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Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
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Zagros View Drop Down
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hezbollah's defeat of Israel uncovered
    Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 08:22

It pretty much did reduce southern Lebanon to nothingness, so much so that it actually had to demand more munitions from the US, munitions which were transported via Scotland. And the war wasn't even allegedly against Lebanon, it supposed to be against Hezbollah.  

To all: Please read the articles and comment on specific points.
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 09:31
Originally posted by Zagros

 And the war wasn't even allegedly against Lebanon, it supposed to be against Hezbollah.  
 
Yea but Hezbollah is in Lebanon(for years). To many people from Leanon supporting Hezbollah, to many Hezbollah members are Lebanon citizens.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 12:29
Originally posted by erkut

 
Yea but Hezbollah is in Lebanon(for years). To many people from Leanon supporting Hezbollah, to many Hezbollah members are Lebanon citizens.
 
if Osama Bin Laden would subscribe to this forum, he would say I targeted the civilian targets of September 11th because:
Bush administration is in the USA (for many years). Too many Americans are supporting the republicans, and too many republican members are American citizens.
 
I guess this logic is extremely illogical to Al Qaeda but it is ok to excuse Israel in the light of the same logic! ( I actually think they are using the same logic already since their creation).
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 15:58
but the bush administartion has only been there for a year when osama attacked...
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 17:43

I think time is irrelevant to such a lame excuse. Osama can state the "Zionist" lobby and the skewed American foriegn policy instead of naming a single administration (which he actually did).

Israel said disarm Hezbollah, stop supporting Palestinian "terrorism" and return the soldiers, and they will stop targeting Lebonon infrastructure and civilian targets.
Osama said in his "decleration of War" and multiple times that let the United States withdraw from the "holy land" and stop supporting Israeli "terrorism" and let go the prisoners of Guantenamo, and he will stop his attacks.
If both targetted civilian infrastructure and individuals intentionally, what is the difference here? Why individual terrorism is fully recognized but a state terrorism is out of questioning?
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2006 at 22:53
I must start by saying, great articles zagros.Clap

im still alittle weary about this war being described as some clean sweep, but its couldnt be much better for Isreal, than what is described here either. My first comment is that this fills in some details not known before and confirms other articles during the war, and some impressions.

The suprise outcome and why i was wrong at the start of this war, was the isreali intelligence defeat, described so well in the first article. Isreal has always been strong in this area and i assumed that they knew where to fight and had a proper plan. I was sooo wrong here. I only got clued that they were 'shooting in the dark' after 4-5 days into the war.

This first article, being my favourite, describes how hezbollah had gained a SIGINT capability over the isreali comms, which i have to say is very impressive. i always thought that western comms/command technology as next to impossbile to overcome and one of the areas of clear superoirty. . That assumption has now been killed.

so where one would expect isreal to be superoir in; electronics & intelligence, was simply not there. All of a sudden the rest makes sense.

The fighting on the ground is already largely known, the isreali soldiers were describing Hezbi as pro's and had respect for them.  i have seen them on TV years ago, small well trained units that knew the isreali's well armed with night vision/camo/good weapons. So after watching that news clip i was expecting a very good fight from them.

They only thing the article didnt go into was the silkworm attack on the isreali corvette, i wished they this explained futher.




Edited by Leonidas - 28-Oct-2006 at 22:59
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 12:17
I also noted that. I think becuase the only information sources on that incident are the IDF and Hezbollah - both are very secretive organisations.  But other members on this forum previously stated that the missile was not in fact a Silkworm, otherwise the corvette would have been cleaved clean in twain. 
 
ISrael initially said that its phallanx anti missile system was disabled, I find that ahrd to beleive for a ship in full combat mode and in anotehr report I read that the missile itself was equiped with a jamming system and that is actually why it got through.
 
In support of the jamming theory - after this incident the Israeli ships did not dare to go within missile range again - soobviously they have no confidence in the reliability of their phallanx system, which is esentially just a gatgun network that shoots at the incoming.


Edited by Zagros - 29-Oct-2006 at 12:22
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Posts: 965 		  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 15:58
Dear okge;
Hezbollah is a terorist organization. USA is a legal country just like Israel, they both UN members. 
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 19:53
Originally posted by ok ge

Originally posted by erkut


Yea but Hezbollah is in Lebanon(for years). To many people from Leanon supporting Hezbollah, to many Hezbollah members areLebanon citizens.


if Osama Bin Laden would subscribe to this forum, he would say I targeted the civilian targets of September 11th because:

Bush administration is in the USA (for many years). Too many Americans are supporting the republicans, and too many republican members are American citizens.


