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Suevari
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Topic: Who were Scythians? Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 05:41 |
An interesting exerpt from some work by Fred Hamori based on works by Gyula Mészáros on Scythian roots:
REAL SCYTHAINS OF MESOPOTAMIA
It is a common
fallacy to call Scythians Iranians based on the fact that the Greeks continued
to use the Scythian name long after the disappearance of the Northern
Mesopotamian & Anatolian Scythians who were conquered and absorbed by the
Iranian Suoramata. The association of the conquered with the conqueror however
is common but still inaccurate. After this event there occurred such a
confusion in the minds of the Greeks concerning their previous northern
neighbors that they applied the term to other nomadic or equestrian people with
similar outward habits, including the Saurmatians, Huns, Turks and later even
Germanic tribes. This progression only occurred over a long time when the
"Scythian" term became a gross generalization of a horse-nomad. Yet
the original Scythians were not nomads and had cities, ships arts and trades,
which the early Greeks admired. The later Pseudo Scythians often copied some of
their arts and habits but were but a poor imitation of the original.
The real Scythians, however lived first in Anatolia before the 7th century BC,
then moved in large numbers to the Kuban Region in early 6th century BC, then
to the Pontic Steppes and later to eastern Europe and to Turkestan. Before this
time they must have conducted long term trade with the region also. They
greatly influenced the culture of the peoples they interacted with including
the so called Finnougrians in the north and also the Hunic-Turkic peoples in
the east and probably also some Indo Europeans. The important question which we
may never be able to answer with absolute certainty is, were they the real
ancestors of the common language strata in Ural-Altaic? This can only be
partially true unless their influence was from a much much earlier time then
their northern migration. The reason I even mention this is that it appears
that the decoded words I have found in Scythian is often found in these
languages also, as well as their late descendants in the Kartwelian Languages
of the lace wt="on">Caucasuslace>. Following this historical
introduction a systematic review of the Scythian language remains will be
introduced using early Anatolian languages as comparison, based on the
linguistic researches of Gyula Mészáros (Hattic and Pakhy languages), with some
addition from my own review of Hurrian and Sumerian.
We know relatively little of the early Scythian language, except that it came
from ancient lace wt="on">Anatolialace> and therefore must be
related to the languages of that region such as Hattic, Hurrian, Subarian.
Indeed if these are used as a guide much of the language of these "real
Scythians" from 6century BC to the 2nd century BC can be decyphered,
whereas they cannot be understood with the help of Iranian languages. Only the
later Sauromata and later pseudo Scyth language remains can be understood with
Iranian. To make the confusion more complete, the conquering Sauromata also
must have absorbed large Scythic elements which often kept many of their old
customs, but were forced to change their languages. Therefore outwardly they
must have seemed to be the same people. The explosion of Scythic peoples in the
east could not just be a population explosion of one people but the whole
conquered patchwork of peoples.
First of all a comparison of early Scythian customs, art forms, religious
beliefs and even their first historic mention is all from Anatolia and Northern
Messopotamia. First in Assyrian documents. The early Greek writers confirm this
also. Therefore they were not a northern people at all ! Nor an eastern one
from lace wt="on">Central Asialace>. Plinius writes of their
origins "Ultra sunt Scytharum populi, Persae illos Sacas in universum
appellavere a proxima gente, antiqui Arameos." They came from an area in
Northern Messopotamia often called Arameos, which is but a name of Urartu whose
first king was called t="on">lace wt="on">Aramlace>.
Later the term was also applied to t="on">Syria
where another colony of Scythians & Hati-Hittites (2000BC to 714BC) settled
after the collapse of their old empire in lace wt="on">Anatolialace>.
Indeed this was but one of the reasons for the spreading of Anatolian people to
the north also. Both Assyrian and Mede attacks forced them to look for new
lands to settle./Meszaros
Herodotus also tells of the origin of the Scythians from the area of eastern
Anatolia watered by the laceName wt="on">AraxeslaceName> laceType wt="on">RiverlaceType> (modern Turkish Aras) and not the lace wt="on">Amu Daryalace> which the historians of Alexander invented to
enlarge their own conquests. Herodotus writes: "The nomad Scythians living
in Asia (once only the near east) were attacked by the Sarmatians and were
forced to cross the lace wt="on">Araxeslace> and wander to the
land of the Kimmerians."
This is but one late version of a confused story, other early Greeks tell it
differently that the warlike Scythians crossed over on their own account. The
Sarmatian attack was a later event, but they must have been a long time thorn
in their side because Herodotus mentioned them living to the north of the
Scythians of the Black Sea regions and not close to their old homelands along
the lace wt="on">Araxeslace>.
