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Romans = great warriors???

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Imperatore Dario I View Drop Down
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  Quote Imperatore Dario I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Romans = great warriors???
    Posted: 11-Feb-2005 at 17:27
Originally posted by ChineseManchurian

Rome have great army, but they are not great worrior. 1 on 1 PK they can not defeat barbarians. They beat Guals because Phanlanx and weapons. not cause of strong.

PS:barbarians always have no order. many battle they should win but they lost.

First off, the Romans used the legion, not the phalanx. Secondly, the Romans were effective fighters, which is why they managed on successfully conquering Gaul and the entire Mediterranean world. That's quite an achievement, especially since at that time, the Mediterranean was full of powerful, diverse nations. Rome was a tiny city-state, if they were incapable fighters, how in the world did they manage on occupying and maintining such a vast land, lasting for a 1,000 years? Plus, what do you mean the barbarians "had no order"? They were quite organized and effecient by the time the Roman Emprie was in decline, they arleady formed their own kingdoms, they just needed territory to secure one in. That's why they targeted Rome.


Let there be a race of Romans with the strength of Italian courage.- Virgil's Aeneid
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 07:59

 

Originally posted by ChineseManchurian

Rome have great army, but they are not great worrior. 1 on 1 PK they can not defeat barbarians. They beat Guals because Phanlanx and weapons. not cause of strong.

What a load of utter BS that is...

The whole notion that the Roman legionary had no individual fighting skill is completely ludicrous, and is certainly not backed up by the surviving evidence.

We know from Flavius Renatus Vegetius' Epitoma Rei Militaris that legionary recruits received rigorous training in swordfighting and other weapons skills, in the system known as the armatura, which was based on gladiatorial training methods.   The recruits were instructed in their skills by a doctor armorum.  Training methods included working various thrusts and cuts at the pallum (6-foot target stake), while using a weighted wooden sword (rudius) and wickerwork shield.  Later, recruits were paired off and engaged in some sort of free-bouting, with real swords covered in leather.

The emphasis on realistic training was perhaps best summed up by the Jewish historian Jospeh Ben-Matthias, aka Flavius Josephus:

"Their drills are like bloodless battles, and their battles are like bloody drills."

And the legionaries had individual skills other than swordplay.  Their use of combative grappling has been documented:

Cassius Dio 71.7:

The Iazyges were conquered by the Romans on land at this time and later on the river. By this I do not mean that any naval battle took place, but that the Romans pursued them as they fled over the frozen Ister and fought there as on dry land. The Iazyges, perceiving that they were being pursued, awaited their opponents' onset, expecting to overcome them easily, as the others were not accustomed to the ice. Accordingly, some of the barbarians dashed straight at them, while others rode round to attack their flanks, as their horses had been trained to run safely even over a surface of this kind. The Romans upon observing this were not alarmed, but formed in a compact body, facing all their foes at once, and most of them laid down their shields and rested one foot upon them, so that they might not slip so much; and thus they received the enemy's charge. Some seized the bridles, others the shields and spearshafts of their assailants, and drew the men toward them; and thus, becoming involved in close conflict, they knocked down both men and horses, since the barbarians by reason of their momentum could no longer keep from slipping. The Romans, to be sure, also slipped; but in case one of them fell on his back, he would drag his adversary down on top of him and then with his feet would hurl him backwards, as in a wrestling match, and so would get on top of him; and if one fell on his face, he would actually seize with his teeth his antagonist, who had fallen first. For the barbarians, being unused to a contest of this sort, and having lighter equipment, were unable to resist, so that but few escaped out of a large force.

The particular throw is clearly a Roman version of judo's tomo-nage

So, to draw this artificial line between "warriors" and "soldiers" is a bit misleading. 

Did the Romans train to fight in an organized unit?  Of course.  Does that mean that they didn't have individual fighting skills?  No.  They clearly had plenty of ability in that regard.

So many people love to play up the supposed greater individual swordfighting skill of the barbarian peoples (Celts, especially), and while their swordplay was praised in some circles, it was also criticized.  Dionysius of Halicarnassus wrote about the downside of barbarian swordplay--things like "crosswise blows aimed at no target" and cuts "which were aimed too high".  In addition, Polybius criticized Gallic sword design, which appears to have had a negative impact on swordplay--he commented that the slash was "the peculiar and only stroke of the Gauls, as their swords have no points".  Examination of La Tene II period Gallic swords does reveal many blades with ends that are rounded or even squared off (some almost resemble later executioners' swords in blade form).

