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Nick 
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Joined: 12-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 113 |
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 Topic: Iranians root in Central asiaPosted: 28-Jan-2007 at 02:27 |
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What? where did you guys got that from?
Sakas were natives of Eastern Iran ie Afghanistan they empire started by 1000-900BCE and then moved to range war with western Aryans who had already moved into western Iran, to win the war the saka tribe helped Assyrians but then somehow making deals with Assyrians the saka tribe moved north from north-western Iranian into Ukrain and from there they moved futher north, their language still common among Russians/Ukrainians and Slavik which were influnced by Ossetics. Ossetic is Eastern Iranian language close to Pashtu/Avesta.
I can give more examples but as for now HERE are some of the words which are common in Avesta/Ossetic/slavic.
English= Pashto, Slavic/Russian
Monkey = Be-zo, Ah-be-zion
Dog = Sa-pay, Sa-Pay-Kha Goat = Zebah, Ka-Ze Cow= Ghowa, Gharowa Heart= Zerr-ah, Zerrt-za Two= Dwa, Dwva
Door= Darwar, Dever
Yes= Da, Dah
Nail= Nokoti, Nokti
Lenght= Vassati, Vesate
And you can't just take Greeks/Herodotus records as an only fact. You have to look other facts, like Assyrians, and Medians who had faced Saka's before Greeks and Europeans did.
I don't know what you mean by that since Tocharians were part of Sakistan. Today its still known as Tochar/Tokhar/Takhar located right in Afghanistan. Here is the historical Tocharistan.
One should this question how in the world did an Eastern Iranian language managed to reach into, Europe? answer is clear The Sakas. And the same sakas (some tribes after making peace with Medians) who return to Afghanistan went even south into India. (Ie 200-100BCE)
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chimera
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Joined: 25-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 131 |
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 15:02 |
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Diodorus "ascribed to Scythians themselves" the snake-ancestor legend :_
"Python etc.."J Fontenrose. UCal.Cam.1959. pp97-9. As the Ukraine Scy. had Danu of Brahmins, and Tocharian "brahmn.kte" means Brahma god, then logically Saka Scy. , between those two, also had Danu and river-snake "nakar". Saka entered India from northwest, closer to the Ukr. Scy. and with Kambojas.
(quote) " Dr Thomas observes: " It would seem probable that the tribes from eastern Iran who invaded India included diverse elements mingled indistinguishably together, so that, it is not possible to assert that one dynasty was Parthian while another was Saka..." etc [38].
This reference apparently alludes to chaotic political scenario following the collapse of Mauryan and Sunga dynasties in northern India and its subsequent occupation by foreign hordes of the Yavanas, Kambojas, Saka and Pahlavas etc.
There are very important references to the warring Mleccha hordes of the Shakas, Yavanas, Kambojas, Pahlavas etc in the Bala Kanda of the Valmiki Ramayana also[42].
Foremost Indologists like Dr H. C. Raychadhury clearly see in these verses the glimpses of struggles of the Hindus with the mixed invading hordes of the above referred to Saka, Yavana, Kamboja, Pahlava barbarians from the north-west. The time frame for these struggles is second century BCE downwards. Dr Raychadhury fixes the date of the present version of the Valmiki Ramayana around/after second century CE ([43]".(end quote).
Marduk of Babylon had a snake idol which was carried with him to the Tower of Kambuzi kings, and thus connects with marriage:
(quote),"It is generally assumed that the ziggurats supported a shrine, though the only evidence comes from Herodotus, and not physical evidence. It has also been suggested by a number of scholars that this shrine was the scene of the Sacred Marriage Rite, the central rite of the New Year's Festival. Herodotus desribes the furnishing of the shrine on top of the ziggurat at Babylon and says that it contained a gold couch on which a woman spent the night alone. The god Marduk is also said to come and sleep in his shrine.. The likelyhood of such a shrine actually being found is sadly remote. Erosion has usually reduced the surviving ziggurats to a fraction of their original height, but textual evidence may yet provide more facts about the purpose of these shrines. In the present state of knowledge it is reasonable to assume that they developed from the temples on platforms with a shrine on top, which may well have housed the Sacred Marriage Rite as well as other ceremonies"(end quote).
