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The Bahais / Babis-Why were they persecuted

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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Bahais / Babis-Why were they persecuted
    Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 17:25
Your knowledge about Christianity is obviously not very vast.

Jehovah's witnesses for instance do not worship Jesus (pbuh).

If the whole point of your entry into the discussion was just to lead to this point:

what is to be done with pagans and their communities acocrding to Islam?


You've wasted your time.

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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2006 at 20:56
Originally posted by Qutuz

Your knowledge about Christianity is obviously not very vast.
Jehovah's witnesses for instance do not worship Jesus (pbuh).
 
Hmm... Good point.  But then the fact that the  Jehovah's Witnesses define themselves as Chrtistians does mean they accept Christian doctrine regarding Christ.  Anyways, lets classify them as Christians.
Originally posted by Qutuz


If the whole point of your entry into the discussion was just to lead to this point:
what is to be done with pagans and their communities acocrding to Islam?

You've wasted your time.
No, this is not the reason why entered into the discussion.   Your  knowledge, however,  of your previous posts does not appear to be vast.  You initiated this train of thought here.   I entered into the discussion before these posts of yours.  Therefore... I could not have entered  the discussion as a means of leading to this question.   I was following your lead.  
Originally posted by Qutuz


Christians were nowhere near big enough a minority for this to be feasible, and besides Muslims would never adopt Christianity (as we consider to be paganism).
 
And you continued it here
Originally posted by Qutuz


But as far as the standard view of the Catholic, Orthodox & most Protestant denominations go, most of them would be classed as mushrikin.
So then I asked what is logical..... And was not given answer.  
Originally posted by Cryptic

 
And since all ( or almost all as you accurately pointed out Wink)  Christians are Pagans by definition, what is to be done with pagans and their communities acocrding to Islam?     
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 23-Oct-2006 at 21:23
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 05:07
Hmm... Good point.  But then the fact that the  Jehovah's Witnesses define themselves as Chrtistians does mean they accept Christian doctrine regarding Christ.  Anyways, lets classify them as Christians.


What I would contend is that the term "Christian" is very broad, and it does now, and always has, defined very different sets of beliefs.

As I mentioned, in early Christianity there were the Arians (strict monotheists) and the Trinitarians. As the latter were supported by the Roman Emperor (suprise suprise, a Roman emperor supporting a more paganistic variation of Christian doctrine) trinitarianism became the established creed across most of Europe but not all of Europe, it actually survived amongst the Goths of al-Andalus, most of whom later converted to Islam when it arrived in their peninsula, the rest were probably obliterated during the reconquista and inquisitions of the post-Islamic period of Andalus or forced to convert to trinitarianism.

Of course during the reign of the Holy Roman Empire in Europe not a lot of variation in creed existed, but after the fall of the Vatican and the advent of Protestantism, all forms of movements sprung up all over the place with essentially Christian beliefs, but twisted into all manner of variations.

Perhaps you have an idea personally of what Christianity means and what its core creed is, but I think that the New Testament doesn't really support such dogma, unlike Islam for instance, where the creed is very clearly defined in all its details. And the only real schisms occured due to political differences (which may have later expanded out into creed issues).

I entered into the discussion before these posts of yours.  Therefore... I could not have entered  the discussion as a means of leading to this question.   I was following your lead.


I'm well aware of this, I was merely exaggerating the fact that you just appeared to be bursting to ask a question like that. "Oh so you wanna slay all the pagans?"

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 10:22
Originally posted by sirius99


(qutuz wrote)

Sunni Muslims are the vast majority in the Muslim lands, Shi'a only make up about 10% of the population overall. You must remember in this time, there was no Iran, it was part of the Safawi empire,





Baha'i faith was founded in Qajar times ( 1856 ) not safavid era
 
Safavi empire was called Iran.
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 11:19
Originally posted by Qutuz


I was merely exaggerating the fact that you just appeared to be bursting to ask a question like that. "Oh so you wanna slay all the pagans?"
What you view as "bursting to ask", I view as following a train of thought (that I did not initiate)  to its logical conclusion.  Admittably, though, I do have a strong interest in how doctrinally Islam  views me and by extension, Moslems view me. 
 
