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Direct Link To This Post Topic: New discovery in Macedonia
    Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 09:34
Originally posted by akritas

@ Anton when answer in my questions please focus in my full responces and not cleaverly bring me cutting quotes.And because the adminstrators locked a similar thread that mention in
i will prefer to stay in the topic.And the topic is the Shield.
 
Some of your questions were reasonable and interesting. Others were simple flame war. I unswered to the later. Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 16:14
Propably you went in other archaelogical museum and in diffrent city


Those are from the Greek colonies in the area.

I was speaking about these:



I hope is clear that is something which doesn't have something in common with the Greek culture.

Greek culture is like this: painted pottery, Classical sculpture and architecture, Hellenistic art. Ofcourse, at Pella there are those fantastic mosaics which can be considered Hellenistic, but also the Thracian art (for example the frescoes in Kazanlik and Alexandrovo tombs) are purely Hellenistic (actualy, they are the only and best examples of Hellenistic painting discovered so far).



Whether Macedonians were Greeks or not has absolutely nothing to do with membership in Achaean league.


Man, if they were Greeks, they either should have been in Achaian League or in Sparta League. All the Greek cities and collonies were with one of these two.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 16:58
Originally posted by Menumorut



Greek culture is like this: painted pottery, Classical sculpture and architecture, Hellenistic art. Ofcourse, at Pella there are those fantastic mosaics which can be considered Hellenistic, but also the Thracian art (for example the frescoes in Kazanlik and Alexandrovo tombs) are purely Hellenistic (actualy, they are the only and best examples of Hellenistic painting discovered so far).
 
Menumorut you continue your huge historical errors.
you said that CONSIDER the Pella mosaic as Hellenistic??? Confused
You don't understand the diffrence between the Classical and Hellenistic periods!!!
The period of the Hellenistic  period begun after Alexander death and doesn't consern the Classic period .The mosaics in Pella and in Vergina estimated from the begginning of  4th century.The steles that founding in Pella and Vergina doesn't consirn the colonies and estimeted in the same period!!!!
And finally do you understand what is the meaning of the Hellenistic??? This mean Greek as Droysen(the founder of the word) explain in his book and refer to the spreading of Greel culture over the non-Greek peoples.
So the Macedonians spread non-Greek culture?
 
Can you show me better this..
 
Originally posted by Menumorut



I was speaking about these:
 
because my firewall (ZA)is not permit to see some scripts or pics
 
As about the Leagues ....no commentOuch.


Edited by akritas - 15-Oct-2006 at 17:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:16
Originally posted by Menumorut



Whether Macedonians were Greeks or not has absolutely nothing to do with membership in Achaean league.


Man, if they were Greeks, they either should have been in Achaian League or in Sparta League. All the Greek cities and collonies were with one of these two.
 
Your premises are again dead wrong. In order to cover your previous post's mistake you added some more. There isnt any Sparta league but instead there is a Peloponessian league. Of course to claim all Greek cities and colonies were part of these two leagues and certainly their absense had nothing to do with alledged "Greekness" or not, is at least wishful thinking. In the greek world there were lots of other leagues including Delian, Aetolian, Boetian, League of Corinth, Hellenic league, Panhellenion and others. 


Edited by Perseas - 15-Oct-2006 at 17:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 17:49
Finally I seen your picture Menomorut!!!
From whom museum is it? and why  you compared it  with the Greek ones??


Edited by akritas - 15-Oct-2006 at 17:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 18:00
You don't understand the diffrence between the Classical and Hellenistic periods!!!


It's an artificial, wrong classification of the Art periods as being Hellenistic if they are after Alexandros and Classic if they are before him.

Actually, in Art Hellenism started earlier, right after the fall of the Athenian power at the end of 5th century.

The difference between Classic and Hellenistic is that Classic is a rigid ideologic system and Hellenistic is an expression of self-conscious Greek identity.

After the conquest of Alxeander, the born of Hellenistic Kingdoms generated the cultural sincrestism and appearing of a new vision on Art, which is original, not Greek in a measure. Roman Art too is a Hellenistic Art.


