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The modern Greek military

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The modern Greek military
    Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 17:21
Thanks for the translation Xristar
 
Greece to decide on wheeled IFV
 
 
Artical translated


According to the "Strategy", is expected to meet tomorrow to ASS (Supreme

Military Council) on the approval of operational and technical requirements for the
program of wheeled TOMA the HS. The main specifications concerning the

movements 8x8, transportation capacity of at least 6 men, the arming level 4

perimeter, a fire apparatus 30mm and wife of 7.62 mm and 500km radius of

action. The general elastic / remove strict conditions, such as capacity, the ability

to airlift C-130, the amphibious capacity and the level antinarkikis protection.

Overall gained around 84 2011-2015 budget 430.6 million Euro will equip units of ASDEN and V SS. Sensitivity to look for include Austrian R andur II, the Finnish AM V, on the German-Dutch Boxer, the VBCI French and Russian BTR-90
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 09:27
Finish AMV would be my pick otherwise the boxer but thats a big one! or save the money and buy better tracked ones!
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 10:31
It seems we'll be buying used SP artillery soon. The US have allowed us to purchase used german M109A3G3 (which they didn't a couple of years ago), and say they also offer their own used 109A5 is any quantity Greece asks. (Greece is in need of roughly 190-200 selfpropelled guns, of which a number of 30-40 should be PzH2000 and the rest used M109).
Also, the proceedure of picking a new fighter seems to have started (maybe that relates with the urgent need of 2-seated fighters?). The Grippen and the Rafale were shown the the staff of the air force.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2008 at 17:00
Greece purchases 13 Leopard 2A4 from Germany for 250.000 euro a piece.

Delivery of all leos will be made by 2009
 
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  Quote Cataln Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2008 at 16:17
What tanks are the Leopard 2HELs and Leopard 2A4s replacing?  An article I have published in Military Technology gives an accurate count of Greek MBTs up to mid-2006, but is antiquated from there on out (for example, it doesn't include 170 Leopard 2HELs to be manufactured).  Does the Greek Army plan to continue to keep its M48A5 MOLFs in active service?
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2008 at 00:19
Greece wants to replace all american tanks in service with german ones.
Originally (until a few years ago) Greece had 1750 tanks in service, but after continuous reorganizations (mostly after the 2001-2002 grand reorganization) the roof is set to about 1250 tanks. Currently Greece has some 1500 tanks in service.
To this direction, Greece bought not only 350 Leopard 2, but also another 150 Leopard 1, in order to homogenize the army to german tanks.
The tanks retiring from service are M-48A5 (by now almost all of them must have been retired) and M-60A1/M-60A3TTS. Some of the M-60A3 remain in service , but are to be retired too.
Also, the Leopard 1 before the A5 version are being retired, but the army is considering turning some of them to specialized and engineer vehicles.
The M-48A5MOLF are considered better than the M-60A3TTS and will remain in service with the island guards. Additionally, the MOLFs were upgraded in Germany, and many of their equipment is identical to that of the Leopard-1A5 in service.
So, currently, without including any further future plans, the plan is that by 2010, when the deliveries will have finished, Greece to have 170 Leo2HEL, 196 Leo2A4, 500 Leo1A5, 390 M-48A5MOLF in service. The Leo2 will be used by the four armoured brigades (82 tanks each), the Leo1A5 by the 7 mechanized infantry and 7 infantry brigades (41 tanks each), and the M-48 by the island guards (82 M48 are in service in Cyprus though, half with the greek segment, half with the greek-cypriot army, but all belong to Greece still).
After 2010, additional Leo2A4 are to be bought, and the current Leo2A4 are to be upgraded to HEL level. The M48 are supposed to be retired by mid 2010s.

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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 11:31
It seems the new 2007 reorganization has been decided, for the greek army.
There will be many changes, but the most important, to a third party viewer are:
1)There won't be any armoured and mechanized brigades any more. There will be 'crack brigades' and will have the same structure, with 2 tank battalions and 2 mech infantry battalions, and 1 artillery battalion (+other minor units)
Thus, some units (such as one armoured brigade) will be disbanded, and their equipment distributed to the new brigades.
2)Division commands are disbanded. Only brigades will exist (with the exception of the 2nd infantry division, which will be in charge of international missions)
3)New, 'light self-propelled infantry brigades' will be created at the boarders with Albania and Fyrom. They will replace the older conventional heavy formations. They will be equiped with wheeled vehicles, and will resemble the reconnaissance units which existed already (and were quite successful, thus the tranformation).
Theoretically the roof will be increased to about 103,000 men during peacetime (out of 93,000 today), but that's only a theory...
Biggest flaw, IMO, is that even the last hint of strategic reserve got disbanded. Now, all the real army is concentrated on the boarder. And it's not THAT big, to ensure its ability to commence any sort of counterattack...
Add to this the reduced army service (only 12 months), and the poor training, and it seems that the Greek army steadily loses its ability to wage a prolonged war.
(And not to forget that the other side has practically endless reserves, both in the form of units and in the form of manpower...)Confused

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2008 at 14:30
Originally posted by xristar

(And not to forget that the other side has practically endless reserves, both in the form of units and in the form of manpower...)Confused
 
"Other side", which side do you mean, you're scaring us! Tongue
 
Seriously now, there's no posibility of a "real" war with Turkey. We cooperate economically in many fields and both have too much to lose in such a case. It's just something that is used as an excuse by the military and is costing both countries gazilions of money. Money that we both lack and we could spend much more wiselly.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2008 at 16:20
In Greece I don't think the military has any influence on the political decisions, to need any excuses.
I don't believe in economic cooperation. I actually believe more on the grecoturkish friendship than economic cooperation. Because it is basically the economic reasons that cause friction. The ship routes of the agean, the national waters and their submarine resources are worth much more than the economical cooperation. Both Greece and Turkey are depended of Oil, without producing any (or at least significant amounts). since it is almost certain that the aegean HAS oil, friction is unavoidable...

