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Role of Iron in Mongols Rise

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Role of Iron in Mongols Rise
    Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 14:05
Does anyone know of any sources that point to the role of iron in the rise of the Mongols?  I have uncovered some mentions of it, but nothing solid.  There is something about the Chin and the iron that had previously been embargoed during the Liao Dynasty.  Any suggestions?
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 14:51
I know that there were great iron-findings in the Altais, and the Secret History mentions Jelmei and Sbetais father as a smith. Also, the name Temdjin means "blacksmith" (i.e. "ironer"), and the related name Timr means "iron"
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  Quote mongke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 18:08
Originally posted by Mangudai

I know that there were great iron-findings in the Altais, and the Secret History mentions Jelmei and Sbetais father as a smith. Also, the name Temdjin means "blacksmith" (i.e. "ironer"), and the related name Timr means "iron"


Did they name people for iron because of the novelty at the time or scarcity?
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 05:01

Originally posted by mongke

Originally posted by Mangudai

I know that there were great iron-findings in the Altais, and the Secret History mentions Jelmei and Sbetais father as a smith. Also, the name Temdjin means "blacksmith" (i.e. "ironer"), and the related name Timr means "iron"


Did they name people for iron because of the novelty at the time or scarcity?
 

Well, Temdjin was named after a captured tatar nobleman that Yesgai had captured shortly before the birth of his son. To be honest I don't know why the mongols and other steppe-neighbours named people after Iron, but I guess it was because the metal's strong qualities and usefulnes. Mind that one of Temdjins brothers was named Temge, and his sister's name was Temlun. Temr was also a popular name. Iron was not a novelty in the steppes, it had been in use at least since the 7th century B.C.E.  

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Dec-2004 at 22:17
It's been a while, but I think in the Secret History, it describes Temujin fully clad in *bronze* armor for the battle against the Naimans. So I guess he wasn't always about Iron. =)
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  Quote Mangudai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 06:13

Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

It's been a while, but I think in the Secret History, it describes Temujin fully clad in *bronze* armor for the battle against the Naimans. So I guess he wasn't always about Iron. =)

 

Well it also describes people "made of iron", "breathing fire" and piercing 20 warriors with a single arrow. You don't have to take everything literary in that book

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  Quote Snafu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Dec-2004 at 18:00
Iron was considered a sacred substance among the Turks and Mongols. It was associated with heaven. That's why the word iron appears in many names. It was a good luck word.  
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  Quote Chono Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Dec-2004 at 09:33
Yeah iron was pretty important. Ironsmiths were extremely respected. People get even nowadays names like "iron" or "steel" or "refined steel". About sources, SHM mentions an "iron cart" which was given to Subedei to hunt down merkits. I think it's safe to assume that such "iron carts" have been used in other missions as well.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2005 at 16:57
I don't wanna look like boasting, but I should note, that before Chyngyzkan's rise, Kyrgyz kaganat was the biggest state in the region. Kyrgyz people weren't only nomads, but produced a lot of  iron weapon. Kyrgyz were the main suppliers of metal weapons to mongolians.
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  Quote blitz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2005 at 07:26

edit...[
  

 



Edited by blitz
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  Quote warhead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 20:46

 

"Does anyone know of any sources that point to the role of iron in the rise of the Mongols?  I have uncovered some mentions of it, but nothing solid.  There is something about the Chin and the iron that had previously been embargoed during the Liao Dynasty.  Any suggestions? "

 

Perhaps this is what you are looking for, contemporary accounts by Meng Hung of Jin records a vast import of high quality iron from China, since before the days of Jin, there was an embargo on the scale of iron and weapon to the north, but subsequently both were exported in considerable quantities during thje time of Jin. Thus the mongols were able to acquire a large amount of high quality steel that previous nomads lacked.

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Feb-2005 at 10:30
Mongol arrowheads were quenched in salt water, which supposedly improved their armor-piercing capabilities.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2005 at 13:02

Thanks to all.

Caliph, do you have a citation for the Meng Hung account? Preferably in english or other translation.

Thanks again for all the postings.

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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2011 at 20:45
Originally posted by Imperator Invictus

It's been a while, but I think in the Secret History, it describes Temujin fully clad in *bronze* armor for the battle against the Naimans. So I guess he wasn't always about Iron. =)

The Japanese wore bronze armor long after they discovered the secret of tempered steel. It's likely the Mongols would have had iron scimitars as bronze swords had a bad reputation for bending mid-battle
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  Quote pelle1953 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2011 at 16:43
The "Iron Age" in China ended 1000 years before Temujin.
But of course, the use of iron plays a big role in warfare even today.

And yes indeed "Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner", it was the very same  Temujin
who first urinated into his waterbucket and got a more rapid cooling process!


Edited by pelle1953 - 30-Nov-2011 at 17:04
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  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2011 at 19:01
Plus, water was a scarce resource in the wilderness, especially for nomadic herdsmen who practically lived in the saddle. Why waste your supplies of drinking water when you have an endless supply of liquid that would otherwise be thrown away?
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  Quote baydlag Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2012 at 20:24
I can say 100% sure names that Temujin, Temuge or Temulen aren't mean Iron.
Iron was definitely important for Military and nomadic life and Mongolians had many famous warriors and kings were called Tomor.

The archaeologists found a old iron mine right beside the Chingis Khan's capital Aurag Ord and expecting Mongol army's arsenal, blacksmiths and miners were in the city.



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  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2012 at 21:24
He transplanted all the smiths from Buhkara to Mongolia.
 
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