Hesiod, 7th Century BC, writes: The inventors of bronze working were the
Scythians. The early Messopotamian name of the metal Zubur, indicates that the
northern Messopotamian Subartuan's or a people of the region were indeed the inventors
of the process. The Scythians also of this region were therefore but a
different designation of such people that the Greeks associated with them.
The Greeks also associated the invention of iron working with the Scythians.
This again is a northern Messopotamian and Anatolian invention and being
Anatolian in origin the Scythians also had some great iron working tribes like
the Kalybs tribe which gave steel its name in many early European languages. In
time they became absorbed by the Sarmatians and Yazig. They must have also been
remembered by the Yazig cavalry taken by the Romans to early t="on">lace wt="on">Britainlace> and
were the foundation of the King Arthur myths of Ex-Calibur, and the sword myths
which are all early Anatolian traditions. These traditions were also found in
Hun and Magyar traditions and mentioned by Herodotus amongst the early
Scythians.
Besides bronze and iron they are credited by the early Greeks to have invented
the bellows used for metal smelting. The invention of the pottery wheel and the
boat anchor. Products of a very early civilization.
Therefore when Justinius II writes that the Scythians are one of the most
ancient races in the world, older than the Egyptians, He cannot be talking of
simply the late Scythian immigrants to the Pontic steppes but the early
northern Messopotamian cultures. Similarly he cannot be talking of the Iranian
tribesmen which spread into lace wt="on">Central Asialace>. Nor
is he talking of the later Hun tribes for sure, since they were hardly known
for a such a long time in the west.
It is Deodorus Siculus who talks of the death and disappearance of the true
Scythians at the hands of the Sarmatians, who could not have been their
relatives, and therefore not real Scythians. The early Scythian art style is an
extension of Messopotamian art, a fact which cannot be denied any longer. The
illustration of early Scythians also looks like a branchycephalic Anatolian
race, which from early times has also been slowly spreading into lace wt="on">Eastern Europelace> (Körös Culture). They absorbed some
northern dolycephalic peoples also but these represented less then 10% of their
population. Today in Europe the lace wt="on">laceType wt="on">territorylaceType>
of laceName wt="on">Old HungarylaceName>lace> is the
center of branchycephalic types. This type is growing throughout Europe and
dolycephalic types last remnants are in t="on">lace wt="on">Englandlace> and the northern Germanic
areas. Looking at early Scythian representation one may as well be looking at
the representation of a Hurrian or Assyrian, minus the curly hair.
One of the main introductions of the Scythians is iron weapons and horse
riding. Both of Anatolian origin.
Representation of horse soldiers from the Mitani-Hurrian state from 12century
BC and Hittite reliefs from the 14th and 12th century show its early sporadic
use, just waiting for the right equipment to be developed.
The horse is utilized mainly to pull a chariot rather than an unstable back of
the horse, until basic saddles are invented by the scythians and much better
saddles and stirrups are invented by the Hunno-Turkic peoples. (1AD Hun
stirrups). The name of the horse, warhorse and charriot in Hungarian are all
from northern Messopotamia. Horse riding equipment like saddles, reins,
strirrups are from Hunno-Turkic languages. None by way of any Indo European
language..
The Scythians were famous above all because of their horsemanship and great
knowledge of raising and riding horses. This comes from their old homeland as
is shown by the documents of Sargon (722-705BC).
North East of Urmia-lake in Urartu, there was a Sangi-buti land with two cities
famous for its horses.
The Chaldi (Urartu) signs from the 8th century BC also talk of the land between
the Transcaucasian Kura and lace wt="on">laceName wt="on">AraxeslaceName>
laceType wt="on">RiverlaceType>lace> area and often
mentions their horses. From a military expedition they obtained 10,000s of
horned cattle and 100, 000 s of sheep, and 100s of horses. /Mescaninov, t="on">lace wt="on">Leningradlace> (Chaldi ...?)
After this introduction I have used the pioneering work of Gyula Meszaros, into
a comparative study of the language of the Scythians. Introducing basic words
and their application in recorded Scythian names and titles which remain in
many examples. Unfortunately no large textual remains are found today making it
difficult to validate all of his comparisons. Even so this is a great lurch
forward in a long stalemated study which up to now were utilizing simplistic
associations with sound alike names, that could be described in many random
ways, but forming no cohesive system.