Contrast the above with what Dionysius of Halicarnassus said about the Romans who fought the Gauls--he even points out that legionaries made use of cuts to the hamstring (which later became a specialty of Renaissance-era Mediterranean swordplay).  Dionysius wrote about the Romans:

...holding their swords straight out, they would strike their opponents in the groin, pierce their sides, and drive their blows throught their breasts and into their vitals.  And if they saw any of them keeping these parts of the body protected, they would cut the tendons of their knees or ankles and topple them to the ground roaring and biting their shields and uttering cries resembling the howling of wild beasts.

Were the Romans "warriors" or "soldiers"?  I'd say that they qualified as both.

Thus, in the final analysis, this notion of

1 on 1 PK they can not defeat barbarians.
is sheer nonsense.

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote J.Caesar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Apr-2006 at 22:08
Romans poor warriors! You are so off base. Only Hannibal and the Persians really made Rome pay. Tuetinberg forest is questionable..3 legions strung out and and betrayed by A Roman soldiers(German origin), they really thought most German tribes were pacified because of the horrendous defeats)Germans) they suffered I will mention and they were not even armed when attcked. However three legions was not anywhere near the biggest loss for the Romans..not even close! Also, there is question now that perhaps the Romans really didn`t loose but fought the Germans off.(albeit great loss of lifeand stolen standards)
Dan Peterson, American Army, historian, went over there investigating. He seen the sites and by analyzing burial mounds(Romans) there were even animals buried. How could the Roamns have had time to bury the dead? These were made by Romans and dated exactly at that time and from Varus`s forces. Becuse they drove off the Germans. How could they drive off them when so trapped and most likely outnumbered at leat 10 to one? Simple. Look at the stats from the Cimbrian wars. These will astound you. Dan Peterson feels that later German historians warped accounts of the trap and diminshed accounts of the true battles:
Marius,Drussus and Germnaicus had so many victories against the Germans and agaist such odds that he concludes the Germans were not good fighters just all show.(as Caesar indiacted earlier)
Look at the the numbers we are talking about at these battles:
Battle of Vercellae: 50,000 Roamns(8 legions) against OVER 200,000 Germans. Result:140,000Germans dead, over 60,000 prisoners. Roman loss of life- less than 1000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!* Wikpedia and German historian Theodor Mommsen. ( he was not drawn in to the German history distortion fro propaganda, according to Petersen)
There were many such battles where the Romans were so outnumberd,always outnumberd.
Mow how could there be less than 1000 Roman deaths(many recorded accounts) and why was this battle not glorfied! Answer mentioned by Petersen. Trurh is the Germans were pitiful warriors and only attcked the Roamns when they knew they were vulnerable or trapped and when they had great numbers on their side. Think that Ameriacn boyscouts with Swiss army knives could do a better job if there were over 200,000 of them against just 50,000!
These are the facts. Conan was a myth.
Petersen feels the Romans were the most amazing specimens there were. Not as tall as some(even though you had to be 5 ft 10 inches minumum,Mike Tyson would have just made it) but he feels they had enormous strength coupled with quick reaction time and agilty. Hand to hand victories require this besides formation discipline. Being so outnumbered all the time Petersen feels that the indivdual Roman soldier is way overlooked. I agree with him.
Roamns loss gainst superior bows and horseman(Persians,etc.) and Haniiball(Rome did not have a professioanl army then) ,Goths- Baltic or German or other origin.(late Rome was a shell of otself and legioanires were not Roman anymore).
Conclusion:Roman foot soldier best infantryman ever...well perhaps American Marines are

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  Quote Marcus Crassus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Jun-2007 at 08:58

the germanic tribes were bigger but were really not very   intelligant they put on markings/tattos to protect them .. .... lol  armor would have been alot beter ... like the defeat of queen budaka w/e the BLEEP  her name is lol. Roman commander finds a good area wich has only one entrance to it. sp they cant be flanked or anything so then when the celtics try to attack them the romans have a awsome formations    VVVVV  best i could do but lol like a huge row of V SHAPED troops and when the celtics charge in theyin the gap between ech v and therefore can just be hit continuisly by the roman legions they all have there huge shields up like a wall so celts are trapped so chaotic lol  also cool one for when its just an open plain battlefield get like bunch of men in a row and have more rows behind them so if the man at the front is tired man behind him can go up and soforth very cool and also funny part at budaka battle was when celts are charging romans have spears there just throwin at them like crazy and with basicly no armor its a horro seen for the celts ... im done talking

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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 01:57
Originally posted by Mangudai

To me the romans were lousy warriors. Despite their extraordinary training, great numbers, discipline and organisation they were crushed. Just like the equally advanced Chinese were crushed time and time again by nomad hordes or other foreign powers. The greater the civilisation and culture are - the lousier the warriors were...