Assyria imitated Babylonian ritual, joining west Scy. to Bab. territory as an arc of Iranian tradition around India.
chimera
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Nick
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Joined: 12-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 113 |
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 17:49 |
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dear friend how do answer this question.
Sakas were Avestian speaker had their capital in Zaranj Afghanistan long before 400BCE they were faced with Medians in the east near city of Zokhta. BTW the Scythian empired existed in eastern Iran (Modern Afghanistan like 500 years before reaching Europe.
And how do answer this question, the "zia" is eastern iranian word famous among pashtuns, at the same time found among Ossitics gergianians, Ukranian etc etc
If you want referance please ask for it.
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chimera
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Joined: 25-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 131 |
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 18:13 |
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Nick,
Your comments are the same as what we have written above. What are you questioning?
chimera
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 28-Jan-2007 at 19:28 |
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to Nick
The Sakas inhabited regions to the north of Iran. The people who inhabited "eastern Iran i.e. Afghanistan" were the Bactrians.
The trajectory of the Saka ("Scythians" properly so-called) was through the Caucasus because because they were chasing the remnant of the Cimmerians.
There was supposedly a marriage treaty between Bartatua, king of the Scythians and Esarhaddon, king of the Assyrians, c. 670 BC, but the Scythians did not gain dominion over the Medes until about 652 BC.
The Greeks already knew that the Scythians were present in the Ukraine since the late 8th century BC - see Hesiod, c. 720 BC. Your chronology is backwards.
Russians and Ukrainians speak Slavonic languages, not Iranic languages. Other than Iranic loanwards, the common characteristic between to two language families is that they are both satem language families.
Ossetic is an Eastern Iranian language, probably derived from some Sarmatian dialect or more specifically Alanic.
Again, there is no debate that there are loanwards (as well as shared words) between Iranic and Slavic, but that does not make Slavic a Iranic subset. The words for "door", "two", and "cow" for instance are shared by all IE languages, therefore word comparisons don't tell the whole story.
That is right, and so I also use Assyrian and Old Persian sources as well.
The Tocharians originated in eastern Sinkiang, where the Chinese knew them by various names including Ta-yuezhi. The Ta-yuezhi were chased out of their original abodes and went northwestward where they met and chased out the Saka living in the region between Lake Balkhash and the Issyk Kul. Those Saka made their way into Sogdiana. The Tocharians were then pushed out by the Wusun and in turn they pushed out the Saka into Bactria and Gedrosia putting to an end the Greco-Bactrian kingdom (c. 135 BC). Gedrosia then became known as Sakastana (Sistan) by the Persians. The Tocharians eventually took over Bactria (northern Afghanistan) it it became known as Tukharistan. Hence, Sistan and Tukharistan were two different places[/quote]
Here's the fallacy of your arguement. You are making the assumption that all Eastern Iranian influence was the result of the wanderings of one people speaking one language, when history records a multiplicity of peoples which spoke Eastern Iran languages. The Sakas were only just one group which spoke Eastern Iranic. There were also the Bactrians, Sogdians, Chorasmians, etc. None of these groups are considered "Sakas". Even among the Sakas, there were a multiplicity of tribes speaking their own language or dialect. According to information gathered by Herodotus from the Scythians, there were seven languages spoken for trade from the region of the Scythians to the region of the Arimaspians (i.e. the greater part of Central Asia). These same peoples warred against each other, therefore there was no such thing as some unified nomadic nation spreading its influence throughout Eurasia. |
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 02:45 |
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to chimera
Nevertheless, it seems rather strange that Herodotus did know a Scythian tradition that does not mention any serpent motif - the Targitaos legend. Diodorus's "Scythian legend" is 400 years later.
What is the proof that they had "Brahmins" (an Indic term?)
which can be attributed to Sanskrit influence on the Silk Road.
Unless brahmin influence can be verified among the Scythians (properly so-called) the "logic" is merely an hypothesis.