The mosaics in Pella are more conected with the new period than with the Classic period, as you can see:

http://images.google.ro/images?hl=ro&q=pella%20mosaics&btnG=C%C4%83utare+Google&sa=N&tab=wi

So the Macedonians spread non-Greek culture?


Yes.


because my firewall (ZA)is not permit to see some scripts or pics







There isnt any Sparta league but instead there is a Peloponessian league.


I think you are under the Sparta's propaganda-machine effect!


Of course to claim all Greek cities and colonies were part of these two leagues and certainly their absense had nothing to do with alledged "Greekness" or not, is at least wishful thinking. In the greek world there were lots of other leagues including Delian, Aetolian, Boetian, League of Corinth, Hellenic league, Panhellenion and others.


Delian league is the Leauge lead by Athens.


he Aetolian League was a confederation in ancient Greece centering on the cities of Aetolia in central Greece. The league was established in 370 BC in opposition to Macedon and the Achaean League.

It was an obscure, small thing, being oriented toward one of the two real powers.


The League of Corinth was a federation of Greek states created by Philip II of Macedon during the winter of 338 BC/337 BC to facilitate his use of Greek military forces in his war against Persia.


So, an arrangement.

Boetian league also something small and engaged.
    

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 18:25
Originally posted by Menumorut

It's an artificial, wrong classification of the Art periods as being Hellenistic if they are after Alexandros and Classic if they are beofre Alexandros.
And who told you  that can  change the classification of the periods beacause you don't like you!!!
Originally posted by Menumorut

Actually, in Art Hellenism started earlier, right after the fall of the Athenian power at the end of 5th century BC.
The difference between Classic and Hellenistic is that Classic is a rigid ideologic system and Hellenistic is an expression of self-conscious identity.
Do you understand what you write or just trolling??Do you know why Droysen segereted the  Greek periods in Classic and Hellenistic? Or just replace the Droysen desicion with yours !!!The periods segerated because of one think!!!Because the culture-art and not the political system..actually your system.Of course and the language.
During the Hellenistic period art underwent dramatic transformations and evolved on the road paved previously by the Classical artist. While the Classical Greek concepts were not entirely abandoned, the artist of the Hellenistic era expanded his formal horizons with dramatic posing, sweeping lines, and high contrast of light, shadow and emotions. The conventions and rules of the classical period gave way to the experimentation and a sense of freedom that allowed the artist to explore his subjects from different unique points of view.Theseare the major diffrenties  between the two periods!!!
Originally posted by Menumorut

After the conquest of Alxeander, the born of Hellenistic Kingdoms lead to the cultural sincrestism and appearing of a new vision on Art, which is originaly, not Greek in a measure, so not Hellenistic.
Which Kindgdoms?? and I explain the lines of the Hellenistic arts.And how do you know  were not Greek ? During this period, the Idealism of classical art gave way to a higher degree of Naturalism which comes as a logical conclusion to the efforts of the great fourth century sculptors (Praxitelis, Skopas, and Lysipos) who worked towards a more realistic way of expressing the human figure. The subtle implications of greatness and humility of the high Classical era (Charioter of Delphi) are replaced with bold expressions of energy and power during the moments of tension.Give some non-Greek sculpture in Macedonia in order to support your claim??
Originally posted by Menumorut


The mosaics in Pella are more conected with the new period than with the Classic period, as you can see:
http://images.google.ro/images?hl=ro&q=pella%20mosaics&btnG=C%C4%83utare+Google&sa=N&tab=wi
How connected? The  geometric decoration covering the entire surface of the floor, and those with representative subjects, such as hunts, Amazonomachy (battle of Amazons) and others are unique and found it only in 4th century? One mosaic floor bears the artist's signature: " Gnosis epoesen"(Greek Langauge). How then connected with the Hellenistic?
Originally posted by Menumorut


So the Macedonians spread non-Greek culture?


Yes.
Evidence,prooves and facts not a dry Yes.Your claim  must have argyment, and the only that I read are arbitaries conclusions like your photo.You didn;t tell me the museum.Is Bulgarian?


