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What if somebody wants to become a muslim
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Posts: 478 		  Quote Timotheus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What if somebody wants to become a muslim
    Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 00:26
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


There was once a man, and his neighbour living by a hillside in a town. Each night the man would go out, drink and gamble. His neighbour who thought this was a terrible sin, each night when the man had left placed a stone on his front step. When the man came back the neighbour would tell the man he was sinning and explain that each stone represented a sin. The man would feel terribly guilty about it but nevertheless he still went the next night.
One day a landslide came and killed both men. An angel came down and said to the man, "Ok you are to come with me to heaven". The man asked "What about my neighbour?" The angel said "He is to go to hell." The man then said, no you must have it wrong, I am should go to hell, I gambled and drank each night, and he should go to heaven". The angel said "No, because you were repentful for your sins, while he committed a greater sin of arrogance by placing the stones"


If he was repentful for his sins, why did he continue to gamble and drink each night?

About original sin. The Christian doctrine is that Adam was the federal head of the human race; that is to say, he was rather like the president of a nation, being the representative of them before God. When he sinned, he fell from the state of perfection, and, as he was the representative of men before God, all of mankind fell from perfection as well. When Christ Jesus, called the Second Adam, came to earth, He also acted as the representative of the human race. Thus He, by living a life of perfection, was able to impute His holiness to the people He saved from sin. Also, life is not like a bank account, where every good deed is a credit, and every sin a debit, and if you end up positive when you die, you go to heaven. People sin all the time, with their actions, words, and thoughts. No amount of good works can make up for our sins, only the living of a sinless life. As Christ was the only one to do so, and as He was God, He imputed His holiness to His people when He died, so that they would be made free from the judgment of sin - they still sin, but are judged holy on the Judgment day because of the righteousness of Christ which they have.
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Simple, as long as you believe Allah (God) is one supreme God with no other gods, dieties, sons, daughters, wives..etc, and as long as you believe in all prophets from Adam to Muhammed, I don't see why you are not a Muslim. Can Muslims be sinners? Yes of course. In Islam, no sin confession to a priest (except Alavis), or no baptism. It is all between you and God. No person or a state should interfene in that.
 
Originally posted by Timotheus

If he was repentful for his sins, why did he continue to gamble and drink each night?
As long as he is a human being, he will continue to sin and repent and sin and repent. There is actually one Hadith that tells how a worshipper sins and repents, and sins and repents and continue like that, and everytime he repents with good faith and intention to never come back to do the sin, he is forgiven for it, even if he controled himself only for 5 minutes. That is the incentive of repenting, the door is never shut.


Edited by ok ge - 01-Nov-2006 at 00:33
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 02:34
Originally posted by Timotheus


If he was repentful for his sins, why did he continue to gamble and drink each night?

I'm not sure if I got the story 100% correct, its a sufi story that I heard once but Cok's answer is good.

Are you a 'saved by faith' Christian or 'saved by deed' christian Timotheus?
We have two distinctly different type of christian here, one type that believe that they are saved only for believing the Jesus died on the cross, and the other type that belive that good deeds are essential to getting to heaven as well as faith.
If you know, in the 'saved by faith' creed what is the purpose of Judgement Day? How are you being Judged?
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Posts: 279 		  Quote Eondt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 03:27
Although the question was directed at Timotheus, I hope he doesn't mind that I also answer the question from my point of view.
 
From a Christian point of view, you are only saved if you accept that Christ died for your sins (i.e. saved by faith). Therefore you try to practice good deeds and ask for forgiveness because of your faith, not because you are trying to "buy" your way into heaven.
 
On Judgement Day, we are all judged and will be found unworthy because we all lived in sin, however through our faith, Christ will intervene and save us as He's already paid for all our sins through his blood. 
 
This is however only as I see it, and Timotheus can propably expand alot more on it.
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I have always taught of myself as atheist anyway. Well, I suppose I will burn in hell. Why not at least enjoy the earthly pleasures while I can...
 
