QuoteReplyTopic: Question re Che Guevara. Posted: 07-Nov-2006 at 21:58
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said: Even the ones who took the boat will tell you they like Che but hate Fidel. Anyhow, I wasn't talking about them - I was talking about the people in those countries, natives, poor, and families that were under repression.
Pinguin said:Who is not suffering represion? Look the repression Americans suffer, but they don't start bombing the supermarkets! They preffer to work.
The type of repression you're talking about "the repression the Americans suffer" is not the same type of repression that led to all revolutions. Some revolutions were justified. Can we agree on that?
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:It's not a country of "whites and mulattoes" but a country of blacks, whites, and everything in between, mostly poor like the other Caribbean states. The original natives were Taino, Siboney, Atabey, Hatuey, and a couple more that I forget.
Pinguin said: Cuba is the second "more African" nation in Hispanic America, after Dominican Republic.
A little secret; the black population percentage in Cuba is actually higher than official figures, for political reasons - hard to explain without getting into a big story, and I believe it's higher than the Dominican Republic but lower than Haiti of course, although the only evidence I have at the moment are articles by Cuban scholars. I'll look for more solid evidence and let you know.
Originally posted by pinguin
It got a strong African heritage, to the point they still preserve theirs African religion, called Santeria. And I heared they even know some Yoruba words they use in theirs rituals!
It's fascinating how they blended the African religions with some Christianity; some of their saints are Ogun, Yemaya, and Chango. The priests are called Babalaos, and when you see them it's a "consulta" where fortunes are told based on throwing shells, etc. There's a sect of radical Santeria believers called the "Abacua", men only, and they're considered dangerous by many white & mulatto Cubans.
Originally posted by pinguin
The society is White and Mulatto in general terms, with all the shades in between as you say.
Black is not a shade between white and mulatto. The breakdown in Cuba is like this: black, white, mulatto, then the rest...
Originally posted by pinguin
Genetics has show than in Puerto Rico, Cuba and Dominican Republic the Amerindians didn't become extinguished but assimilated. The genetics of those countries show a high percentage of Amerindian markers.
In Puerto Rico & DR you might see people with "Amerindian" features - in Cuba it's quite rare. During the time I lived there I don't recall seeing any. The features are mainly black, Hispanic, and mulatto. The Spaniards really did a great job of exterminating the island of aboriginals, as Cubans will tell you.
Originally posted by pinguin
Amerindian culture still survives in some things like foods and placenames, but in general the Caribbean is a lot less Amerindian influence that both mainland Latin America and Canada.
Si senor.
Originally posted by pinguin
There is a large numbers of Cubans that are white, and they made perhaps 1/3 of the population.
The eastern end of the country is more black because (during the slave trade) the slave ships reached that side first, for transshipment to the rest of the Americas. Cuba was one of (if not the) biggest transshipment point for slaves being shipped from Africa to the Americas. There are great histories of Hispanic Cubans who fought to free slaves, like Carlos Manuel de Cespedes! You know him?
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:Some revolutions are communist/socialist and some are not.You seem to have a preference, although people die in both.
Pinguin said:I preffer Economic Revolutions, rather than killing people on the street, or torture them in the electric bed.
1. I also prefer economic revolutions, but sometimes that's not an option.
2. Torture is terrible, just look at some of the non-communist countries. I'm not sure about Bolivia, but in Cuba, torture is not a problem - not saying there's no torture at all in Cuba as I won't say there's no torture at all by the United States.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:Please show examples that Che Guevara is "a symbol of death & torture" to the people of Cuba, Bolivia, Africa...
Pinguion said:He is a new Robin Hood. People idealize these kind of guys, anyways.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:Pinguin, I'm the most peaceful person, but if I saw my government pull stunts like the regimes Che fought did, believe me, I would take up arms. I'm sorry for you if you would not.
Pinguin said: If I don't like the country where I live I move somewhere else. I believe in the "free market of countries" .
Some will leave and some will stay and fight to change the country.
Originally posted by pinguin
See China! What a more represive country like that. And see how people have reacted. They are not losing theirs time in revolutions, or playing cowboy. They are working and pretty soon they will live better than the west. That's the way to do it. I believe.
China went through a revolution.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:In terms of racial harmony Canada is one of the world's leading examples.
Pinguin said:Go to your next American Indian neighbourhood in the Western Provinces. Perhaps you'll realize then, something is going wrong with the multicultural ideology in your country.
