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Who were Scythians?

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who were Scythians?
    Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 17:33
Originally posted by Zagros

You are welcome and I am very glad to see that you are open minded on the subject.  Well it is a very interesting topic, because iranians 3000 years ago would have been very similar to Turks of 1500 years ago.  When teh Iranian tribes moved to Iran, they assimilated the local agricultural populations and changed their culture and made it their own (again, like Turks in Iran and Turkey).

Thanks ,and your statement sound really reasonable.I would agree but history tells us that normally agricultural people does assimilate nomadic one when there is cultural clash between them,do you agree that?

The question of the origin of Turks is very interesting and it needs objective and non-political research BY historians, archaeologists and other scientists.

Totally agree!...

 



Edited by oghuzkb
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 17:50
Originally posted by oghuzkb

I agree but thats also my point here about the dates.We are talking Scythians,as facts show they lived steppe around 5 century B.C.and you are saying Iranians came Iran thousands of years ago ,please When? I would say nowadays history is also a science,please show your facts or reasons.

second millenium BC.

I mean here consistancy,please notice I am saying Altaic language,not simply Turks.For sure it is true that nowadays almost all nomads over steepe are Altay language system people,are not they?

well, central asia and the steppe doesnt have much of a population compared to other parts of asia. but yes, now the majority are altaic, however iranic tribes and other tribes still live and roam the region.

yep,I agree,turks are similar to scythians,and it still counts for something,at least there is similerity between Scythians and Turkish nomads!just by the facts I mentioned above.

all nomads are similar in the basics. i dont know why you limit it only to turks and iranic tribes. iranic tribes and turkic tribes were not the only nomadic tribes.

I will agree if you have facts! By the way,we are talking history that is  so long time ago,we dont have any vidios like "assassination of Kennedy",so we have to left some possibilities.Of course we can reference somthing like what Herodoutes wrote,but we cannot deduce simply from that,may be he himself wrote something that he heard which is not the case.at that time,no tell,no internet,people spend several weeks for traviling thousand kilometers.What I am gonna say is before having a reasonable conclusion,we have to refer at least Folklores,Archaeological facts,Languages(i.e.etymology,phonetics,grammer and so  on),Genetics(DNA stuff I mean) and historical documents.

so please calm down, I am pretty much eager to learn something reasonable.

the facts have already been posted in other scythian threads and other threads about central asia.

scythians: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9945& ; ;PN=1

central asia: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9210& ;PN=1



Edited by prsn41ife
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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 18:12
Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by oghuzkb

I agree but thats also my point here about the dates.We are talking Scythians,as facts show they lived steppe around 5 century B.C.and you are saying Iranians came Iran thousands of years ago ,please When? I would say nowadays history is also a science,please show your facts or reasons.

second millenium BC.

So there is a big gap!

yep,I agree,turks are similar to scythians,and it still counts for something,at least there is similerity between Scythians and Turkish nomads!just by the facts I mentioned above.

all nomads are similar in the basics. i dont know why you limit it only to turks and iranic tribes. iranic tribes and turkic tribes were not the only nomadic tribes.

I am not limiting I think.

[quote]

I will agree if you have facts! By the way,we are talking history that is  so long time ago,we dont have any vidios like "assassination of Kennedy",so we have to left some possibilities.Of course we can reference somthing like what Herodoutes wrote,but we cannot deduce simply from that,may be he himself wrote something that he heard which is not the case.at that time,no tell,no internet,people spend several weeks for traviling thousand kilometers.What I am gonna say is before having a reasonable conclusion,we have to refer at least Folklores,Archaeological facts,Languages(i.e.etymology,phonetics,grammer and so  on),Genetics(DNA stuff I mean) and historical documents.

so please calm down, I am pretty much eager to learn something reasonable.

the facts have already been posted in other scythian threads and other threads about central asia.

scythians: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9945& ; ; ;PN=1

central asia: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9210& ; ;PN=1

Unfortunately I did not find any evidence(facts) there that shows they are indo-europian.Well may be they are,but are there any written documents from Scynthian themselvs? then its easy to accept.

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 18:14

indo iranian = indo european. they mean the same thing.

