldier doing his duty, doing his utmost to end a bloody conflict as quickly as possible, and for taking care of his soldiers needs first is not really very logical, IMHO.
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"War is cruelty. There's no use trying to reform it, the crueler it is the sooner it will be over." -- William Tecumseh Sherman
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Timotheus
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Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 22:00 |
Sherman was one of the few to realize that when you fight a determined enemy, breaking their spirit is more important than destroying their army. Victor Davis Hanson's triple biography of Sherman, Patton, and Epaminondas is one of the best assessments of the man I have read.
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Opium is the religion of the masses.
From each according to his need, to each according to his ability.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 14:31 |
Originally posted by Adalwolf
I agree that Sherman was a good general and soldier, but having been born in Atlanta, the man is a devil! He burned the jewel of the South: he burned Atlanta. For that act I cannot forgive him, but I respect his military prowess none the less. |
And yet if it happened somewhere else you would have no problem with it Im sure.
I know the more cruel one is in conventional war the quicker it ends, thats why I universally support people like Sherman, and his spiritual sucessor Curtis Lemay. The more you destroy a society, the more you can rebuild them in your image and that increases the changes of long term peace. No more civil wars here, no more wars with Germany and Japan elsewhere. The effective strategy bears itself out.
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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Nick1986
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Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 19:47 |
Sherman had a mindset years ahead of his time and was the father of modern warfare. However, his tactics gave the troops (including many former Jayhawkers) free rein to commit atrocities. They went around hanging civilians suspected of aiding the enemy, raping Southern girls, looting houses, and burning churches, despite Sherman's efforts to restore order A General History of the Civil War
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tjadams
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Posted: 22-Nov-2011 at 20:54 |
He was a blade unleashed in the hard hand of war that weakened
the Confederacy's ability to continue the war. That said, it is easy to be rack up victories when you're team is ahead.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 04-Dec-2011 at 19:07 |
I think Sherman had the best intentions in mind, namely ending the war swiftly, but those under his command exploited the destruction as an excuse for pillage.
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tjadams
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Posted: 04-Dec-2011 at 22:57 |
I can abide by that description Nick.
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Nick1986
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Posted: 19-May-2012 at 20:08 |
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Cryptic
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Posted: 19-May-2012 at 20:30 |
Sherman was not a military genius in the tactical sense such as Lee, Stuart, Rommel etc were.
Sherman, however, was a military genius in understanding the totality of war (military, economic and political aspects).
Nothing demonstrates this more than the quote posted by Centrix Vigilis. Before the war even started, Sherman already knew that:
-the war would be terrible,
-that the union would win
-and that they would win because of industrialization.
None of the Confederate generals, despite the noticably superior tactical abilities of many CSA generals, understood war in the strategic sense like Sherman did. Sherman was so far ahead of them.
Edited by Cryptic - 19-May-2012 at 20:33
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Scamp
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Posted: 20-May-2012 at 05:55 |
Sherman realized that the Union had already lost 300,000 soldiers dead.
They needed to stop fighting the Confederate army and start waging war
upon civilians to break the Souths will to keep fighting this war.
So
he resorted to using Terrorism tactics. It worked.
Now days our
military is fighting a war against terrorism. But it was OK back then
for us to do this.
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Cryptic
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Posted: 20-May-2012 at 08:50 |
Originally posted by Scamp
Sherman realized that the Union had already lost 300,000 soldiers dead. They needed to stop fighting the Confederate army and start waging war upon civilians to break the Souths will to keep fighting this war.
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True, except that Sherman realized the union needed to reduce the ability of the Confederate to exist and grind down the Confederate army. If the ability to resist could be reduced, then grinding down the army would be that much easier.
Originally posted by Scamp
So he resorted to using Terrorism tactics. It worked. |
Shermans tactics were no more terroristic than the allied strategic bombing campaign against Germany and Japan.
The fact that Sherman was working at 30 feet and not 30,000 feet made Sherman's actions far more humane than allied actions in WWII as Sherman was able to accomplish his goal (destruction of enemy infrastructure) while avoiding civilian casualties.
Edited by Cryptic - 20-May-2012 at 08:54
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Nick1986
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Posted: 20-May-2012 at 19:40 |
Originally posted by Scamp
Sherman realized that the Union had already lost 300,000 soldiers dead.