I guess this logic is extremely illogical to Al Qaeda but it is ok to excuse Israel in the light of the same logic! ( I actually think they are using the same logic already since their creation).

    
     I believe you still cannot compare what Al Qaeda has done to New York as to what Israel is trying to do on Lebanon. Osama did not just attack the US because of any administration. OSama attacked because he hates America in general. Period. The more Americans he kills, the more pleasure he gets. Israel is attacking Lebanon because the government is too weak to get the hezbo's out.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 01:18
Originally posted by erkut

Dear okge;
Hezbollah is a terorist organization. USA is a legal country just like Israel, they both UN members. 
 
Right Erkut, the problem is sympathisers of Hizbolla see the reluctance of israel to wipe out the entire Passive supporters of this terrorism as a sign of their weakness rather than their kindheartedness.
 
They talk of victory of Hizbolla over Israel, a nation which has the capacity of destroying the entire middle east singlehandedly & which has demonstrated it's ability again & again.
 
They all talk for Hizbolla, but none has the courage to fight Israel in a war & never had it or even side with Hizbolla except Ahmedijinad who is desperate for support inside his country by playing upon people's emotions & might very well lead his country to another round of destruction like Saddam's Iraq.
 
The funniest part is that all these countries are franetically trying to attract the friendship of their so called enemies, when there people are supposedly shedding tears for Hizbolla.
 
It's amazing to see how high hypocrisy can go.
 
 
 
 


Edited by Vivek Sharma - 30-Oct-2006 at 01:22
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 02:03
Originally posted by erkut

Dear okge;
Hezbollah is a terorist organization. USA is a legal country just like Israel, they both UN members. 
 What are you trying to say? because the USA and Israel are UN members and states, they cannot commit terrorism? Then why shall we call Syria, Sudan, and Iran terrorist states? Aren't they also members of UN and countries just like Israel?
Dear Erkut, a state can commit terrorism. In fact, more terrorism committed by states and more death conducted by states than terrorist organization. This is a FACT.
 
Originally posted by Ponce de Leon

  OSama attacked because he hates America in general. Period. The more Americans he kills, the more pleasure he gets. Israel is attacking Lebanon because the government is too weak to get the hezbo's out.
This is the notion again of pure evil and pure good. Nonsense to reality. I will ask you if you read Osama's decleration of war against the United States? Certainly not. Furthermore, I ask you that when you read it, to find me one single line that he literally expresses that the goal is to kill Americans for no reason, or for pleasure. If you read his decleration of war, you will see he uses a much more intelligent argument than simply killing Americans. If you are implying that his hidden intention is to have pleasure of American blood, we can speculate and assume such fantasies on any war criminal, including Ariek (Ariel) Sharon.
 
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

 
Right Erkut, the problem is sympathisers of Hizbolla see the reluctance of israel to wipe out the entire Passive supporters of this terrorism as a sign of their weakness rather than their kindheartedness.
Kindheartedness? They did not wipe out Lebanon because the world is watching. Once the world blinks an eye for a second, you will have more massacres of hundred of villages wiped out as in 1948, the massacre of Dier Yassin, the massacre of Sabra & Shatila and recently, throwing a ton bomb on an apartments stories complex in Gaza just because one Hamas member is in one apartment. Killing tens of civlians at 4 am! What kindheartedness is here?


Edited by ok ge - 30-Oct-2006 at 02:05
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 02:23
Thanks Cok Gec, for pointing out this incident.
 
What else you expect a state to do to an apartment complex that hides some terrorists & supports them. What else you expect from Israel when Rockets are fired from courtyards of Hospitals & schools ?
 
It is not the Israelis & the American support to Israels which did the harm to Lebonon. It was the passive supporters of Hizbolla terrorism who destroyed Lebonan.
 
If Hizbolla is not a terrorist organization, then why does it not start a war against Israel & fight untill it wins with the support of all the middle east or whoever supports them.
 
Dear friend face the reality, no body even in the muslim nations except the Shia Iran has sympathies for the Hizbolla. Syria had some but doesn't have anymore.
 
