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The many faces in Turkey
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Caliph
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The many faces in Turkey
    Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:16
Think
Because Turkey wants to be in the EU that means your under EU rules which means letting in refugees, do you really think the Turks will treat Africans as fellow Turks, i dont think so.
You'd be very, very, very suprised that infact there are estimated to be 500,000 or more Turks who are of Black African (East African- Eritrean, Sudanease, Southern Egyptioan, Somalian...) heritage today in Turkey. There are villages especially in parts of the mediterranean and Agean region where there are villages of Black and mixed Black Turks who feel as Turk and are accepted as a Turk.
 
I remember visiting an area in Southern Turkey, alot of people in the area looked like either Native American's, East Africans or a mix between the two it was very interesting.
 
The most intriguing part is that none of them seem to notice or care that there are so many different faces. You go to the "ChayBahche"-Tea-Garden and see families together, you see Asiatic, Black, White looking Turks sitting together with no problem.
 
I asked somebody how its so diverse, he looked at me like I was crazy and said what are you talking about were all the same, I said but you look different he smiled and said aaaah that's because many, many years ago an "Arap" Aga (Powerfull leader) came with his tribe to the area. He said that his ancestors were Turkmen.
 
This explains why people in Turkey call "darker" people "Arap" because the Blacks who came spoke Arabic and similar Semitic languages.
 
Today, they all speak Turkish, feel Turkish and most importantly of all are ACCEPTED as Turks.
 
I think we in Europe can learn alot from Turkey when it comes to multiculturism and living in harmony.
 
Unfortunately, we don't seem to be able to "accept" people of different colours as one of our own, if they look a bit different were quicky to exclude them, these people speak our language share our culture but arn't fully allowed to fit in because we don't let them. Then we complain that multiculturism doesn't work and that foreigners are causing a problem.
 
 
Think, Turkish Nationalism today, the mainstream view of Nationalism is not "racist". You talk of Grey Wolves, well a Blone haired Blue eyed Turk and Black Turk and Central Asian looking Turk can all be accepted as one with absolutely no problem as can Kurds and other groups for example, Laz are some of the most Staunchest Turkish Nationalists.
 
If you speak Turkish, have a Turkish culture and identity and feel you are one then you'll be accepted, its simple, that's how Turks have been so successfull Wink its a very inclusive method of nationhood.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
Albert Pine

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DayI View Drop Down
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Posts: 2408 		  Quote DayI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:41
Originally posted by Afsar Beghi

Originally posted by DayI

Originally posted by The Hidden Face

Turks cant be racist. Really.


the ones who are racist are mostly non-Turkic from ethnic or has non-Turkic facial features (blond hair blue-green eyes).


ok, you know , so you can tell me the turkic facial-features?



meh

http://turkleronline.com/images/Resim_Galerisi/galeri/kultigin.jpg
Bu mıntıka'nın Dayı'sı
[IMG">http://www.allempires.com/forum/uploads/DayI/2006-03-17_164450_bscap021.jpg">
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Posts: 341 		  Quote Afsar Beghi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 17:53
so if i have the features of kultigin i am turkic? I dont look like him, but I am definitely turkic
Dadaloğlum bir gun kavga kurulur,
Oter tufek davlumbazlar vurulur,
Nice ko yiğitler yere serilir,
Olen lr kalan sağlar bizimdir!
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Posts: 219 		  Quote shinai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 18:50
guys, let me share with you my experience when I visited Turkey.
majority of Turks , I met were not racist against me, but they were nationalist. I met  few Turks ( mostly white looking Turks from west coast), showing racist attitudes. These people were telling me that the real Turks are Blond with blue eyes and they are very close to Germans in Blood.
One of these people when realized I am an Afshar Turkmen told me that most of the Turkmen are from Kurdish (Iranic) origin, theye were calling themselves Buzkurs and my Turkish friends recomanded me not to get close to these group for my safety.
I was very interested to talk to this group but I realized it could be dengerouse.I remember once when I was entering a bar They asked me if I am a Kurd or not, and they refused to let me in when I did not answer them.Anyhow the big majority of Turks were very nice to me( peopel of Erzerum, Ankara, Istanbul), and I really loved their attitude. So I can say that Turkic cultire is not racsist, and racisim in Turkey has not been  originated from Turkic culture.
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Posts: 1379 		  Quote The Hidden Face Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 19:13
These people were telling me that the real Turks are Blond with blue eyes and they are very close to Germans in Blood.
 
Where do you find these kind of Turks?
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 19:23
I am a blond and blue eyed turk, until now, no one saw me as fringe element.Infact I heard such words only from you.(an outsider)


I didnt mean fringe element as something bad but something rare, kind of..
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 19:50
Shinai
( mostly white looking Turks from west coast), showing racist attitudes. These people were telling me that the real Turks are Blond with blue eyes and they are very close to Germans in Blood.
 
