Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Europeans Were 1st Americans? BBC 2 Special

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>
Author
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Europeans Were 1st Americans? BBC 2 Special
    Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 04:41
Yes, I know. That's a pretty idiotic idea, indeed.
Do you know anthropologists confusse races as a matter of routine when they only has bones?
 
In fact, some foreign "scientists" claim the Yaganas of Austral chile are "Australoids". As far as I can see, they have no difference with the rest of natives, and they look closer to East Asians or Japaneses.
 
Besides 35-40.000 is TOO OLD.
 
Those are the kind of "news" that make people laugh about some Brazilian scientists.
 
Penguin
 
 
Back to Top
JuMong View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 03:10
The Brits haven't been the same since they lost the Revolutionary War.

Their sense of overcompensating for the loss of their former colony is both palpable and pathetic.



Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 11:04
I remember watching a show about Europeans moving to the East coast during the Ice Age. Part of the reason they did the research was because they found European styled tools of the Ice Age in the US through archaeological digs. They said the reason they would have gone on the long journey is due to food shortages and would have followed the Ice that went from France all the way to the Americas.
But the way they talked about it, if I remember correctly, made it sound like that there was a significant enough population to really contribute their gene's to future generations. Maybe I can find the show online, it was on the Discovery Channel.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 11:15

Pseudohistory has a lot more public that anthropology and history.

They keep inventing "discoverers of the America" by the dozen.
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 14:27
New unexplained things appear, so new questions are asked. History doesan't change itself, but keeps giving us different stories and clues.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 19:15
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

New unexplained things appear, so new questions are asked. History doesan't change itself, but keeps giving us different stories and clues.
 
 
The problem with outsiders is that they always look for "New Unexplained Things".
 
They are interested in the exotic. In showing that martians came to the Americas to teach the natives what they knew. In showing that Tiahuanaco is the Atlantis. And in showing the French came to the Americas before its people.
 
Why don't they start for what is already known?
 
If they need help, there are people than can colaborate.
 
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 19:25
In the case I was tyalking about, the Europeans didn't contribute to the population of the Americas, so what exactly are you worried about? It was a more recent find that the scientist explored and tried to explain. I wish I could find the show for you, but I can't even remember the name and can't seem to find information on it.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2007 at 19:49
I am not worried.
 
I know pretty well how it was the population of the Americas.
Recent genetic research has put the origen of the populations in East Asia, East Siberians and Mongolians are the people closely related to the Native Americas.
 
It make sense. Crossing the Atlantic in canoes doesn't.
 
Pinguin
 
 
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 11:00
Crossing the Bering Strait in connoes does? During the Ice Age the Atalntic also had a land/ice bridge that crossed the ocean and went far down. It's the samething and it's known Humans will go far out of their way in the worst conditions to explore new lands. It's really not far fetched.
 
And didn't I say in both posts that these people probably didn't contribute to the civilizations in the Americas, not even geneticly? I didn't even type up a long article, so are you just not even reading what I have to say and denying everything flat out because you don't like hearing it?
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Feb-2007 at 11:35
Well, I am skeptical about the land bridge from Europe, that's all.
 
It looks like Science Fiction to me.
 
 
Back to Top
JuMong View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 08-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 89
  Quote JuMong Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 02:56
Back to Top
Boreasi View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 15-Sep-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 300
  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 04:38
The indications and evidences of ancient "Caucasians" reaching America have grown steadily over the past century. Today there are more than some Norse and several Indian myths telling about it.  By now we have solid archaic and genetic evidence of relations between these continents, already in the period before the spread of agriculture.

As one may know we had agriculture starting to spread to North Africa, Europe and Trans-Caucasia already 9.000 years ago. A recent discovery of Mexican chili, being cultivated already 6.000 years ago, now adds yet another piece to the puzzle about the age of the Amerindian agriculturalists. Funny enough, but the more we learn about early American agriculturalists, the more their cultures parallel the ones known from the pre-historic Eurasia.

Sticking to the old version about the population of America seems to ignore the fact that this consept  - "Clovis first, out of Beringia" - is nothing but an EARLY interpretation of old facts.  Adding the new ones and reviewing the old ones - once again - is only to be expected - it the due cause of science.

Today we may considered the "Red Paint People" a historic reality. We might even get that to match with the several facts that have emerged about the Neolittic period of Europe and Asia.  Now we have yet another genetic survey that concern the spread of agriculture,  examining the percentage of "lactose-tolerance" in presetn populations. The study have been world-wide and shows that some populations are "all diary-consumers", while other populations don't have any such customs, habits or ABILITIES. Like the Chinese, Indo-Chinese and Australians, most Africans, most Mexican-Indian and all South-American Indians, that all show 95-99 % IN-tolerance. Which simply means that their genetic fabric has little or no adaption to milk-products.

