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Iranians root in Central asia
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    Posted: 22-Jan-2007 at 11:55
Gok_Toruk
You're not in the position to tell me how Turkmens are. No 'Qyzylbash' lives in Turkmenistan.
 
And your in no position to tell me, you arn't "everybody" and don't represent everybody neither do I, so this argument is pointless.
 
Did I say Qizilbash live in Turkmenistan? I said not all Afshar and Bayat are Qizilbash, many are not and they are Turkmen.
 
Gok_Toruk
You don't know anything about Central Asia and people's view. "Iki Devlet, Bir Millet' is supported only by a small number of Pan-Turks. Public doesn't agree with you on your thoughts. Are you really teaching me the situation of Central Asia?
 
Don't I? and since when did you become the onmipotent voice that decides all huh.
 
What has it got to do with Pan-Turks, its logic? these views are being adopted by the state. Who are you to represent the public, I simply stated that there are people who have these views
 
 
Gok_Toruk
This is the least thing on which I agree with you. you don't have the final say over anything neither do I. But the thing is that you're not a Turkmen for sure; simply because you don't know Turkmens well.
 
The world doesn't revolve around you, it doesn't matter what you think, the reality matters.
 
 
Gok_Toruk
Bulldog, it makes me laugh; you're serious on telling me about Turkmens and Turkmenistan? Turkmens have said 'yes' to Central Asia, but that's because they share the borders, culture, language, and even the people. But to join the 'Turkic United State' Turkey supports, it's just 'no'.
 
Who said anything about a "united" state, as I clearly stated today it's gone past romantism and nationalism, today were talking foreseeable potentials. There are already existing states, it's more logical for them to form a federal or close ties say like EU does. What has it got to do with Turkey? and how is this all Turkey's idea, there are lots of movements outside Turkey that support this. Kazakistan President wrote to all the Turkic leaders with his proposal, there are Turkic summits where these are being discussed. Turkey is not the "leader" neither is it more "important", the empahsis should be on balance equality. Plus the first step will be Central Asian Turkic states creating our club, Turkey and Azerbaycan can join aswell if they wish, why exclude them? they're Turks aswell.
 
Gok_Toruk
Did Kazakstan say 'yes' to 'Turkic United State'? 
 
Kazakistan President wrote to all the Turkic leaders with his proposal, Turkmenistan is in favour so is Kirgizistan but it won't happen over night, nor be easy.
It's not a new idea. In fact, I know this idea since I was born. But could you please show us any treaty or such relationship (with Turkey)? Did Kazakstan say 'yes' to 'Turkic United State'? What about Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Kyrkizestan? It's not my own idea. If people agreed on such a thing, so we should have had this establishes so far.


Edited by Bulldog - 22-Jan-2007 at 12:46
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About Iraq Turkmens, no need to complicate matter's, just watch them and then you can see how they actually speak.
 
Turkmeneli Tv
 
 
It's a neat channel.
 
Alot of Iraqi Turkmen are Bayat, Iraqi Turkmen Turkish is practically the same as Azeri Turkish and Turkish spoken in South Eastern-Eastern Turkey.
 
 


Edited by Bulldog - 22-Jan-2007 at 12:44
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2007 at 13:46

Guys, with due respect, this is not a discussion thread for Turkic groups, it gets very messy when there are such radically different discussions in a topic.
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2007 at 14:37

Sorry about that Zagros.

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Posts: 0 		  Quote Apo-Init Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 16:39
Originally posted by Zagros

If that was the case then some of their char skinned, blue eyed, descendants would be among us Iranians today. It is glazed brickwork and is obviously discoloured.  The hand, neck and face are different shades.  It would be interesting to even see black Asiatics of the sort described from Iran.  There are people with such dark skin in Iran but their features are more consistant with African ancestry.

I find it interesting how the lower robe and the arrow sheath also are the same colour as the face.  The arrow case at least would not have been so dark... It is pretty obvious that it is the result of decay.
 
Here is a well preserved depiction of the battle of Issus created 13 years after the event:
 
 
 
LOL  LOL  Sorry, but paint decay does the opposite and lightens the original paint color.  The only cases of paint being darkened is in the case of chemicals such as acid.
 