ShockedDude, you should have kindly explained to them to go to a place called "school" and when they attend elementary class on Turkish history to return and speak to you LOL
 
Shinai
One of these people when realized I am an Afshar Turkmen told me that most of the Turkmen are from Kurdish (Iranic) origin
 
Where did you meet these wacko's, Turks are Germanic Turkmens who are the entire reason that Turkey is Turkish are Kurdish, what-ever-next were all Green Reptiles LOL
 
 
Think
I didnt mean fringe element as something bad but something rare, kind of..
I knew a family in Turkey, when you ask them what they are, you get a simple response, "Turks".
 
But you look at their family, the father looks Central Asian and the Grand-mother on mother's side look Native American.  But his sister had Blonde hair and blue eyes. They're family was Crimean Tatar and Turkmenistan Turkmen and somewhere along the line also must have had some White Slav-Ukranian or Russian link.
 
In the same family there were such differences, however, it didn't affect their identity and sense of belonging at all, it's not even an issue.
 
Colour and Race, mean very little to Turks, what is very suprising to us in the West is that there is no direct or in-direct issues regarding "colour". A Black person whose mother tongue is Turkish, who was bought up in Turkey with Turkish culture and feels a Turk will be accepted as a Turk if he/she feel's and says they're a Turk.
 


Edited by Bulldog - 05-Nov-2006 at 19:54
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 20:55
Originally posted by Bulldog

 I remember visiting an area in Southern Turkey, alot of people in the area looked like either Native American's, East Africans or a mix between the two it was very interesting.
 
 
That's curious. As a Latin American, I know Native Americans don't look like Black Africans at all.
 
Pinguin
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 05-Nov-2006 at 20:56
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 21:19
Colour and Race, mean very little to Turks, what is very suprising to us in the West is that there is no direct or in-direct issues regarding "colour". A Black person whose mother tongue is Turkish, who was bought up in Turkey with Turkish culture and feels a Turk will be accepted as a Turk if he/she feel's and says they're a Turk


Yes but these more Afro looking Turks are no doubt a minority in a country of 60 million which is why i cant belive the "turks cant be racist" line.

Theres Blacks living in Arabia an they are discriminated against, in Egypt they are regarded as scum (so ive heard)

Youve got youyr opinion an my opinion is more western than cultured so ill have a look around an see what i can find on these Black turks.

Balkans people are usually racist. Dude said before you cant tell Turks an Greeks apart in Turkey, yet Greeks are racist so i dont see how Turks are any different.

I was also under the impression that Turks in real life dont actually identify with the Mongoloid part at all. infact i was viewing a Turkish discussion once an they say these Mongoloid Turks are a minority...
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 21:27
Does anyone know any active Turkish forums that are in English ?
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 21:53
Pinguin
That's curious. As a Latin American, I know Native Americans don't look like Black Africans at all.
 
I meant, there were Native American looking people and East African looking people in the same area, not that they look similar Embarrassed
 
 
Think
Yes but these more Afro looking Turks are no doubt a minority in a country of 60 million which is why i cant belive the "turks cant be racist" line.
 
Well there is no classification Black, White etc Turk so what proportion is black has black mixture isn't exactly known but some estimate that during the Ottoman period 500,000 or so East Africans came to areas of Turkey.

Think
Youve got youyr opinion an my opinion is more western than cultured so ill have a look around an see what i can find on these Black turks.
 
Well you could start with "Hadi Turkmen" he was the head of Turkish Football federation. "Esmeray" is a famous and well known singer, Kuzgun Acar is a famous Sculptur, Tugce Gunder famous model.
 

Turkey's Black Model

She was chosen as the 'Best Model of the World,' an international annual event, in 2005. She is an aspiring model with a bright future currently being featured in Tempo Magazine (a Turkish weekly equivalent of Time or Newsweek). The adopted 22-year old Turk, Tugce Guder, also happens to be black.

Tugceguder In Turkey, there are an estimated 800,000 citizens of African descent. The difference is that in Turkey, the person's race is rarely noticed and ever an issue. In fact, I realized I had an African-Turkish student in my elementary school in Istanbul from re-viewing class pictures years later after I moved to the U.S. You might say the ethnic identities of the Turkish citizens receive much more attention nowadays, more so than the racial makeup - the exact opposite of the case here in the U.S.

As for Tugce, she's been modeling for about five years and sounds mature beyond her years, especially when she talks seriously about being a role model (no pun intended) in the age of scandal ridden world of modeling and image issues. Her personal passion is to raise awareness for helping neglected kids. She believes the constant gift of love for these children is more effective than just bearing gifts and hopes to make a difference.

I applaud Tugce's achievements and hope we'll be seeing more of her internationally as she proudly represents Turkey.

Turkish readers can check out the article in Hurriyet.

There are villages were most people are Black and mixed with other's, in this environment the people's of these areas would have never even known colour was an issue, they're Turks.
 
I remeber here in London, there was this guy everyone thought he was Jamaican and when he said he was a Turk they were shocked. He told me that he didn't know what colour racism was untill he came to Europe, people were judging him because of his colour. This guy was a "Ulkucu", Turkish nationalist and could enter any Ulku Ocak and be greeted with open-arms. I don't think a Black person could be welcomned with open-arms in a Neo-Nazi meeting.
 
