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Genghis 
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 Topic: Mexico Threatens to Take the USA Before the UN
Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 01:32 |
Mexico may take fence dispute to U.N.
By JENNY BARCHFIELD, Associated Press WriterMon Oct 9, 4:59 PM ET
Mexico's foreign secretary said Monday the country may take a dispute over U.S. plans to build a fence on the Mexican border to the United Nations.
Luis Ernesto Derbez told reporters in Paris, his first stop on a European tour, that a legal investigation was under way to determine whether Mexico has a case.
The Mexican government last week sent a diplomatic note to Washington criticizing the plan for 700 miles of new fencing along the border. President-elect Felipe Calderon also denounced the plan, but said it was a bilateral issue that should not be put before the international community.
Derbez said Monday after meeting with French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy that it was a "shame" U.S. immigration policy had been used for what he claimed was a short-term political gain in the lead-up to midterm elections in the U.S. in November.
He said he discussed the issue with Douste-Blazy, and planned to bring it up in meetings with his Spanish and Italian counterparts during visits to Madrid and Rome. He vowed to work on the case until the "very last day" of President Vicente Fox's term, which ends Dec. 1.
The U.S. Senate approved the border fence bill last month and President Bush has said he will sign it into law despite last-minute pleas from the Mexican government for a veto.
"What should be constructed is a bridge in relations between the two countries," Derbez said.
I find it outrageous that the Mexican government has the audacity to tell the American government what it can or cannot do on its own territory. America has the right to put a gigantic river of fire or millions of landmines on our southern border if we so desire. I'm sure however this will get nowhere in the UN, the wall's construction is pretty much inevitable now, and anything in the UN would be vetoed by the United States. Whether or not you agree with the construction of the wall, I'm sure most people would agree that any country should be allowed to construct such walls around its territory.
Any other opinions?
Edited by Genghis - 10-Oct-2006 at 01:33
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 01:59 |
Originally posted by Genghis
I find it outrageous that the Mexican government has the audacity
to tell the American government what it can or cannot do on its own
territory. America has the right to put a gigantic river of fire or
millions of landmines on our southern border if we so desire. I'm sure
however this will get nowhere in the UN, the wall's construction is
pretty much inevitable now, and anything in the UN would be vetoed by
the United States. Whether or not you agree with the construction of
the wall, I'm sure most people would agree that any country should be
allowed to construct such walls around its territory.
Any other opinions? |
I don't think walls particularly solve any problems, but I agree
with what you're saying for the most part. If the Mexican government actually tried to
control the flow of illegals into the U.S., they might have some
credibility in telling the U.S. what to do with the whole border issue. Unfortunately for Mexico,
this isn't the case.
Originally posted by Genghis
it was a "shame" U.S. immigration policy had been used for what he
claimed was a short-term political gain in the lead-up to midterm
elections in the U.S. in November |
This is true. The government hasn't done squat to secure our
borders. They are doing this for strictly political reasons. I heard
that they do not even have the funds necessary to build the wall, but
that they are going to pass it anyway (no doubt to show the people how
much they care about our safety  )
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 10-Oct-2006 at 02:01
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 04:20 |
You guys could set up a proper paramilitary border forces. With proper weapons, you know Heavy MG's, choppers, the odd APC. Best benefit, you could give the military training and use them as auxillery miliraty troops in Iraq as well (they could guard convoys, and do other duties to free up soldiers)
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Vivek Sharma
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 06:02 |
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& ground training for another round up in Iran gradually progressing to east & west.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 07:27 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
If the Mexican government actually tried to
control the flow of illegals into the U.S., they might have some
credibility in telling the U.S. what to do with the whole border issue. Unfortunately for Mexico,
this isn't the case.
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In the eyes of both the American and Mexican government, more free
trade will cause a decline in the number of immigrants, and introducing
more free trade is exactly what they are doing. In fact, this was one
of the arguments used for the introduction of NAFTA.
This wall is not going to work anyway. More than half the illegal
immigrants just overstay their visa or enter the US on a different way.
Also the immigrants who do make it into the US, will be less likely to
return.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 08:11 |
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I agree with you on this Genghis, Mexico has no business to tell us what to do with our borders.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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Zagros
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 09:48 |
How ironic... Americans outraged by another country telling them how to run their internal affairs, whilst, at the same time, they invade other countries, fund terrorists, stage coup d'etas and destabilise whole regions simply because the internal policies of their victims have not been and are not compatible with their own interests!!!
The typical and brainless allusion to might being right will shortly follow, no doubt.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 10:39 |
Originally posted by Zagros
How ironic... Americans outraged by another country telling them how to run their internal affairs, whilst, at the same time, they invade other countries, fund terrorists, stage coup d'etas and destabilise whole regions simply because the internal policies of their victims have not been and are not compatible with their own interests!!!