We know that according to Sanskrit documentation, the Kamboja were one of the 16 "great kingdoms" in the beginning of the 6th century BC. The Saka do not enter India until the 1st century BC.
As far as geography went, the Saka came from the western Sinkiang region. In order for them to have even come into contact with the Scythians, they would have had to have crossed Sogdiana, Chorasmia, the lands inhabited by proto-Alanic tribes, and various Sarmatian tribes, before they even reached the Scythians which in the period in question were restricted to the Tauric peninsula and the Dobrudja.
I've already alluded to Kamboja presence in Hindu literature.
Otherwise I can fault very little of the rest of the statement. True, the situation in northwestern India in the late 2nd century BC was a mixture of petty Greek, Saka, and Parthian dynasties, vying for domination.
And so the information given by these 2nd century sources must stand as is without attributing them some Pontic Scythian origin or contact.
So much misconception!!! For starters the "Sacred Marriage" is very ancient, attributed to the Sumerians, hence far too early to be attributed to Scythians. The earliest the Scythians had contact with the Middle East was about 670 BC when they were in contact with the Assyrians.
Second, the "Sacred Marriage" had nothing to do with snakes. Any honest reading of Herodotus will confirm that. All this is doing is reading far more into existing text than warranted.
Third, the kings or temple were never called "Kambuzi" or any other similiar name. The temple was called Esagila and the kings was called shar.
Utter fallacy. Considering the implausibility from both chronological and cultural description, everything else is academic. The only thing plausible from the above, is that Assyria imitated Babylonia.
The Scythians had contact with the Assyrians by about 670 BC. Then they conquered the Medes by about 650 BC. Now we have two ways that the Scythians, so early on could have made it to India: Either by the Eurasian steppe route, or by the Iranian plateau. Now let's look at the problems:
1. If they took the steppe route, they would have had to have conquered the Sarmatians, Issedonians, Massagetae, Chorasmians, Sogdians, and Bactrians, before they even meet the first Indo-Aryans, such as the Paropamisadae, to the south of the Hindu Kush.
2. If they took the Iranian plateau route, they would have had to have conquered the Hyrcanians, Parthians, Margians, Arians, and Arachosians, before reaching India.
No such conquest is ever described in any extant source, unless we consider Chorasmian or Massagetian hegemonies described by ancient authors, or even the dreaded Tura incursions as described by the Avesta, that so plagued the agricultural Airya, although these happened in various different periods. |
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Nick
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Joined: 12-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 113 |
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 07:27 |
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Dear Sharrukin the information you have is really good, and if i was to live back in 1960s-1980s i would of believed you, since that was avalible at the time, i am not saying your wrong and i am trying to attack you either since you have your believe and i have mine, you might of read something different from me. You might know some that i am not aware of, and i might know something that your not aware off. People always disagree, and agree on different things, like the Jews and muslims, they both argue about who is wrong and whose right at the end they both agree that there is only one god. Do you know where i am getting to.
Even if The God himselves says I have a son or a brother thy muslims might disagree and say "Oh Allah you said you have no son or brother etc" So the same way our history changes there are some Facts which we can see, and there are some to discover. There are some things that we agree and there are some that we don't.
History Changes over time, 20 years ago Western People believe only that the Germanic are Aryan and that they invaded Afghanistan/Iran/India, but now with new genitic test and new discoveries both Genitic and history shows there was no German invasion, Aryans were not german and yet they found people from Eastern Iran like Nuristani Aryans invaded southern Europe and somehow over time their genes even reached UK.
The point i am trying to make is please research again over the Saka case. you might change alot of your ideas, I used to believe in just what you do right now. As i said history changes all the time.
Regarding Scythains, what we can say is that they were Eastern Iranians, (Or at least that's what most researchers belive in)
Yes the Bactrians are modern Afghans. And Bactrian Langauge is also known as Avestian today its call Pakhtriou/Pakhtu and the Bactrians were the Scythians.
As time past it was during 1990s that More Europeans were interested in Sakas/Scythians and wanted to know more about them, during that time many movies were also made, to open this new history of Scythains to the world. Offcourse poor Eastern Iranian would not know and nor would they care about such people, even thought Sakazia was in their History books and the largest tribe.