Edited by akritas - 15-Oct-2006 at 18:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Oct-2006 at 19:39
Do you understand what you write or just trolling??... During the Hellenistic period art underwent dramatic transformations and evolved on the road paved previously by the Classical artist.


Betwen the Classic period and the so-called Hellenistic (I mean: what Art Historians calls by that, confusing the political events with the cultural evolution) which is sayed started with Alexandros empire, there is an Art period which is nor Classic nor sincretistic (I call sincretistic the period after Alexandros).
Pella mosaics, Kazanlic tomb or famous Greek sculptors like Praxilteles or Lysippos are of this period eronated called 'late Classic period'. It's wrong because it's not Classic in spirit.

Classicism is not a historical period but an ideology.

Sincretism/Hellenism (I repeat that I prefer to call Hellenism the 'late Classic' period, but here I use the accepted terminology), which started after Alexandros, was a development but also a change of the 'late Classic' spirit.


The geometric decoration covering the entire surface of the floor, and those with representative subjects, such as hunts, Amazonomachy (battle of Amazons) and others are unique and found it only in 4th century?


These are a great proof of the non-Greek character of the Macedonians. It was a Barbarian backwardism in preserving these forms.



Evidence,prooves and facts not a dry Yes.Your claim must have argyment, and the only that I read are arbitaries conclusions like your photo.You didn;t tell me the museum.Is Bulgarian?


Well, the empire of Alexandros was lead by Macedonians but the artists were mostly Greeks. Later, the Kings were rather Greeks, for example in the late period of Ptolemaios.

Is just the non-Greek character of the Macedonian empire which generated the spread of Greek style of Art and culture as a universal norm of superiority. It was an ideological process which Greeks alone would not succeed to detrminate.


The museum is the National Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki, the Macedonia Gold room.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 01:05
Even if it were to be different from the Greek culture, the proximity would still mean a lot o fheavy influences from eact othe into each other. To the outside world it may still be known as Greek culture for a long time to come.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 04:44
Originally posted by Menumorut




There isnt any Sparta league but instead there is a Peloponessian league.


I think you are under the Sparta's propaganda-machine effect!


Of course to claim all Greek cities and colonies were part of these two leagues and certainly their absense had nothing to do with alledged "Greekness" or not, is at least wishful thinking. In the greek world there were lots of other leagues including Delian, Aetolian, Boetian, League of Corinth, Hellenic league, Panhellenion and others.


Delian league is the Leauge lead by Athens.


he Aetolian League was a confederation in ancient Greece centering on the cities of Aetolia in central Greece. The league was established in 370 BC in opposition to Macedon and the Achaean League.

It was an obscure, small thing, being oriented toward one of the two real powers.


The League of Corinth was a federation of Greek states created by Philip II of Macedon during the winter of 338 BC/337 BC to facilitate his use of Greek military forces in his war against Persia.


So, an arrangement.

Boetian league also something small and engaged.
    
 
Thats slightly better!! Evenif late, your 5 min googling helped yourself to realize how erroneous were your earlier claims that you attempted to pass them as "facts".


Edited by Perseas - 16-Oct-2006 at 04:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 06:34
Well,i would prefere evidence or at least arguments to be presented ,rather than "dogmatic opinions".
I have visited Thessaloniki's museum too,and i think,it would be impossible for anyone to identify artifacts of 4th-1th cent BC as "out of greek culture".
At least can u present any of them ?
I could understand a debate about the genetical origin of Macedonians,but it seems irrational to present their culture as non-greek.
(u cant claim that this art was some different "balcanic" and the same time admitt that most of artists,were either Greek,or imitating Greek!)

As for the star/sun of Vergina, u wont need to search much to discover that it was a common motive of ancient greek art.
Many doubt about if this can be considered as the "macedonian symbol" or coat of arms,or it was just a decorative picture,often used.
(there are found attic pots of 5th cent,sicilian pots of 4th,frescos,coins from hellenistic judea,mauritanea and so..with "star/sun of Vergina".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 10:28
Evenif late, your 5 min googling helped yourself to realize how erroneous were your earlier claims that you attempted to pass them as "facts".