I guess if you dont believe anyway regardless of being born into a muslim household then u r not a Muslim.
 
"
  1. Non believers-goto eternal hell.
  2. Non-believers with no clear proofs- God tries them before hell or heaven.
  3. Believers-Bad outweigh good deeds-goto hell--punishment first--finally heaven.(mercy may still take precedence)
  4. Believers- Good outweigh bad deeds-Goto heaven.
  5. Believers-rejecting faith/associating partners/suicide/magic-Goto eternal hell."
But if u believe and shunn then No.5 according to islamic teachings. So i think ur assesment is rather correct.


Edited by malizai_ - 01-Nov-2006 at 04:39
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Posts: 2347 		  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 09:38
Originally posted by Omar al Hashim


Thats a very odd sentence if you think about it. Its like accepting Islams correct while dening it.
Besides, Tangriberdi's sin is worse than yours in my opinion


Well, I am amivalent about it. I am an atheist from a muslim background.
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Posts: 271 		  Quote Tipu Sultan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 10:52
i feel pity for bg turk this happens when a person places more important on race than religion like in turkey.
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 12:47
Originally posted by malizai_

Before compounding all the questions, shall we take a measure of what has just been covered.
 
"Many ways"? like which others.
 
The hanbli/shafi etc are from sunnah. So i am really waiting for the 'many' other ways.
 
 
Hanbali, Shafi, Maliki and Hanafi are considered to be Sunni school of thoughts, prophet way should be one, right?  however they have many diffrences in some details, this is what I mean many ways. Now I'd like to include the Shia school of thoughts. Which one isn't accepted by Allah? as far as I know none of them is against the rules in Quran, as we don't have different versions of Quran. My point is the details that are not mentioned in Quran aren't that important, it is up to the person to follow one of the schools he thought proper or more rewardable, but always keep in mind that other schools aren't rewardless. We know in Quran it is stated that even some of the nonmuslims (People of the books) will be rewarded.
  
 
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 13:01
Originally posted by Tangriberdi

Originally posted by bg_turk

I rarely fast, never pray, eat pork from time to time and love alcohol. Can I still be considered a muslim?
If you eat pork you disobey God and his prohibition.
Out of Islam. But Allah knows best.
 
You were about to commit a very big sin,brother. "fortunately" bg_turk said in his later post, he is an athiest, not a believer. You should know there are believers who do the same or much worse sins, but they are not out of Islam or you can never judge.
 
To your notice, besides the Hadith Omar provided, I'd like to provide the verse from Quran, it is up to you to how to understand. I compared four translations (Pickthal, Yusuf Ali, Shakir, Zaidan) and I have found same translation meaning, so I believe there isn't translation mistake.
 
 
Sura 4, Women

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-

 
 
 
 
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Posts: 781 		  Quote barbar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 13:52
Originally posted by bg-turk


I have always taught of myself as atheist anyway. Well, I suppose I will burn in hell. Why not at least enjoy the earthly pleasures while I can...
 
You  should know that you can be a Muslim and also enjoy the worldly pleasures. Only Sufists are the Muslim people who abandon the worldly pleasures, which is strongly discouraged in the basic teachings of Islam. 
 
 
  
 
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 15:28
Bg_Turk
I rarely fast, never pray, eat pork from time to time and love alcohol. Can I still be considered a muslim?
 
Only Allah can judge and know my friend, nobody has the right to attack or be patronising towards you regarding how you live your life.
 
 
Tangriberdi has raised an interesting point, I was told by a theologian that Islam does not mention Jesus "Isa" (p.b.u.h) will return and information regarding this matter is not clear. What are the reason's for this view? There are other such isses, like on the pilgrimage (Haj) some pilgrims through stones at what represents Sheytan but its not a part of the Haj, when did this start happening?
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Posts: 5697 		  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 17:29
Originally posted by Bulldog

Tangriberdi has raised an interesting point, I was told by a theologian that Islam does not mention Jesus "Isa" (p.b.u.h) will return and information regarding this matter is not clear.

