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Europeans Were 1st Americans? BBC 2 Special

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  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Europeans Were 1st Americans? BBC 2 Special
    Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 20:47
Originally posted by Paul

These girls show no native American traits whatsoever, they appear to be 100% European,
 
 
 
Pinguin, right girl looks like the half Eritrian half Swedish girl below.
 


Edited by Hellios - 25-Feb-2007 at 20:47
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 21:03
Common Hellios:
 
When Chileans go to live abroad suffer discrimination because they are "indians". In Sweden they call Latinos the "Little Black heads", because almost all of us have dark hair!!
 
How suddenly we are force to redifine ourselves as "Europeans"? Big%20smile
 
Nope.
 
We could have most of our genetics comming from places like Spain, Italy and France (quite few from Nordic countries) ...
 
But our backbone and our heart is NATIVE AMERICAN!!!
 
We don't need Europe. We are Chileans, and proud to be Wink
 
Omar Vega (Alias Pinguin)
 
 
 
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 21:38
Originally posted by Hellios

Originally posted by Paul

These girls show no native American traits whatsoever, they appear to be 100% European,
 
 
 
Pinguin, right girl looks like the half Eritrian half Swedish girl below.
 
 
You are right Hellios. The Swedes are definantely more native American than the Chillians,


Edited by Paul - 25-Feb-2007 at 21:40
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2007 at 22:13
Well people in Sweden has a lot of Asian as well.
 
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 03:41
Originally posted by pinguin

Common Hellios:
 
When Chileans go to live abroad suffer discrimination because they are "indians". In Sweden they call Latinos the "Little Black heads", because almost all of us have dark hair!!
 
 
 
Again you show your tremendous experience with Europe. You're probably thinking of the term "svartskalle", meaning "black head", which is a racist and very derogatory term and not widely used. Latinos are mostly refered to as "latinamerikaner" or simply "latinos". "Black head" refers to skin colour, not hair, and it was first used about Italian and Greek guest workers. When used, it can mean anyone with darker skin than Scandinavian people (or rather, darker than themselves; eg some people from the Middle East use it about Africans).
 
Originally posted by pinguin

But our backbone and our heart is NATIVE AMERICAN!!!
 
 
Doesn't sound like the Chileans I know.
 
For the record I've only had positive experience with Chileans in real life, you're the only one who gets on my nerves Tongue


Edited by Styrbiorn - 26-Feb-2007 at 03:42
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 07:50
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

... 
Again you show your tremendous experience with Europe. You're probably thinking of the term "svartskalle", meaning "black head", which is a racist and very derogatory term and not widely used. Latinos are mostly refered to as "latinamerikaner" or simply "latinos". "Black head" refers to skin colour, not hair, and it was first used about Italian and Greek guest workers. When used, it can mean anyone with darker skin than Scandinavian people (or rather, darker than themselves; eg some people from the Middle East use it about Africans).
 
 
Yes. I was thinking about that, but Chileans that had lived in Europe -that cry a lot here when they are back home- say all people of brown hair and not lilly-rose-white receive that term. Not only Africans. Besides, not only Nordics use those terms against Latinos, Spaniards do as well.
 
Anyways, we have our owns when they come here Big%20smile
 
Originally posted by pinguin

But our backbone and our heart is NATIVE AMERICAN!!!
Originally posted by Styrbiorn

...  
Doesn't sound like the Chileans I know.
For the record I've only had positive experience with Chileans in real life, you're the only one who gets on my nerves Tongue
 
Most Chileans convinced themselves they are "pure" Europeans. Some inferiority complex... you know. They need a cure LOL. Particularly with the ones the live in a host country abroad.
 
Now, I agree. We we are nice people.... in general. Someone has to be the exception LOLWink
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 26-Feb-2007 at 07:52
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 17:09
"In the DNA profile of the Ichigua Native American tribe he identified a . Instead it dated to Solutrean times. Wallace's genetic timelines show the Ice Age prompted a number of migrations from Europe to America. It looks highly likely that the Solutreans were one".(Taken from the given article)
 
I am not the expert of the DNA technology, but had the DNA of Western European  had changed from Ice age to middle age. How did the expert ensure that DNA from the tribes in Great Lake link to European of the Ice age.If there were not much changes,can I say their DNA from some lost Vikings .I read a book, it state that in Minnesota, the region of great lake, a group of Viking had been lost there, they married with the local  native.
 
I just do not understand, anyone explain, thank you
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 17:20
15.000 years is not such large period of time to make all genetical markers mutate.
 
The big problem for this theory is to show those markers were not introduced in the tested individuals AFTER Contact or in Viking times.
 
Finally, if they are really ice age "European" markers, it is likely they entered the Americas by the Bering Strait along all the rest of immigrants.
 
Just picking markers at random does not show much at all.
 
Pinguin


Edited by pinguin - 13-Mar-2007 at 17:21
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 21:59
From what I understand, there are 4 main mtDNA Haplogroups in the Americas. All of which are traced from East Asia. Then there's a fifth one, Halpogroup X, found in Europe and so far not in any Eurasian populations. It's also found in higher numbers in the North East North America among the Algonquian people.
Add that with archeological studies like the clovis where they found that the flint knapping technique of the Solutrean people is the same, then you can see the possibility, because you now have DNA and archeological evidence that are two seperate things but match one location.
 
When I read up on X at wikipedia, apearantly it has made it as far south as North Western Brazil. But after the Algonquian peoples 25% mtDNA, the rest of the Natives peoples drop 15% and below among those that have it.
To me, it shows a strong ancestry for Native americans, but for you pinguin, it almost seems like your insulted. I just don't understand why. Those that left aren't modern day European's ancestors.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 22:08
I don't discard that the famous X marker could have enter by the Bering strait. That marker in particular is very widespread, it is just that the frequencies in Asia are low TODAY. But that does not mean in the past the situation was the same. Besides, "caucasoid" tribes very likely were in Asia as well in the past time, and certain remains have been found. Even more, the "x" marker is not caucasian only.
 
