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Possible Union of Churches

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Possible Union of Churches
    Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 09:29
Ok so lets say that the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople get on the same page and come to an agreement on the re-unification of churches.
 
This though process led me to some questions that I am not qualified to answer.
 
1. How long would this process take? Would it happen instantaneously and  thus chaotically for a while, or would an ecumenical council be called to smooth all the rough edges?
 
2. Would the other autocephalous churches respect the decision of the Patriarch or would some Sees like that of Moscow, use this as an oppurtunity to increase their political prestige?
 
3. How would most Orthodox christians handle this, would they respect the wishes of the Patriarch and join in union with Rome, or would they try to resist this action?
 
4. What would we call ourselves? My simple answer would be Orthodox would simply be Eastern Catholics, like those churches that have all ready unified, but this might just be found a bit offensive to some Orthodox, so would the name Eastern Orthodox remain and Catholics would be refered to as Western Orthodox? It seems silly but names do have meaning.
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  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 09:39

The two churches will never unite.

How can the Pope accept to give up his power? Or do you expect the orthodox patriarchs to be under the Pope in hierarchy?

The two churches don't need the union.


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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 13:55
The Churches are divided for more than 4 centuries.They took different paths.You can see their differences in almost everything:their clothes,their languages,their dogmas etc.

We are talking about two very powerfull(the Patriarchate of Constantinople is historically and spiritually powerfull,not politically) and very historical Churches:The Catholic-Latin  Church and the Eastern Orthodox-Byzantine-Hellenic Church.Only from their past, their historicall environment and bakground,and their names it's almost impossible for them to unite.Too much history which nobody of the 2 will ever abandon for the shake of the Unification.


Edited by Spartakus - 30-Nov-2006 at 13:57
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  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 13:57
Originally posted by JanusRook

4. What would we call ourselves? My simple answer would be Orthodox would simply be Eastern Catholics, like those churches that have all ready unified, but this might just be found a bit offensive to some Orthodox, so would the name Eastern Orthodox remain and Catholics would be refered to as Western Orthodox? It seems silly but names do have meaning.

How about - just "Christians".
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 16:00

How can the Pope accept to give up his power? Or do you expect the orthodox patriarchs to be under the Pope in hierarchy?


I expect a return to the way things were before the schism, with the Eastern churches recognizing the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of Peter as the "rock upon which [Christ's] church was built."


The two churches don't need the union.


I beg to differ all churches are in desperate need of reunion until there is only one faith in God to welcome his return to earth.


The Churches are divided for more than 4 centuries.They took different paths.You can see their differences in almost everything:their clothes,their languages,their dogmas etc.


I beg to differ on that, sure there are many differences, but these aren't theologically at odds with the Catholic church, no one wants to force Orthodox to change anything, if you go to a Ukrainian Uniate mass you'll see no difference between a Ukrainian Orthodox mass, yet the one is in union with the Roman church.

Also, the only dogmas AFAIK that aren't shared between the churches (and thus the only thing stopping union) are the Immaculate Conception and Mary's role as co-redemptrix. Both of which have been defined in terms by catholic theologians in ways that aren't contrary to the beliefs shared by orthodox theologians.

Catholic and Orthodox are like popsicles, one can be orange flavored and one can be grape flavored, but we both have the same type of stick proping us up.


How about - just "Christians".


Axeman we're all ready Christians, obviously. I was meaning what we would be referenced as, seeing as Baptists, Lutherans and Methodists all fall under "Christian".



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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 17:43
Originally posted by Janus Rook

I expect a return to the way things were before the schism, with the Eastern churches recognizing the Bishop of Rome, the Successor of Peter as the "rock upon which [Christ's] church was built."
 
You misunderstand the nature of the passage, as well as the historical position of the universal church. Neither history nor Scripture bear out you interpretation. I shall explain:
 
Item 1:  Peter is the rock upon which the church is built, not his successors. Rome's main claim to primacy is that she was the imperial city at the time the Church was legalized.
 