As more Discoveries were made in early 1990s it was concluded that Scythain also lived in Eastern Iran, like Bactria so they concluded that Scythians invaded Bactria/Afghanistan and went into india. At the same time there was something fishy and a conflict which was not noticed until late 1990s. Where did the original Scythians lived and where did Aryans come from?
Here this is from a Iranian source they used the same old books from late 1990s. Here we have the same old theory of Aryan invasion. BTW by now we all know That Aryans did not invaded Eastern Iran or Afghanistan. Right!. But was not proven back then, so Sctyhians were counted as non-Aryanic group.
As we know that Greeks had hard time with Bactrians and therefore the Greeks had to share power with Bactrian royal (Ruxana) in order to share power and move into southern Bactria into india. Romans never reached Bactria but maintianed a good relationship with Afghans (Like Kushans). So much of these articles are non-sense.
Dear freind discoveries of 2004 by Russians have solved the problem, Scythians were not after Cimmerians/sammerians in fact they were brothers and sisters. Cimmerians were the Parthains and Scythians were the Pakhtrians/Bactrians. This get very confussing, i can provide more new sources
Yeah but they were talking about Parthians/Cimmerians not Scythians. And we don't know much about Hesiod since not much was recorded.
Dear i didn't say they spoke Iranic language but were influnced by Scythian Aryan group who had ruled the area for long time.
No Ossetic is Eastern Iranian langauge related to Avesta and is very close to Pashtu. And off the Altic language. BTW where did you get the Altic language from?
You have used the late version, as we know Scythains first came from East according to Medes (Since Medes were the frist to have conflict with Scythains) but to Assyrians they were from North, that's because of the silk route, Scythian could have gone streght from East to WEST, so they have to follow the silk route, which means passing Mazanderan into Azerbijan and then coming south where they later meet assyrians, And since having problem with medes. Scythians chose to help Assyrians and at the same time promised not to interfer in Assyria so the Scythians continued their roots (Back into the north where some belive problem with the Cimmerians) moving them north West and kept moving into borders of Moscow.
Wait the Chinese sources are not clear, please provide a source. Cause we know the fact that Scythians were in Bactria and later had their capital at Zarhaj (1000 BCE), and you have used an old european source of belive for Tocharians. Tocharians were a tribe of Bactria who put a kings' name for themselves after their king who did not like the joint Greeko Empire, and wanted to end kingdom.
They were part of Bactria long before coming of Greeks, according to Cyrus his people were bordered with China.
Bactrian=Avestian
Saka=Bactrian
Cimmerians= Parthian
Sodgian (new north of Oxus river)=Mixed Greco+Bactrian+parthian
Partian= mixed assyrian+Median
The only langauges that we can identify today is Saka/Bactrian (Ossetic/Pashtu), Parthian (Kurdi), and Sodgian(Yougnobi), all most all of them being effected by other languages, but still you might want to listen to them, they sound almost the same.
BTW can you please provide some facts. thanks
Edited by Nick - 29-Jan-2007 at 17:33 |
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Afghanan
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Durr e Durran Joined: 12-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1098 |
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 13:46 |
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I've never said, nor has anybody in my family, nor anybody I know who speaks Pashto, ever referred to yes as "Da"
In our pashto (Logari pashto) the word for yes is "Wo" also spoken in different dialects I've heard as " Uwo, Ho (Yes), and sometimes Sha,Kha/Khu (Okay/Yes/Good) as said in improper Pashto.
Edited by Afghanan - 29-Jan-2007 at 13:47 |
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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
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chimera
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Joined: 25-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 131 |
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 15:17 |
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" na_kar a powerful scythian race having the serpent as their totem (Man.i. 16,15)(Ta.lex.) nak a naik, a corporal".
The Saka nakar snake is consistent with Ukraine Scy. of Herodotus, and either west or east Scy. mother-snake of Diodorus. Herod. says Targitaos was daughter of the river-god, as the Diod. snake was. I didn't write that west Scy. were Brahmin, but they "had Danu of Brahmins". I do not specify anyone as originating that snake-ancestor legend, but there "was an arc of influence".