There is no need to show me pictures of Persians, as I already know how Persians and most modern Iranians look like.  What I am referring to were the indigenous Elamites and how they were depicted.  Even today in rural parts of southern Iran all the way to Baluchistan there are black peoples (of non African ancestry).
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Apo-Init Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 16:44
Originally posted by sirius99

even some greek artifact show greeks with dark skin but it doesn't mean they were african blacks. If you go to some vilages in Iran you can see farmers that work every day under Sun has darker skin but those that doesn't work under sun has fair skin. this happens almost in every country and it is a simple fact.
 
Ermm  And again, please point out where I have ever said these people were "African"?!!  I hope you understand that there were and still are various indigenous black populations outside of Africa!
 
As for the Greeks, I would not get into that right now but let's just say the Aegean area was also inhabited by heterogenous populations including some from Africa as genetics and even archaeology has shown.
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Posts: 0 		  Quote Apo-Init Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 16:59
I find it interesting that everything in this forum pertaining to Iranian history is always about the Persians, Medes, and other Indo-Iranian speaking peoples but virtually nothing is said of their indigenous predecessors.
 
Does anyone here know anything about ancient Elamite history and culture which is contemporaneous to Sumer??
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Originally posted by Apo-Init

Originally posted by Zagros

If that was the case then some of their char skinned, blue eyed, descendants would be among us Iranians today. It is glazed brickwork and is obviously discoloured.  The hand, neck and face are different shades.  It would be interesting to even see black Asiatics of the sort described from Iran.  There are people with such dark skin in Iran but their features are more consistant with African ancestry.

I find it interesting how the lower robe and the arrow sheath also are the same colour as the face.  The arrow case at least would not have been so dark... It is pretty obvious that it is the result of decay.
 
Here is a well preserved depiction of the battle of Issus created 13 years after the event:
 
 
 
LOL  LOL  Sorry, but paint decay does the opposite and lightens the original paint color.  The only cases of paint being darkened is in the case of chemicals such as acid.
 
There is no need to show me pictures of Persians, as I already know how Persians and most modern Iranians look like.  What I am referring to were the indigenous Elamites and how they were depicted.  Even today in rural parts of southern Iran all the way to Baluchistan there are black peoples (of non African ancestry).
 
Paint that lightens is not decaying, it is wearing. Particular attention to wording would be of use to you.
 
My choice of the word decay was very particular. Do you have any idea what paints were made from in ancient times? Colours such as that used for the skin and arrow sheath were derived from a composite of organic material such as blood.  So it decays over time and becomes a charred colour, the same as those immortals and a decaying corpse.
 
And why is the skin on the hand a different shade from that on the neck and from that on the face? Because the colour has decayed at different rates, perhaps due to the different condition of the glazing over those area giving the paint varied protection.
 
---
 
I know Baluchis are dark, but they are dark bronze, they are not charcoal coloured. Show me a Baluchi with charred skin like that, bonus points if you can find one with blue eyes and charred skin.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Zagros - 23-Jan-2007 at 17:11
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2007 at 17:16
Originally posted by Apo-Init

I find it interesting that everything in this forum pertaining to Iranian history is always about the Persians, Medes, and other Indo-Iranian speaking peoples but virtually nothing is said of their indigenous predecessors.
 
Does anyone here know anything about ancient Elamite history and culture which is contemporaneous to Sumer??
 
There are a few threads actually, such as that of the burnt-city, but the obvious reason for this is that no-one identifies with them, they are an extinct people without a living legacy, unlike the mentioned Irano-phones.
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Posts: 1831 		  Quote gok_toruk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Jan-2007 at 05:51

I'll take Zagros up on that. It's not the place to argue about Turkic states.

You're trying to teach me who Turkmens are and the way they happen to believe. So, why don't you bring your Turkmen friends who agree with you? 
 
Yes, I'm not the representative for Turkmenistan. But I wouldn't believe you. You're a foreigner who doesn't know about the culture here, doesn't speak Turkmen, can't distinguish a Turkmen even from Qyzylbash, Turkish Turkmen or Iraqi Turkmen.
 
You don't believe in me either, since I'm a Turkmen who doesn't agree with a foreigner.
 
Take your time, look around and maybe you'll get inspired.


Edited by gok_toruk - 24-Jan-2007 at 06:08
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Originally posted by Apo-Init

I find it interesting that everything in this forum pertaining to Iranian history is always about the Persians, Medes, and other Indo-Iranian speaking peoples but virtually nothing is said of their indigenous predecessors.

