Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Popes, Patriarchs, Turks and Religious Repression

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>
Author
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Popes, Patriarchs, Turks and Religious Repression
    Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 14:47

In several days Bartholomew I, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople will receive Pope Benedict XVI, pope of elder Rome. History has seen many differences damage the relationship between the Latin West and the Greek East. These differences have ranged from the theological to the ecclesiological; from those of jurisdiction to those of mere protocol.

The differences that should be called to mind on this historic occasion, however, are the respective abilities of each of these ecclesiastics to administer their respective sees. While Pope Benedict XVI has not only freedom but governmental power, the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew languishes in an atmosphere of utter religious intolerance. The article below lists some of the crimes, which I will summarize.
 
 
1) The Turkish government limits the pool of candidates that may be elected Ecumenical Patriarch, with the result that, "in the not so distant future the Ecumenical Patriarchate may not be able to elect a Patriarch."
 
2) The Ecumenical Patriarchate is not allowed to own property. This has resulted in a ruthless policy of confiscation which shall be elaborated on below.
 
3) "The Turkish government closed the patriarchate's seminary, the Theological School of Halki, in 1971, and has refused, despite numerous requests, to reopen it."
 
4) In defiance of the Lausanne Treaty of 1923, the Turkish government refuses to recognize the Ecumenical Patriarchate as a legal entity.
 
5) The Turkish government blocks work permits for non-Turkish citizens who wish to work at the Ecumenical Patriarchate, such that the 10 Greek clergymen, one American layman and one British layman now working at the Phanar are doing so illegally, and must leave the country every three months to renew their tourist visas.
 
6) "The Turkish government also determines who may teach in the elementary schools that serve the Orthodox community, and enforces a six-year 'approval' process to control the flow of books to Orthodox school libraries."
 
 
In reference to the prohibition on owning property, the Turkish state has disgraced itself, and proved that in its current form it is completely incapable of making even a pretense of endorsing religious freedom. It has confiscated schools, monasteries, residential property, orphanages, and cemeteries without compensation.
 
If it were not for the brutal, cruel, and disempowering nature of these policies they would be laughable. I find it impossible to think that every single Turkish citizen endorses such blatant religious repression; until fair voices are heard, however, these brutal, immoral policies will continue. Every fair thinking individual should publicly repudiate these attempts to destroy religious freedom in Turkey, or wherever else they are implemented.
 
Recently the Pope quoted a Byzantine emperor in a discussion of Islam, and thereby ignited a firestorm of protest. All me to quote a Byzantine ecclesiastic, who, I hope, shall prove a bit less of a contentious figure:
 
Injustice, therefore, is and stands, regardless to whomever acted upon or performed against, as still injustice.  The unjust person is never relieved of the responsibility of these unjust acts under the pretext that the injustice done is done against a heterodox and not to a believer."
--Metrophanes III (1520-1580)--
 
Metrophanes, incidentally, was the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople; the Turkish people would do well to heed his words.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 26-Nov-2006 at 14:48
Back to Top
Ponce de Leon View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar
Lonce De Peon

Joined: 11-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2967
  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 16:44
nice 2 see ya back Akolouthos. I never even thought about Turkish suppression of religion. But trying to stop Christ from entering people's lives is a crime against humanity itself. Hopefully this oppression will be stopped
Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 21:14

But trying to stop Christ from entering people's lives is a crime against humanity itself.


The turkish government is not trying to stop Christ from entering people's lives, and I don't think they could stop Christ even if they wanted to.

That being said, all the turkish government seems to be doing is not allowing the Orthodox church to enter into Turkish politics. It might be a double standard but that is the way this PREDOMINANTLY muslim country chooses to conduct itself.

I don't agree that religious schools should be closed but this isn't a recent occurance, the Ottomans themselves always tried to elevate muslim interests above christian one's and for good reason too. Do I believe that the Patriarchate should have a similar arrangement as the Vatican does, maybe, but I don't know all the history behind the relationship of the Turks and the Patriarchate. Why doesn't Greece offer a parcel of land for the Patriarchate to operate in exile. The pope's did so in Avignon to escape hostile rulers of Italy, why can't that be an option?
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 23:53
unfortunatly this is more about politics than religion. This is a twisted way to punish greeks for our bad history and to rid any expression of hellenism in turkey.