Before the end of this sections let me at least give a few examples of what
will follow in a later report.
Sco-lo-et-i =the name of the ruling Scythian people
Sco-lo-pi-t-(us) = a Scythian kings name /Justinius II
1)Sco =rule, chief /Scyth
šxa =man, sir /Pakhy
sha =chief /Hatti
išha =sir /Hittite
sag' =head, isag=chief /Sumer
sang =head, peak /Ugrian
2)lo =people, folk, (army-large group)
lu-lu =people /Sumerian
la =army /Hatti
?lo-fu =chief -head ruler of the late Huns near China
3) et =to be/being
They believed that they originated from the son of the sky/weather god, called
TAR
Hence the name TAR-gi-ta or more correctly tar-xu-ta =HIGH/WEATHER God.+son's+
land./Meszaros.
His children therefore are TAR-XU, which is one possible source of the TURK
name also.
History has also shown that the Magyar term is generally found in early
references in association with Scythians rather than in the north and the
Hungarian Chronicles state their Scythian links. But these are different
branches of a once related group to which Scythians serve only as a later
offshoot. Each group with languages that have somewhat different phonetic
characteristics, but often with similar terms and an agglutinative language
structure, no gender in pronouns, and so on. The following sections will cover
the proposals of Gyula Meszaros written in the 30s and ignored ever since.
Mészáros claims that the Scythians had a triple kingship system, which is
symbolized in their legend of origin and also at times when under attack three
leaders arise to rally the people against the invaders. This is like the
Khazars and Magyars, who each ruled a special area of society. One, the
theocratic king or the ruler of the royal house, which is Leipoxis is much like
the Hungarian Kende, who had no power outside of his area. There was the ruler
of all the armies, the Scythian Arpoxais, who wielded considerable power over
the free men, the nobles and army, this was the Gyula title whose name was
Árpád, who was the Jula in Kazaria. Then there was the last ruler Kolaxis in lace wt="on">Scythialace> and the Hungarian Horka, who was the ruler over
the common people. The Hungarian Horka was the chief judge also. He ruled over
the "black heads", the common workers, farmers, craftsmen etc. Horka?
Kara=black in Turkic. The common people were called the "Pa-ra-la-ti"
in Scythian. Pa-ra=land-black-people, but this also means dust, sand in
Sumerian "par-im", Hungarian "por" and Turkic
"bar" also. The "Para-szt" are the lowly peasants in
Hungarian. The only strange thing with this explanation is that the legend
seems to emphasize the importance of Kolax(is) as the chose one of god, when he
alone is able to lift the various tools of gold that god rains down from above.
Perhaps these too just represent the tools of the workers, which the warrior
king and the theocratic king cannot and must not touch! But not so, only the
first two the golden plow and yoke are work tools, the sword should be for
Arpoxais and the golden goblet generally used for prayers should be for
Leipoxais.>>
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 22:39 |
im just telling you want some people believe because the other guy was trying to use the fact that some turks today claim to be descendants of the saka's (scythians).
i was trying to show him exactly what you said.
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Socrates
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Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 17:30 |
Europeans:
vikings, saxons, celts
also, the vikings may also have been descendents of the scythians, however that is not yet 100% proven.
100 %?? There's a few hints-nothing more.Every speculation can be easily explained through common IE "ancestry".
also, the nazi's believed that they were of the saxon tribes, which were descendants of the scythians, therefore they were aryans. and germans today still believe that their ancestors came from central asia, and ofcourse, the germans are indo european.
All of this is highly dubious...not to mention that what that painter wanna be claimed had nothing to do with reality...
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 13:52 |
i dont see what that proves?
can you summarise?
the persians called the scythians saka, the chinese called the scythians sai.
and ofcourse the greeks called them scythians.
and many other people also claim that they are descendants of the saka:
tribes in india that claim to be descendants of the saka's:
pashtuns, marathas, rajputs, jats, trakhans, kammas, and lohars
Europeans:
vikings, saxons, celts
also, herodutos notes that what he called the "persian tribes" seperated when one faction refused to help conquer babylonia. that other faction, if we are to believe herodutos, was the scythians.
also, the vikings may also have been descendents of the scythians, however that is not yet 100% proven.
also, the nazi's believed that they were of the saxon tribes, which were descendants of the scythians, therefore they were aryans. and germans today still believe that their ancestors came from central asia, and ofcourse, the germans are indo european.
there is also some very rare scythian (ofcourse from later periods, the scythians origionally had no writing system) writing on bowls that show similarities to the indo european languages, however, its not clear yet.
