Islamic conquest

Originally posted by azimuth it was adapted by Darius I to be official language of some parts of the Persian empire

well... actually no. Middle Persian (Pahlavi) was spoken from the borders of China to the Fertile Crescent from the 3rd century BC to ~ 10th century AD.

Originally posted by azimuth my point is that both Alphabet came from Aramatic and Arabic didnt go through the Pahlavi to be developed to what is it today

it did. you see, Persian is a influence language for poetry and its literature was just complete, on the other hand Arabic is not poetic, and Quran sounds poetic, right? (I don't understand it, but it sounds lyrical); hence, the reason of using Persian words in Quran is pretty much clear which is for its rhythmical sound.
THEREFORE, arabic DID go through the use of Pahvali language in both dialogues and literature. ALSO Persian was pushed to use the original Arabic when they were under the Islamic rules, so both languages were forced onto each other.

Originally posted by azimuth BTW i understood more than 50% of the Aramatic used in the "Passion of the Christ move" which proves the closeness

Yes indeed, that's because of the relation between Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic -- you already know it -- Aramaic and Hebrew are related, but Arabic and Persian are not and Arabic is similar to Hebrew and Aramaic in dialogues. on the other hand Persian is not related to these languages in dialects, only the scripts is similiar and some words (I'm not sure how many foreign words including Arabic exists in Persian).

Originally posted by azimuth i can read persian and former turkish alphabet, but i wont be able to understand the meanings the letters are similar

yes you can. of course you'll have problems pronoucing the words lol


lol anyway everything have happened hundreds and thousands years ago, so nothing can change the past now.
and dear azimuth, the Islamic Empires you're refering to didn't have so much of "God spirit" in them .

Edited by ramin

the Quran is arabic and the words in it are Arabic

Well the Quran in Turkey is Turkish. LOL. But do not underestimate the Persian alphabet. Like you have slaughtered them, tortured them, even captured their women, they did the similar thing to you in the Achaemenid days.

What you are calling arab is just the guys living in the arabic peninsula. You were one nation, Aramaics, Jews, Egyptians, Sumerians, Phoenecians, Cartageans, etc...

if there is words similar to the persian words, doesnt mean that it is persian it can be semitic words the persian took long time ago.

Yes, they can be Semitic words. But this day, we just know that these are Persian. We do not know the depths more than that.

and when i refer to the Arabic Alphabet was developed from the Aramatic Alphabet ,  it is  just the Alphabet not the Language , the Arabic language is as old as the Aramatic and the Hebrew.

They are different dialects of the same language, mate what the hell are you talking about?

But lets come to the main topic. Iranians are today muslim not because of their will. You forced them to do so and now you behave like you did the right thing. That is strange. You say Quran is arabic, mate we have Turkish Quran written in latin alphabet, have your read it? Is that a death penalty? Should I be blead to death?

Anyway, you guys Iranians and Arabs, in history hit each other a lot. Final strike was the arabic one... May be next time, Persians will convert you to ism...

Edited by HulaguHan

Originally posted by HulaguHan the Quran is arabic and the words in it are Arabic Well the Quran in Turkey is Turkish. LOL.

i didnt understand what you mean by that

the WORDS of the Quran can be transilated from Arabic to another language for porposes like learning and teaching.

but that does not mean that the transilation can be treated as QURAN

there are only one way of praying and reading the Quran and it is the ARABIC way

 

Mate, are you guys uber-mensch or something like that? Why should it be arabic but not Chinese or Japanese?

Originally posted by azimuth Originally posted by HulaguHan Mate, are you guys uber-mensch or something like that? Why should it be arabic but not Chinese or Japanese? because it came in Arabic to the Prophet (PBUH) and God chose Arabic to be the language of the Quran.

Do you know how God think?

The main aim of religion is to give "right way" to all humanity. We know it is so by translating it to Turkish.

Do you think God wants Muslims pray without understanding anything? 

Language is only a mediator nothing more. I do not think that God had chosen Arabic to be the language of Quran. Quran is Arabic since the prophet was an Arab so the language must be Arabic. What does it mean a holy book written in Japanese in an Arab society?

Do you think Arabs were a chosen race by God?   

Edited by Alparslan

Originally posted by Alparslan Do you know how God think?

as a muslim i believe that the Quran is God's words and from that and the Prophet's Hadiths we know what God wanted.

i suggest you read the Quran to know that the Quran was chosen by God to be in Arabic

Originally posted by Alparslan The main aim of religion is to give "right way" to all humanity. We know it is so by translating it to Turkish. Do you think God wants Muslims pray without understanding anything?

yes you can transilate the Meaning of the Words but that does not considered as Quran , that is a Transilation of the Words in the Quran.

