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Jalaleddin Rumi - Persian Seljuk Poet

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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jalaleddin Rumi - Persian Seljuk Poet
    Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 09:08
I don't want to labeled as a nationalist, but I have to say it: Rumi and all his works belong to Turkish culture.
Originally posted by Bulldog

He was devoutly religous and a humanist.

How's that possible?

    
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 09:20
Islam is a humanist religion.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 09:27
anyway i opend a thread about tariqa's in here, dervishes arent they a tarikat too?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 09:36
Mortaza, what did I say? If you want to make ethnic comments you can find the specific thread that discusses his ethnicity.

This is the last warning. Any more on his ethnicity from anyone and there will be an official warning. I promise.

By material fact Molana's (there is no vav) work is Persian literature - it is literature written in Persian - Persian literature. Now you will tell me that black is white? Is it?
    

Edited by Zagros - 29-Dec-2006 at 09:36
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 09:45
Originally posted by Feanor

I don't want to labeled as a nationalist, but I have to say it: Rumi and all his works belong to Turkish culture.
Originally posted by Bulldog

He was devoutly religous and a humanist.

How's that possible?



Part of Seljuq culture, yes, but not Turkish. Just like Shah Abass's Turkish poems can be considered Safavid/Iranian/Azari/Turkish but not Persian.
    
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 09:56
This is the last warning. Any more on his ethnicity from anyone and there will be an official warning. I promise.

You said this, than just after this you talked about ethnicty problem.
 
By material fact Molana's (there is no vav) work is Persian literature - it is literature written in Persian - Persian literature. Now you will tell me that black is white? Is it?
when you banned this topic, how can I object you.LOL
 
I think we can easly see who interest with mevlana. Using google would help us much.
 
 
1.630.000 result.
 
 
69.000 result.
 
Also, I should add, not all of mevlana work is persian, He wroten, persian, Turkish and even greek langauges.
 
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  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 17:20
Originally posted by Bulldog

Islam is a humanist religion.

According to Islam, all human beings are slaves of the God.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 18:24
Originally posted by Mortaza

This is the last warning. Any more on his ethnicity from anyone and there will be an official warning. I promise.

You said this, than just after this you talkedabout ethnicty problem.

By material fact Molana's (there is no vav) work is Persian literature - it is literature written in Persian - Persian literature. Now you will tell me that black is white? Is it?

when you banned this topic, how can I object you.

I think we can easly see who interest with mevlana. Using google would help usmuch.




1.630.000 result.




69.000 result.


Also, I should add, not all of mevlana work is persian, He wroten, persian, Turkish and even greek langauges.



No genius, his literature isn't his ethnicity. And I was referring to how it should be spellt, if you could read how it is wrtten, you would understand.

Do you care to provide some evidence that Iranians didn't like him until recently because he was Sunni? That is the first time I have heard this, and at the time of Molana, Iran was majority Sunni ...
    
    

Edited by Zagros - 29-Dec-2006 at 18:38
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2006 at 20:08
Mortaza does have a strong point.

Anyway ethnicity is perceptive, he was what ever he says he was, as he didn't actually say what he was being a humanist to him it didn't matter we'll never really know. If we ask his descendants today he and they are Turks but that is their view, we wrote alot in Persian so to some Persian he is Persian, he was in the capitol of Seljuks so to them he was probobly a Seljuk.

What-ever anybody says the other side will take as a provocation so its best just to state what we know, Mevlana Seljuk Poet.    
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 00:55
It's a pitty, this is a nice thread and again ruined by Ultranationalists.Unhappy so people enough with this stuff and please back to topic.

I like his poems very much specially this one.

Our death is our wedding with eternity.
What is the secret? "God is One."
The sunlight splits when entering the windows of the house.
This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes;
It is not in the juice made from the grapes.
For he who is living in the Light of God,
The death of the carnal soul is a blessing.
Regarding him, say neither bad nor good,
For he is gone beyond the good and the bad.
Fix your eyes on God and do not talk about what is invisible,
So that he may place another look in your eyes.
It is in the vision of the physical eyes
That no invisible or secret thing exists.
But when the eye is turned toward the Light of God
What thing could remain hidden under such a Light?
Although all lights emanate from the Divine Light
Don't call all these lights "the Light of God";
It is the eternal light which is the Light of God,
The ephemeral light is an attribute of the body and the flesh.
...Oh God who gives the grace of vision!
The bird of vision is flying towards You with the wings of desire.

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  Quote Kapikulu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 02:25

Mevlana's best piece IMHO;

"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."
 
And his mausoleum in Konya is a popular touristic attraction, while Mevlana, among another poet, Yunus Emre is extremely popular among Turks and has a permanent place in the Turkish culture.

Originally posted by Maziar

It's a pitty, this is a nice thread and again ruined by Ultranationalists.Unhappy

Do you realize this post is uncordial and provoking rather than peaceful?
 
Originally posted by Feanor

According to Islam, all human beings are slaves of the God.
 
The word slave as we use in our ordinary life and the word kul differ from each other. Just because people are kul for God doesn't mean Islam cannot be a humanistic religion...One doesn't need to be atheist or agnostic to be humanist...


Edited by Kapikulu - 30-Dec-2006 at 02:34
We gave up your happiness
Your hope would be enough;
we couldn't find neither;
we made up sorrows for ourselves;
we couldn't be consoled;

A Strange Orhan Veli
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 19:38
Originally posted by Bulldog

Islam is a humanist religion.
 
Bulldog
 
You are right to state that humanism is not alien to islam but there is a huge difference between islamic humanism(A form of religious humansim) and western humanism(Darwinian+Materialism).
 