 

 
how about go to school and study a little on the romans? could that not be a good idea? ah and a little advice, quit Asterix and hollywood movies, they are obiusly not for you.
 
Have a good day.
 
 
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 02:14
Originally posted by Vamun Tianshu

Some of Rome's victories belong to the very barbarians they latter fought with,and were later overun with.Rome was one of the greatest empires in history,really depends on your depiction of great.I say,they were not great.It is just an opinion.Sure,they established an administrative system still used today,and were one of the great civilizations.To me,the romans were no more than barbarious,arrogant fools.

 
to much asterix and hollywood? you know a book sometime does miracles
 
 
They enslaved thousands of people,because either they did't believe in their religion,because they were pagans.Sure,I know many Empires had slaves,but these guys took it to the next level.Its basically their fault the founder of Christianity died,they had gladitorial combats,killed and crucified those who didn't believe in what they believed,also their church was corrupt.
 
 
wow you are mixing to many thing.
 
First romans were pagans and they didnt persecute people with  another religion, actually they were some of the most tollerant people the ancient world did ever saw. When a people was conquered theyr gods became part of rome.
 
 
Slaves? everybody used slaves back then. Funny, why others can, but the Romans not?
 
Jesus died on the cross because he had to, it was part of the prophecy. Blame god, not the romans.
 
corruption and backstabbing? that happen EVERYWHERE on the planet! the romans were not immune, but the same was also for others (and corruption happens also nowadays).
 
 
Maybe to many they were great,but to me,they were not.
 
ok...your opinion.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Mumbloid - 27-Jun-2007 at 02:39
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 02:45
Originally posted by J.Caesar

However three legions was not anywhere near the biggest loss for the Romans..not even close! Also, there is question now that perhaps the Romans really didn`t loose but fought the Germans off.(albeit great loss of lifeand stolen standards)
 
I agree that the Teutonforest is a giant exageration. First it was a ambush, not a battle, second it was a small loss (only three legions) but Varus died in the battle, so the ambush was not insignificant.
 

Dan Peterson, American Army, historian, went over there investigating. He seen the sites and by analyzing burial mounds(Romans) there were even animals buried. How could the Roamns have had time to bury the dead?
 
but I know under the office of Emperor Tiberius the romans went back in Germany, defeated the Germans, took prisoners and tributes, and buried their dead from Teutonforest.
 
Anyway i wont be surprised (but i will be dissapointed by the official history) if it is just a nationalistic exageration made by some gloryhungry german historystudent.
 
 

 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 07:18
Originally posted by J.Caesar

Romans poor warriors! You are so off base. Only Hannibal and the Persians really made Rome pay.


Brennus made them pay too. The anniversary of the Battle of Allia was "the Black Day" in Rome, and all shops were closed ... a national day of mourning right to the end of the imperial period ...

Cimbri and Teutones made Rome pay. Three massive defeats over a decade in which the horde wandered at will through the provinces. At one point the horde was camped near the passes to the Alps, and Rome had no manpower left - fortunately they did not cross over and Rome was able to put them down later.

And what about Pyrrhus? I guess you just forgot to mention him too?

Lots of people made the Romans pay. Fortunately for the Romans, they could afford to; a German horde defeated in the field was gone forever, since it was an entire peoples on the move, but a Roman army defeated on the field was no big deal; they could replace it in a few years.

Romans were not especially good fighters. Not terribly bad, but not especially great either. They didn't get as far as they did because their soldiers were invincible Goliaths or anything. They had excellent logistics, roads, brilliant tactics and strategy, good organization and discipline, and often many allies. And they knew how to lose a battle, but win the war. "Rome ... takes a licking but keeps on ticking". The Romans themselves always attributed their success to "stamina" as opposed to strength, and they didn't mean the stamina of the individual man.


