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Knight
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: some questions about greece
    Posted: 31-Dec-2004 at 23:09
As I've already posted but you are obviously blind or just a selective reader.  From my post dated :
Posted: 30 December 2004 at 8:39am |

Read ignorant little man:

nationalist 
"one devoted to his nation," 1715, from national in a now obsolete sense of "patriotic"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=nationalist&s earchmode=none

As I said what you concider an insult, is actually a virtue in my eyes. I will say it once again and maybe just maybe! you'll get it through your thick scull, I want answers based on TRUE FACTS not what your neo-Hellinic (meaning of the term already given) little mind conciders to be fact nor your intentionally mistranslated or partially presented texts just to suit your SICK nature.

. , .



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 05:20

People like you present whatever it suits them to serve their sneaky purposes.I am still impressed that you do not know the word neo.You are the one who bases his searches into vocabularies,why you follow the masses in this one? .You want arguments?Bring them with signature,i think i've explained you why, AND without any nationalistic comments on it to give SOME objectivity in your replies.Why can't you do that?It's so difficult to be a nationalist and objective at the same time, i know,but at least try!It's not so hard!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 06:08
Originally posted by Christscrusader

Look, i really dont feel like reading everything here, but what is your main source of strife? What is a Hellen and what isn't? What is a Neo hellen? What is the main argument here?

What is Hellen?Hellen is the man who speaks and of course knows the Hellenic language modern or ancient,who participates in the Hellenic educational system,who follows the Hellenic ethical principles like freedom of will,freedom of speach etc who fights for justice,education,human rights,democracy etc who fights for Hellenism when it is needed with all his heart.The Hellenic civilization is ecumenical and not national anymore and has nothing to do with religions nor nationalities any longer.You become a Hellen,you do not born one any longer.For example a child born in a foreign country,has Hellen parents but he knows shiet about Hellas.Is he a Hellen?No.He must first learn about the Hellenic civilization,adopt it,learn the language and history of Hellas,he must achieve initiation in the Hellenic Spirit.Then and only then he can call himself a Hellen.Hellen,is the man who is objective,and when he judges he judges without prejudice.Everybody have the right to become Hellens:a chinese,a black from Africa,even a Turk(here is more complicated though).The only thing they have to do is to embrace the Hellenic spirit  and follow what i've said above.But very few of the foreigners can actually achieve to be called Hellens,because it's not easy to be a Hellen,needs work.Hellenism is an ecumenical civilization but it's homeland is and will always be Hellas,the sacred land of the Hellens ,which every Hellen has the obligation to defend,when it is needed.The number one enemy of Hellenism is fascism and nationalism which of course leads to fascism.Here in Hellas we have the priviledge to call ourselves Hellens from birth because we actually learn about Hellenism since a very very very young age or if you want since birth.So is justified.  

Neo-Hellen?It's nothing more than a stupid use of the word neo or modern by xenophobic nationalists and fascistic movements or uneducated men and women to show their "superiority" over the others.In reality,and following logic the term Neo-Hellen or modern-Hellen idicates those Hellens who lived and continue to live since the foundation of the modern state of Hellas,in the 19 century.So Hellens like you,me,Yiannis,"Hellinas",are Neo or Modern Hellens.If we lived in Ancient Hellas we would be called Ancient Hellens.Although "Hellinas" has a long way to become a full Hellen.    

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 12:15

Christscrusader

>>Look, I really dont feel like reading everything here, but what is your main source of strife? What is a Hellen and what isn't? What is a Neo hellen? What is the main argument here?<<>>

 

This originally was a topic that contained questions about ancient Hellas as Im sure youve seen. But it seems that some people cant stand being corrected on something they obviously have NO KNOWLEDGE on. (See ancient Hellinic language and texts)

 So they turn a decent conversation, into alleged insults. I say alleged, because they are once again corrected that the term nationalist , isnt any kind of insult but in fact a virtue that in fact, many would be proud to and actually strive to obtain.