I was knowing that also some small leagues have been. They have been oriented either to Sparta or Athens.

Macedonians were not implied in the Peloponissian War as the Greeks.



I have visited Thessaloniki's museum too,and i think,it would be impossible for anyone to identify artifacts of 4th-1th cent BC as "out of greek culture".



As I sayed, there is room called "Gold of Macedon":

http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21117m/gold.htm



I could understand a debate about the genetical origin of Macedonians,but it seems irrational to present their culture as non-greek.


Not so irrational. What means in Greek Philip?

Why Macedonia was a Kingdom and the Greeks were having city-states?

Why is the Macedonian Art (not that in most of the rooms of Thessaloniki Museum, which are imported) a Barbarian style art? I mean, what is with this passion for symnbols, sun, wreaths?

Why is Pella such different from a Greek polis?



As for the star/sun of Vergina, u wont need to search much to discover that it was a common motive of ancient greek art.


You probably speak about the Geometric period, 9-8th century BC> But Vergina is from 5-4th century BC when all Greek Art was like i Athens Museum.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 10:47
Originally posted by Menumorut


Macedonians were not implied in the Peloponissian War as the Greeks


They were.
Thoukydides mentions this several times.
In fact from time to time they were once alliedwith Athenians and once with Spartans



As I sayed, there is room called "Gold of Macedon":

http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21117m/gold.htm

I think this is the main exhibition.
Try reading the inscription on the 6th cent BC ring,produced in a local smith,in Sindos.
: "KLEITAI DWRON" (present from/to Kleitos) -(δωρον means present in both ancient and modern greek!)


What means in Greek Philip?

In fact in all sources he is mentioned as Philippos (ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ) -Philos+'Ippos=the one who likes horses. (philo-shophy ,hippo-drome...)



Why Macedonia was a Kingdom and the Greeks were having city-states?

Sparta had 2 kings?
so 2 times non-greek ?




You probably speak about the Geometric period, 9-8th century BC> But Vergina is from 5-4th century BC when all Greek Art was like i Athens Museum.


Im talking about 5th century Atenian pots,and 4th cent Sicilian with the exact same symbol.

   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 11:12
Is obvious that you don't know ancient Greek history.I had decided to not responce in your posts but.....
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

Why Macedonia was a Kingdom and the Greeks were having city-states?
Kingdom of Arcadia (1336 BC - 676 BC)
kingdom of Athens
Kingdom of Thebes
Thessaly
Corinth
Kingdom of Epirus
 
and many others  ancient Greek kingdoms!!!
 
Originally posted by Menumorut

Not so irrational. What means in Greek Philip?
Philip is English term.The Greek term as  mention from the ancient writers is Fhilipos.So what is mean Philipos? is known
Originally posted by Menumorut

Why is the Macedonian Art (not that in most of the rooms of Thessaloniki Museum, which are imported) a Barbarian style art? I mean, what is with this passion for symnbols, sun, wreaths?
So and the Spartans were barbarians? Remember the fuguirines..or and Mucenaen art is barbarian?
Originally posted by Menumorut

Why is Pella such different from a Greek polis?
Why tell us?


Edited by akritas - 16-Oct-2006 at 11:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 11:14
Originally posted by Menumorut

[quote]
Not so irrational. What means in Greek Philip?


My God.... i cant believe this.

Philip my friend is a Greek word like many words that u r using.

Everytime a get in here i say the same thing....

Read a little before claiming something, whatever that is.

Next ask us how we say geometry and mathematics in Greek. Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 11:58
They were.
Thoukydides mentions this several times.
In fact from time to time they were once alliedwith Athenians and once with Spartans


I was saying that they have been implied, but not as Greeks, as Barbarians.



KLEITAI DWRON" (present from/to Kleitos) -(δωρον means present in both ancient and modern greek!)


And you this in English. Are you an Englishman?



In fact in all sources he is mentioned as Philippos (ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΣ) -Philos+'Ippos=the one who likes horses. (philo-shophy ,hippo-drome...)


