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Who were Scythians?

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  Quote Akskl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Who were Scythians?
    Posted: 29-Jan-2006 at 23:13
Paul Nazaroff "Hunted Through Central Asia" Oxford University Press 1993
First published 1932

pp.286-288
     Over an immense area in Asia where the wandering Kazakhs have scattered, their manner of life and their peculiar culture, developed through millenia of existence in the free open steppe, is the same, identical in space and identical, too, in time. These nomads were free to move about the plains at their own sweet will, as though upon an open sea, and there was nothing to prevent the Kazakhs of the Tian Shan from wandering away to steppes of Siberia, of the Ural or the Volga, except, of course, nowadays the Bolshevik Government.

This freedom and the mobility of the nomads of the steppe has evolved their own peculiar culture, character and manner of life, and has played a very important part in the history of Asia, which has not yet been properly appreciated by historians nor sufficiently studied. It has reacted profoundly on the fate of Russia, and even Western Europe has by no means escaped its influence. The burning sands of Egypt, the valleys of Mesopotamia and of Palestine (the myriad horsemen of Gog and Magog), and of India and the valleys of Russia and of Central Europe and even Chalons, the Catalaunian plains of France, Hellas, too, and Rome, all have seen the forbears of our Kazakh of to-day, though under various names - as Scythians or Massagetae, Huns, Polovtsi, Kipchaks, Kumans, Pechenegs, Alans, Tartars and so on. On every side their invasions have left their mark, not only destructive, for sometimes they have altered the course of historical development and affected the blood, language, character, manners and customs of the people with whom they have come into contact. Just as the Normans in their day made use of their mobility upon the seas to spread their influence and culture throughout the West, so these nomads of the steppes of Asia have done the same in the East. The broad belt of grassy plains across the old continent, which has given rise to the peculiar type of nomad Turki and his inseparable comrade, the horse of the steppe, has had enormous influence on the destinies of the settled nations and of civilisation itself.
All distant invasions and the ` migration of peoples' have been possible owing to one single factor, hitherto ignored by historians, and that is the horse of the steppes. This animal is endowed with most valuable qualities of supporting fatigue and of endless endurance and the power of keeping up prolonged hard work on green food only, on mere grazing, of which other races of horse are quite incapable, being dependent on corn. These outstanding qualities of the steppe horse were fully appreciated and widely used by the great military leaders of Asia, conquerors, Jenghiz Khan, Tamerlane and the others [1], which explains the secret of their success.
The limits of attainment and conquest of the countless hordes of Asia depended not upon the powers of resistance of the subject peoples nor upon their armies, but were defined by the moist meadow grazing, by the cold damp of the north and by the tropical heat of the valleys of India, which were fatal to the horse of the Kazakhs.
1 See Ivanoff, ' On the Art of War of the Mongol-Tartars' (in Russian), a little known but extremely interesting work. Also two papers by me, " The Scythians Past and Present" ('Edinburgh Review,' July 1929, pp. 108-122), and " The Sons of Gog " (' English Review,' March 1930).
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  Quote Anbalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2006 at 13:01

AMMIANI MARCELLINI

http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/ammianus31.html

[ Hoc expeditum indomitumque hominum genus, externa praedandi aviditate flagrans inmani, per rapinas, finitimorum grassatum et caedes ad usque Halanos pervenit, veteres Massagetas, qui unde sint vel quas incolant terras - quoniam huc res prolapsa est - consentaneum est demonstrare, geographica perplexitate monstrata, quae diu multa indagans acute et varia, tandem repperit veritatis interna.....]


[ omnis igitur aetas et sexus inbellis circa vehicula ipsa versatur, muniisque distringitur mollibus: iuventus vero equitandi usu a prima pueritia coalescens, incedere pedibus existimat vile, et omnes multiplici disciplina prudentes sunt bellatores. unde etiam Persae, qui sunt originitus Scythae, pugnandi sunt peritissimi.] 

[ Abundans Hister advenarum magnitudine fluenti Sauromatas praetermeat ad usque amnem Tanaim pertinentes, qui Asiam terminat ab Europa. hoc transito in inmensum extentas Scythiae solitudines Halani inhabitant, ex montium appellatione cognominati, paulatimque nationes conterminas crebritate victoriarum adtritas ad gentilitatem sui vocabuli traxerunt, ut Persae.]