Originally posted by Qutuz

the Goths of al-Andalus, most of whom later converted to Islam when it arrived in their peninsula, the rest were probably obliterated during the reconquista and inquisitions of the post-Islamic period of Andalus or forced to convert to trinitarianism.
This shows subjective nature of history.  You use terms like "most converted" and "probably obliderated".   Yet other information (subjective as well?)  suggests that a minority converted to Islam, that others resisted the invasion,  that deaths due to the inquisition have been exaggerated and that Islamic ties to Andaluscia (though they clearly exist) are not all inclusive.
 
 
Originally posted by Qutuz

   What I would contend is that the term "Christian" is very broad, and it does now, and always has, defined very different sets of beliefs.
If your point is that Islam is more monolithic in belief than Christianity, you are correct.  If you conclusion is that Christianity is so fragmented that Christians do not have a clear sense of their religous identity as Christians and that most do not share core beliefs (Nicean or equivelant creeds), you are mistaken.
 
Even your valid example regarding Jehovah's witnesses amounts to a very, very small fraction of self identifying Christians.   You could even add Mormons (non traditional trinitarians) and increase this fraction by perhaps 3 million people.   
      
 


Edited by Cryptic - 24-Oct-2006 at 14:24
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 21:13
Admittably, though, I do have a strong interest in how doctrinally Islam  views me and by extension, Moslems view me.

Christians, regardless of denomination, are People of the Book, same as Jews and Muslims, always have been and always will be.
Qutuz, there weren't any Arian's in the middle east at the time of the prophet.

Guys, if you get back to the topic of Bahais, and forget the whole muslim-christian chafing thing.
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Oct-2006 at 21:57
Originally posted by Zagros

Safavi empire was called Iran.


The point was not what it was called, but that it was a very different entity, most importantly that it had much wider boundaries than the modern day nation-state of Iran.

Originally posted by Cryptic

Admittably, though, I do have a strong interest in how doctrinally Islam  views me and by extension, Moslems view me.


What you need to understand first, is that this is not about how individuals see/treat you. This is about the legal standing of minority groups within the Islamic Caliphate. Since the Islamic Caliphate is not currently in existence, the question is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Cryptic

If you conclusion is that Christianity is so fragmented that Christians do not have a clear sense of their religous identity as Christians and that most do not share core beliefs (Nicean or equivelant creeds), you are mistaken.


I didn't state most. I merely pointed out that there are those who label themselves as Christian, yet who do not adopt the Nicean (Trinitarian) Creed.

Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

Christians, regardless of denomination, are People of the Book, same as Jews and Muslims, always have been and always will be.


Are you suggesting Muslims are "People of the Book"? If so, then your view is not even valid. The simple fact is that Ahl al-Kitab status has conditions, if someone does not meet those conditions they are not Ahl al-Kitab and are not classified as so under the Islamic Caliphate. If someone stops believing in Jesus (pbuh) and begins believing in Judas as the Messiah, yet continues calling himself a Christian, yet follows none of the injunctions of the Kitab (Bible) in his belief system, would he be considered Ahl al-Kitab? Likewise, as I mentioned before, is the meat and women of people who don't adhere to the Biblical way of life halaal to the Muslims? Can a Muslim man marry an unchaste Christian woman? No he cannot. Can a Muslim eat the meat of a Christian who doesn't slaughter Kosher? No he cannot.

Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

there weren't any Arian's in the middle east at the time of the prophet.


I did not state there were. However, there were Arians in North Africa, and I'm sure pockets of them would've survived in other places, either way, Muhammad (pbuh) spoke the words of God, he did not need personal experience of those people in order to speak about them.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 06:54
Originally posted by Qutuz

Are you suggesting Muslims are "People of the Book"?

Yes of course we are.
If so, then your view is not even valid. The simple fact is that Ahl al-Kitab status has conditions, if someone does not meet those conditions they are not Ahl al-Kitab and are not classified as so under the Islamic Caliphate.

The Caliphate, or conditions has nothing to do with it. The members of the People of the Book are laid out in the Quran.

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.[2:62]

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.[5:69]

Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabians. No conditions. (Sabians are Zoroastrians & Manachians in english)
If someone stops believing in Jesus (pbuh) and begins believing in Judas as the Messiah, yet continues calling himself a Christian, yet follows none of the injunctions of the Kitab (Bible) in his belief system, would he be considered Ahl al-Kitab?

An interesting question, this is only my opinion but I'd say that following (or attempting to) the bible would be the in/out criteria. Certainly trinitarian christians are included as Ahl al Kitab
Can a Muslim man marry an unchaste Christian woman? No he cannot.