Actually, I am really interested in the Elamite people since I believe they are the ancestors of my best friend whom I grew up with.
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find it interesting that everything in this forum pertaining to Iranian history is always about the Persians, Medes, and other Indo-Iranian speaking peoples but virtually nothing is said of their indigenous predecessors.
 
Well, this thread obviously isn't the place to discuss the issue.  Apparently there are forumers who have expressed their interest in the subject, so perhaps you may want to begin a thread on those peoples. 
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To reverse the question, how far did Iranian culture travel? The Scythians were perhaps the world's most wide-spread rulers before the British.
They ruled parts of Hungary, Poland, west China, north India and evidently influenced Cambodia, and thus Java and east Australia. The Iranian Kamboj were the major people of "Cambodia", the title of Cyrus and his father, "Kambuzia/ Kambujiya/ Cambyses". Evidently, Iranians were influential in Babylonia of kambuzia, which reached Egypt. Possibly "Middle World" fits more than "MIddle East."
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To reverse the question, how far did Iranian culture travel? The Scythians were perhaps the world's most wide-spread rulers before the British.
 
Well, not precisely.  We need to bare in mind that the term "Scythian" can be used in more than one sense.  For instance, to the Greeks, not only were the westernmost nomadic peoples known as "Scythians" but also, more eastern peoples, hence the term can be used in a more generic sense of "Eurasian Iranic nomad", or even "Central Asian nomad" without respect to ethnicity.  Herodotus was aware that seven languages were spoken in central Asia for purposes of trade (Book 4.25), and archaeologists are aware of various different cultures in the region.
 
Herodotus could talk about the Scythians (properly so-called), the Sarmatians, Issedones, Budini, Massagetians, Arimaspians, Argippaeians, Sacians, etc.  All were more or less independent of each other.
 
Hence, while the British were one nation, it is more accurate to say that the "Scythians" or rather "Iranians" being many nations, were very widespread.  That being said, the best comparison would be the "Turkic tribes" which at one time spread from Mongolia to Austria.
 
They ruled parts of Hungary, Poland,....
 
It is more accurate to say that Hungary and Poland were subject to Scythian campaigns or raids, especially in the 5th century BC, but the Scythians returned to their homes north of the Black Sea.  However, it may be true that Sarmatian tribes had rule over Poland and Hungary.
 
......west China, north India and evidently influenced Cambodia, and thus Java and east Australia.
 
We know that the Saka ruled the westernmost region of Xinjiang and when many got pushed out of the northwesternmost region of Xinjiang they proceeded into India through easternmost Iran. 
 
The Iranian Kamboj were the major people of "Cambodia", the title of Cyrus and his father, "Kambuzia/ Kambujiya/ Cambyses". Evidently, Iranians were influential in Babylonia of kambuzia, which reached Egypt. Possibly "Middle World" fits more than "MIddle East."
 
There is a bit of uncertainty as to the origin of the Kamboj.  The most ancient Indian literature referred to them as having Kshatriya (warrior) status but were later "degraded".  Since the Indic and Iranic languages are closely related, the name "Kamboj" may have been common to both.  There is the idea that the original Kamboj were Indic but took on Iranian characteristics and abandoned much Hindu practice (hence their "degradation" for no longer receiving brahmanas).   The more popular theory however is that they were Iranics, originally from Central Asia ("Scythians") which migrated into northern India in the 9th century BC but eventually were Hinduised.  Needless to say, the later Kambojas were Hindus.
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 "the westernmost nomadic peoples known as "Scythians" but also, more eastern peoples, hence the term can be used in a more generic sense of "Eurasian Iranic nomad". Yes, these Iranian groups at various times in various degrees, reached from Hungary to Australia. Scythians entered Greek-Bactrian Punjab when Kamboj were influential there. Their Scyth.
 Naik snake ancestor at Sea of Azov became Naga snake-ancestor of Champa and Angkor Wat. That snake was identified with Brahmin Danu river-goddess of Scythian DNieper and Celtic DANUbe, and Danu of Ireland._John Koch. Advanced Welsh Studies, U.Wales. Danu has a temple in Bali, Indonesia.
Kamboj were near the Mount Meru region at times when the Vedas were developed 1500-500BCE. Kampuchea's dynasty fled from Thai invasion in 15th centCE, to Bali. Kambadjha is an Australian Aboriginal sacred site on a river where 3 men sailed from Ngareenbeil, "ngara" meaning "ceremony".  Negara means "national" in Malay, and was the state ceremonial-system in Brahmin Bali, and the origin of /nkhor/ "Angkor" and DevaNEGARA script. Danu may be in the Australian snake-god Goondi DANI Bulu, of the waters. Iranian deities were spread fom Ireland to Australia.(but less violently than British).
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 "the westernmost nomadic peoples known as "Scythians" but also, more eastern peoples, hence the term can be used in a more generic sense of "Eurasian Iranic nomad".
 