 

L

Originally posted by Alparslan anguage is only a mediator nothing more. I do not think that God had chosen Arabic to be the language of Quran. Quran is Arabic since the prophet was an Arab so the language must be Arabic. What does it mean a holy book written in Japanese in an Arab society?

well i suggest you read the Quran to re check if the Quran chosen or not chosen by God to be Arabic or you think that the Quran came to the Prophet in different language and the Prophet changed it to Arabic?

for example check surat AL-Shuaraa aayah 190

surat AL-Ahqaf aayah 12 and surat Fusilat aayah 3

the Quran was made for all the people at all times WHICH mean that it does not need any update or change

and if it did there are nobody qulified to update or change the words of God that why God sent Prophets.

 

Originally posted by Alparslan do you think Arabs were a chosen race by God?

no and this sound like Jewish mentality

you are trying to change everything to Turkish even the word Allah is not Good enough for you and want to put another word to insted of it, well since you are starting a new religion then dont pray facing Makka, pray facing Ataturk Tomb.

i think that you are luky that Saudi Arabia Allowed you to enter the Holiest lands of Makka and Medina

 

since when the Quran Transilations used in the Pryers?

since when the Turkish didnt know how to at least read the Quran?

by changing the Alphabet and changing the religion you think that you will be Advanced?

well it is what 60 years and you still Beging Europe for that membership

does it worth all that?

Originally posted by ramin Originally posted by azimuth if there is words similar to the persian words, doesnt mean that it is persian it can be semitic words the persian took long time ago. I can discuss roots of those words later if you want to.

well yes

but iam not at home untill next year and there where i have the Arabic to Arabic meanings.

 

I think we should pray to the arabic people, lets forget god, lets just remember the arabs. Lets turn back to Mecca, pray for the arabs. Pray for the holy days, the holy conquest of British of Hijaz, the holy muslim American soldiers guarding saudis.

Heil arabs, ubermensch...

Forget the god because in this issue, he forgets you, infact I think he forgot world.

 

EDIT: Hulagu Han knew the business.

Edited by HulaguHan

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by azimuth as a muslim i believe that the Quran is God's words and from that and the Prophet's Hadiths we know what God wanted. i suggest you read the Quran to know that the Quran was chosen by God to be in Arabic I suggest you learn the fact that, Caliph Uthman was one of the rivals of Prophet Mohammad, lets not say rivals, he was not liked by him at all. And add the fact that Umayyad Caliph Muaviye is son of Ebu Sufyan.

 i am a sunny muslim and i didnt study sh*ttie way
what you consider a "Fact" and you are suggesting me to learn is considered lies to us sunnies so according to the sunnie sources which are the Hadiths and Seerah of the Prophet, Caliph Uthman was one of the closest freinds of the Prophet (PBUH) so he was not rival as you say.

any way what does that has to do with what i wrote? do you mean that the Quran is NOT Gods words?
if Caliph Uthman made it up or changed it, then i guess the Quran you transilated to Turkish is different from the one we have.
please explain more i may misunderstood you.

 

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by azimuth yes you can transilate the Meaning of the Words but that does not considered as Quran , that is a Transilation of the Words in the Quran. well i suggest you read the Quran to re check if the Quran chosen or not chosen by God to be Arabic or you think that the Quran came to the Prophet in different language and the Prophet changed it to Arabic? for example check surat AL-Shuaraa aayah 190 surat AL-Ahqaf aayah 12 and surat Fusilat aayah 3 the Quran was made for all the people at all times WHICH mean that it does not need any update or change and if it did there are nobody qulified to update or change the words of God that why God sent Prophets. Quran never mentions how the foreigners to behave, you are an arab, you do not need to translate it, but Turkish and Iranian muslims should do.

as i said before you can transilate the meaning of the Words in the Quran, you can do that to learn and know what are you saying and if somethings not described in details in the Quran the Prophet showed us how to pray and how people to behave toward the Quran.
there are more than 1.2 billion muslims around the world and the Arabic speaking Muslims are a minority of less than 25% or 20% and all of them pray in Arabic and read the Quran in Arabic untill some turkish changed that.
that has nothing to do with Arabic people , the Quran came in Arabic language to the Prophet and thats is a Fact.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by Azimuth no and this sound like Jewish mentality But You have the Jewish mentality, you say God prefers Quran and all islam to be arabic. You say it. Jews say that too, God prefered Jews (Another Arabic tribe) to be the best.