As I see it, the Canadian government has made all the efforts possible to stop racism. However, there are many biggots between the common Canadian people.
Every country has bigots Pinguin, but you know that generally speaking, Canada is one of the world's leading examples in the fight against racism.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:I have - it says he killed Bolivians who were fighting for the regime at the time (a regime everybody knows about) and the Bolivian natives today understand this, which is why they like him, as Ive demonstrated.
Pinguin said:That "admiration" came too late. For the Che, at least. lol.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:I understand perfectly.I've been reading about your country. I'm going to Rosario (Argentina) soon and will try to visit Chile.
Pinguin said: If you do, sent me an e-mail. Pinguin
The type of repression you're talking about "the repression the Americans suffer" is not the same type of repression that led to all revolutions. Some revolutions were justified. Can we agree on that?
Well, Americans simply don't react. And Canadians either. You need people with more energy to find out they are repressed in the first place
Originally posted by pinguin
A little secret; the black population percentage in Cuba is actually higher than official figures, for political reasons - hard to explain without getting into a big story, and I believe it's higher than the Dominican Republic but lower than Haiti of course, although the only evidence I have at the moment are articles by Cuban scholars. I'll look for more solid evidence and let you know.
It depends what you mean by "Black". If you apply the U.S. one drop rule they are all Blacks, Fidel included. Well, if you apply it to the U.S. half the White population is Black too
Serious statistics, though, show about half the population is Mulatto, from Black of color Black to people with just traces of Black. The rest is Southern European.
Dominican Republic is a country which is a lot more African, but with an important number of non-Africans as well.
Originally posted by pinguin
It's fascinating how they blended the African religions with some Christianity; some of their saints are Ogun, Yemaya, and Chango. The priests are called Babalaos, and when you see them it's a "consulta" where fortunes are told based on throwing shells, etc. There's a sect of radical Santeria believers called the "Abacua", men only, and they're considered dangerous by many white & mulatto Cubans.
Sure. You should go to Brazil or Uruguay to celebrate the New Year and the cult of Yemanja. Or perhaps you preffer a sacrifice of a poor goat or chicken, plenty of blood but with the rhytm of rap
If you ask me, I preffer Native American rituals, though. They are from these lands and not imported. However, without the human sacrifices that they used to have, though
Originally posted by pinguin
Black is not a shade between white and mulatto. The breakdown in Cuba is like this: black, white, mulatto, then the rest...
Yes. Pretty much like Toronto, isn't?
Originally posted by pinguin
In Puerto Rico & DR you might see people with "Amerindian" features - in Cuba it's quite rare. During the time I lived there I don't recall seeing any. The features are mainly black, Hispanic, and mulatto. The Spaniards really did a great job of exterminating the island of aboriginals, as Cubans will tell you.
Genetics studies prove you wrong. The population of Puerto Rico... LISTEN CAREFULLY... has a 50% of Amerindian mtDNA. And Cubans also have an important percentage of Amerindian mtDNA which is not null. Actually, I can point out to you MANY Cubans that have Amerindians facial features, including a former dictator.
Originally posted by pinguin
..
The eastern end of the country is more black because (during the slave trade) the slave ships reached that side first, for transshipment to the rest of the Americas. Cuba was one of (if not the) biggest transshipment point for slaves being shipped from Africa to the Americas. There are great histories of Hispanic Cubans who fought to free slaves, like Carlos Manuel de Cespedes! You know him?
The largest was Brazil.
Originally posted by pinguin
..
I will. Are you very far from Rosario?
That's at the other side of the Andes. I am in Santiago, Chile
Hellios said:The type of repression you're talking about "the repression the Americans suffer" is not the same type of repression that led to all revolutions. Some revolutions were justified. Can we agree on that?
Pinguin said: Well, Americans simply don't react. And Canadians either. You need people with more energy to find out they are repressed in the first place
Zero energy needed for that.
Originally posted by pinguin
It depends what you mean by "Black". If you apply the U.S. one drop rule they are all Blacks, Fidel included. Well, if you apply it to the U.S. half the White population is Black too
Serious statistics, though, show about half the population is Mulatto, from Black of color Black to people with just traces of Black. The rest is Southern European. Dominican Republic is a country which is a lot more African, but with an important number of non-Africans as well.
Black as in black.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said: In Puerto Rico & DR you might see people with "Amerindian" features - in Cuba it's quite rare. During the time I lived there I don't recall seeing any. The features are mainly black, Hispanic, and mulatto. The Spaniards really did a great job of exterminating the island of aboriginals, as Cubans will tell you.