Mind you all relgions (expressions) are supressed, some way in turkey.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 01:14
That being said, all the turkish government seems to be doing is not allowing the Orthodox church to enter into Turkish politics. It might be a double standard but that is the way this PREDOMINANTLY muslim country chooses to conduct itself.
well I did not know greece is predominantly muslim. Because They also choose leaders of greece muslims.
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 02:25
That being said, all the turkish government seems to be doing is not allowing the Orthodox church to enter into Turkish politics. It might be a double standard but that is the way this PREDOMINANTLY muslim country chooses to conduct itself.
actaully the probelm with this quote is that i dont think the church wants to enter turkish politics. turkish politics is entering orthodoxy


Edited by Leonidas - 27-Nov-2006 at 02:29
Back to Top
malizai_ View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan

Alcinous

Joined: 05-Feb-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2252
  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 05:41
Most turks are muslims so i guess your christ is already in their hearts.Tongue
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 06:18
Originally posted by JanusRook

That being said, all the turkish government seems to be doing is not allowing the Orthodox church to enter into Turkish politics. It might be a double standard but that is the way this PREDOMINANTLY muslim country chooses to conduct itself.
 
I'm sorry, but that is absurd. The issue is not politics, the issue is religious freedom--the ability to freely practice one's religion.
 
I don't agree that religious schools should be closed but this isn't a recent occurance, the Ottomans themselves always tried to elevate muslim interests above christian one's and for good reason too. Do I believe that the Patriarchate should have a similar arrangement as the Vatican does, maybe, but I don't know all the history behind the relationship of the Turks and the Patriarchate.
 
Well, I am certainly glad we can all agree that schools shouldn't be shut down because of the religious practices of their faculty and students. Can we also condemn confiscation of property, meddling in the internal politics of what should be a private entity, and selective persecution
 
The last thing the Ecumenical Patriarch wants is a Vatican style arrangement. Despite the claims of Turkish politicians and polemicists, he has no desire to operate a state within--or surrounded by--a state.
 
Why doesn't Greece offer a parcel of land for the Patriarchate to operate in exile. The pope's did so in Avignon to escape hostile rulers of Italy, why can't that be an option?
 
You know what is sad? I've actually wondered this myself.
 
The task before us, however, is neither to make excuses for the persecution, nor to try to figure out how to work around it. The task before every freedom loving member of this global community--as well as the citizens of the Turkish nation--is to cry out, condemn, and put an end to this abhorrent policy of brutal religious repression.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 27-Nov-2006 at 06:22
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 06:57
Originally posted by Leonidas

actaully the probelm with this quote is that i dont think the church wants to enter turkish politics. turkish politics is entering orthodoxy


Unlike many other countries where secularism is considered t be the strict seperation of church and state, in Turkey is viewed as the complete domination of the state over the mosque. The Turkish state is interfering with Islam all the time.
Back to Top
Akolouthos View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 24-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2091
  Quote Akolouthos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 07:00
Unlike many other countries where secularism is considered t be the strict seperation of church and state, in Turkey is viewed as the complete domination of the state over the mosque. The Turkish state is interfering with Islam all the time.
 
But can you honestly say that the Turkish government's interference with Islam comes anywhere close to the systematic persecution that the Ecumenical Patriarchate is constantly subject to? We are talking about something more than a general attitude toward religion here.
 
-Akolouthos


Edited by Akolouthos - 27-Nov-2006 at 07:02
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 07:11

well, You are half-right, Turkey goverment is trying to destroy islam, and trying to create an islam acording to her wish.(banning weil,ext.)

 

Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:07

actaully the probelm with this quote is that i dont think the church wants to enter turkish politics. turkish politics is entering orthodoxy


But as I understand it the Eastern Church has always been in a power struggle with the Emperor of Byzantium? The Ottoman merely took over that role as heirs-by-force of the Roman Empire, and all I see is the Turkish state taking the role after the Ottomans. Is that a good summary?



well, You are half-right, Turkey goverment is trying to destroy islam, and trying to create an islam acording to her wish.(banning weil,ext.)


Okay, I think I get it. The nation of Turkey is trying to mold a purely Turkish nationalistic mindset. Where the people speak the turkish language, observe the turkish holidays and worship a turkish religion. Therefore the Turkish government has issues with a Greek Orthodox Church operating within their borders. Perhaps if it was changed to the Turkish Orthodox Church everyone could be friends....okay I was kidding on that.


Most turks are muslims so i guess your christ is already in their hearts.