 

So in lack of any obvious arguments on the topic of Hellines in Italy, Thrace and Illyria. Turn once again this conversation around and now try to prove that anyone that speaks Hellinic or has knowledge of Hellinic customs must be recognized as Hellinic. But never did clear if the Hellines considered the population of all their colonies as Hellines. Nor did he give examples of conquered lands by Alexander being populated by "Hellines" of a foreign race or if they were ever considered Hellines. Conveniently forgot about PAS MH ELLHN BARBAROS

 

Spartakus

Even if I am to accept your version of what a Hellin is, please tell me where do you get off considering yourself a Hellin?

You obviously have NO KNOWLEDGE of the Hellinic language, you intentionally post FORGED TEXTS to suit your perverse argument and yet, demand to be recognized as a Hellin? You have none of the qualities demanded to be called a Hellin even in your version of the term.

Sorry my friend but it doesnt work that way.

 

>>.So Hellens like you,me,Yiannis,"Hellinas",are Neo or Modern Hellens.If we lived in Ancient Hellas we would be called Ancient Hellens.Although "Hellinas" has a long way to become a full Hellen. <<>>

 

Neo-Hellinas:

As I said, but you obviously have a reading disability also. Neo-Hellinas is a characterization used for all those that have helped the annihilation and extinction of every trace of mental and cultural heritage. What I mean is the elimination of every ideal and virtue embodied, protected with blood and offered to the world by the Hellinic race through history.

 

The very fact that you INTENTIONALLY post FORGED TEXTS to prove that anyone can be considered a Hellin is exactly what the term neo-Hellinas  stands for.

 

I cant honestly speak about Christscrusader even though from his previous arguments in this thread I doubt that he would be considered a Neo-Hellinas. Yiannis, even though made me sceptical at first, after seeing his great site, also cleared that neither he may be considered a Neo-Hellinas.

But you, as previously said are the lowest of the low, the scum of earth, an illiterate NOTHING that is a disgrace to anything Hellinic. I bet you also consider Zena as a part of Hellinic mythology!!!>>

 One thing is sure, if you lived in ancient Hellas little wanna-be Hellin, youd be thrown over Kaiadas in Sparta, ostracized in Athens and probably killed in Macedonia and Thessaly. Im sure Nemesis would pay you a visit for your blasphemy.>>

You continue to mention become a Hellin but never once gave an example of anyone of non-Hellinic blood that was or is considered a Hellin either in ancient or modern Hellas.

 

If anyone is or could be concidered a Hellin please enlight us oh great one, why would we find these reactions in Athens?

Athenians for a time, profoundly feared extending privileges of citizenship. To avert this disaster they passed the Periclean Citizenship Law (451/450 B.C.) reserving the right of legitmacy ONLY!!! to children born of two Athenian citizens.

We also know that, Pericles introduced a new citizenship law which prevented the son of an Athenian father and a non-Athenian mother becoming a full citizen.

So why do you insist that anyone was accepted? Is this topic of some personal interest to you, are you some kind of non-Hellin (see Albo, Slav, Russian) that dreams of becoming a Hellin?



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 17:56

First of all,as i've said before i did not nor even meant to say that Ancient Hellens accepted everyone.It was a close society and they lived in Ancient times so is justified why they did such a thing.As i've said the Ancient Hellens are not the problem here but your surpassed ideology.You have not even noticed what i wrote.You continue to see only the tree and miss the forest.If sb wants to become a Hellen,except that knowing the Hellenic language and customs must also follow the Hellenic ethical principles and fight for Hellas when it is needed or in a few words be an Hellen by heart not by mind only.Now for the new nationalistic bullshiet...non-Hellenic blood.....Tell me can you prove me that your "Hellenic blood" is actually Hellenic?Can you prove after 2000 years that you are a descedant of the ancient Hellens?Can you actually prove that an ansestor of yours wasn't f**ked or raped by a Roman soldier ,by a Slav,or by a Turk by an Arab or even by a European(sorry i cannot remeber other tribes who came in Hellas)and because of this your other ancestors who came afterwards where nothing more than bastards?Simply and logically,you can't.Except of course if you have a time machine! For the last time if you want an argument bring your sayings  here SIGNED!!I forged texts?If you cannot stand the truth in your tiny head it's not my fault.You continue to follow the masses in Neo-Hellens?I am not impressed any longer.You are a half-Hellen.And of course the nationalistic outburst continues....Little  man i am not the man who dreams here ,you are.Blasphemy?Please do not be so ridiculous!!!!Blasphemy are your "ideals",God make them ideals!Concernig the name you asked,I can bring you but are you willing to accept it?Because i do not want another person's name to become a target without his knolewdge. 