Edited by Iranian41ife
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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oghuzkb
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Posted: 23-Apr-2006 at 12:54 |
Something new:
While we find huge number of stone mans that made by Saks(scynthian) only in north part of Tengri mountains(Tien shan),and archeologic facts found in Ili vally as below:
source
Bronze figure of Saka period unearthed in Tukkuztara(Gongliu) county
Gold mask unearthed at Boma ancient cemetery, Mongolkure(Zhaosu) county
Open-work bronze plate on stand with human figures and sheep, Saka period, unearthed in Narat, Kunes(Xinyuan) county
Qiute interestingly there are also lot of names of places related to Saks in south part of Tengri mountains,e.g. villages name such as Tukkuzak(old times as Tukkuzsak)---means nine sak ,Oghuzsak---oghuz sak.These are very old villages close to Kashgar city in East Turkistan.And the people there claim that their ancestors called Sak.
Edited by oghuzkb
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Suren
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 23:41 |
oslonor again.
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Anfører
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 18:44 |
stop trolling you pan iranist.
i have talked to turkish forumers about you before oslonor. you are a racist anti turk supramacist pan iranist. stop trolling.
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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oslonor
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 18:41 |
Originally posted by merced12
Things which Turks claim Turkish but are actually Iranian:
1) Mevlana (A citizen of a Turkish empire of Iranian origin.) 2) Carpet (Invented by Iranians, but the technique was mainly developed by Turko-Iranian co-operation) 3) Sakas, mainly the Scythians who are the western Sakas. (IN reality Some Sakas are Turkish, some are Iranian.) 4) Soghdians (definetely 100% Iranian)
Things which Iranians claim Iranian but are actually Turkish:
1) Azeris (Yes some are converted and assimilated Iranians, but this will not make them Iranian at all.) 2) Safavids (Pure 100% Turkish, even against Ottomans, they used the propoganda, Turks against the ROmans. Safavids formed their army from Turkomans of Khurasan.) 3) Afsarids (Pure Turkish again.) 4) Qajars (Turkish)
this is my point
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I completely agree with you. You are %100 correct. Azeris and others you mention are Turks and were Turks and never lost their language and had nothing to do with Iranians as some people here try to claim. Celebrating Nowrus and speaking Persian does not turn an Azeri Turk into Iranian either.
Edited by oslonor
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 17:10 |
more sources (i did some research):
"They were a mounted nomadic herdsmen, of the Indo-European language family."
P. 240 New Standard Encyclopedia (S-SLU) |
In regards to the Scythians:
"2. Their extinct Iranian Language."
P.1283 Websters New World Dictionary (Library and office edition) |
"They spoke an Indo-Iranian language but had no system of writing."
P.2550 The Columbia Encyclopedia Sixth Edition |
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Zagros
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 14:26 |
Rumi was invited by Seljuq Sultan to Konya.
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 12:22 |
Originally posted by merced12
Things which Turks claim Turkish but are actually Iranian:
1) Mevlana (A citizen of a Turkish empire of Iranian origin.) 2) Carpet (Invented by Iranians, but the technique was mainly developed by Turko-Iranian co-operation) 3) Sakas, mainly the Scythians who are the western Sakas. (IN reality Some Sakas are Turkish, some are Iranian.) 4) Soghdians (definetely 100% Iranian)
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actually, rumi fled the mongol invasion in the east and went to a town in the west of persia, which is now part of turkey, but at the time was still part of persia.
Originally posted by merced12
Things which Iranians claim Iranian but are actually Turkish:
1) Azeris (Yes some are converted and assimilated Iranians, but this will not make them Iranian at all.) 2) Safavids (Pure 100% Turkish, even against Ottomans, they used the propoganda, Turks against the ROmans. Safavids formed their army from Turkomans of Khurasan.) 3) Afsarids (Pure Turkish again.) 4) Qajars (Turkish)
this is my point
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no one claims the safavids, qajars, azari's, etc...
they are turkic definetly. but the point is that they were an iranic people (or someone else), who were turkified and are now turkic, and will probably remain turkic. therefore, safavids qajars and azari's are turk.
you are confused about the difference between "claiming" and "wanting to know about origions".
and we iranians dont have to claim the qajars and the safavids, because they themselves did the job for us, they considered themselves as part of Iran, and just another dynasty in the many dynasties that ruled Iran.