Think
Balkans people are usually racist. Dude said before you cant tell Turks an Greeks apart in Turkey, yet Greeks are racist so i dont see how Turks are any different.
 
Turks and Greeks arn't the same people so something Greeks do has nothing to do with what Turks do. Besides, Greeks arn't all racist. 
Think
I was also under the impression that Turks in real life dont actually identify with the Mongoloid part at all. infact i was viewing a Turkish discussion once an they say these Mongoloid Turks are a minority...
 
Your wildly mistaken.
 
Plus, majority of Turks live in Central Asia and have some Mongoloid features. Turks always profess that they're a Central Asian people in origin and do identify with it heavily.
      What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 22:43
Plus, majority of Turks live in Central Asia and have some Mongoloid features. Turks always profess that they're a Central Asian people in origin and do identify with it heavily


*Asked a friend* Turks dont hang nor have anything major to do with the Asians. Their butt buddies are the Albanians..










 


Edited by think - 05-Nov-2006 at 22:45
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Racism in the way it is known in the west does not exist in Turkey. I actually have some African ancestry, and I have met some African Turks in Turkey.

There are problems with the Kurds though, but this does not have to do anything with racism, but with nationalism.
http://www.journalof911studies.com
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 23:24
How can you seperate Racism an nationalism. In the "West" any talk of nationalism equates as Racism. How is it really any different in Turkey ?? Because they are Kurds an they look similar, thats still discrimination based on ethnicity.

Having a few Africans in Turkey who are accepted doesnt mean Turks arent racist.

its like the Token Black guy. No ones racist towards him, yet if the numbers are bumped up things can turn ugly..

if theyre were a much fewer amount of Turks in say Germany or much fewer pakistanis in England then the racism directed towards these people definately would not be so mainstream..

Sweden once said they arent a racist people. Things change when the minority starts looking more like a majority......

Thats why racism isnt so abundant in turkish society Smile







Edited by think - 05-Nov-2006 at 23:40
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2006 at 23:41
Originally posted by think

In the "West" any talk of nationalism equates as Racism. How is it really any different in Turkey ?? Because they are Kurds an they look similar, thats still discrimination based on ethnicity.


Turks and Kurds look quie similar, you cannot really tell them appart just from how they look.

Racism in the form of discrimination on the basis of skin color or shape of the eyes is as far as I know absent in Turkey. At least I am not aware of any black person being attacked because of their skin color or an asian looking person because of the shape of their eyes.


http://www.journalof911studies.com
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Posts: 659 		  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 00:52
Originally posted by think

Balkans people are usually racist. Dude said before you cant tell Turks an Greeks apart in Turkey, yet Greeks are racist so i dont see how Turks are any different.

First of all, you make a fundamental mistake: if Greeks are racist this doesn't mean that Turks are as well. What kind of logic is that?
Secondly, you can say that Balkanians are nationalists, but that doesn't mean that they are racist as well. Usually Balkanians "hate" each other because of the many wars they have fought in the past. (I don't like making generalizations and label a whole nation as sth but anyway)
And lastly, care to explain how you reached the conclusion that "Greeks are racist"?
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Posts: 1013 		  Quote Cent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 02:32
"think we in Europe can learn alot from Turkey when it comes to multiculturism and living in harmony."
 
Please, what multiculturism? There is one culture in Turkey, and it's Turkish. Turkey is no multiculture society.
 
And don't tell me Kurdish. Because Kurdish culture is restrickted.
 
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 03:09
Infact main problem at balkan is nationalism, not racism.
 
If a turk say, I am greek and will fight for greece, most probably greece people would accept him. Or viceversa.
 
Of course turks can be racist too, but main problem, racist against who?
 
We are not white, black, or brown. so we can fight against who?
I didnt mean fringe element as something bad but something rare, kind of..
It is not so rare, specially at the coast of black see..
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Posts: 435 		  Quote think Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 04:48
Secondly, you can say that Balkanians are nationalists, but that doesn't mean that they are racist as well. Usually Balkanians "hate" each other because of the many wars they have fought in the past.


Well these nationalist types will be able to "hate" when the immigrants start flowing in an then we will see the lines between racism an nationalism being blurred.

Like the Croatians Sieg Heiling the Swedish band Satyricon. When Satyricon have a Black member.

i guess nationalism in the Balkans is different because your all similar just like the English//Scot/WelshIrish hating thing.

Im not saying theres anything wrong with some national pride in your identity because thats what alot of Western world lacks (majorally)

And lastly, care to explain how you reached the conclusion that "Greeks are racist"?


I take that back, i should have read what i wrote....Sorry
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 04:49
well i have a 'black' tamil friend who experinced racism in turkey. She caught the wrong bus to some village off the beaten track (somwhere inland from bodrum i think) and was told she was lucky the local taxi drivers  accepted her in their cars and charged her extra because she is black. she also said they were all quite fair in this place.

 This stuff happens in all parts of the world including turkey. We all have big inetrantional cities full of different races or atleast tolerence and we all have redneck backwaters and close minded twits.




Edited by Leonidas - 06-Nov-2006 at 04:55
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