Item 2: The fact that Peter is the rock does not imply any sense of universal primacy (we will discuss this in greater detail momentarily).
 
Item 3: The Eastern church did recognize the primacy of honor exercised by Rome; this is not to be confused with the Roman assertion of a primacy of jurisdiction.
 
The only way to union is the abandonment, by the papacy, of its assertion to a universal primacy over the Church.
 
The universal witness of the Fathers precludes a Roman interpretation of papal prerogatives. In addition to this, the universal witness of Scripture reveals the Roman position regarding the universal primacy of the pope as so much nonsense. If you disagree we can discuss this; I eagerly await your reply.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 30-Nov-2006 at 17:48
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 18:14

Peter is the rock upon which the church is built, not his successors.


True, but the church IS everlasting and Peter being human is not, therefore the legitimate successors of Peter, the bishops of Rome are in charge of the foundation of christianity.


The Eastern church did recognize the primacy of honor exercised by Rome; this is not to be confused with the Roman assertion of a primacy of jurisdiction.


I do not agree nor do I believe the modern church agrees with primacy of jurisdiction. The bishop of rome is one of five Apostolic churches, each equal amongst each other. The bishop of Rome has no more jurisdiction over Constantinople than it does Jerusalem.

The problem is the interpretation of Papal politics. The office of Pope has gone to a more Vicar of Christ role in that they have set up a system where the Pope's are elected by the international church (college of cardinals). If the Orthodox were to re-unite then Orthodox would be appointed as Cardinals, and would select the next representative of Christ. Who would take the 'position of honor' as Primate of the Church.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 18:43
Originally posted by Janus Rook

True, but the church IS everlasting and Peter being human is not, therefore the legitimate successors of Peter, the bishops of Rome are in charge of the foundation of christianity.
 
The Apostles were called, as a group, to spread the Gospel message. Peter was simply the first among equals. This is shown multiple times in the book of Acts, and re-emphasized in the Epistles.
 
Furthermore, Rome owed her position in the universal Church (and will again should she ever choose to rejoin the universal Church) to her position as the capital of the Roman Empire--the oikoumene.
 
I do not agree nor do I believe the modern church agrees with primacy of jurisdiction. The bishop of rome is one of five Apostolic churches, each equal amongst each other. The bishop of Rome has no more jurisdiction over Constantinople than it does Jerusalem.
 
The modern Roman Church does assert a primacy of jurisdiction. The pope, in the eyes of the Roman Church, possesses the right to interfere in the appointment of bishops in the territory of the other Patriarchates. The churches of the Unia are examples of this, and their formation derives from another Roman assertion which must be abandoned--the belief that only those in communion with Rome are in communion with the Church.
 
Furthermore, no matter how little it has been of use throughout history, the Roman bishop claims the right to speak infallibly in matters of faith and morals. No matter how many restrictions are placed on this doctrine (speaking with the intention to bind, speaking ex cathedra, etc.), it is profoundly unorthodox.
 
The problem is the interpretation of Papal politics. The office of Pope has gone to a more Vicar of Christ role in that they have set up a system where the Pope's are elected by the international church (college of cardinals). If the Orthodox were to re-unite then Orthodox would be appointed as Cardinals, and would select the next representative of Christ. Who would take the 'position of honor' as Primate of the Church.
 
Your understanding is partially orthodox. Still, no one bishop is to be the supreme head of the Church, no matter who elects him. The one head of the Church is Christ.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 30-Nov-2006 at 18:47
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 19:31

The one head of the Church is Christ.


Yes but until Christ returns to earth he needs ONE representative on earth to communicate the ONE true faith of the ONE God who dwells in the ONE Kingdom of Heaven.*


The modern Roman Church does assert a primacy of jurisdiction. The pope, in the eyes of the Roman Church, possesses the right to interfere in the appointment of bishops in the territory of the other Patriarchates. The churches of the Unia are examples of this, and their formation derives from another Roman assertion which must be abandoned--the belief that only those in communion with Rome are in communion with the Church.