Christ is in everyone's heart Malizai. Tongue

Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:15
The patriarchate's website for those interested:

http://www.patriarchate.org/
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:38
Okay, I think I get it. The nation of Turkey is trying to mold a purely Turkish nationalistic mindset. Where the people speak the turkish language, observe the turkish holidays and worship a turkish religion. Therefore the Turkish government has issues with a Greek Orthodox Church operating within their borders. Perhaps if it was changed to the Turkish Orthodox Church everyone could be friends....okay I was kidding on that.
 
are you joking? hmmm Infact you are right. what you said is true. Turkey let a christian group to built a church.
 
Just guess which group is this?
 
It is turkish orthodox church. I should add this church is more nationalist than me.


Edited by Mortaza - 27-Nov-2006 at 11:41
Back to Top
JanusRook View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar
Ad Maiorem Dei Gloriam

Joined: 03-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2419
  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 11:57
Lol, wel looks like you have me Mortaza there is a Turkish Orthodox church...

Of course it's a splinter church and it's founding Patriarch had been excommunicated but it does look like they have the approval of the Turkish government.

AFAIK, most of the christian turks though remain under the Patriarch of Constantinople. Since the following of this group is under a thousand people.
Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 12:03
well, I have my suspect about follower of patriarch.Infact It is not more numbered than 2000-3000(greek.)
 
Armenians have their church, and It looks like turks have their churchs too.
 
the Patriarch of Constantinople is a symbolic power, nothing more. That is why Turkey does not like it.
 
Also I should agree with them. Who would like someone who is important for 250 million christian. Specially inside of a muslim city.
 
But I think limiting their right is discrimination, not dislike.
 
Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Ustad-i Azam

Joined: 16-Jul-2005
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1379
  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 23:29
I wonder why the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Orthodoxy must be placed in Istanbul, where is a city of the people who are %99 percent Muslims. Once Ataturk tried to terminate it but didn't manage it because of the fact that the Western powers -especially England- wanted it to stay in Istanbul for some political reasons, which were quite understandable in the British view. But what do the Greeks who are truly faithful believers think of the existence of the Patriarchate in a muslim city? Wouldn't it be much more beautiful If the Patriarchate were placed in Athens, where is a glorious Greek city with full of human civilization from the deep past to the present.
 
Why Istanbul? A challenge for what? This must be called "politics" otherwise It would be an awfully childish thing.


Edited by The Hidden Face - 27-Nov-2006 at 23:36
Back to Top
Jazz View Drop Down
Baron
Baron
Avatar

Joined: 29-Mar-2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 410
  Quote Jazz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 02:35
Originally posted by The Hidden Face

I wonder why the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Orthodoxy must be placed in Istanbul, where is a city of the people who are %99 percent Muslims. Once Ataturk tried to terminate it but didn't manage it because of the fact that the Western powers -especially England- wanted it to stay in Istanbul for some political reasons, which were quite understandable in the British view. But what do the Greeks who are truly faithful believers think of the existence of the Patriarchate in a muslim city? Wouldn't it be much more beautiful If the Patriarchate were placed in Athens, where is a glorious Greek city with full of human civilization from the deep past to the present.
 
Why Istanbul? A challenge for what? This must be called "politics" otherwise It would be an awfully childish thing.


Just keep in mind, historically (after the 1453 Conquest of Constantinople), the Muslim population of Istanbul was rarely above 60%. 

The 1923 Treaty of Lausanne stipulated that the Ecumenical Patriarchate remain in Istanbul, probably using one context that at the time it was estimated there were over 200,000 Orthodox (mostly Greek) still in the city.  I'm sure it was not expected that the Muslim population percentage would reach close to the 99% level it is today.  The Christian percentage declined after 1923, with a big exodus after the 1955 pogrom.
Back to Top
The Hidden Face View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Ustad-i Azam

Joined: 16-Jul-2005
Location: Mexico
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1379
  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 02:58
It seems that my post needs to be more clear. I was talking about the present time. And It should also be noted that the Turkish side claims that the modern day Patriarchate has been established for the orthodox minority of the Republic Of Turkey, not for an ecumenical dreaming.
 
But anyway, I'd be glad If my post is considered in the present day conditions.
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 04:26
well if Jerusalam become 99% jewish, does make the al asqua mosque less muslim? No. Despite politics and control, nothing can change the significance of that spot in the minds of muslims. Like wise nothing can change the significance of the patriach.

the patriach has been the ecumenical leader of the church before the turkish presence and no present or future government (greek or turkish) on this earth can take that title and its meaning away. Not while the church exists in any other corner of the globe. Ignoring, denying or stopping that seat in The City will not change this reality for the orthodox faithfull inside or outside The City.



Edited by Leonidas - 28-Nov-2006 at 04:29
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 6>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.140 seconds.