Pinguin said:Genetics studies prove you wrong. The population of Puerto Rico... LISTEN CAREFULLY... has a 50% of Amerindian mtDNA. And Cubans also have an important percentage of Amerindian mtDNA which is not null. Actually, I can point out to you MANY Cubans that have Amerindians facial features, including a former dictator.
Genetic studies also prove there are Russian genes in Cubans, and there are more Cubans with Russian features than "Amerindian" features. Trust me, I've lived there.
Originally posted by pinguin
Hellios said:The eastern end of the country is more black because (during the slave trade) the slave ships reached that side first, for transshipment to the rest of the Americas. Cuba was one of (if not the) biggest transshipment point for slaves being shipped from Africa to the Americas. There are great histories of Hispanic Cubans who fought to free slaves, like Carlos Manuel de Cespedes! You know him?
Pinguin said:The largest was Brazil.
Yeah, Brazil too. My parents worked there for 10 years & went to some Macumba festivals.
First, i'm a little bit dissapointed, i read this thread to late.
No, it's still going.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
The Commandante was a symbol, especially for the movement of the students in the western european countries of 1960 and 70s.
True.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
The important thing for those european "revolutionaries" was to liberate from the history of their parents, the wwII trauma and the surpression by the existing societies.
Interesting.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Che Cuevarra was idealised and used as an example of a fearless fighter against capatalismn.
I'd switch "capitalism" for "imperialism" in that statement.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Although many of his events were ending as a flop.
Yeah.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
The cirtumstances of his death were the final reason for the glorification of Che.
Correct.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Other revolutionaries preceded or followed, but no one had the carisma of Che.
Some try
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
Not to mentioned that he was good looking, a not to underrate point of view, mostly for the few female comrades, which joined the student-movement at that time.
Valid.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
But if you read the biography of Che, you must accept, he did those things, many of the spokesmen of the students wouldn't have done.
A lot shows this.
Originally posted by ulrich von hutten
To keep it in perspectives, i must say, Che did, what i only dreamed in my daydreams and therefore he will be in my heart for ever. Let's put this way, a substitute for my own cowardice and inactivity.
I respect your dreams of dropping your personal comforts to go around the world wherever there is grave brutality & cruelty being inflicted among helpless people to fight it, and anybody who doesn't respect you for that has some personal (political) issues.
Pinguin said:That rethoric of the repression is precisely what I mean. External forces of Communism and Capitalism brought death, torture and poverty to the Americas.
hugoestr said: Uhm, maybe I am more cynical than others, but I think that it was Latin Americans who killed, tortured, and stole in the Americans. They did this before the Cold War; they did it through the Cold War, through the generous sponsorship of the U.S. and the U.S.S.R.; and they have done it after it.
You're not being cynical hugoestr, because it's true; how people practice any chosen ideology (or interpret any religion) is their own action.
Originally posted by hugoestr
Claiming that we were tricked into it would be saying that we are stupid and easily controlled. We are not. Latin Americans deserve praise for their achievements, and should bare the responsibility for their faults.
Yeah, Pinguin, it's not like the East Block, or USSR where they had endless columns of Russian tanks rolling in.
Those revolutions had more to do than just being pawns in the Cold War. The reality was that there were cases of extreme poverty that justified them.
That's right, and even poverty (for me) is not enough justification for a bloody revolution - there has to be more, because poverty is not always the fault of the regime.
Originally posted by hugoestr
To Pinguin: I also doubt that the level of living would be any better without them since the problems that inspired many to get to arms in the first place was the wealth gap that our nations have.
Yep; a wealth gap problem is usually the fault of the regime.
Originally posted by hugoestr
From what I know, Castro seems to have been a lot less bloody than many other Latin American dictators, especially right wing ones.
Right.
Originally posted by hugoestr
Personally, I think that el Che is appealing because he lived the "Great White Hope" plot: foreigner finds his way into a politically suppressed country, and gets the people to fight for their feedom.
Those revolutions had more to do than just being pawns in the Cold War. The reality was that there were cases of extreme poverty that justified them.
I also doubt that the level of living would be any better without them since the problems that inspired many to get to arms in the first place was the wealth gap that our nations have.
I fully agree with your statement about the loss of life.
From what I know, Castro seems to have been a lot less bloody than many other Latin American dictators, especially right wing ones.