Its true, the Quran doesn't say anything about him returning, only him leaving. Returning is only in Hadies, which personally makes me a little skeptical.

Originally posted by Bulldog

There are other such isses, like on the pilgrimage (Haj) some pilgrims through stones at what represents Sheytan but its not a part of the Haj, when did this start happening?

This isn't a part of the Haj? I thought this had always been a part since the prophets time. The Shaytan appeared three times to Ibrahim's wife to try and get her to abandon Makka, throwing the stones is recreation of that isn't it?
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Posts: 2800 		  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 18:51
I had a discussion about this, apparently its not a part of the "Haj" but is commongly believed to be a part of it.
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Posts: 659 		  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 19:14
Originally posted by malizai_

  1. Non believers-goto eternal hell.
  2. Non-believers with no clear proofs- God tries them before hell or heaven.
  3. Believers-Bad outweigh good deeds-goto hell--punishment first--finally heaven.(mercy may still take precedence)
  4. Believers- Good outweigh bad deeds-Goto heaven.
  5. Believers-rejecting faith/associating partners/suicide/magic-Goto eternal hell."

What if somebody is a non-believer, but his good deeds outweight the bad ones?

I also have a question about "Shirk". A Christian believes in the one God, but doesn't believe in Muhammad. Does that make him "shirk"?
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 20:09
Originally posted by barbar

 
Originally posted by malizai_

Before compounding all the questions, shall we take a measure of what has just been covered.
 
"Many ways"? like which others.
 
The hanbli/shafi etc are from sunnah. So i am really waiting for the 'many' other ways.
 
Hanbali, Shafi, Maliki and Hanafi are considered to be Sunni school of thoughts, prophet way should be one, right?  however they have many diffrences in some details, this is what I mean many ways. Now I'd like to include the Shia school of thoughts. Which one isn't accepted by Allah? as far as I know none of them is against the rules in Quran, as we don't have different versions of Quran. My point is the details that are not mentioned in Quran aren't that important, it is up to the person to follow one of the schools he thought proper or more rewardable, but always keep in mind that other schools aren't rewardless. We know in Quran it is stated that even some of the nonmuslims (People of the books) will be rewarded.
 
The prophet made slight variations in his prayers and each variation is documented and not an innovation, hence a sunnah. So at times he has lengthened his prayer and yet the same prayer he has shortened at other times. All are allowed and accepted. It is a blessing. So STILL there are NO OTHER ways of praying acceptable other than the prophet's.
 
As for the reward, an interpretation of a sunah given that provisions are in place can lead to more than one way of achieving the same goal. Both interpretations are rewardable and the one closer to the original meaning would be more rewardable. Hence their is no ambiguity in status of acts based on difference of opinion. It is a blessing.
 
The problem with your statement i find is the reduction of sunnah to a level lesser than the injunctions contained within the Koran. I think their is a need to elaborate here that the Mutwattar sunnah is fundamental to the pool of Islamic law. I think the misconceptions arise because of the lack of understanding of the gradation of hadith's, as most traditional societies accept what is already prevalent, for good reason ofcourse, but it also means that they take for granted how things come about. Not all hadith form the body of knwoledge that are relied upon for jurisprudence. But it doesn't make the ones that do any Less important. I.e there would be no Islam and Muslims without this basic tenant.
 
Infact i am considering doing a guide to hadith, as it trips a lot people.


Edited by malizai_ - 01-Nov-2006 at 20:11
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To answer Neoptolemos, let me say it this way. First we need to agree on what you mean by 'belive in'. Assuming you mean not to acknowledge him as your spiritual guide, then no it would not be shirk. Worship should be only for God. However, since Muhammad wrote down God's guide book for muslims we are in retrospect abiding by what he represents.
    

