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Sparta Vs. Athens

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Poll Question: Which Greek City-State was the greatest?
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sparta Vs. Athens
    Posted: 16-Feb-2005 at 01:17

The Peloponnesian war was (is?) being tought in US military academies.

Athens being the "good Nato" and Sparta being the "bad undemocratic USSR".

History repeats itself, either as a farce or as a tragedy!

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Feb-2005 at 19:45

In regards to the argument whether or not there are any parallels between Thucycides account of the Peloponnesian War and the Iraq War, here is a thought

 chemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" />>>

 On June 7, 2003 an article appeared in the newspaper the New York Times. It was by Leo Strauss daughter, Jenny Strauss Clay, a professor of classics at the University of Virginia. She writes:  Recent news articles have portrayed my father, Leo Strauss, as the mastermind behind the neo-conservative ideologues who control United States foreign policy. He reaches out from his 30-year-old grave, we are told, to direct a "cabal" of Bush administration figures hoping to subject the American people to rule by a ruthless elite. I do not recognize the Leo Strauss presented in these articles. My father was not a politician.>>

 >>

  Leo Strauss, for those not familiar with the name, was a Political Theory professor best known for the "resurrection" of  ancients scholars, namely, Thucydides and Plato. Some "anti-Straussians" have gone as far as to that claim he advocates  a Thrasymachus-like wisdom  (e.g. Platos Republic) and that the present-day war in Iraq is the indirect result of his disciples (the likes of Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz; Abram Shulsky of the Pentagon's Office of Special Plans, and Richard Perle of the Pentagon advisory board, to name just a few) >>

 >>

Personally, I dont believe the above-mentioned are acting out any of Strauss teachings, but like I said above, its just a thought.>>

 >>

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  Quote Spartakus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2005 at 07:07
Athens could defeat Sparta but the last one exploited an important drawback of the Athenian democracy and of the nation's ideology,it's arrogance.
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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 16:48

Well I'm torn between Sparta and Athens, so I will base my decisions of these criteria:

Political: Edge (Athens), the first true democracy was surprisingly transparent, although at times unstable. But, autocratic Sparta just can't compete.

Culture: Edge (Athens), Greek culture is Athenian culture, while Sparta had little or no culture of its own.

Military: Edge (Sparta), Sparta was the land power, while Athens was the sea power. However, Sparta won the peloponnesian war in decisive fashion and deserves the credit.

Economic: Edge (Athens), Athens was superior in this regard, they had a larger trading system. While, Sparta relied on the helots for economic prosperity.

Athens wins 3-1

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  Quote conon394 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 21:09

Winterhaze13

I'd give Sparta an addition -.5.
They went to war with the slogan 'Freedom for the Greeks', but only won because they sold out to Persia.

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  Quote Winterhaze13 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 11:10
Originally posted by conon394

Winterhaze13

I'd give LACE>SpartaLACE> an addition -.5.
They went to war with the slogan 'Freedom for the Greeks', but only won because they sold out to LACE>PersiaLACE>.

That's a great point. But Athens also reached out to the Persians for help.

Indeed, history is nothing more than a tableau of crimes and misfortunes.

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  Quote RED GUARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 16:20

  Hmm... the Spartans had the best military while Athens had the strong economy... tough choice....
Quotes by your's turly:

"I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend"

"This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride."

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  Quote conon394 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 16:20

True Winterhaze 13

But Athens certainly never consummated an alliance with Persia during the Peloponnesian war. I would also point to the Corinthian war, where Athenians may have allied with Persia out of desperation, but alone among the combatants aided Evagoras (of Salamis on Cyprus) in his rebellion from Persian and resisted a peace that would reconfirm the Great King as suzerain over the Greeks of Asia Minor.

Athenian actions were certainly driven by a healthy dose of self interest, but I think it is also fair to say that seem to have had a greater sense of pan-Hellenism than most polis, and certainly more than Sparta.



Edited by conon394
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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 21:03

Originally posted by Winterhaze13

Political: Edge (Athens), the first true democracy was surprisingly transparent, although at times unstable. But, autocratic Sparta just can't compete.

And why is that?  Sparta's government was stable and strong.  What more do you want?



Edited by Lannes
τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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  Quote conon394 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Mar-2005 at 21:21

Lannes
How about freedom of speech...
to paraphrase of Demosthenes a person was free to criticize Athens in both Athens and Sparta, but was not free to criticize Sparta in Sparta.

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  Quote Marcus Regulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 10:07

"Sparta's government was stable and strong."

True, but inflexible.  It couldn't adapt very well to changing conditions and the culture was worse in that when changes needed to be made they couldn't do so.  Stability is one thing but you need to be innovative and when your telling most of your people to shut up your going to have problems.  The fact is that even though they defeated Athens they couldn't hold them because of this and the fact that their economy needed the helots to survive.  In the end Athens rises again from the dead.   This is one thing about democracies, they bounce back well after disaster.  Sparta was kicked out and when they lost some parts of their lands to helot revolt -- they couldn't recover becasue their system was ridged. 