Yes, these Iranian groups at various times in various degrees, reached from Hungary to Australia. Scythians entered Greek-Bactrian Punjab when Kamboj were influential there. Their Scyth. Naik snake ancestor at Sea of Azov became Naga snake-ancestor of Champa and Angkor Wat. That snake was identified with Brahmin Danu river-goddess of Scythian DNieper and Celtic DANUbe, and Danu of Ireland._John Koch. Advanced Welsh Studies, U.Wales. Danu has a temple in Bali, Indonesia.
 
Again we have a problem.  Since the term naga is also a natural word in Sanskrit, meaning "snake" and is applied as the name of a Hindu tribe, as well as to various serpent-deities, and since Sanskrit and Sacian are related to each other, one cannot have precedence over the other.  It may well be that your Naik and Hindu naga are simply related terms, but not necessarily derived from the other.  In Kashmiri, naga has the meaning of "spring" indicating the relationship between the supernatural naga-deities and water. 
 
There is at least one interesting connection between India and central Asia.  The nagas were said to have been descended from Kasyapa, which some connect to the Caspian Sea.  It is rather coincidental that there was indeed a culture by the Caspian Sea called the Gorgan Grey Ware Culture.  Later "grey wares" appeared in northern India where we expect the earliest Indo-Aryans to have appeared.  J.P. Mallory tentatively identifies the possessors of the Gorgan Grey Ware as the possible proto-Indo-Aryans.   The naga-worship was perhaps something widespread among early Indo-Iranians, since the Caspian is not far from the Sea of Azov.  What is certain is that naga motifs are deeply ingrained in Hindu religion and its ancient literature uses the term, and so cannot be readily attributed to any foreign influence.
 
I've never heard about a Naik-serpent worship among central Asia Iranians.  Can you please cite original works on this?
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Originally posted by chimera

 "the westernmost nomadic peoples known as "Scythians" but also, more eastern peoples, hence the term can be used in a more generic sense of "Eurasian Iranic nomad". Yes, these Iranian groups at various times in various degrees, reached from Hungary to Australia. Scythians entered Greek-Bactrian Punjab when Kamboj were influential there. Their Scyth.
 Naik snake ancestor at Sea of Azov became Naga snake-ancestor of Champa and Angkor Wat. That snake was identified with Brahmin Danu river-goddess of Scythian DNieper and Celtic DANUbe, and Danu of Ireland._John Koch. Advanced Welsh Studies, U.Wales. Danu has a temple in Bali, Indonesia.
Kamboj were near the Mount Meru region at times when the Vedas were developed 1500-500BCE. Kampuchea's dynasty fled from Thai invasion in 15th centCE, to Bali. Kambadjha is an Australian Aboriginal sacred site on a river where 3 men sailed from Ngareenbeil, "ngara" meaning "ceremony".  Negara means "national" in Malay, and was the state ceremonial-system in Brahmin Bali, and the origin of /nkhor/ "Angkor" and DevaNEGARA script. Danu may be in the Australian snake-god Goondi DANI Bulu, of the waters. Iranian deities were spread fom Ireland to Australia.(but less violently than British).
chimera 
 
Wait i am lost, What are you guys talking about, how did we reached Thialand? Anyways Scythaian are native Eastern Iranian, Aryanic tribe of Pakhrian speaking, proven many times. They were united around 900 BCE and first moved towards Western Iran by 700 BCE, and into Europe by 450 BCE, they controlled a large area of South Europe, and current languages of Ossitic belong to them, which many other european languages borrought like slavik and Russian, etc etc, just because they were very influncial in Europe people just want to screw around.
 
And also regarding Kambojas were also Iranian people who tribe later moved into india.
 