On the other hand we have the northern populations of Eurasia and America. The highest percentage of tolerance are found in Denmark and Southern Sweden, where 95-99%  of the population are  "heavy milk-addicts". 

From this central area the lactose tolerance drops gradually - until it meets the "border-areas" described above. The point is that this basis of genetic evidence clearly states that North-west Europe have been a source of spread of agriculture in general - for a long time.

The philosophy and culture needed to develop an agricultural way of living have obviously spread from an originating culture. The Meso-American agriculture is obviously yet another adaption of the principles of agriculture.

Together with the incredible monuments - identical to the "Cretean Palaces" - found in Meso-America, the figurine of a "Norse Sailor"/"Roman Soldier" and identical stone-tools and rock-carvings from Paleolithic time - the evidence conclusively ties the old civilization of Meso-America to their contemporary Eurasians. A common source of genetic material ties the Neolithic Europeans to the ancient Mound-builders of North America.

What BBC is finally doing is just a broader and updated version of two prize-winning documentaries that were sent on Discovery Channel already 1991;
 
 



Edited by Boreasi - 20-Feb-2007 at 04:47
Be good or be gone.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 07:58

It is curious the effort so many Europeans have put to demostrate everything comes from Europe.

Yes, since the beginning you people have not accepted the Americas developed alone. First you talked about the lost tribes of Israel. Then you followed by the god-like white people that teach poor natives what they know. After you tried vikings, only to find out the impact of the norse in the Americas is nill. And what is now? Yes! The silliest theory of all: That Europeans came to the Americas in neolitical times swimming across the Atlantic.
 
When is your people going to wake up. When Europe is going to discover the Americas, at last?
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
SearchAndDestroy View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 15-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2728
  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Feb-2007 at 10:24

I've never really heard of all that above. Though I did here of a tribe that had members that were blonde haired blue eyes that was mixed in by stranded Vikings. But that there shows that it was only with one tribe and that Natives were already there thousands of years before.

By the pinquin, from what I've read about Europeans coming to America, they never say they started or brought civilization to the Natives or the continent. They painted a picture of the numbers being to small and didn't even exist long enough to share their tool making skills. So in no way did they steal the thunder of Native Americans if they did come, atleast the one I've either read or watched the show on.
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 09:50
Originally posted by pinguin

It is curious the effort so many Europeans have put to demostrate everything comes from Europe.

Yes, since the beginning you people have not accepted the Americas developed alone. First you talked about the lost tribes of Israel. Then you followed by the god-like white people that teach poor natives what they know. After you tried vikings, only to find out the impact of the norse in the Americas is nill. And what is now? Yes! The silliest theory of all: That Europeans came to the Americas in neolitical times swimming across the Atlantic.
 
When is your people going to wake up. When Europe is going to discover the Americas, at last?
 
 
 
This is becoming increasingly annoying. Who has said anything remotely similar to what you claim? You constantly keep putting words in other people's mouths. Are you trolling on purpose to see who looses control first or really being serious?
 
No one here, I repeat, no one, has claimed Europeans developed the culture or science of the Americas. Why do you keep making these conclusions?  The case here is that non-Asian DNA have been found, and now they try to find an explanation to why. Nothing more, nothing less. You seem to translate this into "Europeans try to proove they built the pyramid of the Sun". To make an analogy: if I'd say "my grandfather emigrated to America", you'll respond with accusing me of claiming personal credit for the moon landing. Try to get rid of this thinking. It's certainly not helping your cause.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 21-Feb-2007 at 09:51
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 10:10
Which cause?
Back to Top
Styrbiorn View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph


Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2810
  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 11:13
You tell me.
Back to Top
AyKurt View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 24-Mar-2005
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 236
  Quote AyKurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 14:50
Originally posted by red clay

Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000-36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations. To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.
 
Source- Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University
 
 
Hoplogroup X has been found among the Altay Turkic peoples in Southern Siberia.  Also the variant among the Altay Turks seems to be ancestral to the European and the N American variants.
 