"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 17:59
....and i am not the one who has reading dissabilities,posting TINY LETTERS!
"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 19:05
I say maybe they africans or turks or chinese people are hellenic citizens, but not ethnic hellens. They are not ethnic greeks. It depends how you look at it. At a national point, or as a culture more, since the older greek culture wasn't made up of blacks or chinese people. But then again, these people can join in and adopt the culture, as many have.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 20:25

>> i did not nor even meant to say that Ancient Hellens accepted everyone<<>>

Let me remind you exactly what youve said:

Posted: 30 December 2004 at 9:12am

>>The Hellenic civilization is an ecumenical not a national civilization.It continues through the centuries.<<

Posted: a30 December 2004 at 3:53pm>>

>>ALL the barbaroi can become Hellens>>

Posted: 31 December 2004ate> at 2:31pm>>

>>If a foreign man who participates in the Hellenic educational system,knows and speaks modern or ancient Hellenic,knows Hellenic history,loves Hellas and stays in Hellas without having the bloody papers of the Hellenic citizenship is not considered a Hellin?>>


 

And finally

Posted: Today at 6:08am

>>What is Hellen?Hellen is the man who speaks and of course knows the Hellenic language modern or ancient,who participates in the Hellenic educational system,who follows the Hellenic ethical principles like freedom of will,freedom of speach etc who fights for justice,education,human rights,democracy etc who fights for Hellenism when it is needed with all his heart.>>

And my personal favourite from the same post:

>>You become a Hellen,you do not born one any longer.<<


As you and anyone else can plainly see, youve changed what youve been saying and what your wrongly translated signature implies.

But then in your last post youturn it around once again to say:

>>If sb wants to become a Hellen,except that knowing the Hellenic language and customs must also follow the Hellenic ethical principles and fight for Hellas when it is needed or in a few words be an Hellen by heart not by mind only.>>

 >>Now for the new nationalistic bullshiet...non-Hellenic blood.....Tell me can you prove me that your "Hellenic blood" is actually Hellenic?Can you prove after 2000 years that you are a descedant of the ancient Hellens?......... by a Slav,or by a Turk by an Arab or even by a Europeanthan bastards?<<


You my friend once again prove why I call you and your kind NEO-HELLINES!!!>>

Of course Hellines are not a "pure race", but the available data demonstrate 
that any potential introgression into the Greek gene pool were minor and did not replace the indigenous people. Hence, the Fallmerayer (as if you know who he is LoL. He supports your Slavic influence on Hellinic genes) thesis has been disproved.

You may feel and honestly believe that you are a bastard all you want, but there is enough genetic research around to prove that the rest of us may not be 100% pure descendants of the ancients but we are at least 90-95%.(do a search) Of course this is a different topic but since we already screwed up the existing one Ill just give you a few things to work on.

Here are some selected parts of genetic research articles for you to go on:

The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in lace>Europelace> thus far is Rosser et al., [1]. The human Y chromosome is passed on from father to son. One can thus study one half of a population's ancestry (along the paternal line) by studying the Y-chromosome. Greek Y-chromosomes belong to haplogroups HG1, HG2, HG3, HG9, HG21 and HG26. None of the 35 Greek Y chromosomes are of non-Caucasoid origin.