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 18:18

Herodutus about scythians: (Book 4)

"The Scythian soldier drinks the blood of the first man he overthrows in battle. Whatever number he slays, he cuts off all their heads, and carries them to the king; since he is thus entitled to a share of the booty, whereto he forfeits all claim if he does not produce a head. In order to strip the skull of its covering, he makes a cut round the head above the ears, and, laying hold of the scalp, shakes the skull out; then with the rib of an ox he scrapes the scalp clean of flesh, and softening it by rubbing between the hands, uses it thenceforth as a napkin. The Scyth is proud of these scalps, and hangs them from his bridle-rein; the greater the number of such napkins that a man can show, the more highly is he esteemed among them. Many make themselves cloaks, like the capotes of our peasants, by sewing a quantity of these scalps together. Others flay the right arms of their dead enemies, and make of the skin, which stripped off with the nails hanging to it, a covering for their quivers. Now the skin of a man is thick and glossy, and would in whiteness surpass almost all other hides. Some even flay the entire body of their enemy, and stretching it upon a frame carry it about with them wherever they ride. Such are the Scythian customs with respect to scalps and skins. "

[/QUOTE]

I think this is somehow exaggerated.If this is true then there must have been that kinda scalp stuff in Scythian tombs,but in fact there is not,at least 5th century B.C.

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 18:20
Originally posted by prsn41ife

indo iranian = indo european. they mean the same thing.

ok,you are right.but thats not the point.

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 18:23
Originally posted by oghuzkb

Originally posted by prsn41ife

indo iranian = indo european. they mean the same thing.

ok,you are right.but thats not the point.

then what is the point, i dont understand what your asking?

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 18:30
Originally posted by prsn41ife

Originally posted by oghuzkb

Originally posted by prsn41ife

indo iranian = indo european. they mean the same thing.

ok,you are right.but thats not the point.

then what is the point, i dont understand what your asking?

 

Oh dear,this is what I have asked:

Unfortunately I did not find any evidence(facts) there that shows they are indo-europian.Well may be they are,but are there any written documents from Scynthian themselvs? then its easy to accept.

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 19:18
ok, well, let me ask you this, who do you think they are?
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Mar-2006 at 18:43

Originally posted by oslonor

Nuristanis in Afghanistan are direct descendants of Scythians.

Afghan Nuristani Girl


Not sure why you stuck on Nuristanis either, though you could be right.

Linguistically there's a connection between the neighbouring Pashto speakers and Eastern Scythian according to the following Ossetic language resource.

ossetic (Ossetian)

 
ossetic language map

Language Family:

Script Family:

Number of Speakers:

indo-european,
IranianGroup

Arabic

1,000,000


Alphabet: Ossetian is the only surviving language descended from Western Scythian. (See Pashto for Eastern Scythian).

http://www.language-keyboard.com/resource/indo-euro/ossetic. htm 
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  Quote ramin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 01:36
oghuzkb

Unfortunately there's not any written evidence of Scythians themselves, taking into account that they were nomadic folks. However, their language is to be of Eastern branch of Iranian languages. some infomation from Greek sources suggest that their languages is related directly to Sodgian (EIL).
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  Quote Socrates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 07:30
Originally posted by prsn41ife

indo iranian = indo european. they mean the same thing.

Not true.Indo-Iranian is a subgroup of IE, just like celtic,slavic,germanic...

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 14:53

Originally posted by ramin

oghuzkb

Unfortunately there's not any written evidence of Scythians themselves, taking into account that they were nomadic folks. However, their language is to be of Eastern branch of Iranian languages. some infomation from Greek sources suggest that their languages is related directly to Sodgian (EIL).

But we have inscriptions on stones written by nomads,like below(from google).So I think there may be some similar stuff. Russians have lots of archaeological stuff about Scythians ,I only have seen few of them,pitty!

 

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 15:21

Interesting stone men/women (on some stones is deers face) ,considered made by Scynthians or Sakas.there are hunderds of stone sculptures between Altay and Tengri tagh(tian shan) mountains.Some of them are 3 meters high.One found in Tikes valley is 230cm high,face wide is 35cm,body wide is 50cm.All stone men/women faced east direction (looking on the sunrise) since ancient nomads regard sun as a universe ruler.Some stone women even have very long plaits(braids) which reached to their heels.

These are found in Tikes valley in Tengri tagh and Jiminey in Altay.