ISIDORI HISPALENSIS
[ http://www.gmu.edu/departments/fld/CLASSICS/isidore9.html ]
[ Sale filius Iectam, a quo Bactriani, licet eos alii Scytharum exules suspicantur. ]
[ Bactriani Scythae fuerunt, qui suorum factione a sedibus suis pulsi iuxta Bactron Orientis fluvium consederunt, ex cuius vocabulo et nomen sortiti. Huius gentis rex fuit Zoroastres, inventor magicae artis.Parthi quoque et ipsi ab Scythis originem trahunt. Fuerunt enim eorum exules, quod etiam eorum vocabulo manifestatur. Nam Scythico sernione exules 'parthi' dic**tur. Hi, similiter ut Bactriani, domesticis seditionibus Scythia pulsi solitudines iuxta Hircaniam primum furtim occupaverunt, deinde pleraque finium etiam virtute obtinuerunt. ]
[ Limes est Persicus, qui Scythas ab eis dividit, Scytha cognominatus, a quo limite Scythae a quibusdam perhibentur vocati, gens antiquissima semper habita.]
[ Amazones dictae sunt, seu quod simul viverent sine viris, quasi AMA ZON, sive quod adustis dexterioribus mammis essent, ne sagittarum iactus inpediretur, quasi ANEU MAZON. Nudabant enim quam adusserant mammam. Has Titianus Vnimammas dicit. Nam hoc est Amazon, quasi ANEU MAZOU, id est sine mamma. ]
 
CAII JULII SOLINI DE MIRABILIBUS MUNDI http://www.ancienttexts.org/library/latinlibrary/solinus4a.h tml

//quos Scythas Persae lingua sua Sacas dic**t et invicem Scythae Persas//

Who can read Latin? About Amazons it seems to be close to Ossetic too "A-madon" (not able to be mother)

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  Quote oslonor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 11:02
Nuristanis in Afghanistan are direct descendants of Scythians.

Afghan Nuristani Girl


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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Mar-2006 at 19:49
Originally posted by oslonor

Nuristanis in Afghanistan are direct descendants of Scythians.


WHY?

You just say things without any foundations.

NO GOD, NO MASTER!
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 05:56
Because they have a fewe blondes among them of course! making them nordic, just like our trinity look-alike Oslonor.
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  Quote Maljkovic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2006 at 06:11
Originally posted by Scytho-Sarmatian

I've noticed that, for some reason, a lot of you are determined to draw an imaginary dividing line between Europe and Asia, especially when it comes to the Scythians and their time period.  The Scythians themselves did not recognize any such dividing line, as they claimed the entire steppe zone which spanned both continents.  It is a well-documented fact that a great caravan route existed between the Black Sea region and Bactria during the time of the Scythians.  Inhabitants of one area of the steppe zone where by no means isolated from inhabitants of another area.

Except maybe the Ural mountain

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  Quote Scytho-Sarmatian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 05:45
Between the Ural mountain and the Caspian Sea is a very flat steppe zone--the highway used by countless nomad migrations between east and west.
Be brave and answer me.
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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 17:45

First check the photo of a Scynthian tomb at Pazyryk kurgan

please notice the stones around it.For sure the stones piled up over the tomb.who can explain this?

In fact ,there are lots of similar tombs in Altay and Ili region.As I have seen before,at the north side of khan tengri,there is an old city ruin called Shat,it was the palace (orda) of Istemi khaghan( a turkish king).At the south corner of this city ,there are lots of mounded tombs which considered kingsttombs.these tombs are also piled up with stones( spherical or elliptical stones with smooth surface).Based on Turkish tradition,people were used to visit the tombs of heros and kings every year,every time they took a stone with themselves and placed the stone on the top of the tomb.Meaning of this behavior is to show your respect to the sprits of those great people.Year by year,stones piled up over the tomb.Thats the reason why all historical tombs in Altay and Tengri tagh(tian shan in chinese) mountains region are mounds.

 

Now my quastion,Does Iranian people have same tradition like this,I hope i could have a reasonable answer without any bias!

Thanks

 

 



Edited by oghuzkb
ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 18:22

One more thing,from that photo,one can see how Scythians made up their horses,this shows how much mean a horse to them.And its well known fact that they have splendid art of riding.So its reasonable to say that they are originally steppe people.At the same place there are Huns,Mongolians and nomadic Turks.

 

I have never been Iran,Afganistan before,so I am gonna ask you is there a suitable place for feeding horses as in steppe? or does Iranian people have specific Horse culture in both nowadays and back to history ?  of course except cavalry.

 

Thank you very much in advance.



Edited by oghuzkb
ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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  Quote Maziar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2006 at 23:57
You can't compare Scythian with Iranians like this. For sure Scythians were iranic by ethnicity, but they had developed a different cultur, and for sure a different burial ceremony as Iranians who live in Iran.