Pinguin said: I don't believe "revolution" was the only choice at all.
Ok, let's fight a regime like the Batista regime by serving it.
Originally posted by Pinguin
I believe things just escaped of control.
Originally posted by Pinguin
Now for right wing dictator to be bloodier than left wing ones, I doubt.
Originally posted by Pinguin
I don't know how many has Castro killed in 50 years of regime, but I am pretty certain they add a good 100.000 people at least.
Originally posted by Pinguin
hugoestr said: Personally, I think that el Che is appealing because he lived the "Great White Hope" plot: foreigner finds his way into a politically suppressed country, and gets the people to fight for their freedom.
Pinguin said: The problem is that communists didn't fight for the freedom of people, but to implant the "dictatorship of the proletarian" that was a dictatorship, anyways.
Che Guevara fought for other reasons, as you've said in your other posts to me.
Originally posted by Pinguin
The collapse of the Soviet Union made almost all people in the planet to wake up from the myth. But there still exist people that believe it could have worked.
The fall of the Soviet Union is quite interesting Pinguin, and has little to do with Che Guevara's wars - Cuba turned communist after the revolution - it was not a communist revolution - after the revolution Cuba tried to ally with the United States but they were rejected and then aggressed economically & militarily, resulting in Cuba allying with the USSR and turning communist.
Originally posted by Pinguin
If you ask me, I preffer the path followed by Costa Rica. Perhaps the more intelligent country south of the U.S. border.
Pinguin said: I don't believe "revolution" was the only choice at all. I believe things just escaped of control. Consider what happened in Peru with the Shinning Path: 200.000 deaths in that conflict alone! Perhaps 1/2 a millioon died in Guatemala. And you keep adding.
Mixcoatl said: What happened in Guatemala had nothing to do with a revolution. Jacobo rbenz was democratically elected, and not very radical. The civil war started after he was overthrown by rightwing generals supported by the USA. In fact I think Arbenz was one of the best leaders Latin America ever had.
The shining path rebellion caused 50.000, of which a significant part caused by the government. (Though you're right that indeed the Shining Path was the most brutal guerilla organization of Latin America), while the canonical death toll for Guatemala is 200.000
Pinguin said: Now for right wing dictator to be bloodier than left wing ones, I doubt. I don't know how many has Castro killed in 50 years of regime, but I am pretty certain they add a good 100.000 people at least. In Argentina, the gorillas killed around 20.000 people. But, do you know Pinochet killed around 3.500 only? Is not the number of people killed what matters, I guess, but how much terror you can inject into the population. And the Pinochet regime was terrorific in extreme.
Mixcoatl said: Death tolls for Castro's regime vary between almost nothing to more than 150.000. Most serious sources give numbers around 10.000. That's of course 10.000 too much, but not extreme, considering that his regime exists for almost half a century. Many rightwing dictators have been much worse, Trujillo for example (15.000), the Argentine Junta (30.000), Maximiliano Hernndez (30.000), Papa & Baby Doc (60.000) and Efran Ros Montt (75.000 in 14 months!). And all of them ruled shorter than Castro. (source) I really don't like Castro, but he's definately not the worst dictator of Latin America.
Thanks for the info & source Mixcoatl. The clarifications you made are important.
My point is that Latin America has a tendency of trying to solve political problems through violence and civil war. And it is possible to rose people to support you because the wealth gap is so marked that there will be willing recruits to these military adventures. And these don't have to be necessarily poor people, but most likely educated people, poor or not, who will be move to action by the social injustice found in Latin America.
It is a common belief that the European countries via ideologies instigated wars in the third world. I frankly don't buy that because you cannot instigate people into violence if they dont really want to fight.
Precisely.
Originally posted by hugoestr
I think that many of the conflicts in the 3rd World were going to happen in any case, and it was the local war lords that took advantage of the Cold War to fund their ambitions.
There are so many examples of this.
Originally posted by hugoestr
Look at Fidel. It seems that he only became a "Communist" when his attempt to get American sponsorship failed. Or Look at Savimbi in Angola, who started as a Maoist when the Chinese supported him, and became a right-winger when his sponsor became the U.S. Had The U.S. and the U.S.S.R. not supported these people with money, there would have been less bloodshed. But it would have happened in any case.
Good examples, and what you said about Castro is true.
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Topic: Question re Che Guevara.
The breakdown in Cuba is like this: black, white, mulatto, then the rest...