Kambujiya I was father of Kurus II, who received the title "Kambujiya" at New Year, Babylon 538 BCE._"Story of Nations-Medes".Z Ragozin.
Encyc. Hebraica_"Cambyses". Marduk's viper-snake was present at the Tower of the Kambujiya when others had the ritual marriage. That is the connection with Cambodia's Naga cobra of the tower marriage, and the Kamboja name. The mother-snake of Scy. is confirmed by the Echidna viper of Dnieper being also Echidna snake-mother of Celts, carved on the Gundestrup Cauldron._ Parth.Alcman 30, Etymol. Mag 502, Diod. 5.24. Her sons were Skythes and Keltos (of DANUbe of Brahmins), both being warriors who pulled the archery-bow of "Herakles", as in "naik: corporal" of the Indian military. The energy of the Scythian nomad groups is reflected in the move by Iranian and Indian groups to build Angkor Wat.
chimera.
5.24
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Nick
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Joined: 12-Aug-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 113 |
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Posted: 29-Jan-2007 at 17:18 |
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dear friend there are more words then i can type, answer another question and be very careful how it spells, how do you say ear in Pakhto,
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 02:40 |
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What I want from you (just as I want from chimera) is to specify how your source or sources can draw the conclusions you've specified, because, frankly, what I know is what is believed today.
We are not arguing about the depthlessness that religion plays in Middle Eastern affairs, we are talking about how your source(s) arrive at his/their conclusions. We are obviously talking about what sources, both ancient and modern (inscriptions, ancient narratives, archaeology, linguistics, etc.) are being used to draw those conclusions.
If history has "changed" to the degree you describe, than I welcome you to provide from your sources the operational facts. Otherwise, again, what I know is what is currently believed.
There were scholars who actually knew the truth all along, but they were essentually silenced, by both popular belief and political machinery. Even Max Muller, the so-called father of the "Aryan theory" did not believe it. This is different from the positions we subscribe to, which claim findings up to today, through scholarly methods.
The point I am trying to make is for you to please take my challenges as opportunities to elaborate on your ideas with specific data.
In this, we are in agreement.
I would say that the Bactrians were a component of the modern Afghans, being the inhabitants of northern Afghanistan in ancient times.
The Avestan and Bactrian languages were related languages, true, but are considered separate languages in the same Eastern Iranian subgroup. There is in fact no agreement as to where Avestan was spoken, only that it was Eastern Iranic, and that Bactrian has the closest affinity to it. Saying that "Bactrian is Avestan" goes beyond what linguists are willing to say.
No ancient source considered the Bactrians as Scythians. According to the Avesta, the sedentary populations of eastern Iran were considered Airya while the hordes were called Tura. The Persians were quite specific as to who were considered "Saka" naming three groups - all of which were nomadic groups. The Bactrians were not considered Scythians by neither source. As a last source, the Kushans under Kanishka finally adopted the Bactrian language which they called "Aryan".
There is no dispute that the Saka made their presence known in Afghanistan, however, that presence can be traced back to the time of the Greco-Bactrian collapse.
And here is where we need to define our terms. Linguistics have recognized that place-names in eastern Iran do fall into two groups. It is recognized by linguists that the earlier list of eastern Iranian toponyms fall into the Indo-Aryan language group. It was only later that the Iranians either introduced place-names into those regions or Iranized the Indo-Aryan names. Now, if we are to recognize that these earlier groups had a nomadic ancestry, than we can say that all original speakers of Indo-Iranian languages were "Scythians". Otherwise, why single out the Bactrians, when - culturally speaking - the Sogdians and Chorasmians were much closer to the Sakas than the Bactrians? The Avesta did not know "Sakas" but did know Sairimas (western nomads), Airyas (central agriculturalists) and Turas (eastern nomads), at a time when "Airyanem vaeja" was located probably in the Chorasmian region.