Why not? A muslim man can certainly marry a Christian woman. If you think otherwise I ask you to bring forth your evidence.
Can a Muslim eat the meat of a Christian who doesn't slaughter Kosher? No he cannot.

No, we can't do that. But a seventh day adventist, who is trinitarian and eats Kosher, we can eat from.
Muhammad (pbuh) spoke the words of God, he did not need personal experience of those people in order to speak about them.

The prophets intepretation of the Quran included trinitarian christians as People of the Book.
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 17:06
Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

Yes of course we are


Muslims are not Ahl al-Kitab. We are the Ummah of Muhammad (Saw), Ahl al-Kitab is a designation used for those people who preceded us, who continued on their deviated ways and rejected the latest messenger. I think you should do a little more research on this one. This concept has been raised by some so called "new age muslims" in America who want to make unity with Christians and Jews, but it is most certainly not supported within Orthodox Islam.

Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

The Caliphate, or conditions has nothing to do with it... Muslims, Jews, Christians and Sabians. No conditions.


You quoted the evidence for it yourself....

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures)

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures)

The conditions are that they follow what's stipulated in their book, in order for them to be classed as people of the book. So if they didn't slaughter Kosher, we don't eat their meat, if they weren't chaste, we don't marry their women and if they don't worship the one God and practise monotheism we don't treat them as monotheists.

Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

Why not? A muslim man can certainly marry a Christian woman. If you think otherwise I ask you to bring forth your evidence.


The evidence for this one is quite clear in the Qur'an:

This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

No, we can't do that. But a seventh day adventist, who is trinitarian and eats Kosher, we can eat from.


These were my words exactly.

Originally posted by Omar al-Hashemi

The prophets intepretation of the Quran included trinitarian christians as People of the Book


Did it? I only remember him condemning those who call God one of three, not extending to them the umbrella of Ahl al-Kitab status.


Edited by Qutuz - 25-Oct-2006 at 17:08
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 04:50
Originally posted by Qutuz


Muslims are not Ahl al-Kitab. We are the Ummah of Muhammad (Saw), Ahl al-Kitab is a designation used for those people who preceded us, who continued on their deviated ways and rejected the latest messenger. I think you should do a little more research on this one. This concept has been raised by some so called "new age muslims" in America who want to make unity with Christians and Jews, but it is most certainly not supported within Orthodox Islam.

Well, this certainly isn't a new concept at all. This is an old concept, but since its not really relevent to the discussion I won't push it.

You quoted the evidence for it yourself....

Are you playing with me?

those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians


AND the Christians.

The evidence for this one is quite clear in the Qur'an:


This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).

QED. A muslim man may marry a Christian woman. Chaste is constant for muslims and People of the Book.


Did it? I only remember him condemning those who call God one of three, not extending to them the umbrella of Ahl al-Kitab status.

He only knew about trinitarian christians I'm sure. There are many condemnations of Jews as well, this doesn't mean they aren't Ahl al Kitab.

Trinitatian christians are defintely People of the Book.
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 06:30
Originally posted by Omar

Well, this certainly isn't a new concept at all. This is an old concept, but since its not really relevent to the discussion I won't push it.


The age of the concept doesn't determine its validity within Orthodox Islam. Even so, can you name any scholar of repute that ever claimed this? Did any of the 4 great imams of Islam ever claim this? Any of the Sahabah (ra)? These are our first points of reference, not Sheikh Fulan.

AND the Christians


These verses were revealed to the Christians of the time, who were on something wrong, but who were being given the chance to follow a new messenger (pbuh), they rejected and became disbelievers. At that point, when they chose to reject the message, these verses you've quoted were considered mansoukh anyway (ie. they are abrogated, their time of validity for the Christians finished).

A muslim man may marry a Christian woman. Chaste is constant for muslims and People of the Book


Obviously a Muslim woman would be chaste.

He only knew about trinitarian christians I'm sure


Why are you so sure about this? He knew that Christians had begun as a true community of believers and had slowly disintegrated into the cesspool of polytheism we find them in today, why would Allah (swt) not have given him the knowledge that some of them were still sincere in their monotheism?