Make me understand: if it would be in Greek language, is this a name of a Greek or a Barbarian?

Anyway, tell me what Perdikkas (another Macedonian king) means in Greek?




Sparta had 2 kings?
so 2 times non-greek ?


Sparta was a polis, a city-State. Where are the city states in Macedonia?

Excepting a Greek colony in Chalkidike, named Olynthos, there are not Greek-like cities in Macedonia. why that?



Im talking about 5th century Atenian pots,and 4th cent Sicilian with the exact same symbol.


It was a Macedonian influence.




So and the Spartans were barbarians? Remember the fuguirines..or and Mucenaen art is barbarian?


I don't know what you want say. Figurines are very Greek, at Delphi Museum is full of them.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 12:12
I m sorry, it useless to follow u in this..there are tons of such debates in this forum.
I think that the best way is to read 1st and then express an opinion.
U can find there etymology of names of kings,cities..etc etc.
There were many many more city states-colonies in Macedonia:Potidea,Mende,Neapolis,Afytis,Sane,Theramvos,Amphipolis,Stageiros,Akanthos,Torone,Eion,Skione,etc etc etc .
In the same time other parts of mainland Greece as Aitolia,Acarnania,Athamania,Epirus,parts of Thessaly were not organised in city-states.

Macedonian influence to Athens?in 5th century art ?
Oh mine!!! :)))
Seems like some peasants with their goats in Macedonia were influencing Socrates thoughts and Pheidias sculptures ,by drawing little sun/stars ! :)))
Ok enough...as i said there is much much to search in here for this subject.

Lets stick on topic.
Really interesting that macedonian shields were found.
It seems that they are made to be used in battle ,and not just decorative shields.
Also,its obvious the characteristic type:diameter around 0.60,one big circle in the center,rounded by 6-8 smaller peripheral circles.
Were the found in a tomb? Where exactly is this region? is it close to an ancient city?if yes which ?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 12:35
Brainstorm I have also that same questions.And the best of all them are ..why appear a text in a shield and of course the letters or the word origin.
I hope IMRO would be more specific in the next post.Lamp
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 13:03
What  does Perdikkas mean?????
Ask any Greek from 5 years and older and he will answer you.
Perdikas is from the greek word perdikaTongue( partridge)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Oct-2006 at 16:34
There were many many more city states-colonies in Macedonia:Potidea,Mende,Neapolis,Afytis,Sane,Theramvos,Amphipolis,Stageiros,Akanthos,Torone,Eion,Skione,etc etc etc .


Look what I found with Wikipedia (and some more source):

Potidaea (Greek: Ποτίδαια Potidaia, modern transliteration: Potidea) was a colony founded by the Corinthians around 600 BCE in the narrowest point in Pallene (now Kassandria) in the western point of Chalcidice in what was known as Thrace. Potidaea maintained trade with Macedonia.




Mende (Greece) was a city of Ancient Greece, located on the Chalcidice peninsula in Macedonia and founded in 8th century BC by Greek settlers from Chalcis and Eretria.




It was originally founded by settlers from Paros in about the 6th century BC, who called it Neapolis ("new city").




Amphipolis...After a first unsuccessful attempt at colonisation in 497 BC by the Miletan Tyrant Histiaeus, the Athenians founded a first colony at Ennea-Hodoi (Nine Ways) in 465...




Stagira (Akantos) a fost fondată n 655 .Hr. de coloniştii ionieni din Andros.




Torone was founded in the VIIIth century B. C. by Ionian settlers from Chalcis, a city of Euboea.



For the others didn't find as quick.



In the same time other parts of mainland Greece as Aitolia,Acarnania,Athamania,Epirus,parts of Thessaly were not organised in city-states.


Perhaps because there were not Greeks there.



Macedonian influence to Athens?in 5th century art ?
Oh mine!!! :)))


What sacrilege did I commited? Do you think Ancient Greeks didn't make cultural borowings?


And in the end: you can find here quotes from ancient historians, geographers, and orators showing that Macedonians and Greeks were different nations.
    

Edited by Menumorut - 16-Oct-2006 at 16:37

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