If we then agree that "Scythians" and "Sakas" were regional groups, the task at hand makes it more understandable to manage historical peoples and tribes into a coherent narrative, rather than speak of some monumental "all-Scythian" bloc which influenced the greater part of Eurasia. This would be like saying that the "Turk" which possessed Eurasia from Mongolia to Hungary was some super-state, without regard to all the myriad tribes possessing that entire region, which warred upon each other. With few exceptions, the Turks, regardless of linguistic subset, could understand one another.
The Avesta knew of the population of eastern Iran as "Airyan nations".
How do they know that the "original population was largely Scythian"? In order for such to even be considered, there had to have been some form of cultural drift from the Eurasian steppe into Bactria analogous to the known culture of the later Scythians, observable in the archaeological record. That statement cannot stand on its own without more information.
While it is true that Alexander had some problems with the Bactrians under Bessus, he ultimately subjugated them. There was no sharing of power.
Kushans were not Afghans, they were one of the tribes comprising the Tocharians. It is better to say that they became part of the present-day Afghans, just like the Bactrians. It was under Kushan overlordship that Bactria became known as Tukharistan.
I failed to understand what you meant by "non-sense".
Please prove that the Cimmerians were the Parthians and Scythians were the Bactrians. The incursion of the Cimmerians was documented by the Assyrians who, keeping an eye out on their rivals the Urartians, reported back to the Assyrian king that the Cimmerians had defeated the Urarteans in 714 BC. The Assyrian king Sargon II was himself killed in a night attack by the Cimmerians in southern Anatolia in 705 BC. The Phrygian king Midas committed suicide when the Cimmerians invaded his kingdom in 696 BC. The Lydian king Gyges died when they invaded his Lydian kingdom in 652 BC. The Cimmerians were a terror in Anatolia until they were finally destroyed by about 640 BC by the joint efforts of the Lydians and the Assyrians. There is nothing which suggests that the Cimmerians migrated to Parthia from the Caucasus region, at least from narrative sources. Nevetheless, I am interested to know how your source arrives at that conclusion? If the Avesta is quite old, I must mention that the Bakhdi (Bactrians) are already mentioned in eastern Iran.
The Scythians settled a region near the Mannaean Kingdom which they cooperated with at first against the Assyrians but, as I've already mentioned, eventually formed an alliance with the Assyrians, by about 670 BC.
Ummm, no. The fragments of Hesiod we have do in fact specify the "Scythians". We do know something about Hesiod for the fact that he had recorded things about his own life, and he is generally dated to the late 8th century BC.
Then what did you mean when you said that the Scythian language was "still common among among Russians and Ukrainians", Slavonic peoples?
"Very close" could mean anything. How do you know if it was much closer to Sogdian, or Chorasmian, or even Sacian (Turfanese). Trying to link Ossetic to Pashtu itself presents some problems, due to distance. How do you even know it was derived from Scythian? Why not Sarmatian or Alanic? Vernadsky had a theory that the Alanian tribes was known as the "As" and that the Ossetes bear a name which is a derivative of that name.
You mean the Alanic language - from the Alans.
Please cite the sources of your so-called "early version". My sources range from contemporaries from the 8th to the 4th centuries BC.
The Chinese said a great deal on the movements of western peoples, among which were the migrations of the Sakas and Tocharians (whom they called Ta-yuezhi)
It is only a "fact" when proof is provided. Thus far there is nothing to suggest that Bactrians were Scythians, at least nothing to suggest that they were any different than any other Iranic-speaking people, with respect to language or culture. If Bactrians were Scythians, then all other Iranic peoples were also Scythian.
And you are again wrong about my source material. The above description comes from Chinese sources.
What are you talking about? We do not know anything about Tocharians in Bactria until their invasion, about 135 BC (both Greek and Chinese sources). It becomes quite evident that they did not even know Bactrian, since, after their invasion, they were writing in Greek but only adopted "Aryan" (i.e. the Bactrian language) toward the beginning of the reign of Kanishka, in about AD 100.
Cyrus did not know about the Tocharians or Tukharistan. You cannot cite any of his inscriptions to prove that. As a matter of fact, neither did the rest of the Achaemenid kings. We have their inscriptions, and while they do mention Bakhtrish (Bactria), they never mention Tukharistan. "Tukharistan" is a much later place-name.