All the Arabs want to see the Hizbolla brought to face the law for what they are - terrorists.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 02:31
It has become fashionable for a lot of people these days to criticise the US & talk against Israel, but they have not made it fashionable to stop trying attracting the friendship of the US & the west.
 
US & Israel are not terrorist states, because they openly declare war & fight openly with their armies in battlefield. They don't arm, finance & train militias & terrorists to fight for their cause, they fight with their official armies.
 
They don't go hiding after launching rocket attacks, they stay in the field even after victory, trying to bring semblance of good governance in the countries they win. They try to restore order, at their cost.
 
Their soldiers don't fight or face the media with their faces covered by hijabs or face masks, trying to hide their identity. They fight with full media cover with them. 
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Posts: 3711 		  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 03:22
Dear okge;
Hezbollah is a terorist organization. USA is a legal country just like Israel, they both UN members. 
 
Legality does not mean It is right.
 
Infact USA is boss of UN. So becoming UN member does mean zero.
 
Israel is absolutely more terrorist than hezbollah.
 
And that suicide bombing is boring.
 
Sorry last one month, I generally read arabs were killed by israel, not jews were killed by arabs.
 
So If I am jew who respect human life, I will fight against my own country
 
Anyway, History is not limited with 100 year, Israel supperiority is not forever, but their neighbors.
 
It is also sad, If israel ever lost a war, most probably arabs will do what they learn from israel.
 
Right Erkut, the problem is sympathisers of Hizbolla see the reluctance of israel to wipe out the entire Passive supporters of this terrorism as a sign of their weakness rather than their kindheartedness.
 
Your passive supporters theory is nothing more than bullsh*t. So what jews are pasive supporters of israel terrorism, americans are passive supporter of USA attack over iraq. Lets kill them all. You should try to be atleast a little neutral. Your anti-muslim feeling destroy your thinking way.
 
By  the way,  You are  also  passive supporter of israel and USA  politics, acording to your stupid ideas, you should be killed.
 
 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 03:30
guys can we discuss if it is a terrorist organistion in a another thread, this thread is about the conduct of the war.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 03:37
Dear Mortaza I am not anti muslim, Why do you think I am anti muslim ? Please don't consider me as anti muslim. I am only against the section of Indian muslims who live in India, enjoy all the facilities of India but work against it. No hard feelings against others.
 
 
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 05:28
Originally posted by Zagros

I also noted that. I think becuase the only information sources on that incident are the IDF and Hezbollah - both are very secretive organisations.  But other members on this forum previously stated that the missile was not in fact a Silkworm, otherwise the corvette would have been cleaved clean in twain.
found this on globalsecurity.com. The C-802 is chinese and one generation younger than the silkworm. The chinese denied any of their missiles being involved but none of their missiles have to be, if its  NK/Iranian modified > iranian made

Originally posted by globalsecurity

In early 2000 it was reported that North Korea and Iran were jointly developing an advanced version of the C-802 cruise missile. These missiles initially acquired by Iran were not equipped with advanced systems, and the missiles acquired by Iran were rather outdated. Iran turned to North Korea for missile system technology, and the two countries are jointly developing an upgraded version with improved accuracy. ["N. Korea, Iran Jointly Develop Missile: Report" Korea Times February 17, 2000]

Hizballah seriously damaged a Saar 5-class missile ship named the "Spear" that was helping to enforce Israel's blockade of Lebanon on 14 July 2006. One Israeli sailor was killed and three were initially missing after the attack. Israel initially believed that an aerial drone armed with explosives hit the warship, but it became clear that Hizballah had used an Iranian-made C-802 cruise missile to strike the vessel. Another Hizballah radar-guided anti-ship missile hit and sank a nearby Cambodian merchant ship around the time the Spear was struck. Twelve Egyptian sailors were pulled from the water by passing ships.Link

 

this article also talks about the attack (another corvette was targeted when the combodian ship went down)
http://www.navyleague.org/sea_power/sep06-10.php

Originally posted by Zagros

ISrael initially said that its phallanx anti missile system was disabled, I find that ahrd to beleive for a ship in full combat mode and in anotehr report I read that the missile itself was equiped with a jamming system and that is actually why it got through.
the Saar 5 is suposed to be hard to hit, the IDF story was... they didnt seem to switch on almost any of the relevant defenses, nor the ship in full combat mode.

