Second Siege of Constantinople

Hah Turkics also saved the West When Khazars defeated the Arabs

As always , you overestimate Khan Tervel's help to the Romans... Abandon your nationalistic point of view ...

saviour of Europe... pffff

Originally posted by Kapikulu Originally posted by Krum Imagine what would happen if Tervel helped Arabs?Would Byzantine Empire have any chance?   I assume Tervel was wise enough to see that if Byzantine Empire fell, he was not strong enough to compete with the Arabs.

Exactly correct, Tervel was a very clever politician.

Originally posted by NikeBG   Not that you yourself would abandon any nationalistic view you might have in mind only because of it...

Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_arab_siege_of_constantinople If it wasn't the almighty and undefeatble proto-bulgar cavalry all of Europe would be muslim.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Originally posted by Liudovik_Nemski The romans were scared and called Khan Tervel for help the bulgar army didn't come as volunteers. If Constantinople's walls were such a major advantage they woudn't have called the bulgars for help.And just compare the casualties the arabs gave to bulgarians and the ones they gave to byzantines... Yes but the Byzantines were solely responsible for defeating the Arabs at sea, for which they must be given credit. Also, the Bulgars did not hit the Arabs until after the Arabs had launched many attacks against Constantinople while they were fresh. By the time the Bulgars did attack the Arabs, the Arabs were literally starving and suffering from an awful winter. So let's no give too much credit to one side in this war, it was a team effort for which both can take credit.

Originally posted by Constantine XI Originally posted by bg_turk Originally posted by Constantine XI As I myself have hinted at earlier, this really was a team effort of which both civilisations can take a lot of pride in. By defeating this invasion they saved Western Civilisation and did a great service to humanity. Who knows? If the Bulgars did not prevent the Arabs from crushing byzantium, Europe may have been liberated by the progressive forces in the East and may never have had to go through the dark ages. Western Civilisation ( or rather lack thereof), which brought about the inquisution, colonialism and the destruction of the native peoples of America, may have been stamped out by the progressive forces of Islam. It would have been a very different world then - a world in which Copernicus was never burnt for his ideas, a world in which America still beloned to its rightful owners. Progressive forces from the east? The same east which today is largely a collection of despotisms, dictatorships, absolute monarchies and theocracies; as compared to the West which is largely made up of secular, liberal democratic states? Islam has shown itself to be just as assiduous in persecuting religious deviants as Christianity and just as willing to conquer other lands for the sake of its own aggrandizement. Islam also showed itself more than willing to impose itself through conquest on foreign people as the West, the only reason they never did so like the West has done over the past 500 years has been its relative insularity and lack of technological and military backing. Islam's intellectual and progressive drive largely began to peter out in the 13th century and it became more insular and conservative, while shortly after the West began its revival and has led the world in progress and innovation ever since. Also the Dark Ages occurred largely because Western Europe was cut off from the mercantile and urban exchange in the Mediterannean world by the arrival of Islam, not because of any inherent ideological deficiencies in the organisation of Western Civilisation.

Edited by es_bih - 21-Mar-2007 at 16:01

Originally posted by bg_turk Originally posted by Chilbudios Copernicus was never burnt. How could Islam provide a better alternative to a world you don't know? I mixed Copernicus and Bruno. This does not change the argument. It was a time when the muslim world was more advanced than the backward theocratic christians - it was in the muslim world where mathematic, astrnomy and other sciences thrived, whereas scientists were put to deat in the most hedious way across in the western world. What pushed the West ahead was in my opinino the discover of the new world and access to unlimitted resources. If Iberia remained under Moor control, it may have been the muslims who colonized the new world, and the industrial revolution may have first taken place in a muslim country.

Anton,our greek friend is just jealous that his eastern roman masters weren't able to take all the glory from the victory(so that he can take part of it for the modern greeks). Leave him alone it's pointless.First he says that we're the evil nationalists(which at least in my case is true i am a nationalist) but then he says "saviour of Europe pfffff"

Edited by Liudovik_Nemski - 23-Mar-2007 at 11:04