The typical and brainless allusion to might being right will shortly follow, no doubt. |
Zagros,
I feel that I just go around the threads agreeing with you :)
Again, I agree. Americans feel no restraints to tell people what to do, start revolutions, bring total chaos to nations and regions if they so desire.
But no one should ever tell the U.S. what to do.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 10:50 |
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The problem with the wall is that it is a symbol of racism towards Mexico and how the U.S. government will pander to these sentiments for political gain.
Since the wall is going to built anyway, international attention is warranted. The U.S. should be shamed even more for their actions.
The wall is a monument to racism and xenophobia.
It serves no practical purpose. Whole will be made. It will be jumped over or dig under.
Moreover, and this is the problem that Mexico has, Mexico provides the labor that feeds Americans, either in the fields or in restaurants. They clean after Americans, and they watch their children.
Mexico has been asking for a respectful and legal solution to normalize what is a fact. Washington failed to provide one.
Well, don't worry. The president elect of Mexico is an American hand-picked pushover, who will further destroy the Mexican economy via free-trade and send more illegal immigrants to do the grunt work for Americans.
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Genghis
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 11:35 |
Originally posted by Zagros
How ironic... Americans outraged by another country telling them how to run their internal affairs, whilst, at the same time, they invade other countries, fund terrorists, stage coup d'etas and destabilise whole regions simply because the internal policies of their victims have not been and are not compatible with their own interests!!!
The typical and brainless allusion to might being right will shortly follow, no doubt. |
So it's not okay when America tells other countries what to do, but when other countries tell America what to do, it's fine?
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hugoestr
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 13:33 |
Originally posted by Genghis
Originally posted by Zagros
How ironic... Americans outraged by another country telling them how to run their internal affairs, whilst, at the same time, they invade other countries, fund terrorists, stage coup d'etas and destabilise whole regions simply because the internal policies of their victims have not been and are not compatible with their own interests!!!
The typical and brainless allusion to might being right will shortly follow, no doubt. |
So it's not okay when America tells other countries what to do, but when other countries tell America what to do, it's fine? |
No, this is missing the point.
The U.S. will actually mingled in other countries. The U.S. will not only tell other countries what to do, but invade them, assasinate their leaders, organize coups, or guerrillas.
As far as I know, no country really does that to the U.S. So I must respectfully disagree in your claiming that both statements are the same.
What Mexico, and other countries do is to uphold the U.S. to its same ethical standard.
And the U.S. is strong enough to be morally held responsible for its acts, right?
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Genghis
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 16:06 |
It is not unethical to prevent people from violating the laws of a nation.
I also think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the US hasn't meddled in other countries' affairs, but that does not justify their meddling in our affairs unless you're advocating talionic meddling.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 16:13 |
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Each state has the right to formulate immigration policy as it sees
fit. If the USA wants to take extra measures to enforce their policy
then they are free to do so. The nation state is the most effective
form of organising communities at the global level and the USA must
most definitely protect its sovereignty in determining who enters and
leaves the nation.
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Seko
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 16:17 |
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I don't think anyone is snickering at US affairs as much as realizing a few double standards. With great strength comes increased responsibility. Choices that are beneficial to both parties (Mexico-US) involved.
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hugoestr
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 16:28 |
Originally posted by Genghis
It is not unethical to prevent people from violating the laws of a nation.
I also think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the US hasn't meddled in other countries' affairs, but that does not justify their meddling in our affairs unless you're advocating talionic meddling. |
Ghenghis, I understand what you are saying. And you are right: Mexico doesn't have a legal or moral right to stop the U.S.
But Mexico is not going to stop the U.S. It can't do that. And the UN can't do this either. There is no real meddling because it lacks the power to effectively meddle in the U.S.
This is more like diplomatic shaming. And just as the U.S. is in its right to do a wrong, Mexico has the right to point out the wrong to the rest of the world.
This would be the same if Iran erected an anti-American monument. The U.S. can't stop them, but the U.S. has in its right to point out the actions of Iran.
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Seko
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 16:28 |
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Governor Richardson has noticed a problem in his home state. Illegal tarfficking of people, smuggling, destruction of property. He had requested state funds (police) instead of relying on federal help in the form of a border patrol.
Mexico could help, how?
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jayeshks
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 18:21 |
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Political issues aside (as a wall seems inevitable at this point), wasn't there an environmental concern that this artificial barrier will disrupt migratory species that live on both sides of the border at different times of the year? Or has that been resolved somehow?
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Once you relinquish your freedom for the sake of "understood necessity,"...you cede your claim to the truth. - Heda Margolius Kovaly
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JanusRook
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 18:41 |
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Each state has the right to formulate immigration policy as it sees fit. If the USA wants to take extra measures to enforce their policy then they are free to do so.