This was done at a time when the Papacy thought that it could not communicate any further with Constantinople and in sought re-union with each church separately. Which historically it had done, with similar schisms, Ariansims, Donatism, etc. Once union is complete though, the separate bishoprics would be merged I think.

Honestly though, which council set aside the "territory of the Patriarchs" seeing as the establishment of churches was a more haphazard affair in the dark ages, see the conversion of slavs to Catholicism and Orthodoxy.


Furthermore, no matter how little it has been of use throughout history, the Roman bishop claims the right to speak infallibly in matters of faith and morals. No matter how many restrictions are placed on this doctrine (speaking with the intention to bind, speaking ex cathedra, etc.), it is profoundly unorthodox.


The practice of infallibilty exists so that there are some revealed truths that are un-changeable to christianity. The only reason that it is attached to the Papacy is because of the heir's of Peter arguement. In practice this is only to clarify a point made by a council of bishops. Since early church history called council after council to clarify points that didn't necessarily need a council to clarify.


*ONE representative and ONE true faith aren't meant to sound as harsh as they seem. They are objective terms and not necessarily tied to say Catholicism in particular.

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 19:48

Furthermore, Rome owed her position in the universal Church (and will again should she ever choose to rejoin the universal Church)


See I find this statement interesting in how the two churches see each other. I believe that modern Catholic leaders don't see us as separate churches. Case in point, as an Orthodox christian you can receive Communion in a Catholic church administered by a Catholic priest but I couldn't go to an Orthodox church and receive communion by an Orthodox priest.
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 20:48
Originally posted by JanusRook

Yes but until Christ returns to earth he needs ONE representative on earth to communicate the ONE true faith of the ONE God who dwells in the ONE Kingdom of Heaven.*
 
Each bishop represents Christ within his jurisdiction. There is no "ONE representative on earth," unless you consider the Church collectively. We do agree that there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all."
 
This was done at a time when the Papacy thought that it could not communicate any further with Constantinople and in sought re-union with each church separately. Which historically it had done, with similar schisms, Ariansims, Donatism, etc. Once union is complete though, the separate bishoprics would be merged I think.
 
It is more than that. The Roman Church has historically defined that communion with the Church is shown only through communion with the Roman See--that being the individual who sits on the throne of the Roman See.
 
As for the heresies you mention, yes the Roman bishop and the other bishops have the right to excommunicate heretics in their respective dioceses. The Roman See has no more authority in this matter than any of the other Patriarchates.
 
Honestly though, which council set aside the "territory of the Patriarchs" seeing as the establishment of churches was a more haphazard affair in the dark ages, see the conversion of slavs to Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
 
The sixth canon of the Council of Nicaea (325) defined the geographical jurisdictions of Alexandria and Antioch. It also accepted the traditional authority of the Roman bishop over parts of Italy. The seventh canon bestowed honor, but not metropolitan status on Aelia (Jerusalem). The third canon of Constantinople (381) elevated Constantinople to Patriarchal status. The ninth canon of Chalcedon (451) gave Constantinople the right to hear appeals (a right previously granted to Rome by the local council of Sardica in 343).
 
The twenty eighth canon of Chalcedon expanded on the power of the Ecumenical Patriarchs, granting them authority over Pontus, Thrace, Asia, and missionary churches among the barbarians. This, incidentally, is why the Slavs were under the jurisdiction of Constantinople (except in Moravia, where Roman missionaries impeded the work of Greek missionaries). There are several more canons that deal with the geographical jurisdictions and rights of the individual Patriarchal sees.
 
The practice of infallibilty exists so that there are some revealed truths that are un-changeable to christianity. The only reason that it is attached to the Papacy is because of the heir's of Peter arguement. In practice this is only to clarify a point made by a council of bishops. Since early church history called council after council to clarify points that didn't necessarily need a council to clarify.
 