Mow how could there be less than 1000 Roman deaths(many recorded accounts) and why was this battle not glorfied! Answer mentioned by Petersen. Trurh is the Germans were pitiful warriors and only attcked the Roamns when they knew they were vulnerable or trapped and when they had great numbers on their side.


Oh, c'mon. Waiting for an advantage of numbers or terrain or positioning was a Roman specialty.

You're talking about Vercellae, which was a brilliant Roman victory indeed. But the people they were fighting weren't poor warriors. They had defeated Roman armies in three previous major engagements that, at one point, left Rome with no military to speak of. This was the Cimbri-Teutones horde that had wandered Roman territories at will for the last decade, unopposed, because until Vercellae, the Romans couldn't manage to defeat them.

The CIMBRI and TEUTONES, barbarous nations from Northern Europe, were threatening the frontiers of Italy. Already the Roman armies had met with five successive defeats at their hands on the banks of the Rhone. Eighty thousand Romans and forty thousand camp followers are said to have fallen in these battles. Had the barbarians at this moment chosen to enter Italy, the destruction of Rome would have been a certain result. Fortunately, they turned to the Pyrenees, and, sweeping over the mountains, overran for a season the province of Spain ... The barbarians, on their return from Spain, separated their forces, the Cimbri marching around the northern foot of the Alps towards Noricum, with the intention of invading Italy from that quarter, while the Teutones remained in Gaul.

As the latter advanced, Marius took up his position in a fortified camp near AQUAE SEXTIAE (Aix). He allowed the enemy to march past him, and then followed cautiously, waiting for a favorable opportunity to fall upon them. In the battle that followed, the barbarians were no match for the drilled legionaries, who were irresistible.


http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_pennellhistoryofrome23.htm

That's how the Teutones were defeated. The Cimbri were defeated at Vercellae, but at Aquae Sextiae, the Romans had waited for the enemy to split his forces, secretly followed them, and then fell on them from behind in an ambush. But it's the Germans who wait for their enemy to be vulnerable or trapped before attacking? Gimme a break!

Edited by edgewaters - 27-Jun-2007 at 07:29
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 07:26
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by J.Caesar

Romans poor warriors! You are so off base. Only Hannibal and the Persians really made Rome pay.


Brennus made them pay too. The anniversary of the Battle of Allia was "the Black Day" in Rome, and all shops were closed ... a national day of mourning right to the end of the imperial period ...
 
made the romans pay for what?

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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 07:34
Originally posted by Mumbloid

made the romans pay for what?


Quintus Fabius killed one of his chieftains in an argument, and then the Romans sent him a nasty letter when he asked them to hand over him and his family. So Brennus made them pay.
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 07:40
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Mumbloid

made the romans pay for what?


Quintus Fabius killed one of his chieftains in an argument, and then the Romans sent him a nasty letter when he asked them to hand over him and his family. So Brennus made them pay.
 
so in the end the romans were legittimate to kick the celts out of italy and conquer Gaul and britain! Dead
 
 
 
 
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 08:39
Originally posted by Mumbloid

so in the end the romans were legittimate to kick the celts out of italy and conquer Gaul and britain!


Well, not cause of Brennus. Gauls and Britons probably didn't have a clue who Brennus was, or really care. Celts didn't exist, in the Celtic mind - it was a label the Romans used to describe a whole lot of different peoples, a wide brush. The Gauls, and certainly the Britons, would have regarded Brennus as a foreigner - less alien than the Romans perhaps, but alien nonetheless. Attacking the Britons because of Brennus would be really weird - the Romans themselves didn't even seem to consider the Britons to be Celtic, and the Britons were utterly unlike the peoples under Brennus. They had chariots and druids, for instance, which Brennus didn't have.

The Romans were justified in taking Gaul and Britain because the Celts and Britons had turned into panzies by that time, not to mention they both invited the Romans in. The Britons who hadn't become panzies - the Picts and Scoti - managed to show Antonine Pius and Severus the door.

Edited by edgewaters - 27-Jun-2007 at 08:48
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 08:47
Some that attacked Rome complained about issues like slavery. That people from their area had been captured in large numbers by Roman slave traders did nothing to enhance the Roman reputation. Then there was the convoluted issue of hostages. Most historians don't get into this topic for it was not very well documented. Briefly both sides exchanged high class families as a gesture of friendship, but when at war their lives were forfeit.
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  Quote erton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 10:25
...to have illyrians with your part in battle always is a privilege...APPIAN
I think Roman had much illyrians warriors and much illyrian emperors
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  Quote retaxis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Jun-2007 at 11:19
I do not know much about Roman history in comparison with Asian history but i am thinking what countries did the Roman's conquer? Who did they have to fight against to be named such great warriors. I know back two thousand years ago there wasn't many Euro nations such as France/Germany/Poland/Britan etc etc. So honestly was it just a few Barbarians that the Romans had to conquer?