Thus far, you provide nothing to show any substance for the first three "equivalents". The Sogdians were already mentioned in the Zend Avesta as the Sughdhas, hence they had nothing to do with Greeks or even Parthians until a much later period.
As for the Parthians, both Greek and Persian sources agree that they were different peoples. According to Assyrian sources, they only conquered the Medes and were unwilling to proceed any further east except for brief raids, but nothing more. The Assyrians stayed mainly near their homeland.
That terminology is yet to be proven. I await your response
Wrong. Pahlavi and Kurdish are different languages although they are both Western Iranic languages
If they are that similiar, than they are all "Scythian" languages. Therefore all Iranic languages are Scythian languages.
Well, based on how you judge "facts", I'll be very hard-pressed to find something you would agree with.
Anyways, I'll be waiting until you present some yourself, thanks. Edited by Sharrukin - 31-Jan-2007 at 02:52 |
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TeldeInduz
General 
Joined: 07-Mar-2006 Location: Paraguay Online Status: Offline Posts: 857 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 06:59 |
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 09:58 |
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Targitaos was a male......
But what does "Danu of Brahmins" mean? In Sanskrit literature, the term is quite clear.
Is this author trying to say that Cyrus was a Cambyses II?
No description of the "Sacred Marriage" mentions any snake. Again, this ritual was millennia old before any contact with Scythians.
Without the Babylonian connection, this theory is flawed.
While it is true that "serpents" are carved into the Gundestrup Cauldron, nothing of significence is attached to them. What is prominent is the "horned figure" probably representing Cernunnos.
The children of Echidna were Greek monsters. The sons of the serpent-female did not include "Celtos".
No Scythian "energy" was required to make it to Angkor Wat. This could have easily been the result of Hindu missionary "energy", since we know that Hinduism did gain a strong influence on the Silk Road.
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chimera
Samurai
Joined: 25-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 131 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 18:56 |
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OK, Targitaos was the son of the water-nymph daughter of the river-god.
Kurus was the father of Kambujiya II, but the Bab. title of Kurus was also Kambujiya, indicating the close links of Pers./Bab. cultures. The sirrush mushushu snake was the escort-companion of Marduk, and logically was connected with Marduk at the Tower. I wrote that I don't specify who originated the snake-legend, and I'm not claiming that Scythians were the major source of tradition. The Sakas entered India through that previously Bab.-Persian territory. As "degraded kshatriyas". Kamboj and Scyth. supported Danu who with Indra killed Vritra , a Brahmin. So Scyth. were brahmanic, not Brahmins. Pers./Skt "braman(i)ya" means "reverently".
Cernunnos holds the viper-snake as the major animal, and in his other hand he holds the sacred Celtic torc. It is "vipere/ guivre" as "life-giver" and produces men in French myth. Keltos is the son of that snake in the refs. I gave above. Saka Scythians controlled the Punjab, and were in contact with Parthians from whom they learned much, such as planned-cities, dams and high-arch building. "Babylon" AK GRayson.
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Khashayarshah
Janissary 
Joined: 31-May-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 30-Jan-2007 at 20:40 |
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We are not arabs! everybody calls us arabians, when we have different
roots from them! they thing we are the same because we are all from the
middle east!
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Who is the real fool? the man who says what to do, or the man that follows him?
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 02:47 |
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Nothing is said that Targitaos's mother was a "water-nymph", only that she was "daughter" of the Borysthenes. This river is the Dnieper, and the river name itself is in the masculine.
Kambujiya, or more correctly Kanbujiya, was not even a Babylonian term. It was definitely Iranic, hence no relation to Semitic Babylonia.
There is no agreement as to what was the relationship between the mushushu and Marduk. Some say that the mushushu was/were the companion/s of Marduk while others say that it/them was/were simply manifestations of Marduk, himself. What is known is the following:
1. the mushushu was a composite creature - lion/snake/eagle - hence, not all serpent.
2. the image of Marduk proceeded into the temple without any other image.