Edited by Maziar
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 06:39
Originally posted by oghuzkb

One more thing,from that photo,one can see how Scythians made up their horses,this shows how much mean a horse to them.And its well known fact that they have splendid art of riding.So its reasonable to say that they are originally steppe people.At the same place there are Huns,Mongolians and nomadic Turks.

 

I have never been Iran,Afganistan before,so I am gonna ask you is there a suitable place for feeding horses as in steppe? or does Iranian people have specific Horse culture in both nowadays and back to history ?  of course except cavalry.

 

Thank you very much in advance.

Iran is very suitable for breeding and rearing horses, but forget that for an instant.  The Persians, Medeans and Parthians originally came to Iran FROM the steppes of Central Asia they were nomads and some very rural tribes still are.

Second regarding Iran and breeding horses, Iran had whole armies of cavalry during the Parthian and Sassanid era, ever heard of the Parthian shot? The horseman below in Parthian shot stance.

The above is what Herdotus said about the Persian upbringing, so you can see horses and tir kamans (bows) are very important in the culture.  And it is the reason Iran, pre Islam did not fall prey to any steppe invaders, because they knew the steppe tactics and used it themselves.

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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 08:13
Iran is very suitable for breeding and rearing horses, but forget that for an instant.  The Persians, Medeans and Parthians originally came to Iran FROM the steppes of Central Asia they were nomads and some very rural tribes still are.

Second regarding Iran and breeding horses, Iran had whole armies of cavalry during the Parthian and Sassanid era, ever heard of the Parthian shot? The horseman below in Parthian shot stance.

The above is what Herdotus said about the Persian upbringing, so you can see horses and tir kamans (bows) are very important in the culture.  And it is the reason Iran, pre Islam did not fall prey to any steppe invaders, because they knew the steppe tactics and used it themselves.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks man,good to know.I thought Iranians are somehow agricultural,cause I have seen some movievs from director Abbas,and I see real similerity of life stile between Iranic  and Turkic but I did not see any horse in the villages,it seems the culture there is hadicraft.May be this is only partial phenomena.

Another confusing stuff is that you say Iran has so long history,as far as I have understood,its related ancient Babilons,Summerians so to say,now you are saying Iranians from steppe.I was wandering the possibilty of movment here.I mean the agricultural or handicraft people do not tend to move around,you see china,Indea,egypt and Greece,they were there and still there.

But nomads are different,they run east and west,but not much deviated steppe zone,you can see almost all the steepe zone today is settled Altaic language speaking ethinic groups.I dont think this is a coincidence.

Of course I dont refuse the possibilty,cause it is regarded that Aryans originated from Caspian region.Now the archaeological stuff from Pazyryc shows Scythians are much similar to Turkish,so I think we have to discuss their language,is there a more clear fact about which language system do they belong?
ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 10:09

You are welcome and I am very glad to see that you are open minded on the subject.  Well it is a very interesting topic, because iranians 3000 years ago would have been very similar to Turks of 1500 years ago.  When teh Iranian tribes moved to Iran, they assimilated the local agricultural populations and changed their culture and made it their own (again, like Turks in Iran and Turkey).

The question of the origin of Turks is very interesting and it needs objective and non-political research BY historians, archaeologists and other scientists.

 

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  Quote saiwan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 11:20

Zagros: Dont get defensiv now. U can insult me its ok, but dont get defensive now.

 

I am just curious. When u say iranian tribes, exactly what do u mean? Iran as is today is filled with baluchis, gilakis, kurds, fars, afghans, arabs, azeri, turks, etc. Did they exist 3000 years ago in the area? Or?

I am curious, explain pls. Because i get confused, once the term persian is used for all the iranians and then plain iranians. Pls explain the distinctive differences between iranina and persian. Coz i have might missuunderstood u.

 

Herodutus about scythians: (Book 4)

"The Scythian soldier drinks the blood of the first man he overthrows in battle. Whatever number he slays, he cuts off all their heads, and carries them to the king; since he is thus entitled to a share of the booty, whereto he forfeits all claim if he does not produce a head. In order to strip the skull of its covering, he makes a cut round the head above the ears, and, laying hold of the scalp, shakes the skull out; then with the rib of an ox he scrapes the scalp clean of flesh, and softening it by rubbing between the hands, uses it thenceforth as a napkin. The Scyth is proud of these scalps, and hangs them from his bridle-rein; the greater the number of such napkins that a man can show, the more highly is he esteemed among them. Many make themselves cloaks, like the capotes of our peasants, by sewing a quantity of these scalps together. Others flay the right arms of their dead enemies, and make of the skin, which stripped off with the nails hanging to it, a covering for their quivers. Now the skin of a man is thick and glossy, and would in whiteness surpass almost all other hides. Some even flay the entire body of their enemy, and stretching it upon a frame carry it about with them wherever they ride. Such are the Scythian customs with respect to scalps and skins. "