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Fully agreed, the US has shown what it's policies are and how it intends to enforce them. As to the whole double-standard thing. Yes the US applies a double standard against the world but so what. A nation is an amoral and selfish entity that seeks to progress it's own agendas and to retard anything that goes against their policies. Anyone's personal preferences to how a country should be run should effect the policies of their nation. Everyone has the right to complain about anything but you don't have a right to fault individuals for acts that are beyond their control. Even the leader of a nation never fully controls a nation because as an entity the nation is larger than any individual.
Now as promised I'll go into the sociological issues.
The wall as it is WILL stand as a symbol of racism towards Mexicans in the eyes of Mexicans. However to Americans it will be a symbol of national pride and the protection of the traditional american. Throughout the US's history there has been a problem with immigration. When Irish, Germans, Italians, Poles and Jews arrived they faced stiff discrimination and were the targets of hate rally's and Nativist parties. However these immigrants quickly assimilated into american society. A point I would like to make too is that even though they assimilated they still retained their own cultural heritage but with an american twist such as St. Patrick's Day, Oktoberfest, etc. The reasoning behind this is that such immigrations had spurts and pauses which allowed everyone to "catch up."
What is going on in Mexico that is causing so much strife is that right now in the US there is and has been for the past thirty or so years a continuous immigration of people without a pause. These people have come seeking the same things as other immigrants but find that thanks to their location it is far easier for them to get into the US. Not that I'm belittling anyone's trials and pains to get to the US but a person who crosses a fence and walks for twenty miles is far different from a similar person who sits in a ship's cargo container for weeks without light and clean facilities.
Simply saying the Immigration quotas, though in the past have shown to have been racist, do serve a major purpose. They allow people to assimilate into american culture which as has been shown in the past cultural homogeneity DOES increase national security. I'm not saying that mexican-immigrants are unable to assimilate into american culture, many have successfully especially those whose families have always lived in the territories now held by the US. The problem is with those that do not, and this is part of the societal problem that mexican-immigrants are caught in.
The current Mexican government of course doesn't want immigration to be halted, because one of the major sources of revunue for mexico come from workers living within the US. Also it is against Mexico's prerogatives to have these same workers assimilate because once they do so, they will no longer consider themselves Mexican and thus have no ties to the government.
Another issue is that the Mexican government is notoriously corrupt. And the immigration issue is used to steer peoples attentions away from internal problems. Also sending people who could become political dissidents (i.e. the poor) to the US relieves the Mexican government from having to take responsibility for its actions.
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All in all walls are meant to make people look inward rather than outward. And I think if a wall is built it should do just that. It should make americans look inward to see if such an action is motivated by racism or a desire to aid fellow human beings in their search for success. It should make mexicans look inward to see if they truly want to go to the US to become americans or whether they want to turn Mexico into a prosperous american nation.
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Genghis
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 20:02 |
Originally posted by hugoestr
Originally posted by Genghis
It is not unethical to prevent people from violating the laws of a nation.
I also think you're missing the point of what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the US hasn't meddled in other countries' affairs, but that does not justify their meddling in our affairs unless you're advocating talionic meddling. |
Ghenghis, I understand what you are saying. And you are right: Mexico doesn't have a legal or moral right to stop the U.S.
But Mexico is not going to stop the U.S. It can't do that. And the UN can't do this either. There is no real meddling because it lacks the power to effectively meddle in the U.S.
This is more like diplomatic shaming. And just as the U.S. is in its right to do a wrong, Mexico has the right to point out the wrong to the rest of the world.
This would be the same if Iran erected an anti-American monument. The U.S. can't stop them, but the U.S. has in its right to point out the actions of Iran. |
I would argue that Mexico has no right to even make judgements about our internal affairs, much less try to shame us about them.
Don't try to say I'm being inconsistent either, just because America makes moral judgements about other countries, such as with our idiotic meddling in the Darfur situation, doesn't mean I think that those actions are any less stupid.
Countries should just keep their mouths shut about other people's business unless those policies are threatening.
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vulkan02
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Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 22:39 |
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Its very simple really and it happens today like it has happened throughout history. The US topples goverments, starts wars, starts revolutions because it can and tires to establish its influence in the world so in the future no one can stop her from pursuing her goals. I don't think US would start a war because another nation's immigration policies don't satisfy her so I insist that Mexico has no business to tell this administration what to do with our southern borders. Instead Mexico should be thankful US is doing this and not complain about it being racially motivated. This way people can actually help their own country prosper as Mexico is already a developing country instead of working jobs with horrible conditions in the US and joining rival criminal gangs.
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The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
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