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Europeans Were 1st Americans? BBC 2 Special
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red clay View Drop Down
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Europeans Were 1st Americans? BBC 2 Special
    Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 21:53
Nov. 21st BBC 2 will air a special highlighting the work of a team of MDNA researcher's who have traced the non Asian DNA found in Native tribes in the great lakes area back to Europe as early as 30,000bp.  That would make the Europeans the First Americans.Smile  See below, link to Program Summary and further info.  The summary is very informative and fills in much.
 
 
                              http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/columbus.shtml
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 06:12
For over a century now enough pre-Clovis evidence has been found to prove people were living in the US long before the Siberian migration, however none of this knapping is Solutrean, in fact much more primitive. Also the dates of the DNA seems a little early for Solutrean culture which occured much later.
 
 
 
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Posts: 581 		  Quote Goban Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:50

Very interesting. When they use "bifaced" they of course mean the fluted points right?

Didn't Don Crabtree experiment with these points and surmised that the added benefit was uncertain compared to the difficulty of manufacture (I just assumed they acted like blade fullers)Smile and that they have been seen before, after and coexisted with many other point technologies (not just in Clovis)? Suggesting that the tech was merely abandoned..
 
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 16:30
Whether Solutrean points were fluted or not is in dispute. The common view is not, though there have been a couple of finds in France that claim to be fluted Solutreans.
 
Fluting in the Americas came after clovis. Clovis was a relatively short period, fluting a very long one. It's also very difficult, most very experienced knappers who've mastered Clovis, can't do fluting and the few who can usually use a knapping machine.
 
Fluting a point has an advantage when it comes to hafting, but the relative difficulty of fluting while knapping, in ratio to minor saving you get while hafting is so disproportionate it can't be the reason. Instead I would guess it's more an aesthetic, competitive urge by knappers of the day to out do each other.


Edited by Paul - 14-Nov-2006 at 16:31
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 17:17
I quote:
 
"All this evidence was still essentially circumstantial, making the Solutrean adventure possible not proven. "
 
I don't see what is the difference between this "theory", the Afro-Olmecs, or the Bermudas triangle.
 
From the genetic point of view, the studies have fixed already the origin of Amerindians in East Asia. I don't know why some guys are so hard headed that still insist the Yaganes of Southern Patagonia were Australoids, and that Europeans peopled the Americas.
 
Lord! How many "theories" we will have to stand LOL
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 21:22
Originally posted by pinguin

I quote:
 
"All this evidence was still essentially circumstantial, making the Solutrean adventure possible not proven. "
 
I don't see what is the difference between this "theory", the Afro-Olmecs, or the Bermudas triangle.
 
From the genetic point of view, the studies have fixed already the origin of Amerindians in East Asia. I don't know why some guys are so hard headed that still insist the Yaganes of Southern Patagonia were Australoids, and that Europeans peopled the Americas.
 
Lord! How many "theories" we will have to stand LOL
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
allow me to post the whole paragraph-
 

All this evidence was still essentially circumstantial, making the Solutrean adventure possible not proven. Douglas Wallace's DNA history bore fruit once more. In the DNA profile of the Ichigua Native American tribe he identified a lineage that was clearly European in origin, too old to be due to genetic mixing since Columbus' discovery of the New World. Instead it dated to Solutrean times. Wallace's genetic timelines show the Ice Age prompted a number of migrations from Europe to America. It looks highly likely that the Solutreans were one.

Taking one line out of context and twisting it to support your ethnocentric bull, The Maatzis would be proud.
 
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Consular Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 01:32
Please note that I am not trying to be funny or speculate through what I post as Im prone to asking what can be seen as a stupid question or a snobby one. Im just new to this neverending story called history so Ive got much to catch up on.

GLAD THATS DONE

now here goes my dumb Q.