According to French Indianist Alfred Foucher, "......the Kohistan, a mountainous area near Kabul might be the land of the Kambojas, of which we know very little, except that they were more Iranian than Indian and raised fine horses" .(La Vieille route de I'nde, p271, Dr Alfred Foucher)
 
Dr V. A. Smith seems to locate Kamboja in Tibet or within the Hindukush mountains ranges. (Early History of India, Ed IV, p 193). Dr Smith further states that the ancient Kambojas are supposed to have spoken an Iranian tongue. (op. Cit, p 184, fn).

 
http://www.kambojsociety.com/ancient.asp
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I can't find the Azov Naik again, but this is similar:
5070
24169); na_kar a powerful scythian race having the serpent as their totem (Man.i. 16,15)(Ta.lex.) nak a naik, a corporal (Santali) (Santali.lex. ...
www.hindunet.org/saraswati/dictionary/5070TO.HTM - 430k -
Scythians said that their ancestor was the DNieper (Danu) river snake-woman who lay with "Hercules"._ Diodorus 2.43  Herodotus 4.5-8.
The Kambuzi/ Kambujiya of Babylon climbed the Tower to meet the snake priestess, according to Herodotus. The king of Kampuchea climbed the tower of Angkor to meet the Naga ancestress, which makes her more than just a sacred naga. Thailand invaded and seized the Brahmins , and their descendants advise His Majesty today, but they can't get him to climb a tower to mate with a snake...
Thailand's palace has a gilded bronze carving in the form of the Persepolis horned lion. The Norwegian Embassy had an exhibition to show the close similarity of many details of Norse/Thai temples and dragon symbols. The 2 level roof and central tower shape is seen in Thailand, Burma, Nepal, Ukraine and Romania. Clement wrote that Brahmins influenced Greeks.
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what is the difference between turkmen and Gizilbash?
History is a farm. Nations are farmers. What they planted before will show what is going to grow tomorrow!
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Wait a moment.  There are certain things you took out of context.
 
I can't find the Azov Naik again, but this is similar:
5070

24169); na_kar a powerful scythian race having the serpent as their totem (Man.i. 16,15)(Ta.lex.) nak a naik, a corporal (Santali) (Santali.lex. ...

 
The "Scythians" which this article refers to, were the Saka.  Specifically, these Saka which came originally from the region of the western part of the Takla Makan, but were chased out by the Tocharians.  These eventually make it into western India by about 100 BC.   These were not the same "Scythians" which inhabited the Ukraine in ancient times.
 
A naik was a military rank in Indian armies (hence, the meaning of "corporal" in the article.)
 
Scythians said that their ancestor was the DNieper (Danu) river snake-woman who lay with "Hercules"._ Diodorus 2.43  Herodotus 4.5-8.
 
Again, the "Scythians" of India did not originate from the Ukrainian steppe.  Now to clear up some misconceptions.  Herodotus, the older source, does not say that this was a Scythian legend.  He said he got this story from Pontian Greeks.  Herodotus does say that the snake-woman lived in a place called Hylaia, the "Woodland" located by the Dnieper (and yes, it is Iranic for *Danu apara, "the river before" as opposed to the Dniester *Danu nastya, "the river after", (other rivers like the Donets, and the Don, "the river".  Diodorus, the younger source, does not give a locality for the snake-woman.
 
In neither source, is there a "Scythian" tribes called "Kamboja" or anything similiar.
 
The Kambuzi/ Kambujiya of Babylon climbed the Tower to meet the snake priestess, according to Herodotus.
 
There is no such description in Herodotus.
 
The king of Kampuchea climbed the tower of Angkor to meet the Naga ancestress, which makes her more than just a sacred naga. Thailand invaded and seized the Brahmins , and their descendants advise His Majesty today, but they can't get him to climb a tower to mate with a snake...
 
All this only ties in with India, nowhere else.
 
Thailand's palace has a gilded bronze carving in the form of the Persepolis horned lion. The Norwegian Embassy had an exhibition to show the close similarity of many details of Norse/Thai temples and dragon symbols. The 2 level roof and central tower shape is seen in Thailand, Burma, Nepal, Ukraine and Romania. Clement wrote that Brahmins influenced Greeks.
chimera
 
So there is a late Hindu influence on the Greeks, just as other peoples influenced the Greeks in an earlier period.  Clement (late 1st cent. AD) is only talking about what he knew in his time.  Nothing suggests a Scythian origin.


Edited by Sharrukin - 27-Jan-2007 at 16:19
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