Originally posted by haaretz

The committee investigating the incident in which a Hezbollah missile hit an Israel Navy vessel off Beirut published its temporary findings on Monday, pointing a blaming finger at the ship's captain and the admiral of the navy for the attack.

On July 14, a Hezbollah-launched missile struck Israel Navy vessel Hanit off the coast of Lebanon. At the time of impact, the ship's state-of-the-art anti-missile system was not functioning, apparently because intelligence did not expect Hezbollah possessed missiles of that sort.

The committee found three other anti-missile systems were also turned off and the majority of the soldiers were in the mess hall, eating Sabbath dinner.

In addition, the ship's vulnerability to attack was increased because it was cruising a short distance from the Lebanon coast on orders of the admiralty.Link

I think on face value i can belive this; Stealth/low acoustic design, phallanx and two 32 vertical launched barak misslies with a host of sensors, unless this missile was super super quick they should of picked it up. Isreali's have botched the war up all the way through, so botching this up is completely conceivable.

Picture time!!Big smile

 
 
Originally posted by Zagros

In support of the jamming theory - after this incident the Israeli ships did not dare to go within missile range again - soobviously they have no confidence in the reliability of their phallanx system, which is esentially just a gatgun network that shoots at the incoming.
these corvettes have a layered defense. It had only dawned on them that hezbollah had thought about countering their navy and they stayed away. Doing the same job (like shelling the coast) as before, just at safer distances. Judging from the poor intellignce that might of been the prudent thing to do.

Yeah I am not sold on the jamming story, but ive been wrong about this war beforeWink



Edited by Leonidas - 30-Oct-2006 at 05:32
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote ok ge Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 10:10
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

What else you expect a state to do to an apartment complex that hides some terrorists & supports them. What else you expect from Israel when Rockets are fired from courtyards of Hospitals & schools ?
 
What logic is this? Since when in the 21st century killing a "terrorist" wife and kids is part of the operation? or since when killing tens of civilians is ok as long as this single man is there in the 3rd floor of a seven stories building?? Have you heard of assassination Vivek? have you heard of snipers? kidnapping?...etc
Anyhow, I don't expect a state like Israel to do anything except disregard to human life of others as soon the opportunity comes in. With a slight suspection, they have no problem hitting any target, including the UN shelter of Qana in 1996, killing 100 of just children and females!
If you still think all of this necessary, then sure, argue it is necessirty but do not fabricate a story of heartedness because that is the only thing that is missing in the IDF, a heart.


Edited by ok ge - 30-Oct-2006 at 10:11
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Posts: 8792 		  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Oct-2006 at 10:39
 
Images of Israel's kind heartedness.  As stated, tehy used so many of their bombs that they had to demand more from the US in order to feed their frenzied and indiscriminate air attacks, such as those on refugee convoys and buildings sheltering women and children.
 
Their bombiong was so indiscriminate that they blew a UN outpost to smitherines.
 
So enough regurgitation of Israel's bullsh*t propaganda, Vivek, and discuss the article or do not discuss at all, for the last time.
 
Reminder to all: This is not a discussion on the merits of Hezbollah or Israel as terrorist entities.  This is a discussion of the specifics of their war AS outlined in the topic starting post.
 


Edited by Zagros - 30-Oct-2006 at 10:41
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Zagros, I don't know which country you are from, but you don't seem to have any experience of military operations.
 
When you are fired upon by rockets or missiles, you don't spend time in looking for intelligence or pin point the targets, If you do you will be doomed. You fire in the general direction from which the attack comes. It's a game. If you are lucky you will get the enemy, if you are not, well your luck. The soldiers don't have the time to think, they can only react.
 
And if the firing is coming from a residential building, you shoot at the building, the open windows, the doors, since you shooting at the walls will serve no purpose.
 
The residents of the building who are letting the building used by the terrorists are passive terrorists themselves as guilty of the attack as the active terorists.
 
And talking of air attacks try taking a small aircraft up in the sky (if you have access to flying, if not come to India & I will take you up & demonstrate) & shoot down at an imaginary target on the ground (if you have access to or come to India &  I will facilitate your experiment) & mark your accuracy.
 
Sitting in our homes in front of the TV, it is very easy to pass comments on the soldiers, but try thinking from the point of view of the attacked soldier. He soesn't have time to think. He can only react. 
 
And your topic is about the defeat of israel, I am on mark.
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