Compared with the East the Chinese fought technologically equal or advanced civilizations such as the Korean's and the Vietnamese and the Japanese.

P.S Hitler isn't the biggest murderer, i believe Chairman Mao is. Deaths over his rule is estimated between 50-100mil whereas Hitler is ~20 from what i heard. I can most definitely be wrong.
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 07:39
double post....sorry I have a crappy connection.
 

 


Edited by Mumbloid - 28-Jun-2007 at 07:47
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  Quote Mumbloid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 07:46
Originally posted by retaxis

I do not know much about Roman history in comparison with Asian history but i am thinking what countries did the Roman's conquer? Who did they have to fight against to be named such great warriors. I know back two thousand years ago there wasn't many Euro nations such as France/Germany/Poland/Britan etc etc. So honestly was it just a few Barbarians that the Romans had to conquer? 
 
nonono, first the barbarians were not savage homeless people, some of them had wery florish culture (like the celts) who could be compared to the greek preclassical time.
 Let's not forget the Punic wars won by Rome, Karthago was actually more advanced that Rome.
Here can you also see the power of Rome, who amazingly even in condition of strong inferiority and outdated, managed not only to recover the tenological gap, but also to rival economically.
 Look at Scipio, the man who defeated Hannibal (one of the greatest commander ever) and turn the city of karthago in a parking lot.
The Romans managed always outsmart their enemyes and to assimilate them. Sometimes even adopting they way of warfare (as Scipio did when he defeated Hannibal).
 


 


Edited by Mumbloid - 28-Jun-2007 at 19:51
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 08:02
Originally posted by Mumbloid

]The Romans managed always outsmart their enemyes and to assimilate them. Sometimes even adopting they way of warfare (as Scipio did when he defeated Hannibal).


This was probably the greatest Roman strength of all. Even the gladius, chainmail, the scutum, the Roman helmet, and the use of light javelins in battle were all borrowed (from the Celts, in these cases). They were not afraid to borrow things from other cultures that worked, and they mixed and combined things they borrowed in new and unique ways. Most other cultures were too rigid to be good at adapting and adopting foreign innovations. Some were not even able to implement their own innovations as universally or as well as the Romans.

Edited by edgewaters - 28-Jun-2007 at 08:06
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  Quote elenos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 09:13

I agree edgewaters, the Romans were eclectic when it came to weapons of war and inventive as well. However when it came to treatment of animals, as needed in cavalry horses, they remained behind.

They had religious objections to considering horses as intelligent beings; all animals had no soul and their soul made the difference between man and beast. The Roman army bridle remained too restrictive so the beast could be easily checked, a tightly reined horses head also looked splendid in parades. Most of the cavalry remained foreign mercenaries for they were considered as being nearer to the animals themselves.   

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  Quote calvo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Jun-2007 at 12:31

In my humble opinion, the Romans had one of the most sofisticated fighting forces in the pre-modern period.

Of course, the Roman army evolved through several stages: from a citizen miltia consisting of part-time conscripts to a fully-professional institution by the end of the Republic and the Principate.
Following the 3rd century it began a slow but constant decline, a process closely linked to the economic recession and social inestability of the empire itself; but the army's prestige was not only defined by its victories, but by its organization, tactics, and flexibility to adapt to the times.
 
The professional Roman army in the late republic-early empire was not a numerically-superior force: there were between 300,000 and 400,000 men in total including legionaries, auxilaries, pretorians, and the navy - out of an empire engulfing the entire Meditteranean with a population between 50 and 80 million.
Through tactics, discipline, and organization, they were capable of defeating barbarian forces several times stronger while suffering relatively few casualties.
Maybe the individual soldier was not as tough, strong, or aggressive as a German or Celt; but their ability to fight together as a group, maintiaing formation and rotating ranks in the midst of an engagement made them a supreme war machine.
 
The army was also a full-time career of at least 25 years where enlisted soldiers aimed to rise to the ranks of specialists, NCOs, and if lucky enough, centurions.
 
Much of the organization of modern armies had been inspired by the Roman Legion.
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