Athens was unstable at times but its economy could create wealth and it political system allowed people with skill to rise to the top.  True their were some people of questionable character, but they were skilled.  Sparta had good character, but skills were lacking because of lack of imagination and competition to be in leadership.

In a ground battle-- bet on Sparta, but for a long standing system of government and economy and culture -- Athens wins in the long term.  At least until they run into another democracy called the Republic of Rome. 

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  Quote Aquila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 12:49
If you want to know what I voted for, ask yourself which city is bigger and more important even today. (Check a map if you must)
Aquila©2004 Victor Chevalier
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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 05:52

Originally posted by RED GUARD


  Hmm... the Spartans had the best military while Athens had the strong economy... tough choice....

I think that during the Pelopnesian war Athen had the better millitary pretty much right up to the end. In pitched battle the Spartans generally tended to have the better of things, but the Athenians generally had a better respect for strategy. Also the Spartans religious disposition tended to handicap them, reading Thucydides they never seemed to get favorable sacifices. Unfortunatly for Athens, the democracy there tended to drastically over-estimate their own strength making it inevetible that Athens would eventually overstep its bounds and come to its downfall.

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  Quote Marcus Regulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 15:39

Athens did have an ego problem, but in the end they were humbled by Sparta.  But then again Athens kicked Sparta out and rebounded. 

This debate would not even exist if Athens had won.  But because Sparta won the war and Athens rebounded so the question is asked.

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  Quote Antiochus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 16:25
I think both had their good and bad sides that eventually caused their respective downfalls. From one hand, Spartans were heavily military orientated. Thus they did not leave behind much of a "culture". After Epaminodas destroyed their army at Mantinea and Leuctra and by the time of Alexander they were reduced to total unimportance.

Athens from the other hand, gave us Democracy, the Parthenon, and some of the most well known names of Western cultural and intellectual history. After the end of Peloponissian war they never managed again to gain its previous power.
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  Quote RED GUARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 17:40
Originally posted by Idanthyrus

Originally posted by RED GUARD


  Hmm... the Spartans had the best military while Athens had the strong economy... tough choice....

I think that during the Pelopnesian war Athen had the better millitary pretty much right up to the end. In pitched battle the Spartans generally tended to have the better of things, but the Athenians generally had a better respect for strategy. Also the Spartans religious disposition tended to handicap them, reading Thucydides they never seemed to get favorable sacifices. Unfortunatly for Athens, the democracy there tended to drastically over-estimate their own strength making it inevetible that Athens would eventually overstep its bounds and come to its downfall.



          Better navy, yes. But better army, never! The Spartans are at home training for war every day or else they get whipped while the Athenians get fat and relax while being served by their slaves. Which person sounds more tough and well-prepared for war?

      
Quotes by your's turly:

"I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend"

"This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride."

"Power comes from a barrel of a gun."

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  Quote Imperator Invictus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 18:09
Which person sounds more tough and well-prepared for war?


The Theban.
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  Quote RED GUARD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 18:13
That was after the Peloponesian War.
Quotes by your's turly:

"I came, I saw, and I conquered... but only for the weekend"

"This is my tank, this is my weapon, and this is my pride."

"Power comes from a barrel of a gun."

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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:08
Originally posted by RED GUARD

Originally posted by Idanthyrus

Originally posted by RED GUARD


  Hmm... the Spartans had the best military while Athens had the strong economy... tough choice....

I think that during the Pelopnesian war Athen had the better millitary pretty much right up to the end. In pitched battle the Spartans generally tended to have the better of things, but the Athenians generally had a better respect for strategy. Also the Spartans religious disposition tended to handicap them, reading Thucydides they never seemed to get favorable sacifices. Unfortunatly for Athens, the democracy there tended to drastically over-estimate their own strength making it inevetible that Athens would eventually overstep its bounds and come to its downfall.



          Better navy, yes. But better army, never! The Spartans are at home training for war every day or else they get whipped while the Athenians get fat and relax while being served by their slaves. Which person sounds more tough and well-prepared for war?

      

The Spartans certainly have a reputation for excelence in that area, however it begs notice that Athens won nearly as many land battles as Sparta did during the war. Sparta was even more dependent on its slave class than Athens, so that is not a very good argument.

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  Quote Marcus Regulus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 20:18

'The Spartans certainly have a reputation for excelence in that area, however it begs notice that Athens won nearly as many land battles as Sparta did during the war.'

True, but there is a reason for this -- when the Athenians won land battles they were fighting Spartan Allies not the Spartians themselves for the most part.  At least that is what I have read so far.

"Sparta was even more dependent on its slave class than Athens, so that is not a very good argument"

Very true.  The fact is the Athenians did not have a economy based on slaves so much.  The Spartans absolutely depended on the Helots so all of them could remain soldiers, they contantly feared slave revolts because it would ruin their economy -- this was not true of Athens.  Athens had freemen at it oars of its navy as well.  this was not always true with the Spartans or their Allies.  

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