Trinitatian christians are defintely People of the Book


As I stated, this issue is not even relevant except under an Islamic Caliphate. The status of Ahl al-Kitab has no meaning for Muslims who live outside of dar al-Islam really. Except perhaps in the case of marriage and meat, and in both those cases the vast majority of Ulema decree that it's not permissable or strongly discouraged for either of those things in the present day situation. For example, many Ulema have given the ruling that Muslims living in Christian countries should not marry Christian women, as their laws bring the children under her control and out of her husbands control in the event of divorce etc. I've personally seen many cases of this occuring and it's truly sad to see the Muslim men distraught at how their children end up. Likewise 99% of Christians do not slaughter according to their book, therefore their meat isn't halaal.

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 02:30
These verses were revealed to the Christians of the time, who were on something wrong, but who were being given the chance to follow a new messenger (pbuh), they rejected and became disbelievers. At that point, when they chose to reject the message, these verses you've quoted were considered mansoukh anyway (ie. they are abrogated, their time of validity for the Christians finished).

Now you appear to be a guy who knows Islam pretty well, so I'm pretty sure you know that the above paragraph is wrong. Espcially since you used a completely different argument in your last post. The Quran is a timeless book and nothing gets abrogated, Christians are included in the people of the book regardless of religious differences between themselves or us as clearly shown in those verses I posted.
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 04:26
The concept of "mansoukh" in Islamic Fiqh is quite well known and studied, if you're not aware of it, and if you misunderstand it to mean the Qur'an is not timeless, then I can only advise you to go and take some lessons in the deen (From Muslim Scholars, not from Interfaithers) and then return to the discussion.
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  Quote yazzmode621 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Nov-2006 at 23:27
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Any one knows why the Bahais were persecuted, What were there teachings, Comparative study of their belief, the current state etc..



The main reason I believe is that muslims believe that a profit is going to come and lead them or whatever and bahais believe that the profit has come.

No, Bahai is not a British invention.  Anyone that tells you otherwise is an  absolute idiot.    
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 04:29

The main reason I believe is that muslims believe that a profit is going to come and lead them or whatever and bahais believe that the profit has come

Thats jews and christians mate, not muslims and bahais.
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  Quote yazzmode621 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 10:04
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


The main reason I believe is that muslims believe that a profit is going to come and lead them or whatever and bahais believe that the profit has come

Thats jews and christians mate, not muslims and bahais.


I know about the jew and christians but I"m pretty sure bahais and muslims have a similar thing.  Muslims are waiting for like another imam or something and bahais believe that he has come.  
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 03:54

I know about the jew and christians but I"m pretty sure bahais and muslims have a similar thing.  Muslims are waiting for like another imam or something and bahais believe that he has come. 

Oh, you mean that Mahdi thing? There are some sub groups that believe in that, but its not a major muslim belief.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 11-Nov-2006 at 03:55
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  Quote TRUREL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 07:13
I think the reason they are persecuted is because they innovated from an Islamic religion.
 
Consequently their originators would be regarded as apostates.
 
Islam doesn't react very well to that, check out the general response to Qadiani, Ismaili etc. 
 
 
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  Quote kingofmazanderan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 18:29
Qutuz you are wrong about the Bahai faith being a dieing religion.  There are members of this religion from almost every country on the planet.  Besides it is a relitivly young religion and it takes time to spread.  If you guys really want to learn about the Bahai faith go talk to some Bahai's most of the Bahai's are very devout to their faith and would love to discuss it with you.  Qutuz you have to be out of your mind to think that the Bahai faith was created by the British its a legitamit religion.  Yazzmode621 you are right the Bahai's think that their profit is the mahdi returned but Shia's do not believe it to be true. 
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  Quote Qutuz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 04:43
Qutuz you are wrong about the Bahai faith being a dieing religion.


Can you provide some growth rate statistics for it? I'm mostly going by the fact that I've met few Bahai's yet quite a lot of ex-Bahai's.

There are members of this religion from almost every country on the planet


I don't doubt how far it has reached, I just doubt its numbers are really growing.

Besides it is a relitivly young religion and it takes time to spread


Islam in its first century spread and controlled an area from the Atlantic Ocean to the Indus River, from the Pyrenees down to Madagascar and most places in between.

If you guys really want to learn about the Bahai faith go talk to some Bahai's most of the Bahai's are very devout to their faith and would love to discuss it with you


I've tried talking to them, they don't really seem to have much to offer. Except for some vague idea about us all being united in a brotherhood of religion and some twisted idea that somehow all of the religions in existence are cohesive with one another.



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