Edited by Seko - 01-Nov-2006 at 20:29
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Posts: 2252 		  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 20:31
Originally posted by Neoptolemos

Originally posted by malizai_

  1. Non believers-goto eternal hell.
  2. Non-believers with no clear proofs- God tries them before hell or heaven.
  3. Believers-Bad outweigh good deeds-goto hell--punishment first--finally heaven.(mercy may still take precedence)
  4. Believers- Good outweigh bad deeds-Goto heaven.
  5. Believers-rejecting faith/associating partners/suicide/magic-Goto eternal hell."

What if somebody is a non-believer, but his good deeds outweight the bad ones?

I also have a question about "Shirk". A Christian believes in the one God, but doesn't believe in Muhammad. Does that make him "shirk"?
 
The answer very much depends on the subject being a non-believer to whom "clear proofs" have come or not. If they have and he rejects then it would be case of No.1. If they havent then his situation is at Gods disposal in the hereafter, where his own justness demands of him to try them and presenting them with the merit of the outcome.
 
The shirk of the christian is not the disbelief in mohammed, but the associaton of God with the Son and the holy ghost. Attributing to GOD that which he doesnt calim for himself and attributing to Jesus of GOD's attributes that he doesnt claim for himself.
 
That is the reform of muhammed.
 
AL-IKHLAS (SINCERITY)

112.001
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
PICKTHAL: Say: He is Allah, the One!
SHAKIR: Say: He, Allah, is One.

112.002
YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
PICKTHAL: Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
SHAKIR: Allah is He on Whom all depend.

112.003
YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
PICKTHAL: He begetteth not nor was begotten.
SHAKIR: He begets not, nor is He begotten.

112.004
YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
PICKTHAL: And there is none comparable unto Him.
SHAKIR: And none is like Him.

 
 


Edited by malizai_ - 01-Nov-2006 at 20:48
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Posts: 659 		  Quote Neoptolemos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 20:51
Originally posted by Seko

To answer Neoptolemos, let me say it this way. First we need to agree on what you mean by 'belive in'. Assuming you mean not to acknowledge him as your spiritual guide, then no it would not be shirk. Worship should be only for God. However, since Muhammad wrote down God's guide book for muslims we are in retrospect abiding by what he represents.
By "not believe in" I mean not  to acknowledge him as your spiritual guide, not to consider him a prophet sent by God, and also not believe that the Quran is a Holy Book. In other words I mean to believe in the "Christian God" and not the "Quranic God". (Forgive me if my terminology is incorrect)

Originally posted by malizai_

The answer very much depends on the subject being a non-believer to whom "clear proofs" have come or not. If they have and he rejects then it would be case of No.1. If they havent then his situation is at Gods disposal in the hereafter, where his own justness demands of him to try them and presenting them with the merit of the outcome.
Let me make it more simple: assume that I am an atheist and totally reject the idea of God. On the other hand, I am a good person and make many good deeds (more that bad). Do I have any chance to go to heaven?

EDIT: Just noticed your edited post Malizai.
The shirk of the christian is not the disbelief in mohammed, but the associaton of God with the Son and the holy ghost. Attributing to GOD that which he doesnt calim for himself and attributing to Jesus of GOD's attributes that he doesnt claim for himself.
So, according to Islam, Christians are Shirk because they kind of believe in three Gods? Did I get that right?


Edited by Neoptolemos - 01-Nov-2006 at 20:56
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I think u have complicated it rather than simplifying it. Firstly let me make it clear, i am not GOD's doorman on earth with an invite list.
 
But i can assume that if u r an atheist ur name is not on the list. While u as an atheist shouldnt believe that the list exists in the first place. I am consdiering atheist as a lifestyle choice here.
 
Your statement is not an OR(on the other hand) but an AND statement. U can be an athiest AND a good person with a lot of good deeds.
 
Its like not wanting to die but wanting to goto heaven. As an athiest how the hell do u believe in a heaven and not GOD. I dont know what answer u are looking for. I dont c how i could have been clearer.
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Yes u got it right. The pre-islamic arabs also believed in one god. But took the dieties as intercessors, go betweens(i think) and other cultures take manifestations of GOD's powers as lesser gods.
 
Sorry i had to add the Surah again, because of a pasting problem.
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