Invading Russia

The Russian Winter has defeated more armies than the Russians!

So far i know Swedes didnt take Moscow but Poles did. Today Russians have their independence day in the aniversary of kicking out Poles from Moscow.

As for land around Gulf of Finnland it wasnt really hard, Novogrod is a more impressive target. But anyway Poles took Smolensk which was even more impressive target than Novogrod. Not saying about Moscow which had polish garrison for about 2 years. I also forgot to add that polish forces captured and imprisoned new tsar Vasil Shuyski who lived in Poland till end of his days. After him polish crown prince Wladislaw IV was proclaimed new Tsar of Russia. He later sold Romanov's the title for a lot of monay. So i wouldnt even compare childish maneuvres of the swedish army in the north with the campaigns of Poles.

Swedes were trying to grab some land while Poles tried to get all Russia including the crown of Tsars. Altough it must be said that Poland-Lithuania didnt use great army in Russia, just few thousannds of the regular soldier. In fact there was more landhungry nobles, adventurers and cossacks than soldiers of the Commonwealth army.

Anyway, Wladislaw IV had nice collection of titles from lands which he really had and from such which he wanted to have:

Vladislaus Quartus Dei gratia rex Poloniae, magnus dux Lithuaniae, Russiae, Prussiae, Masoviae, Samogitiae, Livoniaeque, necnon Suecorum, Gothorum Vandalorumque haereditarius rex, electus magnus dux Moschoviae

Vladislaus IV by God's grace king of Poland, grand duke of  Lithuania, Ruthenia, Prussia, Masovia, Samogitia, Livonia, and also hereditary king of the Swedes, Goths and Vandals, elected tsar of Russia

edit:answering Mosquito.

I think you missed my point. Early 17th century Muscovy/Russia is quite another thing than the unified Euro-Asian empire under Peter or Alex.

"Childish manouvers", hein? To be frank, I find the very statement is childish in itself, and the notion that the Baltic lands "were not really hard" is equally bad. You surely realize how important access to the Baltic was for the Russians (one of the main reasons of the Great Northern War for example), and how desperate after peace they had to be to secede it all.

Russia was after Fjodor's death without a heir to the throne, in a state of anarchy and civil war with several different factions, with the Swedes and Poles trying to get a as to them friendly tsar as possible on the throne. The Swedish goals with the Russian affairs in the time was to grab land around the Baltic - in the strife to make it a Swedish lake - and Kola and to put a puppet tsar on the throne, denying the Poles that pleasure. I really don't see how this  goes against my point that the Russians were in deep trouble with everybody picking on them.

A short summary of the first campaign, 1608-1610. Sweden entered the wars in 1608 when the Poles supported the false Dmitri, and fought to get the elected Sjujski on the throne to prevent a too Poland-friendly Russia. It was agreed that the Swedes would receive Kexholm if Sjujski was put on the throne. The Swedes invaded, took Novgorod, whereupon the army marched directly to Moscow, defeated the besieging Polish forces and marched into the city themselves. The Poles now abandoned the false Dmitri and started supporting the mentioned Wladislav instead. After two months in Moscow, the Swedes and Sjusjki-supporting Russians started marching on Smolensk. However, at Klusina/Kluszyn the armies meet up with the Poles, where one of the most over-hyped battles in military history commences.

The 30,000 Russians refused to obey orders and ran away, while the mercenaries in the Swedish army looted the Swedish baggage and joined the Poles. The Swedish infantry wass tired of the war (this is not the armies after Gustav Adolf and later reformations...heh) and simply do nothing. The national cavalry is the only troops who obey, but their quite ferocious attack is immidiately pushed back by the Poles. The Swedes agree with the Poles not to support Sjujski, and marches away. Only 400 national Swedish and Finnish troops remain, the rest has switched sides. The Poles thereafter marched more or less unhindered into Moscow, and gained the upper hand in the war.