i didnt Say God prefers Quran and all Islam to be Arabic.
i Said God chose Arabic to be the language of the Quran
and we belive that God can do what he like without us questioning him.
Jews belive that they are the chosen one, we dont think that we are the chosen one we think that the Arabic language was chosen by God to be the language of the Quran ( as i mentioned earlier that it is mentioned in the Quran ) also it is mentioned in the Hadiths and seerah of the Prophet

Muslims are all equals, muslims Arabs are not better than any other muslims all of them are equals.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by Azimuth you are trying to change everything to Turkish even the word Allah is not Good enough for you and want to put another word to insted of it, well since you are starting a new religion then dont pray facing Makka, pray facing Ataturk Tomb. Off course we are trying to change everything to Turkish, because we are Turkish but do not worry it is impossible. We lack culture, we lack national mentality, as I have told you, we are just warriors. That aside, we are easy to be assimilated. May be one day a guy will continue Ataturk' s reforms. But this should not be a problem for you. But if you are using islam as an arabic imperialist propoganda, then you should be afraid. Yes, Turkish nationalists call god, "Tanri", I never use the arabic or Persian words for God. I hope all the Turks here are reading your comments. How arabs use islam for such imperialism. Anyway you just know how to strike from back. People who remembers 1917, knows you.

iam not worried about anything conserning your language or what you call "imperialist propoganda" i think you can do what you like with your language
what iam talking about is Quran and Prayers in Islam is alway been in Arabic, and there are alot of proofs in the Quran ( if the Quran you have is different from the one we have and it is mentioned in the Hadiths too.

and about 1917 that was part of the arabic areas and that was Jorden and does not represent all Arabs and Ottoman empire didnt cover all the Arabic areas
and i didnt study or read about what happend there in details but i guess the British where somewho better than the Ottoman that time.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by Azimuth i think that you are luky that Saudi Arabia Allowed you to enter the Holiest lands of Makka and Medina First of all, no real man would go to Saudi arabia and finance terrorists with the money they spend there. Second, you say, we are lucky, Saudis except us. MAN WHEN YOU BETRAYED US, YOU LET BRITISH  INSIDE HIJAZ. YOU ARE NOW LETTING AMERICANS IN HIJAZ. PLEASE AT LEAST EXCEPT SOME TURKS THERE. I KNOW WHY, GOD SENDS PROPHETS TO ARABS (If he really sends off course), because only a prophet will heal you losers. But what did you do? Just 20 years after Mohammads dead, you leave islam into the hands of Ebu Sufyan' s family. What can I say to you stupids!!!!! BTW, none of the Ottoman Emperors went to Mecca to become a Hadji, please ask your self why?

well i am feeling that you are not muslim since you are not sure if Prophet Mohammed was a Prophet or not.
anyway i didnt know that no ottoman sultan went to mecca for hajj
and i dont know why?
can you please give us a little from your Sea of knowledge.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by Azimuth since when the Quran Transilations used in the Pryers? since when the Turkish didnt know how to at least read the Quran? Before our alphabet revolution made by Ataturk jsut 1% of the muslims living Ottoman Empire knew how to read and write. That is why this revolution was easy because nobody knew how to use the arabic-Persian alphabet.

that was common in those days that everywhere in all countries the people who knew how to read and write were minority and from the secound half of the last century that changed and the number is increasing every year
and i dont think that the Alphabet has anything to do with that. for exampe Iranian people who know how to read and write in Persian are more than it use to be 60 years  ago.
from out side the Islamic community i will say that Japanese changed alot from the WW2 and they didnt change there alphabet and they are still learning chinese Alphabet in school. and many other countries

if Turkish people still using the former Alphabet i dont think that they will be different from what they are now.

Originally posted by HulaguHan Originally posted by azimuth by changing the Alphabet and changing the religion you think that you will be Advanced? In 940' s we changed our religion, you know the results, in 100 years we were in Baghdad, we occupied 90% of islamic world. Why not? Strategical movements in good occasions always benefits you. BTW, we did not change our religion, we just changed our alphabet, now more than 80% knows how to read and write. Off course you will not like this because when Turks grow strong again, they may invade and slaughter you again, huh?  incerease of the rate is 79% man, get this number well, Latin Alphabet rocks!!!!! BTW when we became muslim, we changed our alphabet, none of you guys complained about it...

you still think that the Mongols are Turk and related to you, well i dont know if that is true or not but do you even understan how they speak
and you are wrong , i feel very happy when i know that there is a Muslim country is becomming strong
and about invading us and slaughter us again i really dont have comments on that since i dont know the future and you dont know the future too i guess we wait and see if your star wars movies will be true or not.