I don't feel insulted. It is just I get upset when some newpapers put a title like "Ice age Columbus crossed the ices from Europe in a canoe" because THAT is not true.
 
Pinguin
 
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 11:50
"Halpogroup X, found in Europe and so far not in any Eurasian populations. It's also found in higher numbers in the North East North America among the Algonquian people. '
 
Which period of Europe?
Found in middle aged and today Europe? Or  only in the skeleton of Europe in the ice age. but not the middle age or today European. If the former, the theory of ice age columbus  can not be proved, since might be Vikings or other unknown European explorers gave to them, If the latter,
then the theory can be proved
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 12:03
"Add that with archeological studies like the clovis where they found that the flint knapping technique of the Solutrean people is the same, then you can see the possibility"
 
The scholars stated that the migration took part on the floating ice, then why it was necessary migrating from Europe to America, why not Vice versa,other clues suggesting that it was migrating from Europe to America and I have missed.
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 19:31
Which period of Europe?
Found in middle aged and today Europe? Or  only in the skeleton of Europe in the ice age. but not the middle age or today European. If the former, the theory of ice age columbus  can not be proved, since might be Vikings or other unknown European explorers gave to them, If the latter,
then the theory can be proved
Which period? The date for the X crossing to the Americas is 30,000-15000 bc. Thats just the people crossing, how long have they been in Europe? I'm not sure. But with the DNA that'd match the Solutrean populations and their flint knapping technique being found in the Americas, you can put two and two together. More proof can be shown in that the genetics are stronger towards North Eastern Atlantic and then seem to mellow out when they go west and south.
The scholars stated that the migration took part on the floating ice, then why it was necessary migrating from Europe to America, why not Vice versa,other clues suggesting that it was migrating from Europe to America and I have missed.
The simple fact no one was their before 30,000-15000 bc. But we do know that X came up from North Africa, the Near East, and Europe. Thats where it has been found. It hasn't been found yet in Central or Eastern Asia like the other four Haplogroups, A, B, C, and D, which are the majority of the Native Americans.
 
It's believe they took boats across, but for the reason that they were hunter fishers. So they'd use the water to migrate as they understood the ice sheet had not food to offer. The water was plentiful for food. The ice sheets weren't moving much like you think of hundreds of ice bergs, it was bacily a barren land. And anyone attempting to cross it would obviously die. Odds are it did recede during the summer months, if I had to guess anyways, but not so far that it'd bring them far north. It was in the ice age.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 21:21

Boats from where? Not from Europe.

If the famous X markers is really more than smoke, It is more easy to believe that certain bands carrying it crossed Beringia. In ancient Asia there were some australoids and caucasoid peoples in there, besides mongoloids.
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 22:02
But the DNA is in higher numbers towards the North East, and lower numbers to the south as populations are father from the atlantic. They wouldn't be in a boat constantly either with the ice right by them and on top of that, the ice sheet acts as a perfect guide from Southern France where the Solutreans were to the North Eastern part of the US during the ice age. They pretty much lived off the sea life of that area.
Then you also have to add in the knapping technique that was from the Solutreans.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 22:11

North East? Ice age? in that case I bet you got Middle Age's Norse rather than neolythic French people.

 
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Mar-2007 at 22:36

What do Vikings have to do with the Ice Age?

While X is found in Europe today, it's mostly found in the Mediternanean peoples. But on top of that you can estimate the age of DNA because of changes, migration being one. The Sandinavians are also a Germanic people, lets not forget that.
Plus you can see the age of DNA. If it doesn't match later dates that come about migrations, then you know it's from a early people. There'd be barely any genetic drift, which Europe has mixed alot. Atleast this is what I understand from researching DNA. I mean we know Mitchondrial Eve lived 130,000 years ago and Y-Chromosomal Adam 60,000 years ago for example.


Edited by SearchAndDestroy - 14-Mar-2007 at 22:38
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 11:55
The most solid evdience should be  found like this, We have an ice aged skeleton which is found in North East America, we have a skeleton of neolythic French people  of  the same period, we test the Dna of the two skeleton, if the DNA was same , then we can prove . Do they do such research?
 
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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 13:08
This is a pretty new theory that is just starting to get acceptence and a look at. Most people just say it's impossible because everyone is stuck with the age old idea of the bering straight. The best they can do is look at the current populations. We know the X mtDNA is ancient and was found in the Solutrean peoples. If they migrated out of Europe before all the migrations, then they would have genetic changes. So the populations in the Americas have this DNA, plus DNA from the Asian peoples that came in later, which make up the majority of Natives by far. The DNA matches the Solutreans of the area without any latter outside influences, which means they didn't migrate through people, and didn't mix with the Europeans that came to the area later. To do so, I'd guess they'd have to move Westward which the theory says.
Like said, their is also the archeological evidence too with the flint knapping technique. There are actual proffessioanl Flint Knappers, or scientist or historians I guess you could call them who study these techniques, and have concluded the matches of the two.
 
I'm no expert on genetics, but I've been reading up on it because I like to read about migrations, and study up on evolution. And as far as I can tell, the DNA would have to not match the Europeans of today, or the middle ages for this to be true. It's a ancient European peoples, the ones that stayed are the ancestors of modern Europeans, the ones that left would be the ancestors of the Natives.
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  Quote tommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2007 at 13:21
Then was it possible in ancient time, in Asia, especially the mid Asia, one group moved to today France, one group moved to today North America.
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