 
Mitochondrial DNA Variation in the Aboriginal Populations of the Altai-Baikal Region: Implications for the Genetic History of North Asia and America

Abstract:

 
The discovery of mtDNA types common to Asians and Amerinds (types A, B, C, and D) forced investigators to search for those nations of Asia which, though not considered the ancestors of the Amerinds, have retained a close genetic resemblance with them. We collected samples and studied the gene pools of the Turkic-speaking nations of South Siberia: Altaians, Khakassians, Shorians, Tuvinians, Todjins, Tofalars, Sojots, as well as Mongolian-speaking Buryats. The data indicate that nearly all Turkic-speaking nations of Siberia and Central Asia, as well as the Buryats, have types A, B, C, and D in their gene pool. The highest total frequency of these types is observed in the Tuvinians and Sojots. They, as well as the Buryats, also have the lowest frequency of the europeoid types. The most mixed Asian-Europeoid gene pool examined turned out to be that of the Shorians. An important finding was the presence of type X in the Altaians, which had not yet been detected in Asia. As shown by computer analysis, this DNA sequence is not a late European admixture. Rather, the Altai variant X is ancient and can be close to the ancestral form of the variants of contemporary Europeans and Amerinds. The presented results prove that of all nations in Asia, the Turkic-speaking nations living between Altai and Baikal along the Sayan mountains are genetically closest to the Amerinds.
 
 
 
The Presence of Mitochondrial Haplogroup X in Altaians from South Siberia
 
 

A striking example of the presence in American Indians of genotypes not from haplogroups AD is haplogroup X. This haplogroup represents a minor founding lineage that is restricted in distribution to northern Amerindian groups, including the Ojibwa, the Nuu-Chah-Nulth, the Sioux, and the Yakima, as well as the Na Denespeaking Navajo (Brown et al. 1998). Unlike haplogroups AD, haplogroup X is also found at low frequencies of ~4% in western Eurasian populations. Despite a shared consensus RFLP haplotype, substantial genetic differences exist between the American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs. Phylogenetic analysis and coalescence estimates for American Indian and European haplogroup X mtDNAs exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in American Indians is due to recent European admixture. They also clearly indicate that the two branches/subgroups are distantly related to each other and that considerable genetic substructure exists within both groups (Brown et al. 1998).

Haplogroup X is remarkable in that it has not been found in Asians, including Siberians, suggesting that it may have come to the Americas via a Eurasian migration. The virtual absence of haplogroup X in eastern and northern Asia raises the possibility that some American Indian founders were of European ancestry. In that case, as it has been proposed, haplogroup X was brought to America by the eastward migration of an ancestral white population, of which no trace has so far been found in the mtDNA gene pool of modern Siberian/eastern Asian populations (Brown et al. 1998).

To extend the survey of Asian mtDNAs for the presence of haplogroup X, we screened the mtDNAs of a total of 790 individuals for the RFLP markers (−1715 DdeI, −10394 DdeI, +14465 AccI, and +16517 HaeIII) that define this lineage. These individuals comprised 10 aboriginal Siberian populations: Buryats (n=105), Tuvinians (n=111), Koryaks (n=35), Evens (n=65), Yakuts (n=62), Khakassians (n=54), Shors (n=42), Sojots (n=34), Altaians (n=202), and Evenks (n=80). All individuals belonged to the indigenous population of the regions studied, were unrelated, and stated that their maternal grandmother had been born in the area considered for this study.

Haplogroup X mtDNAs were detected only in Altaians, at a frequency of 3.5%. The haplogroup X status of these haplotypes was confirmed through HVSI and HVSII mtDNA sequencing (table 1). All Altaian X mtDNAs harbored the consensus haplogroup X motif: −1715 DdeI, +14465 AccI, +16517 HaeIII, 16189C, 16223T, 16278T, 73G, 153G, 195C, 263G, relative to the Cambridge reference sequence (Anderson et al. 1981) and differed from each other by length-polymorphism mutations at nucleotide positions 16193, 309, and 315. One of these X mtDNAs (ALT16) also harbored a 215G variant (table 1) that has not been observed in either American Indian or European X haplotypes. It should also be noted that none of the Altaian X mtDNAs harbored the 225A variant, which is a marker for a major part of haplogroup X (Brown et al. 1998).

The Altaians, the native people of Altai Republic (south Siberia) number up to 60,000 persons. Altaians is the common denomination for seven formerly distinct Turkic-speaking groups: the Altai-Kizhi, Teleuts, and Telenghits, who are southern Altaians, and the Chelkans, Kumandins, Tubalars, and Maimalars, who are northern Altaians. The differences between southern and northern Altaians are well established, on the basis of anthropological, linguistic, and classical genetic-marker studies (Potapov 1969; Alexeev and Gohman 1984; Luzina 1987). Anthropologically, southern Altaians are typical central Asian Mongoloids (like Mongolians, Yakuts, and Buryats), whereas northern Altaians exhibit some Caucasoid anthropological features, similar to those of Ugric and Samoyedic groups.
 