Originally posted by HulaguHan I think we should pray to the arabic people, lets forget god, lets just remember the arabs.  Lets turn back to Mecca, pray for the arabs. Pray for the holy days, the holy conquest of British of Hijaz, the holy muslim American soldiers guarding saudis. Heil arabs, ubermensch... Forget the god because in this issue, he forgets you, infact I think he forgot world.   EDIT: Hulagu Han knew the business.

mate you have an issue
you hate Arabs alot
anyway i dont care
Muslims are all equals and Arabic speaking Muslims are minority and we are no better than any other muslims
God chose that the last prophet is to be Arabic and the last book is to be in Arabic  . and that has nothing to do with arabic people
Prophet Mohammed was sent to all people not just for arabs
God sent alot of prophets to some people but not to all people, Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) was sent to all people in all places.
as an Arab it is and it was and it will always be our greatest Honore that the Master of the Prophets was chosen to be an Arab and the Quran came in Arabic

so please think again before you start praying towards Arabic people, bleive me we are alot and everywhere you wont be able to keep up.

Helal olsun!

"iam not worried about anything conserning your language or what you call "imperialist propoganda" i think you can do what you like with your language
what iam talking about is Quran and Prayers in Islam is alway been in Arabic, and there are alot of proofs in the Quran ( if the Quran you have is different from the one we have and it is mentioned in the Hadiths too.

and about 1917 that was part of the arabic areas and that was Jorden and does not represent all Arabs and Ottoman empire didnt cover all the Arabic areas
and i didnt study or read about what happend there in details but i guess the British where somewho better than the Ottoman that time."

In 1917. most of the arabic peninsula including Mecca and Madina were under Ottoman rule. And also, saying "British were better than Ottomans" is a nasty thing. When Christians were unifying to destroy the Islamic union under Turkish rule, Arabs betrayed Turks and fought with "Arab Lawrance" against their 600 years protectors. Turks protected Islam and Arabs since we became Muslims. British only wanted to use Arabs and their lands as treasure sources. But I think arabs still couldnt realized this until today, when they see American soldiers destroying their country, calpping them...

The Ottoman alphabet was far different from original Arabic alphabet. It even had some letters representing "�", "p" and "j". It was a rich alphabet but very complicated for people to learn it easily. This is why our alphabet is changed to a "modified latin" one. Also our original alphabets are G�kt�rk and Uighur alphabets, not modified Arabic alphabet.

"i think that you are luky that Saudi Arabia Allowed you to enter the Holiest lands of Makka and Medina"

! We are lucky? What do you think what would happen if they even tried not to? Man, these lands were owned by Seljuks and Ottomans since 1000s. I think Arabs should thank Turks for letting Islam be one of the biggest religious occupations of the world, conquering Istanbul, protecting it from crusaders, developing it and its philosophy, giving Islam our culture and lives, protecting and developing Arabs and their language for centuries. I think Arabs cant accept that the once "white slaves" of central asia would rule them for the rest of Islamic future. Mecca and Medina wouldnt be holy cities for 1.5 billion Muslims if we havent became Muslims. You should pray for Turks and respect instead of being sarcastic.

But you are partly right about the image of Turkey in Islamic world. Our government really begs Europe to be included in their club and denying our past. But at least we are not letting an evangelist emperialist power to invade a Muslim or a Turkic country by using our lands and supporting them even if we need their power to keep as a strong economy. But this is a fact that there are lots of Turks who dont deny their pasts and not positive about the plans of EU, like me. EU is not an honorable decision for our nation. So dont judge all Turks according to the betrayer actions of the non-Turkish government who is led by USA and Israel, and an ignorant population who arent aware with their historical identity.

Also to Hulagu:

We never slaughtered Arabs, maybe Mongols did. But we arent MONGOLS, and we acted Arabs like our brothers through history. Turks werent slaughters and didnt torture Arabs, nor any other nation throughout history. Turks dont hate Arabs, but maybe Arabs hate us. We dont hate any nation because our culture isnt built upon hatred or slaughtering, it is build upon the beliefs of honor, courage and justice... Your beliefs are too full of hatred and dont represent the common ideas of Turks.

Also to azimuth:

Arabs should be proud of being gifted by Islam, since they had a violent past before the Islamiyah's arrival, full of slaves, daughter murders, tribe wars and unequality. Islam was sent to Arabs because they were losing their cultural values and violence was expanding even in the religious system and family. But they should also be aware of the fact that Turks were also a gift for Muslims and Arabs dssapointed Islamic faith with some of their caliphates and actions throughout history.