Angel studied skeletal material from the Paleolithic to modern times, and participated in examinations of skeletal material throughout the lace>East Mediterranean. With respect to Greece, he found that the morphological types already established in the third millennium BC, if not before that, persisted in all subsequent ages. Thus, he emphasized the racial continuity of Greeks, stating epigrammatically

source: Angel, J. Lawrence, 1946, Social Biology of Greek Culture Growth, American Anthropologist


The research was based on the study of 70 human characteristics (p. ex. body height, width of face, skin colour, shape of eyes etc.) of about 3000 Greek emigrants (after 1949 civil war) in the f. Soviet Union from different Hellenic areas. The statistical elaboration of these characteristics in combination with their geographical distribution demonstrated mathematically (because of their low dispersion) the incessant biological continuity of the Greeks all through the historic and prehistoric epochs, which refer at least to the Mesolithic and Upper Palaeolithic periods (15.000-30.000 years). This historical continuity is also proved by the comparison of measurements of the contemporary inhabitants with those of the ancient skulls of Greece, which statistically show no differences.

Source: THE ORIGIN OF THE GREEKS BY ARIS N. POULIANOS


On the alleged "Sub-Saharan" theory>>

It is sometimes argued that the Greeks absorbed large numbers of Negro slaves or immigrants. There is no evidence of such an event in Greek mtDNA. If it ever took place, it was so limited in scope that not a single sequence in a total of 125 could be found.

References
1) Richards et al., Tracing European founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool. American Journal of Human Genetics, 67, 1251-1276. Online paper and supplementary data in Vincent Macaulay's home page.
2) Michele Belledi et al., Maternal and paternal lineages in Albania and the genetic structure of Indo-European populations, European Journal of Human Genetics, 8, 480 - 486 (01 Jul 2000)
3) Giuseppe Passarino et al., Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms, European Journal of Human Genetics10, 521 - 529 (23 Aug 2002)
4) Esteban J. Parra et al., Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 63:1839-1851, 1998


About Hellines being originally blonde (the Nordic theory) which allegedly supports your idea about Turks

Proof in literature:
There are numerous references to brunets in ancient mythology and literature, e.g., the Muses, Poseidon, Alcmena, Theseus, Zeus, Dionysos and Odysseus are described as possessing either dark hair or dark eyes. Hercules, the Greeks' favorite hero is described as dark (melanan), hook-nosed (grupon) by Dicaearchus (Clement of Alexandria, "Protreptic to the Greeks" 2.30.7). Hercules was also proverbially melampugos (having a black behind) as indicative of his bravery, as opposed to pugargos (having a white behind), a coward . Irwin, E., 1974, Colour Terms in Greek Poetry, Hakkert, Toronto


Artistic Evidence:
Greek art furnishes important information about the racial type of the ancient Hellenes. Coon in observed that the beauty ideal of a straight nose and a lithe body was borrowed from Minoan Crete which was undisputably peopled by Mediterraneans.The characteristic nose-forehead continuity of idealistic depictions of gods and heroes is more typical of Mediterraneans than Nordics , although it was rare for ancient Greeks as it is for modern ones. Angel observes though, that his Dinaric-Mediterranean (Type F) morphological type approaches this ideal, in contrast to the Nordic-Iranian (Type D) in which the nasal bone projects at a sharp angle with the frontal bone.

Feel free to ask for the whole texts.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2005 at 23:47
So more with the Nordic theory, so basically your sayin it was wrong?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Jan-2005 at 03:24

Christscrusader
>>So more with the Nordic theory, so basically your sayin it was wrong?<<

Not sure about what you exactly mean by "So more with the Nordic theory" but yes all genetic research, linguistic, literature, artistic evidence and archeologic finds do prove the continuous population of these lands by the same racial type of people and by doing so actually disprove both Nordic and IE theories.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2005 at 05:18
Due to technical problems i have with the net my replies will be short:All my quotes are in PRESENT TENSE,so i am referring to the PRESENT not to the Ancient Hellens.Interecting research although i was not talking about the whole Hellenic population,but specifically about you.U-Turn?look the term of the Hellen again.Your U-Turn:"original population"-not a "pure race".You've made a progress though,bringing signed work.Know be more odjective,without nationalistic comments. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2005 at 06:44
Originally posted by Hellinas

. , .

"Hellinas", next time you will insult anyone else in such vulgar terms (in Greek or other language) you will be banned instantly. Consider this as your first and final warning!

 

If you like, continue this in Private Messaging. Thread closed!

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