Fair enough.
Babylonia never ruled eastern Iran, but the Persians did.
This was not the earliest version. According to the earliest version of the story, as told in the Rg Veda, Indra killed Vritra and then killed the monster's mother, Danu. No Kambojas or Scythians were involved. Vritra only becomes a brahmin in a much later period.
The Scyth only became "brahmanic" after they settled in India, after 100 BC, when they came into contact with Indian Hinduism.
While this interpretation of the figures on the cauldron conforms to what we know of ancient Celtic belief, the Celtic conception of the Serpent simply does not conform to the beliefs of the Babylonians or the Indo-Iranians. Far too much is read into the serpent motifs of those southern peoples to try to conform them with Celtic belief.
But, only in a later period. Apparently your source has no regard to chronology.
What is verifiable is that the Saka gained control of the Punjab, and were in contact with the Parthians, and probably learned certain things, but they also came into contact with brahmanic India itself, which also could have been a source for learning about planned-cities, dams, etc. as well as the Danu legend.
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Suren
Arch Duke 
Chieftain Joined: 10-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1673 |
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 03:30 |
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the south eastern provine of iran is called sistan=sakestan=sakastan and they were most influenced by helenic and persian culture.
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Anfører
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chimera
Samurai
Joined: 25-Jan-2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 131 |
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 05:21 |
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Traditions develop over time, and the Scyth. support of the Brahmin dis-approved Danu likely led to Brahmins later defining Vritra as a Brahmin. That Dnieper river (of Dana and Danaya female/male) of the Echidna viper-woman (of 4th centBC) is the Danube of the Celtic Echidna "phaiper", which may have appeared long before Alcman's time, or shortly before. The timing is not relevant to the fact of snake-mother legend in Europe and Angkor. The Babylonian tradition as I wrote, only relates to the snake accompanying Marduk at the marriage. Bab. "kambuzi(a)" is also in Aramaic, and the word "may well " relate to Hebrew "cham.buts" meaning "mercy. robe of priests and kings":_ letter from head Rabbi in Australia. My point is not to make an Iran:India comparison, and India of course influenced and inspired Angkor's temple-building. But the Danu/snake-ancestor/square-temple with central-point background of west Asia-Europe was a widespread impetus for Angkor.
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Afghanan
Chieftain
Durr e Durran Joined: 12-Jun-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1098 |
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Posted: 31-Jan-2007 at 14:42 |
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In our Pakhto we say, "Ghwag" for ear.
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The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
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Sharrukin
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Joined: 04-Aug-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1314 |
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Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 02:30 |
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This sounds reasonable, but we must note that this must have occurred after the time the Saka entered India (after 100 BC).
I realize that your premise is to link Danu of the Irish/Scots with Danu of the Hindus (and thus hence to Angkor) using the Scythians as an intermediary. But, in doing so, you've redefined motifs of several peoples to fit in with that strained premise. The very name "Danu" itself can be taken back even further in time to the proto-Indo-Europeans. In the end what we have are a series of improbabilities or misconceptions for form a very precarious premise. The links simply don't add up.
of which there wasn't even a snake, rather a combination of three animals.
Babylonian, kambuzia, comes from Old Persian, Kambujiya, and so therefore dates from after the Persian conquest of Babylonia (i.e. after 539 BC). If there is an Aramaic variant, it only reflects the Persian province of Babylonia (Old Persian, Babirush which encompassed various Aramaean lands which included Syria itself. The governors of Persian Babylonia styled themselves "governor of Babylonia and Across the River", the form "Across the River" being Syria, Phoenicia, and Palestine.
Now, on the other hand there is no debate that "Kambujiya" and "Kamboja" are related, but it does not even have to take the one to be directly related to the other. We already have a Kamboja Kingdom attested by about 600 BC, and so a relation to the Persian king is really not necessary. It is just sufficient to say that the two names are related because of their common Indo-Iranian background.
The only thing that can be said about Angkor is that the impetus came from India. There is no evidence that the Scythians brought Danu (and the serpent motif) to India, since we already have the serpentine Danu already recorded in Vedic times.
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