 

 

 

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 15:29
In Turkish tradition,stone man/wuman is a sign of ones tomb. Same thing holds true or not for Scynthians case has to be discussed.
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 15:35

here is your mistake, which i tried to point out earlier.

you are thinking as if turkic tribes set such standards for nomads, therefor everyone resembling those standards has to be turkic.

that is wrong because turkic tribes did not set those standards!

for example, the bull is sacred in iberian, persian, egyptians, and minoan cultures, but that doesnt mean that they are all related.

another example is that jesus is considered a phrophet in armenia, france, germany, USA, russia, etc...

but that does not mean that these people are related.

you cannot assume that just because somethings the scythians did resembled turkish things, that they are turkish.

infact, how do you know that all these things that you say are turkish are actually turkic? isnt it possible that turks picked these things up from scythians or from someone else.

what your saying resembles ataturks sun language theory, that said all languages are turkic.

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 16:52
Originally posted by prsn41ife

you cannot assume that just because somethings the scythians did resembled turkish things, that they are turkish.

infact, how do you know that all these things that you say are turkish are actually turkic? isnt it possible that turks picked these things up from scythians or from someone else.

what your saying resembles ataturks sun language theory, that said all languages are turkic.

Do you have a bad english or do you have reading problem,I am not gonna irritate you but please,read carefully what I have wrote there,I did not say that Scythians are Turkish,I even did not come out that kinda conclusion.I did write some facts, some similerities what I have found,I am not creating history but searching traces what human left behind!

Now a quastion for you,you seem quite sure that Scythians are Iranians,of course I wont deny the possibilities.But how can you so sure to say they are iranians without enough facts,did not you see what we are discussing here is far before Jesus born, we even dont have any inscriptions from themselves about their identity yet.So I will still leave my quastions until got a firm evidence,at least this is my own right .You are from so called" freedom country" are not you? so dont treat me as you are a dictator.

This is sure a nice topic,we have to discuss it due to its uncertainty.But I am afraid we will screw it up if we go on like this way! Be respectful,I have never heard sun language theory before,now I checked it, and I am not gonna accept it.I dont know why you mixed my word with that,I wrote real facts there,if dont believe just go to East Turkistan and check it,my people will sure welcome you in most friendly way!...

 

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Mar-2006 at 17:13
Originally posted by oghuzkb

Now a quastion for you,you seem quite sure that Scythians are Iranians,of course I wont deny the possibilities.But how can you so sure to say they are iranians without enough facts,did not you see what we are discussing here is far before Jesus born, we even dont have any inscriptions from themselves about their identity yet.So I will still leave my quastions until got a firm evidence,at least this is my own right .You are from so called" freedom country" are not you? so dont treat me as you are a dictator.

im not a historian nor an archeaologist, and neither are you.

you are asking us to show you scythian writing, or some piece of physical evidence which is impossible because we dont have access to these and nor do we know where to get them from.

i know they are iranian for one simple fact:

the fact is that all historians agree they are historians (atleast most). all reputable encyclopaedia's say they are iranic, every source i have ever read say they are iranic.

since i am not a historian myself, i have to rely on these people, and since you are also not a historian, you also have to rely on these people.

i posted you the link the thread about the scythians, but you refused the facts posted there because you want to see physical evidence.

that is impossible, i suggest you build a time machine, go back into the past, and ask the scythians themselves because it seems that that is the only thing you will accept.

im sorry i dont have an ancient scythian artifact in my house to show you, and im sorry that i havent seen any scythian writing, but im sure that all the historians and archeologiest who say that scythians are iranic obviously did so for a reason.

let me ask you this, show me evidence that prooves scythians are not iranic....

this can go both ways, we just have to accept what historians write because they are the experts.

if historians say that scythians are not iranic then who am i to argue with them.  most say that they are iranic, and that is good enough for me.

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2006 at 10:33
I have two quastions:

in Uighur language ,there is a word---Tengri, is it also an Iranian word? if so,what does it mean?

If Iranian tribes were come from steppe, then does anybody know what is the driving force to this movement?

Thank you very much!


Edited by oghuzkb
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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Mar-2006 at 17:57

Originally posted by oghuzkb

I have two quastions:

in Uighur language ,there is a word---Tengri, is it also an Iranian word? if so,what does it mean?

you should ask zagros or someone who knows more about the iranian language.

Originally posted by oghuzkb


If Iranian tribes were come from steppe, then does anybody know what is the driving force to this movement?

Thank you very much!

the same reasons why the turkic tribes moved. 

nomads, as im sure you already know, move around all the time, they dont have a single place where they live. that is how these tribes got to west asia.

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