It is the sole prerogative of the Church assembled in an Ecumenical Council to speak infallibly. No individual Christian is infallible. This is the universal witness of the Fathers and Scripture. Not a single shred of solid evidence can be found for the doctrine of infallibility in the entirety of the history of the undivided, pre-schism Church.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 30-Nov-2006 at 20:55
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 22:32
There is no "ONE representative on earth,"

Does God choose a non-divine messenger on earth to communicate his message in or does he reveal his message to each person individually?


Honestly though, which council set aside the "territory of the Patriarchs"


I know my quote but I want to thank you, I didn't know that the councils addressed these issues, makes sense though.


It is more than that. The Roman Church has historically defined that communion with the Church is shown only through communion with the Roman See--that being the individual who sits on the throne of the Roman See.


Yes because the Roman church recognizes that it is a continuation of an unbroken line from Christ to the modern age. Thus it is the original church, of course the Orthodox has just as much right and is thus it is the original church as well.


As for the heresies you mention, yes the Roman bishop and the other bishops have the right to excommunicate heretics in their respective dioceses. The Roman See has no more authority in this matter than any of the other Patriarchates.


And at this the Catholic church agrees 100%.

No individual Christian is infallible.


Of course, but it isn't the Pope that makes these decisions. It is Divine Will that guides him to make these decisions. And although it isn't clearly stated Papal infallibility is eluded to in several councils notably Ephesus, Chalcedon, 3rd and 4th Constantinople. And AFAIK he has only made these statements as a result of various councils (these of course have taken place after the schism).

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 02:41


I beg to differ on that, sure there are many differences, but these aren't theologically at odds with the Catholic church, no one wants to force Orthodox to change anything, if you go to a Ukrainian Uniate mass you'll see no difference between a Ukrainian Orthodox mass, yet the one is in union with the Roman church.

Also, the only dogmas AFAIK that aren't shared between the churches (and thus the only thing stopping union) are the Immaculate Conception and Mary's role as co-redemptrix. Both of which have been defined in terms by catholic theologians in ways that aren't contrary to the beliefs shared by orthodox theologians.

Catholic and Orthodox are like popsicles, one can be orange flavored and one can be grape flavored, but we both have the same type of stick proping us up.


 
The colour of the clothes is symbolic.It's not accidental that the Orthodox priests wear black.Everything are symbolic.Orthodox art is way too different for the Catholic one etc
 
The problem is not very much the differences itself,but the political conclusion the Papacy made from those differences.They believe that the Pope is higher than any other religious leader,and that he is unmistakable.Both are pretty laghable.
 
Relevant articles.
 
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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 11:16
Originally posted by Janus Rook

Does God choose a non-divine messenger on earth to communicate his message in or does he reveal his message to each person individually?


Neither. God reveals His will collectively to individual Christians through the divinized institution of the Church (that being the Church as a whole).

I know my quote but I want to thank you, I didn't know that the councils addressed these issues, makes sense though.


You're most welcome. The Councils dealt with a staggering number of issues (morality, theology, ecclesiology, praxis, etc.)

Yes because the Roman church recognizes that it is a continuation of an unbroken line from Christ to the modern age. Thus it is the original church, of course the Orthodox has just as much right and is thus it is the original church as well.


If the schism is viewed in terms of the one Church of Christ being divided then, in a sense, the above statement is correct. The fact that the Church is divided, and that there is disagreement over important matters of doctrine and Church structure, means that one of the two churches holds incorrect beliefs.

If the disagreements were simple matters of ritual they could be overlooked...although most medieval ecclesiastics would disagree.

Of course, but it isn't the Pope that makes these decisions. It is Divine Will that guides him to make these decisions. And although it isn't clearly stated Papal infallibility is eluded to in several councils notably Ephesus, Chalcedon, 3rd and 4th Constantinople. And AFAIK he has only made these statements as a result of various councils (these of course have taken place after the schism).