In the second phase (from the Swedish POV), 1610-1617, held different goals, namely to completely conquer Russia either by land grab or a puppet tsar, or at least take as much land as possible. Karl Filip, the brother of Gustav Adolf, is arranged to become the new tsar, and is about to leave for Russia, but this attempt is stopped by - of all things - his own mother who simply refuse to let him go, and being a strong women manages to thwart the whole government and the king himself. The Swedes then invaded yet again and took a number of forts and towns in the North-West, including Novgorod, and the last remnants of the supported of the False Dmitri are crushed. The Russians are now generally unhappy with Wladislav, who by late summer 1612 is basicly out of the game and the Poles pushed out of Moscow. The following year Michail Romanov is elected tsar and the Russians start focusing on the Swedes.

In 1614 a 19-year-old Gustav Adolf arrived and despite severly outnumbered and lacking supplies and just about everything else managed to get a favourable position in the peace after two years of war. The important Baltic coast as well as Karelia and other areas were captured, and Sweden recognized Romanov as the true tsar. Meanwhile the Poles had managed to get a very favourable truce.

To sum up, the Times of Trouble is a quite an apt name of the anarchial situation Russia was in in the early 17th century, allowing both Sweden and Poland to bully the divided Russians. My whole point is that this situation is very different from those that Karl XII, Napoleon and Hitler faced. Russia was in deep trouble in the 1600s, and probably the only thing that prevented a division of most of its lands between Poland and Sweden was the Polish claim on the Swedish throne and the general distrust and state of war between those two nations, that hindered them from a beneficial cooperation.

first: when i said "childish maneuvres" i meant that Sweden only tried to get some land while Poland tried to get evertything when saw enemy weakened.
Thank you for the second part of your post because i really didnt know that later Sweden was going to take everything and to make Karl Filip new Tsar. I would like to know more details, because so far i know your Karl Filip wasnt crowned for tsar of Russia.

As for the battle of Kluszyn/Klushino (or any other name for that battle) your post suggest that Russians didnt fight but run away. According to my sources it is not truth and Russians did fight. Polish army of about 7000 soldiers of whom 6800 were winged hussars crushed resistance of 30000 Russians and 5000 Swedish/German and scottish mercenaries who didnt want to fight (my sources says Russians wanted to fight but their allies not).

As for the falses Dymitri and his polish supporters it must be said that it was first stage of war. In fact it is hard to call it war because Poland wasnt officially engaged. It was rather private expedition of polish nobleman Jerzy Mniszech and his private army of land hungry polish nobles and cossacks. As you know Poland was always a bit anarchic and Jerzy Mniszech didnt ask anyone for opinion but just gathered private army and invaded Russia on his own risk and responsibility. You can name them in many ways but not a regular army. They placed on the Russian throne first false Dymitri who was killed by Russians. After that they gave them another false Dymitri (who was saved from assasins by miracle) and after Russians killed the second they recived the third one (also saved from assasins by miracle, supossed to be the same one).

After expedition of Mniszech was so succesfull (he even made his own daughter wife of Tsar Dymitri and everytime when Russians were killing him she was recognising the newone as her husband) king of Poland - your swedish relative- Sigismundus Vasa decided to join the party. But polish Seym (parliament) refused to attack Russia and didnt vote any new taxes for war so king could use only limited number of troops (those 7000 from battle of Klushin) and unpaid irregulars (like mercenaries of colonel Lisovski who were living from what they plundered in Russia). Russians agreed to proclaim prince Wladislaw, son of the king for their tsar - if only he will change religion from catholicism to orthodox. But your Swede on our throne, or as grand chancellor Jan Zamoyski was naming him - "our dumb monkey imported from Sweden" was fanatic catholic and broke the agreement with the russian boyars.

Because parliament didnt agreed for war taxes king wanst able to continue the war, polish garrison in Moscow didnt get any support and after long siege of the Cremlin castle had to surrender. Prince Wladislaw who was already tsar of russia kept the title till 1630 when sold it to Romanovs. The only profit that Poland got from the war was Smolensk, which was fortiefied by Russians so well that they were not able to retake it.

All those events from the begining of the 17th century proved well that Russia can be easilly conquered if is doesnt have strong leadership.