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 08:16
Xristar thank you for your updates, i don't get that type of information easily.

So are they spreading out their armour or just reorganising it? I cant see it being needed anywhere but in thraki.

...and can I interept these 'light self-propelled infantry brigades" as lightly armored, faster wheeled units to secure the North. I remeber statements coming out of defence saying that the threats to greece is more in the north than in the east
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 08:35
Originally posted by xristar

In Greece I don't think the military has any influence on the political decisions, to need any excuses.
I don't believe in economic cooperation. I actually believe more on the grecoturkish friendship than economic cooperation. Because it is basically the economic reasons that cause friction. The ship routes of the agean, the national waters and their submarine resources are worth much more than the economical cooperation. Both Greece and Turkey are depended of Oil, without producing any (or at least significant amounts). since it is almost certain that the aegean HAS oil, friction is unavoidable...
I know the Greek militray doesnt have that much influence, they wanted f-15 and got F-16's...so the holder of the purse strings has ultimate say.

Economically, I think Greek politicians rather spend the money elsewhere so there is a economic dimension. Though friendship is more likely with the AKP lead Turkish government, I am still very very cautious of the powerful Turkish military. These clowns have their own domestic agenda (inc keeping control of their purse strings) and cannot differentiate their interests from national interest (in their minds - same thing). This can be dangerous for civilians on both sides of the Aegean. Until that element is gone and certain policies and 'red lines' they sponsor are gone with them, Greece has to stay alert and spend enough to keep reasonable power parity. I'm sure many Turkish politicians want to spend their budgets differently to.


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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2008 at 20:00
and can I interept these 'light self-propelled infantry brigades" as lightly armored, faster wheeled units to secure the North. I remeber statements coming out of defence saying that the threats to greece is more in the north than in the east

Well, I don't know if that's true.
But still, think of the quality of the threats. What kind of threat comes from the north, and what of the east?
From the north, I'm pretty sure no state will attack Greece with its conventional army (None of them has a real army to be able to do that, while Greece does). These light brigades will be able to look over large areas, and stop any infiltration of guerillas from the north.

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  Quote Batu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2008 at 20:44
Greece buys tanks and Turkey buys attack helicopters.See,its balanced.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2008 at 05:25
Originally posted by xristar

and can I interept these 'light self-propelled infantry brigades" as lightly armored, faster wheeled units to secure the North. I remeber statements coming out of defence saying that the threats to greece is more in the north than in the east

Well, I don't know if that's true.
But still, think of the quality of the threats. What kind of threat comes from the north, and what of the east?
From the north, I'm pretty sure no state will attack Greece with its conventional army (None of them has a real army to be able to do that, while Greece does). These light brigades will be able to look over large areas, and stop any infiltration of guerillas from the north.
oh I agree on the size difference of the threats. I interpreted those remarks to mean, possible insurgents, traffickers and the like could more active going forward.


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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 09:03
What is the level of political corruption? Armament deals was/is a notorious way "gia tous imeterous" to make money at the expense of the country and its defensive capability. 
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  Quote konstantinius Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 09:06
Coming back, drunk, from the bar is not the right time to post on this. I'll get a warning again. I'll came back another time.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 09:40
hehe ok. so you soon sober
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2008 at 17:05
The greek naval works of Skaramangas have made an interesting proposal: instead of upgrading older submarines, they offer to build 2 additioanl 214 new submarines. The reason is that the upgade programme's duration became too long after some changes decided, and still the one upgraded sub has not been accepted yet.
However, some additional money must be given, and of course the known problems with the 214 subs must be solved.
Interesting...

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 03:10
i hope they sort out the 214's, Greece is owing (holding?) payment of at least 100mill. I would like to see 4 more of those things and keep 4 of the older ones for training/recon so the others are freed up. Subs are the best way to defend the Aegean so they should be the focus of the navy.
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  Quote kafkas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2008 at 18:59
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by xristar

In Greece I don't think the military has any influence on the political decisions, to need any excuses.
I don't believe in economic cooperation. I actually believe more on the grecoturkish friendship than economic cooperation. Because it is basically the economic reasons that cause friction. The ship routes of the agean, the national waters and their submarine resources are worth much more than the economical cooperation. Both Greece and Turkey are depended of Oil, without producing any (or at least significant amounts). since it is almost certain that the aegean HAS oil, friction is unavoidable...
I know the Greek militray doesnt have that much influence, they wanted f-15 and got F-16's...so the holder of the purse strings has ultimate say.

Economically, I think Greek politicians rather spend the money elsewhere so there is a economic dimension. Though friendship is more likely with the AKP lead Turkish government, I am still very very cautious of the powerful Turkish military. These clowns have their own domestic agenda (inc keeping control of their purse strings) and cannot differentiate their interests from national interest (in their minds - same thing). This can be dangerous for civilians on both sides of the Aegean. Until that element is gone and certain policies and 'red lines' they sponsor are gone with them, Greece has to stay alert and spend enough to keep reasonable power parity. I'm sure many Turkish politicians want to spend their budgets differently to.




First off, I don't think especially as a moderator you should refer to the Turkish military as clowns.

Second, according to NATO's 2007 figures, Turkish military spending is %2.7 of GDP whereas Greece's is 2.8% of GDP. Neither in my opinion is particularly high.


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