Edited by prsn41ife
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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merced12
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 12:19 |
Originally posted by Zagros
http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/sassanids/sassanid_kings.html
here are Sassanid Kings, look at latter coins, all have the crescent and star. This was easiest for me to find, but I know it has been used by sumerians etc, as there have been threads on this subject before.
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thanks zagros
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http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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merced12
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 12:17 |
Things which Turks claim Turkish but are actually Iranian:
1) Mevlana (A citizen of a Turkish empire of Iranian origin.) 2) Carpet (Invented by Iranians, but the technique was mainly developed by Turko-Iranian co-operation) 3) Sakas, mainly the Scythians who are the western Sakas. (IN reality Some Sakas are Turkish, some are Iranian.) 4) Soghdians (definetely 100% Iranian)
Things which Iranians claim Iranian but are actually Turkish:
1) Azeris (Yes some are converted and assimilated Iranians, but this will not make them Iranian at all.) 2) Safavids (Pure 100% Turkish, even against Ottomans, they used the propoganda, Turks against the ROmans. Safavids formed their army from Turkomans of Khurasan.) 3) Afsarids (Pure Turkish again.) 4) Qajars (Turkish)
this is my point
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http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 12:09 |
yes zagros, i know that the crescent and the star are not only turkic, but if the scythians were turkic, then they most definetly would have also used that symbol.
but they dont.
@DayI, yes the scythians had a mystical pagan religion just as most nomads of the time had. but it was not the same religion, the practices were different, that is why the crescent and the star symbol isnt common amongst scythian symbols, if at all.
and can we say that iranians, turks, and arabs are the same because they all practice islam? no.
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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Zagros
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 11:27 |
http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/sassanids/sassanid_kings.html
here are Sassanid Kings, look at latter coins, all have the crescent and star. This was easiest for me to find, but I know it has been used by sumerians etc, as there have been threads on this subject before.
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merced12
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 08:05 |
Originally posted by Zagros
Crescent and star is not historically symbolic of Turks anyway, it was used in the times of Sumerians through Byzantines and Sassanids to Turks. Only in modern times has it become a nationalist symbol of Islam and Turks. |
any source zagros
Edited by merced12
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http://www.turks.org.uk/
16th century world;
Ottomans all Roman orients
Safavids in Persia
Babur in india
`azerbaycan bayragini karabagdan asacagim``
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DayI
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 07:53 |
an Scythian crown with shamanistic motifs. Later i'll post yakutsk/sakha crowns.
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Zagros
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Posted: 30-Mar-2006 at 07:43 |
Crescent and star is not historically symbolic of Turks anyway, it was used in the times of Sumerians through Byzantines and Sassanids to Turks. Only in modern times has it become a nationalist symbol of Islam and Turks.
Edited by Zagros
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Iranian41ife
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Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 22:01 |
no, you are 100% right, language alone cannot prove anything.
just how azari's were turkified, it is possible that scythians were iranified.
but there is no proof of iranificatoin. the scythians had no writing system, no country to conquer, nothing that someone could change. there is no way that the scythians could have been iranified.
and by the way, herodotus wasnt thousands of miles away from them. the scytians did inhabit easter europe and asia minor.
also, i did some research on scythian symbols, the crscent and the star does not seem to be included in them, and we all know that the turkic tribes of the steppe used that symbol as part of their religion. so if the scythians were turkic, we would assume that they would also have used that symbol, but that is not the case.
all the iranic tribes that came out of central asia and the steppe region had one thing in common, to my knowledge, known of them used to crescent and the star as religous symbols. the same goes with the scythians.
i could be wrong, because i just did some quick research, i'll leave it for you to decided whether you believe me or not, if not, then do your own research.
so lets discuss teh origion of scythians from another angle. if they werent iranic, then what were they, and with what evidence?
Edited by prsn41ife
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"If they attack Iran, of course I will fight. But I will be fighting to defend Iran... my land. I will not be fighting for the government and the nuclear cause." ~ Hamid, veteran of the Iran Iraq War
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barbar
General
retired AE Moderator
Joined: 10-Aug-2005
Location: Italy
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 781
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Quote Reply
Posted: 29-Mar-2006 at 21:58 |
Well, their language might be Iranic, still we need more basic proofs from archeological researches, rather than just refering to some ancient historians who lived thousands of miles away from them in the past.
Now the question is where they have gone? which present day enthic group mainly composes the remnants and continued their culture? This people surely have the right to claim Sychians are their ancesters.
If language is the main concern for you, then please be humble to admit that Azeris are Turkic.
Edited by barbar
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Either make a history or become a history.
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