In order for Europeans to be first Americans, one has to believe that the land known currently as America was uninhabited by humans or Native American Indians are not part of this study?
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Posts: 952 		  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 16:05
The conventional thoery is that Siberian migrated to Alaska 12,000 years ago. The Solutrean culture existed 19,000 years ago. So it was long before Indians arrived.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 16:15
Originally posted by Paul

The conventional thoery is that Siberian migrated to Alaska 12,000 years ago. The Solutrean culture existed 19,000 years ago. So it was long before Indians arrived.
 
You are wrong!
 
(1) That Solutrean thing smell pretty much like European centrism, anyways.
 
(2) Even if it is true, then it FOLLOWS the solutrean culture ARE INDIANS (No matter genetics).
 
Pinguin
 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 18:16
I would be more carefull speaking about times of migration. Whether they were calculated by radio-carbon analysis or speed of mutations, methods need calibration. As far as I know, they are usually calibrated by Egypt stuff. Situation in Americas might be different (like radiation there might have been higher and lower) which definitely affects data obtained by any of those methods.
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 22:16
Originally posted by Anton

I would be more carefull speaking about times of migration. Whether they were calculated by radio-carbon analysis or speed of mutations, methods need calibration. As far as I know, they are usually calibrated by Egypt stuff. Situation in Americas might be different (like radiation there might have been higher and lower) which definitely affects data obtained by any of those methods.
 
 
 
 
 
Take it up with the people who did the science, after you read the articleWink    I think the methods for MDNA are a little more sophisticated than what you think. 
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 05:15
Originally posted by red clay

 
I think the methods for MDNA are a little more sophisticated than what you think. 
As you wish. I studied this method in the department of Biochemistry in the Uni and now the colleague of mine who is sitting on the right did a lot of it. So, I have possibility to consult with him Wink
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 08:11
Originally posted by red clay

... 
 
Take it up with the people who did the science, after you read the articleWink    I think the methods for MDNA are a little more sophisticated than what you think. 
 
Yes. DNA markers are pretty sophisticated. However, the X marker is spread across ALL EURASIA. So how come you are going to prove the people that entered the Americas came from Europe? LOLLOL
 
Dreams!
 
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 17:38
Time estimates for the arrival of X in North America are 12,000-36,000 years ago, depending on the number of assumed founders, thus supporting the conclusion that the peoples harboring haplogroup X were among the original founders of Native American populations. To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry.
 
Source- Center for Molecular Medicine, Emory University
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 19:24

Even if they were "caucasoids", that does not imply they came from Europe. They could have came from Central Asia and follow the Bering route as the rest of immigrants. In that case, that only would show Native Americans have some "caucasoids" ancestors. Something not very strange at all, given the complexion of many Native Americans.

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Posts: 6003 		  Quote Cywr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 04:33
Meh, BBC media sensationalism, as pengiun poiunted out, most caucasoids don't even live in Europe.
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Posts: 28 		  Quote explorer6 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 12:59
Not to mention that haplogroup X is not "caucasian" or "caucasoid" or whatever.  maybe those early europeans were non-caucasoids like siberians or patagonians.  That actually makes more sense if you add also y chromsome R and N haplogroups that also likely came into europe from asia.

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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Dec-2006 at 13:09
Originally posted by Paul

For over a century now enough pre-Clovis evidence has been found to prove people were living in the US long before the Siberian migration, however none of this knapping is Solutrean, in fact much more primitive. Also the dates of the DNA seems a little early for Solutrean culture which occured much later. 
 
I've heard about this evidence before & briefly looked at some examples. 


Edited by Hellios - 10-Dec-2006 at 13:11
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Posts: 384 		  Quote Tar Szernd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 01:28
Hi!
 
In Brazil were found some bones that are maybe australoid origin. (Lucia, etc.) and 35-40 000 years old.
 
TSZ
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Posts: 1933 		  Quote Hellios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2006 at 02:23
Originally posted by Tar Szernd

Hi!
 
In Brazil were found some bones that are maybe australoid origin. (Lucia, etc.) and 35-40 000 years old.
 
TSZ
 
Pinguin might know something about this.
 
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