It is a matter of some dispute how many times it has been proclaimed. Almost all Catholics agree that the proclamations regarding the "Immaculate Conception" of the Theotokos and her bodily assumption were instances of the pope attempting to exercise his "infallible" authority.

As for the Councils you mentioned, I would be interested to know what, exactly, in Ephesus and Chalcedon you take as support for the doctrine of papal infallibility as expressed by the Roman Church. The Third Council of Constantinople (6th Ec. Counc.) presents a good argument against the doctrine, but none for it. The ecumenicity of the fourth council of Constantinople is a matter of great dispute, but even there you will not find support for the Roman dogma of infallibility.

To what, exactly, are you referring when you say that these councils elude to papal infallibility?

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 12:51

Neither. God reveals His will collectively to individual Christians through the divinized institution of the Church (that being the Church as a whole).


So if the whole Christian body knows a truth, what is the harm in one of the more influential members saying that truth. We are all a family, and what a grandfather says has more weight than what your son says.


and that there is disagreement over important matters of doctrine and Church structure, means that one of the two churches holds incorrect beliefs.


The only difference in the church is the confusion over the primacy of Peter. This goes to Papal Infallibilty, anything that is Infallible has been named in a council, except the two times in all of history that the pope has spoken ex cathedra. These are over the Immaculate conception and Assumption of Mary, neither of which I believe is incompatable with Orthodox teachings. Everything else is just extraneous, you can choose to question it or not. So therefore the only incorrect belief is the question of the primacy of Peter, which AFAIK is being resolved as we speak in the Catholic church so that it can be acceptable to Orthodox terms.


To what, exactly, are you referring when you say that these councils elude to papal infallibility?


From what I understand, it stems from the recognition of Papal primacy, which if you take the logical steps it produces:

St. Peter is the caretaker of Christ's church (the rock) +
St. Peter's heir is the Pope (Bishop of Rome) +
God guides his church through the Holy Spirit

If you take all those to be true then the Holy Spirit speaks through the caretaker of the church. Thus Papal infallibility, at least that's how I see their reasoning. And the council's I've mentioned have agreed that those are the case unless I'm mistaken, I'll look it up more to see if I can get more specific answers.


They believe that the Pope is higher than any other religious leader,and that he is unmistakable


No they believe that the Pope is the caretaker of the church. Although this does lead one to conclude he is the primary religious leader.

Also, the Pope is not unmistakable, he can make many mistakes. The only time he cannot make a mistake is when he speaks ex cathedra because the Holy Spirit himself prevents the Pope from error.

------------------------------------------

Embarrassed It's seems I made a personal error, it seems only the Assumption and the Immaculate Conception are ex cathedra teachings. Pope John Paul II's assertion that Mary is co-redemtrix was not considered ex cathedra. My bad.



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  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Dec-2006 at 20:12
Originally posted by Janus Rook

So if the whole Christian body knows a truth, what is the harm in one of the more influential members saying that truth. We are all a family, and what a grandfather says has more weight than what your son says.


And there you have it. That is the orthodox interpretation, and should the bishop of Rome ever acknowledge these terms there could be serious talk of reunion. I am afraid, however, that the Roman assertions go beyond this. The councils always gave the words of the pope extra weight, but were never under obligation to confirm them. In addition to this, the councils do not depend upon the popes confirmation, as the modern Roman church asserts.

The only difference in the church is the confusion over the primacy of Peter. This goes to Papal Infallibilty, anything that is Infallible has been named in a council, except the two times in all of history that the pope has spoken ex cathedra. These are over the Immaculate conception and Assumption of Mary, neither of which I believe is incompatable with Orthodox teachings. Everything else is just extraneous, you can choose to question it or not. So therefore the only incorrect belief is the question of the primacy of Peter, which AFAIK is being resolved as we speak in the Catholic church so that it can be acceptable to Orthodox terms.


Well, many Orthodox theologians do, indeed, disagree with the doctrine of the Immaculate conception. They would ask why, if Mary was immaculately conceived, do we not extend this to her parents, and her parents parents, ad infinitum.