The Altai region was populated during the Lower Paleolithic, and there is ample evidence of settlement during the Middle Paleolithic. It was proposed by anthropologists that, at least from the Neolithic, the territories of Altai and Sayan region were populated by mixed tribes with Caucasoid and Mongoloid anthropological features, but later they were replaced by Mongoloid populations of central Asian origin (Alexeev and Gohman 1984). The analysis of the tribal structure of Southern Altaians has shown that the present-day Altaians have retained their native language and ethnic identity. They have begun to mix with other ethnic groups (mostly Russians and Kazakhs) only recently, so the interethnic admixture is estimated to be <5% (Luzina 1987; Osipova et al. 1997). The haplogroup X mtDNAs have not been found in populations of central Asia, including Kazakhs, Uighurs, and Kirghizs (Comas et al. 1998). Since the frequency of haplogroup X in Russians is extremely low (3 of 336; Orekhov et al. 1999; Malyarchuk and Derenko 2000; authors unpublished data), the recent European admixture cannot explain the presence of haplogroup X in the Altaians. Hence, the results of the present study allow us to suggest that haplogroup X was the part of the ancestral gene pool for Altaian populations, being found both in northern and southern Altaians

Recently, the mtDNA studies have shown that both northern and southern Altaians exhibit all four Asian and American Indianspecific haplogroups (AD) with frequencies of 57.2% (Sukernik et al. 1996) and 46.8% (Derenko et al. 2000a), respectively, exceeding those reported previously for Mongolians, Chinese, and Tibetans. Therefore, they may represent the populations which are most closely related to New World indigenous groups. Since the detection of all four haplogroups (AD) in an Asian population is thought to be a first criterion in the identification of a possible New World founder, the candidate source population for American Indian mtDNA haplotypes therefore may include the populations originating in the regions to the southwest and southeast of Lake Baikal, including the Altai Mountain region (Derenko et al. 2000b). The presence of X mtDNAs in Altaians is generally consonant with the latter conclusion.

Because the location and identification of the population that was the source of the founding lineages for the New World is a question of considerable interest, several studies on Y-chromosomal DNA polymorphism were performed recently to investigate Pleistocene male migrations to the American continent (Underhill et al. 1996; Lell et al. 1997; Karafet et al. 1999; Santos et al. 1999). It has been shown that the major Y haplotype present in most American Indians could be traced back to recent ancestors they have in common with Siberians: namely, the Kets and Altaians, from the Yenisey River Basin and the Altai Mountains, respectively (Santos et al. 1999). Similarly, based on a comprehensive analysis of worldwide Y-chromosome variation, it has been proposed that populations occupying the general area including Lake Baikal (eastward to the Trans-Baikal and southward into Northern Mongolia), the Lena River headwaters, the Angara and Yenisey River basins, the Altai Mountain foothills, and the region south of the Sayan Mountains (including Tuva and western Mongolia) was the source for dispersals of New World Y-chromosome founders (Karafet et al. 1999). It is obvious that we have now the genetic evidence that will allow closer determination of which Siberian population was the source of the population expansion leading to modern American Indians and will allow relation of the studies of migrations from Siberia to the Americas that are based on paternally inherited genetic systems with those based on maternally inherited ones.

Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Feb-2007 at 15:12
Well, that solves it, then. They weren't Europeans but Turks, and they probably enter the Americas by the Bering strait
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Feb-2007 at 00:15
Originally posted by Goban

Very interesting. When they use "bifaced" they of course mean the fluted points right? 

 
 
 
'
"Bifaced" means it is worked on both sides. A flute is the long indentation at the base that runs up the middle on both sides. Unifaced means worked on one side.
 
 
Now the theory is not eurocentric it is a valid theory based on lithic technology and DNA.
 
Even though there are traces of European DNA it does not mean that the Native Americans were European. The Genetic studies initially tested many Native Groups and came up with 3 Family lines. Then later other test included the Ojibwe tribe that exist around the Great Lakes. This tribe showed a 4th lineage that is only present in Europeans.
 
It is always possible for groups to have come across the Atlantic. It is believed that the reason Archaeologist are finding cultural material from before Clovis and the opening of the Ice Free Corridor is because the Native people used boats to migrate down the coast. This is probably what happened with the Ancestors of the Ojibwe.
 
Now even if the Europeans came to the new world and settled there, they did not remain European for long. It is obvious that they mixed with other Asian origin tribes and through out  the 1000's of years they became mixed.
 
There is quite alot of evidence to support this claim, but there needs to be much more than what is known currently in order to change the "norm"  of what is believed today.
 
That is the Great thing about Archaeology. Archaeology allows for the discovery of new evidence everyday that can change or has changed the set mentality or Status Quo.
 
Unfortunately many archaeologist are narrow minded and only stick to the beliefs and research of their mentors. It is always refreshing to see Arhcaeologist think outside the box. These outside the box thinkers are the ones who are going to make great and original discoveries and will give us a much better understanding of our past.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 7>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.102 seconds.