They needed to stop fighting the Confederate army and start waging war
upon civilians to break the Souths will to keep fighting this war.
So
he resorted to using Terrorism tactics. It worked.
Now days our
military is fighting a war against terrorism. But it was OK back then
for us to do this.
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Scamp, do you know of any relevant websites? I've heard Sherman's men committed much rape, looting and murder but have been unable to find written or photographic evidence to back it up
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Centrix Vigilis
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Posted: 20-May-2012 at 20:31 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Originally posted by Scamp
Sherman realized that the Union had already lost 300,000 soldiers dead.
They needed to stop fighting the Confederate army and start waging war
upon civilians to break the Souths will to keep fighting this war.
So
he resorted to using Terrorism tactics. It worked.
Now days our
military is fighting a war against terrorism. But it was OK back then
for us to do this.
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Scamp, do you know of any relevant websites? I've heard Sherman's men committed much rape, looting and murder but have been unable to find written or photographic evidence to back it up
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Sherman will always be castigated by the secessionists and their mouthpieces the revisionist. This latest effort in defense of the 'Lost Cause' phenom ( I've been reluctant to use the term to date to avoid increasing the glamorization and adulation it's practitioners revel in) is nothing new ...it is as the attached citation will indicate is now ingrained history and literally accepted as gospel by it's adherents. As noted within the actual truth is as quote: "The victim of the Lost Cause legend has been history," Alan Nolan has written, "for which the legend has been substituted in the national memory." Funny isn't it...... that where our resident revisionist might allege terrorist tactics by Sherman's men he fails utterly and predictably and probably deliberately to mention NB Forrest's still controversially alleged atrocities and treatment of black Union soldiers. Particularly at Fort Pillow. One would have.. should have.. thought that an objective comparison and contrast amongst claims would have been initiated by a historian, of any level, no matter the initial disfavor it might have shown in support of the theorem.....but this wasn't done. The examples below discern the point....some contradict the assertions some confirm. But this wasn't done. Instead we have....distortion...obsfucation...deliberate and intended and insufficient and objective presentation. Not an analysis within the precepts of the method.....This as noted previously is their technique...iow.the heart and soul of the ''Lost Causer's.''
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence"
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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'
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Scamp
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Posted: 20-May-2012 at 22:34 |
Originally posted by Nick1986
Scamp, do you know of any relevant websites? I've heard Sherman's men committed much rape, looting and murder but have been unable to find written or photographic evidence to back it up
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In the Pulitzer Prize winning book "Battle Cry Of Freedom: Civil War Era" (p. 619), James McPherson wrote that some 50,000 Southern civilians died as a result of the Union Invasion of the South. Others have made estimates that are much higher.
"Thousands of letters
and diaries that survived the war attest to the rape of both black
and white women by Sherman's men." "This war on citizens was not simply restrained to be applied against
men and women but also children. Gen. Sherman in a June 21, 1864,
letter to Lincoln's Secretary of War, Edwin Stanton wrote, "There
is a class of people men, women and children, who must be killed
or banished before you can hope for peace and order." Stanton
replied, "Your letter of the 21st of June has just reached
me and meets my approval." DOPL: Atrocities - Quotes from Gen. Sherman & SheridanSherman wrote a letter to his wife noting that he was taught at West Point that he would be hanged for War Crimes such as his. "Civilian homes were looted, graves desecrated, women, both white and black, raped and murdered..." War Crimes of William T. Sherman
Edited by Scamp - 20-May-2012 at 22:41
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Scamp
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Posted: 20-May-2012 at 23:24 |
July 7 1864.
At least 400 women and female children working at a cotton mill in
Roswell GA are ordered kidnapped by Gen Sherman and shipped North. They are charged with treason. The
vast majority are never heard from again. "During the week while the women were held in Marietta, several Union
soldiers allegedly committed acts of sexual assault against their
captives." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_Mill
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Nick1986
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Posted: 10-Jun-2012 at 08:05 |
Raggedasssecond, what are your thoughts on Uncle Billy? Was he really the monster southerners portray him as, or were his actions motivated by desire to bring a swift end to the war?
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