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 11:35

Originally posted by oghuzkb



Thanks man,good to know.I thought Iranians are somehow agricultural,cause I have seen some movievs from director Abbas,and I see real similerity of life stile between Iranic  and Turkic but I did not see any horse in the villages,it seems the culture there is hadicraft.May be this is only partial phenomena.

ok, you are confusing yourself. you are assuming that we are still nomads

no, just like how turks in turkey dont run around with horses anymore, and have now settled down into cities and villages and agriculture, iran did the same. 

the first iranian tribes to settle down (infact, the first civilisations in central asia, before the achaemenids) were the sogdians and the bactrians. these iranian peoples made the first central asian empires (i think in 2000 BCE (?) which was a long long long time ago).



Another confusing stuff is that you say Iran has so long history,as far as I have understood,its related ancient Babilons,Summerians so to say,now you are saying Iranians from steppe.I was wandering the possibilty of movment here.I mean the agricultural or handicraft people do not tend to move around,you see china,Indea,egypt and Greece,they were there and still there.

ok, calm down, your getting you dates confused.  Iranian tribes came into Iran from central asia and the steppe region many thousands of years ago. by the time the sumerians and elamites had set up their empires, iranian peoples were now in the region, and would eventually conquer all of them.



But nomads are different,they run east and west,but not much deviated steppe zone,you can see almost all the steepe zone today is settled Altaic language speaking ethinic groups.I dont think this is a coincidence.

what??????


Of course I dont refuse the possibilty,cause it is regarded that Aryans originated from Caspian region.Now the archaeological stuff from Pazyryc shows Scythians are much similar to Turkish,so I think we have to discuss their language,is there a more clear fact about which language system do they belong?

you are saying it as if turks created the standard for some one to be a nomad. why dont you think of it this way, instead of scythians being similar to turks, what if its turks that are similar to scythians?

and the scythians did speak and indo iranian language.



Edited by prsn41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 12:14

Prsn, seriously, STOP wording your posts so offensively, you cintinuously post in an ad hominem manner, this is totally unhealthy for debate and is one of the reasons why so many threads turn to the brown stuff.  You make valid points, but there is absolutely NO NEED for your tone.

Originally posted by saiwan

Zagros: Dont get defensiv now. U can insult me its ok, but dont get defensive now.

 

I am just curious. When u say iranian tribes, exactly what do u mean? Iran as is today is filled with baluchis, gilakis, kurds, fars, afghans, arabs, azeri, turks, etc. Did they exist 3000 years ago in the area? Or?

I am curious, explain pls. Because i get confused, once the term persian is used for all the iranians and then plain iranians. Pls explain the distinctive differences between iranina and persian. Coz i have might missuunderstood u.

 

Herodutus about scythians: (Book 4)

"The Scythian soldier drinks the blood of the first man he overthrows in battle. Whatever number he slays, he cuts off all their heads, and carries them to the king; since he is thus entitled to a share of the booty, whereto he forfeits all claim if he does not produce a head. In order to strip the skull of its covering, he makes a cut round the head above the ears, and, laying hold of the scalp, shakes the skull out; then with the rib of an ox he scrapes the scalp clean of flesh, and softening it by rubbing between the hands, uses it thenceforth as a napkin. The Scyth is proud of these scalps, and hangs them from his bridle-rein; the greater the number of such napkins that a man can show, the more highly is he esteemed among them. Many make themselves cloaks, like the capotes of our peasants, by sewing a quantity of these scalps together. Others flay the right arms of their dead enemies, and make of the skin, which stripped off with the nails hanging to it, a covering for their quivers. Now the skin of a man is thick and glossy, and would in whiteness surpass almost all other hides. Some even flay the entire body of their enemy, and stretching it upon a frame carry it about with them wherever they ride. Such are the Scythian customs with respect to scalps and skins. "

Why would I get defensive?

There are/were many Iranian tribes: These were the Parthians, Medes, Scythians, Alans/Ossets and others.  when I refer to Iranian tribes I refer to these people among others, it would thus be inaccurate to call them Persians since they are but ONE of the tribes. 

You can look up any academic source and it will tell you the same thing, that all of these tribes were related and the name used for the relation is Iranian - again, not tied to the polity of Iran.

Persian was the name given to all people of Iran by Westerners (from Greek sources) before 1936 when Reza Shah demanded that the country be referred to as Iran to reflect its many ethnicities, he himself was Gilaki.