As for the primacy, your interpretation seems to be a bit more orthodox than that held by the modern Roman church. If Roman theologians honestly examine the doctrine and return to an orthodox interpretation the Church may yet be reunited.

From what I understand, it stems from the recognition of Papal primacy, which if you take the logical steps it produces:

St. Peter is the caretaker of Christ's church (the rock) +
St. Peter's heir is the Pope (Bishop of Rome) +
God guides his church through the Holy Spirit

If you take all those to be true then the Holy Spirit speaks through the caretaker of the church.


You have made one of several arguments from the primacy, but this in no way supports the doctrine of infallibility. The entire Church is guided through the Holy Spirit--the other Patriarchs no less than the pope. Why not extend the infallibility to the other Patriarchs individually?

Thus Papal infallibility, at least that's how I see their reasoning. And the council's I've mentioned have agreed that those are the case unless I'm mistaken, I'll look it up more to see if I can get more specific answers.


Once again, I would like to know to which acts, canons, or letters of the councils you are referring. They occasionally deal with the primacies of the different sees, but they never speak of an infallibility granted to any of the sees.

No they believe that the Pope is the caretaker of the church. Although this does lead one to conclude he is the primary religious leader.

Also, the Pope is not unmistakable, he can make many mistakes. The only time he cannot make a mistake is when he speaks ex cathedra because the Holy Spirit himself prevents the Pope from error.


The Holy Spirit protects the pope from error when he is in agreement with the rest of the Church, not when he speaks "ex cathedra". No individual Christian is, of himself, protected from error. When a pope or patriarch errs, the Church has the right to cut them off, a procedure which has precedent.

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Dec-2006 at 10:11

In addition to this, the councils do not depend upon the popes confirmation, as the modern Roman church asserts.


But as St. Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses, "a practical rule that conformity with Rome is a sufficient proof of Apostolicity of doctrine against the heretics."

I'm not claiming St. Irenaeus is a divinely inspired source, but this reflected a common view held by many bishops at the time around the 2nd-3rd centuries.


They would ask why, if Mary was immaculately conceived, do we not extend this to her parents, and her parents parents, ad infinitum.


Whose to say her parents weren't, when the Pope makes comments he only speaks about what is, not what isn't. Also, whose to say that God himself did not intervene in her conception? Which I guess in order for it to be Immaculate he would have to.... The Catholic position I guess is that the vessel which God chose to enter this world had to be as free from sin as he was in order to preserve his divine purity.


Why not extend the infallibility to the other Patriarchs individually?


Because God chose to be one God, chose to send one Incarnation, chose to create one church and chose one heir on earth. God exists as a communal unity, and so does his church, even though we may not know it yet.


No individual Christian is, of himself, protected from error.


Exactly, no individual is, but the office itself is. The office is what is infallible not the person holding the office.


Once again, I would like to know to which acts, canons, or letters of the councils you are referring.


This is all I have so far, although I hesitated to place them because I was a bit confused with their proper meaning due to ambiguity. However I doubt these are anything more than a condensed version since I got it from newadvent.com which is straight from a Catholic Encyclopedia written in the twenties.


PROOF OF PAPAL INFALLIBILITY FROM TRADITION

One need not expect to find in the early centuries a formal and explicit recognition throughout the Church either of the primacy or of the infallibility of the pope in the terms in which these doctrines are defined by the Vatican Council. But the fact cannot be denied that from the beginning there was a widespread acknowledgment by other churches of some kind of supreme authority in the Roman pontiff in regard not only to disciplinary but also to doctrinal affairs. This is clear for example, from:

  • Clement's Letter to the Corinthians at the end of the first century,
  • the way in which, shortly afterwards, Ignatius of Antioch addresses the Roman Church;
  • the conduct of Pope Victor in the latter half of the second century, in connection with the paschal controversy;
  • the teaching of St. Irenaeus, who lays it down as a practical rule that conformity with Rome is a sufficient proof of Apostolicity of doctrine against the heretics (Adv. Haer., III, iii);
  • the correspondence between Pope Dionysius and his namesake at Alexandria in the second half of the third century;
  • and from many other facts that might be mentioned (see PRIMACY).