Islamic humanism=God is ultimate legislator
Western humanism=Man is ultimate legislator
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  Quote Huncuk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 04:20
Originally posted by Zagros

Mevlana Jelaleddin Rumi is celarly not persian,he was a Turk

But in Nishabur,there also was persians,so he also could be persian.


Make up your mind.

Nei-Shapur was a city founded by Persians, so it is hardly surprising there were also Persians there, lol.

NO more on his ethnicity! I mean it.
Qaraqurum made by Turks,but in Ghengisid time there were only a few Turks.
 
Understood?
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 15:35
Do you care to provide some evidence that Iranians didn't like him until recently because he was Sunni? That is the first time I have heard this, and at the time of Molana, Iran was majority Sunni ...
 
Easy, you dont know anything about it.
 
Infact you dont know, his most famous words are Infact not wroten by him, but a persian.
 
Again, If you seach persian and turkish interest about mevlana, you can see who is interested with him.
 
"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."
 
These are not wroten by mevlana.
 
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  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 18:23

So Murtaza what's the point? You wanna say he was Turkic? maybe, who knows? but can you really enjoy his original works? Even his Turkic poets were in old style with lots of persian and Arabic words.

Shams e Tabrizi and Attar were persians and  and they had the biggest effects in Mevlana, at that time Iran was a sunni country, please do not forget that Shie Islam is  Introduced to Persians by Anatolian Turks.
 
maybe he knew that there would be this kind of problems that he mentioned that  an Asik person does ot belong to any nations or religions.
 
 
 
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 20:01
In all encyclopedies and by all scholars he is considered as Iranian. This is the only fact i will pay attention, so i will ignore all what the other non scholar claim here.
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 07:24


Mevlana's best piece IMHO;

"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."

You know nothing about Molana Rumi, if you don't read his original poems in Persian language.
 
Baza, baza, har anke hasti, baza
Gar kafar o gabr o bot parasti, baza
In dar gah ma dar gah numidi nist
Sad bar agar tobe shekasti, baza
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  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 09:16
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


Mevlana's best piece IMHO;

"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."

You know nothing about Molana Rumi, if you don't read his original poems in Persian language.
 
Baza, baza, har anke hasti, baza
Gar kafar o gabr o bot parasti, baza
In dar gah ma dar gah numidi nist
Sad bar agar tobe shekasti, baza
finally i've found it in Persian, thanks Cyrus biroder!!


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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 10:33
So Murtaza what's the point? You wanna say he was Turkic? maybe, who knows?
I dont know his ethnicity(like all), The place he borned is known, not his ethnicity.
 
Secondly, mevlana did not called as persian, but rumi.(Anatolian, rum), so I think he is related with anatolian(turkish) culture, not persian culture..
 
I am not talking about his ethnicity.
 
but can you really enjoy his original works? Even his Turkic poets were in old style with lots of persian and Arabic words.
 
Yes, so when did persian will claim, Kanuni, Fatih or Yavuz? They used persian much, and their turkish is old style with lots of persian and arabic words.
 
maybe he knew that there would be this kind of problems that he mentioned that  an Asik person does ot belong to any nations or religions.
 
As, I said before, he is called as rumi not persi. I think this is enough for his connection. It is absolutely anatolian, nor persian.
 
You know nothing about Molana Rumi, if you don't read his original poems in Persian language.
 
Sorry, I will not learn persian just for reading mevlana.(I can read It turkish)
 
But,
 
Malm-i lniz Hazret-i Mevlnya izafe edilen bir sz vardır: Ne olursan ol gel! Bu sz hakikatinde Eb Sad Ebl-Hayr isimli bir zatın szdr.
 
 

EB SA'İD-İ EBU'L-HAYR

 

Yine gel

Yine gel

Ne olursan ol,

            Yine gel.

İster kfir ol

ister ateşperest.

            İstersen ol

                        putperest.

Değil dergahımız umutsuzluk dergahı.

Bozsan da yz kere tvbeni

Yine gel.

http://www.doguedebiyati.com/siir/klasik%20fars%20siiri1.htm (a web page about persian literature.)
 
Gel, gel, ne olursan ol yine gel, mitsizlik kapısı değildir bizim derghımız, bin kerre tevbeni bozmuş da olsan yine gel rbaisinin Mevln Celaleddin Rmye ait olduğunu iddia etmek galt-ı meşhur kavramının iini btn hacmiyle dolduran bir rnektir. Edebiyat tarihileri, orijinal Frisi syleyişi, Bz bz kelimeleriyle başlayan bu rbainin Mevlnya değil, ondan iki asır nce yaşamış mutasavvıf şair Ebu Said ebul-Hayra ait olduğunu sylyorlar ve bu iddia en azından elli seneden beri ortada durduğu halde hemen herkes (başta Kltr Bakanlığının, Konya Valiliğinin resmi internet siteleri olmak zere) şiiri Mevlnya atfediyor.

http://www.aksiyon.com.tr/detay.php?id=19321

 
All of this pages says that, these words dont belong mevlana but Ebu Said ebul-Hayr. So who dont know any thing about mevlana?
 
So you are reading a persian poet, but It does not belong Mevlana.(So as I said before, I dont need to learn persian for mevlana.)
 
 

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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 07:53
All of this pages says that, these words dont belong mevlana but Ebu Said ebul-Hayr. So who dont know any thing about mevlana?
 
So you are reading a persian poet, but It does not belong Mevlana.(So as I said before, I dont need to learn persian for mevlana.)
 
lol LOL You are right!
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