 

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 13:38
Originally posted by Zagros

Prsn, seriously, STOP wording your posts so offensively, you cintinuously post in an ad hominem manner, this is totally unhealthy for debate and is one of the reasons why so many threads turn to the brown stuff.  You make valid points, but there is absolutely NO NEED for your tone.

what tone are you talking about?? im totally confused right now. what offensive comments?

i said that he is confusing his dates, which he was, and that he was thinking about a vast time in history to quickly, and that he needed to calm down.

if thats offensive, im sorry, but i dont think that he would take comments like that offensive. its not like i called him stupid or anything.



Edited by prsn41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 13:46

ok, calm down, your getting you dates confused. 

what??????

ok, you are confusing yourself.

 

Condescending tone, you may not think much of it yourself, but it is the kickstart.  make your point without such expressions in a neutral tone.

 

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  Quote Iranian41ife Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 13:51
Originally posted by Zagros

ok, calm down, your getting you dates confused. 

what??????

ok, you are confusing yourself.

 

Condescending tone, you may not think much of it yourself, but it is the kickstart.  make your point without such expressions in a neutral tone.

 

again, i said calm down because he was thinking about a vast time in history as if it was just a few years. 

i said what??? because i didnt understand that statement.

its not offensive. like if i am getting myself confused or something, i would like someone to tell me that i am confused, so that i know whats wrong, and then tell me why im confused.

how do teachers teach you at school? when your confused about something, they tell you to calm down, relax, and then they teach it to you.

the guy was asking us questions, and i tried to answer those questions as simple as i could so that he wouldnt have to feel confused anymore.

Another confusing stuff is that you say Iran has so long history,as far as I have understood,its related ancient Babilons,Summerians so to say,now you are saying Iranians from steppe.I was wandering the possibilty of movment here.I mean the agricultural or handicraft people do not tend to move around,you see china,Indea,egypt and Greece,they were there and still there.

he said he was confused man.

zagros, your jumping to conclusions to quickly.



Edited by prsn41ife
"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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  Quote oghuzkb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2006 at 17:29

ok, you are confusing yourself. you are assuming that we are still nomads

Thats why I asked that.

Another confusing stuff is that you say Iran has so long history,as far as I have understood,its related ancient Babilons,Summerians so to say,now you are saying Iranians from steppe.I was wandering the possibilty of movment here.I mean the agricultural or handicraft people do not tend to move around,you see china,Indea,egypt and Greece,they were there and still there.[/quote]

ok, calm down, your getting you dates confused.  Iranian tribes came into Iran from central asia and the steppe region many thousands of years ago. by the time the sumerians and elamites had set up their empires, iranian peoples were now in the region, and would eventually conquer all of them.

I agree but thats also my point here about the dates.We are talking Scythians,as facts show they lived steppe around 5 century B.C.and you are saying Iranians came Iran thousands of years ago ,please When? I would say nowadays history is also a science,please show your facts or reasons.



But nomads are different,they run east and west,but not much deviated steppe zone,you can see almost all the steepe zone today is settled Altaic language speaking ethinic groups.I dont think this is a coincidence.

what??????

I mean here consistancy,please notice I am saying Altaic language,not simply Turks.For sure it is true that nowadays almost all nomads over steepe are Altay language system people,are not they?


Of course I dont refuse the possibilty,cause it is regarded that Aryans originated from Caspian region.Now the archaeological stuff from Pazyryc shows Scythians are much similar to Turkish,so I think we have to discuss their language,is there a more clear fact about which language system do they belong?

you are saying it as if turks created the standard for some one to be a nomad. why dont you think of it this way, instead of scythians being similar to turks, what if its turks that are similar to scythians?

yep,I agree,turks are similar to scythians,and it still counts for something,at least there is similerity between Scythians and Turkish nomads!just by the facts I mentioned above.

and the scythians did speak and indo iranian language.

I will agree if you have facts! By the way,we are talking history that is  so long time ago,we dont have any vidios like "assassination of Kennedy",so we have to left some possibilities.Of course we can reference somthing like what Herodoutes wrote,but we cannot deduce simply from that,may be he himself wrote something that he heard which is not the case.at that time,no tell,no internet,people spend several weeks for traviling thousand kilometers.What I am gonna say is before having a reasonable conclusion,we have to refer at least Folklores,Archaeological facts,Languages(i.e.etymology,phonetics,grammer and so  on),Genetics(DNA stuff I mean) and historical documents.

so please calm down, I am pretty much eager to learn something reasonable.

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ALLAH gave us two books---Quran and Nature.        ---Jamaliddin Efghany
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