Even heretics recognized something special in the doctrinal authority of the pope, and some of them, like Marcion in the second century and Pelagius and Caelestius in the first quarter of the fifth, appealed to Rome in the hope of obtaining a reversal of their condemnation by provincial bishops or synods. And in the age of the councils, from Nicaea onwards, there is a sufficiently explicit and formal acknowledgment of the doctrinal supremacy of the Bishop of Rome.

  • St. Augustine, for example, voices the prevailing Catholic sentiment when in reference to the Pelagian affair he declares, in a sermon delivered at Carthage after the receipt of Pope Innocent's letter, confirming the decrees of the Council of Carthage: "Rome's reply has come: the case is closed" (Inde etiam rescripta venerunt: causa finita est. Serm. 131, c.x);
  • and again when in reference to the same subject he insists that "all doubt bas been removed by the letter of Pope Innocent of blessed memory" (C. Duas Epp. Pelag., II, iii, 5).

And what is still more important, is the explicit recognition in formal terms, by councils which are admitted to be ecumenical, of the finality, and by implication the infallibility of papal teaching.

  • Thus the Fathers of Ephesus (431) declare that they "are compelled" to condemn the heresy of Nestorius "by the sacred canons and by the letter of our holy father and co-minister, Celestine the Bishop of Rome."
  • Twenty years later (451) the Fathers of Chalcedon, after hearing Leo's letter read, make themselves responsible for the statement: "so do we all believe . . . Peter has spoken through Leo."
  • More than two centuries later, at the Third Council of Constantinople (680-681), the same formula is repeated: "Peter has spoken through Agatho."
  • After the lapse of still two other centuries, and shortly before the Photian schism, the profession of faith drawn up by Pope Hormisdas was accepted by the Fourth Council of Constantinople (869-870), and in this profession, it is stated that, by virtue of Christ's promise: "Thou art Peter, etc."; "the Catholic religion is preserved inviolable in the Apostolic See."
  • Finally the reunion Council of Florence (1438-1445), repeating what had been substantially contained in the profession of faith of Michael Palaeologus approved by the Second Council of Lyons (1274), defined "that the holy Apostolic see and the Roman pontiff holds the primacy over the whole world; and that the Roman pontiff himself is the successor of the blessed Peter Prince of the Apostles and the true Vicar of Christ, and the head of the whole Church, and the father and teacher of all Christians, and that to him in blessed Peter the full power of feeding, ruling and governing the universal Church was given by our Lord Jesus Christ, and this is also recognized in the acts of the ecumenical council and in the sacred canons (quemadmodum etiam . . . continetur.

Thus it is clear that the Vatican Council introduced no new doctrine when it defined the infallibility of the pope, but merely re-asserted what had been implicitly admitted and acted upon from the beginning and had even been explicitly proclaimed and in equivalent terms by more than one of the early ecumenical councils. Until the Photian Schism in the East and the Gallican movement in the West there was no formal denial of papal supremacy, or of papal infallibility as an adjunct of supreme doctrinal authority, while the instances of their formal acknowledgment that have been referred to in the early centuries are but a few out of the multitude that might be quoted.





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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 08:20
Originally posted by JanusRook


... and what a grandfather says has more weight than what your son says.

 
Yay!
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 08:21
Originally posted by JanusRook

Ok so lets say that the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople get on the same page and come to an agreement on the re-unification of churches.
 
Re-unification? When was the church ever unified?
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 21:24

Originally posted by JanusRook


... and what a grandfather says has more weight than what your son says.

 
Yay!


What can I say, I'm a Confucianist.


Re-unification? When was the church ever unified?


So true, so true, perhaps I should have used the term re-communicated (?is that even a word?)
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